Aer Lingus Cadetship 2018

PlaneLover

Hi folks, anyone heard anything about EI running their Cadetship again this year?

ScotWings

Haven't heard, but if it's like last year, it'll open towards the end of June for applications

stainluss

Bump!
Perhaps they aren't running it this year? Haven't heard anything but am open to correction...

thisisadamh

Still early days I think. In years before last I believe it was September. So could be between now and then.

deaddonkey15

It was opened on the 27th of June last year so keep an eye out next Monday 26th. Cityjet one is open at the moment but there doesn't seem to be much interest in that.

a320famalam

Still nothing on this? No insider info knocking about?

I asked an internal myself a few weeks ago and he told me they were thinking of scrapping the scheme all together because IAG don't like it, although he wasn't sure if it was running one more time of not.

thisisadamh

I am checking the website daily. I really hope its running this year.

adrianooo231

Me too, I am loosing hope that it is running this year.

martinsvi

people on pprune speculate that IAG has pulled the plug on the scheme. No real source has been quoted so take it as you will. However, I'm fairly skeptical about it running this year, it should have been announced already and it looks like FTE is getting busy doing schemes for other airlines.

kona

Id say its a non runner from now on. The current management just want cuts and things as cheap as possible, to hell with quality and experience.

Stovepipe

I was told by one pilot that the scheme, if it goes ahead, will involve an actual cost from the cadet, ie, they will pay for a chunk of the cadetship year or they pay for the Type outright. Previously, they had to show that they had some kind of access to funds. This change is being driven by accountants and does not have the universal love of the pilot body, who want to retain free cadetships.

phonypony

The return of the short-sighted bean-counting...

martinsvi

where one door closes another one opens.. Word on the street is, Titan Airways is about to announce their cadetship next week - it's not going to be as great as Aer Lingus - as in, it will be open only to CPL/ME/IR holders. However, MCC not mandatory (will be provided as part of the course) and type/line training fully bonded

smurfjed

I don't believe that Ryanair ever ran a credit scheme, so what are the benefits that EI see in such a scheme that Ryanair don't?

martinsvi

smurfjed wrote: »

I don't believe that Ryanair ever ran a credit scheme, so what are the benefits that EI see in such a scheme that Ryanair don't?

to speculate - the likes of Ryanair and Easyjet have historically went after rich kids or people who are willing or silly enough to gamble with a lot of their own or borrowed money.. although most of them probably end up as pretty good pilots, I dare to guess, that some of the populous also has a side effect of following the money, as in, at their earliest convenience move on to Middle East/China or wherever they will be paid more.. this leaves the lo-cos scrambling with experienced captain shortages, having to overpay for contractors or going after ACMIs

airlines who breed their own in one way or the other don't seem to be struggling with crewing

deaddonkey15

martinsvi wrote: »

to speculate - the likes of Ryanair and Easyjet have historically went after rich kids or people who are willing or silly enough to gamble with a lot of their own or borrowed money.. although most of them probably end up as pretty good pilots, I dare to guess, that some of the populous also has a side effect of following the money, as in, at their earliest convenience move on to Middle East/China or wherever they will be paid more.. this leaves the lo-cos scrambling with experienced captain shortages, having to overpay for contractors or going after ACMIs

airlines who breed their own in one way or the other don't seem to be struggling with crewing

Any evidence for this?

martinsvi

deaddonkey15 wrote: »

Any evidence for this?

I'm not sure what you mean? Ryanair charge 30k for type rating and they will not pay you until your safety pilot is released (effectively you must be able to survive for 6 months doing job without a pay), easyJet only considers CTC/CAE/FTE graduates who can afford to pay some 20-30k extra on the same CPL/ME/IR everyone else is getting.. is this news to you? These are the very same airlines complaining about crew shortages, you want evidence - why dont you visit your favorite pilot recruitment website and have a look on the vacancies..

deaddonkey15

martinsvi wrote: »

I'm not sure what you mean? Ryanair charge 30k for type rating and they will not pay you until your safety pilot is released (effectively you must be able to survive for 6 months doing job without a pay), easyJet only considers CTC/CAE/FTE graduates who can afford to pay some 20-30k extra on the same CPL/ME/IR everyone else is getting.. is this news to you? These are the very same airlines complaining about crew shortages, you want evidence - why dont you visit your favorite pilot recruitment website and have a look on the vacancies..

No, it's not news to me. But it certainly doesn't suggest to me that these airlines are only interested in "rich kids" or "silly" people who don't get cadetships and have to fund their own training.

Locker10a

deaddonkey15 wrote: »

martinsvi wrote: »

I'm not sure what you mean? Ryanair charge 30k for type rating and they will not pay you until your safety pilot is released (effectively you must be able to survive for 6 months doing job without a pay), easyJet only considers CTC/CAE/FTE graduates who can afford to pay some 20-30k extra on the same CPL/ME/IR everyone else is getting.. is this news to you? These are the very same airlines complaining about crew shortages, you want evidence - why dont you visit your favorite pilot recruitment website and have a look on the vacancies..

No, it's not news to me. But it certainly doesn't suggest to me that these airlines are only interested in "rich kids" or "silly" people who don't get cadetships and have to fund their own training.

I think his point is, that's who they are initially interested in as it mean virtually no cost for them and they still get pilots = Tick box.
Also valid is the point on crew shortage in some of these companies. It's true, I have seen multiple pilots both FO and CPT leave for legacy carriers, Middle East etc. Of course sometimes people just change jobs, that's normal, but there seems to be a high turnover. I'm not insisting these are absolutely linked to one another, just expressing that the point made seem to be valid in my experience.

martinsvi

deaddonkey15 wrote: »

No, it's not news to me. But it certainly doesn't suggest to me that these airlines are only interested in "rich kids" or "silly" people who don't get cadetships and have to fund their own training.

let me rephrase that - as Locker10a pointed out, these airlines are interested keeping their cost to the minimum, which then leads to only wealthy people or people who take out loans getting the jobs... which is fair enough. However the silly bit is when you are working for the company getting paid very little or nothing at all and you have a massive loan to pay back. I think things have improved slightly with industry picking up, but some 3-4 years ago it was not uncommon for crews based in seasonal bases to fly very little in winter which then led to very small incomes not really covering your monthly payments

I don't think that all airlines should run fully paid cadetships, I think there are some pitfalls associated with them also. However I think it should be the industry norm for the airline to provide a fully bonded TR and to start paying since day one for individuals who have self funded their CPL/ME/IR

martinsvi

just to be perfectly clear, there are a lot of guys and gals who have spent big bucks to get where they are and I have my full respect to them. It's very inspiring to see people who have put everything forward their dream and things have worked out. But it is a massive gamble after all as things don't always work out and you wouldn't want to be stuck with huge loans and no job. That's all I wanted to say really. With any luck, I'll probably be joining these gamblers myself in some time next year

Locker10a

martinsvi wrote: »

deaddonkey15 wrote: »

No, it's not news to me. But it certainly doesn't suggest to me that these airlines are only interested in "rich kids" or "silly" people who don't get cadetships and have to fund their own training.

let me rephrase that - as Locker10a pointed out, these airlines are interested keeping their cost to the minimum, which then leads to only wealthy people or people who take out loans getting the jobs... which is fair enough. However the silly bit is when you are working for the company getting paid very little or nothing at all and you have a massive loan to pay back. I think things have improved slightly with industry picking up, but some 3-4 years ago it was not uncommon for crews based in seasonal bases to fly very little in winter which then led to very small incomes not really covering your monthly payments

I don't think that all airlines should run fully paid cadetships, I think there are some pitfalls associated with them also. However I think it should be the industry norm for the airline to provide a fully bonded TR and to start paying since day one for individuals who have self funded their CPL/ME/IR

This problem became a union issue in Easyjet and an agreement was reached where cadedts, or new entrant junior FOs, who were bonded and had huge loan repayments would have a minimum monthly pay, even if their roster meant they wouldn't earn that( this was a problem in winter). If you weren't in an airline who had such an agreement you'd be screwed in winter, and most guys were turning to mammy and daddy to keep up the loan repayments during winter months.

deaddonkey15

martinsvi wrote: »

just to be perfectly clear, there are a lot of guys and gals who have spent big bucks to get where they are and I have my full respect to them. It's very inspiring to see people who have put everything forward their dream and things have worked out. But it is a massive gamble after all as things don't always work out and you wouldn't want to be stuck with huge loans and no job. That's all I wanted to say really. With any luck, I'll probably be joining these gamblers myself in some time next year

You're initial post sounded as though you regarded these people to be either rich kids, or silly with their money. I think Ryanair, to their credit, seem to offer a fair chance to anyone who meets the minimum requirements regarding licenses/ratings and ATPL passes. A few legacy carriers could take a leaf out of their book in that respect. They've recently launched a bonded APC program too.

martinsvi

deaddonkey15 wrote: »

You're initial post sounded as though you regarded these people to be either rich kids, or silly with their money. I think Ryanair, to their credit, seem to offer a fair chance to anyone who meets the minimum requirements regarding licenses/ratings and ATPL passes. A few legacy carriers could take a leaf out of their book in that respect. They've recently launched a bonded APC program too.

eh, I know.. I'm not good with words.. but you do have to have a significantly larger financial cushion if you want to go with Ryanair, than for example, the likes of Titan or Thomas Cook, who will bond you and pay from the day 1.

Speaking of Ryanair's APC programme, any more info on the Ts & Cs? Haven't heard much about it since the initial announcement on Mentours youtube channel

CoisFharraige

martinsvi wrote: »

eh, I know.. I'm not good with words.. but you do have to have a significantly larger financial cushion if you want to go with Ryanair, than for example, the likes of Titan or Thomas Cook, who will bond you and pay from the day 1.

Speaking of Ryanair's APC programme, any more info on the Ts & Cs? Haven't heard much about it since the initial announcement on Mentours youtube channel

A 3 year initial contract as a contractor (with the one and only world renowned McGinley contract [/sarcasm] - have fun living during the winter months in Eastern Europe with no income and being called by crewing at 3am asking you to do another off day and face the consequences if you elect not to), and offer of a 6 year bond thereafter.
€5k to be paid initially when you start on the APC
if you leave them early (150 crew left Stansted last month, take from that what you will), you'll pay: €20k after 4 yrs, 14k for 5 and if you leave in the 6th you'll have €8k to repay.
A great way to get into the industry and become another carrot chasing cadet

martinsvi

CoisFharraige wrote: »

A 3 year initial contract as a contractor (with the one and only world renowned McGinley contract [/sarcasm] - have fun living during the winter months in Eastern Europe with no income and being called by your base captain at 3am asking you to do another off day and face the consequences if you elect not to), and offer of a 6 year bond thereafter.
€5k to be paid initially when you start on the APC
if you leave them early (150 crew left Stansted last month, take from that what you will), you'll pay: €20k after 4 yrs, 14k for 5 and if you leave in the 6th you'll have €8k to repay.
A great way to get into the industry and become another carrot chasing cadet

may not be great for Irish, but if you are from Eastern Europe originally, this could be a sweet deal. It is also worth noting that just 3-4 years ago many pilots from Western Europe had to go to Africa/South East Asia to kick start their careers working in far less glamours circumstances..

Stovepipe

A 6 year bond??!! you'd be an idiot to do that. is it even legal to bond anyone who has paid for their Type?

CoisFharraige

Stovepipe wrote: »

A 6 year bond??!! you'd be an idiot to do that. is it even legal to bond anyone who has paid for their Type?

It's Ryanair everything is legal. Seriously though, yes it is.

kona

Some of the ****e companies expected from staff is a absolute joke these days. Whats nearly even worse is people signing up for it!

deaddonkey15

kona wrote: »

Some of the ****e companies expected from staff is a absolute joke these days. Whats nearly even worse is people signing up for it!

Unfortunately there aren't too many other opportunities for low hour pilots in Europe.

smurfjed

Don't EI bond their cadets ?
Having seen this from the other side, I don't have issues with an airline bonding me for training costs, around here it's €50,000 from your salary over a 1 year period, it's repaid to you 2 years after you are released to the line.

kona

deaddonkey15 wrote: »

Unfortunately there aren't too many other opportunities for low hour pilots in Europe.

From what i hear there is a shortage of qualified suitable pilots.
The erosion of employee terms is concerning, im not just talking about pilots here either!

martinsvi

Stovepipe wrote: »

A 6 year bond??!! you'd be an idiot to do that. is it even legal to bond anyone who has paid for their Type?

the essence here is that you haven't really paid for the type, you just pay 5 grand to do their MCC + TR+ LT and off you go.. its a great step away from cadets having to cough up 30k for type rating + MCC. The deals you would have to do with your bank wouldn't be any less harsh for a 35k loan

deaddonkey15

kona wrote: »

From what i hear there is a shortage of qualified suitable pilots.
The erosion of employee terms is concerning, im not just talking about pilots here either!

My understanding is it's a shortage of good pilots. I've heard around half of applicants to Ryanair fail their assessments. I think that is why they have launched this new APC program. It's probably why more airlines are running MPL schemes now as well so a trainee pilot is more "airline ready". Unfortunately this means they can charge what they want. Some of the recent MPL schemes at CTC/L3 are incredibly expensive.

It's quite bizarre that pilots, particularly low hour pilots and trainee pilots are amongst the most exploited people in the industry whilst also being amongst the most important, especially if there really is a shortage of suitable pilots in an era where many major airlines are expanding. Unfortunately, unless thousands of aspiring pilots around Europe collectively decide to not pay extortionate prices to flight schools and accept poor terms and conditions upon initial employment then the likes of Ryanair, Easyjet, CTC etc. can continue to do and charge what they want.

Dingle_berry

deaddonkey15 wrote: »

My understanding is it's a shortage of good pilots. I've heard around half of applicants to Ryanair fail their assessments. I think that is why they have launched this new APC program. It's probably why more airlines are running MPL schemes now as well so a trainee pilot is more "airline ready". Unfortunately this means they can charge what they want. Some of the recent MPL schemes at CTC/L3 are incredibly expensive.

It's quite bizarre that pilots, particularly low hour pilots and trainee pilots are amongst the most exploited people in the industry whilst also being amongst the most important, especially if there really is a shortage of suitable pilots in an era where many major airlines are expanding. Unfortunately, unless thousands of aspiring pilots around Europe collectively decide to not pay extortionate prices to flight schools and accept poor terms and conditions upon initial employment then the likes of Ryanair, Easyjet, CTC etc. can continue to do and charge what they want.

What is a good/suitable pilot? To get to that stage they have passed the knowledge and skills tests, as well as medical. So what's missing?

deaddonkey15

Dingle_berry wrote: »

What is a good/suitable pilot? To get to that stage they have passed the knowledge and skills tests, as well as medical. So what's missing?

https://youtu.be/xdY0CMVfMxs?t=2m40s

According to the above, it's what is being learned (or not being learned) from the MCC course which to me would suggest teamwork/communications/interpersonal skills and implementation of SOPs. Quite a big focus on that in airline interviews, especially for cadet schemes.

Negative_G

Dingle_berry wrote: »

What is a good/suitable pilot? To get to that stage they have passed the knowledge and skills tests, as well as medical. So what's missing?

If you hang around this forum long enough you'll realise that for certain posters, none of these things matter for some applicants provided they are well connected in Aer Lingus for example.

kona

Negative_G wrote: »

If you hang around this forum long enough you'll realise that for certain posters, none of these things matter for some applicants provided they are well connected in Aer Lingus for example.

Nonsense.

Negative_G

kona wrote: »

Nonsense.

Excellent rebuttal.

Take a look back through any of the last few Aer Lingus Cadetship threads and you'll see numerous claims of nepotism.

It was so bad in one thread that someone believed that if you weren't from South Dublin, your chances were diminished significantly.

Dingle_berry

Negative_G wrote: »

If you hang around this forum long enough you'll realise that for certain posters, none of these things matter for some applicants provided they are well connected in Aer Lingus for example.

Having a class 1 medical and/or ATPLs don't matter to AerLingus once your Daddy is a pilot too? Eh... would the IAA and other authorities not take issue with unqualified pilots flying commercially?

Negative_G

Dingle_berry wrote: »

Having a class 1 medical and/or ATPLs don't matter to AerLingus once your Daddy is a pilot too? Eh... would the IAA and other authorities not take issue with unqualified pilots flying commercially?

I think there may be crossed wires here.

The point I was making is that there is a recurring theme when discussing EI cadet competitions here that nepotism is rife and that unless you have connections, you are unlikely to be chosen.

Of course this is all just conjecture.

Uncle Mclovin

Vacancy Details (via TheJournal.ie) - https://aerlingus.recruitment.northgatearinso.com/lgrl/pages/vacancy.jsf?latest=01001404

Sullysark

I assume there's little to no chance of the cadet scheme this year then recruiting that many pilots. Assuming some will also join from FTE Jerez who are there at present + their own cadet scheme.

Tenger

Negative_G wrote: »

..........
The point I was making is that there is a recurring theme when discussing EI cadet competitions here that nepotism is rife and that unless you have connections, you are unlikely to be chosen.

Of course this is all just conjecture.

The same pattern can be found in other profession. Doctors and teaching for example.
If a kid grows up absorbing the thought process and ethos of their parents profession then they will always have a head start over someone trying to enter the profession without family knowledge.

The perceived South Dublin 'bias' I believe is a function of socio-economic background.
Personally in my time in EI in the early 2000's I found North Co. Dublin to be more represented. Could well be different now though.

EDIT; just to give an example. I applied to the EI cadetships in the late 90's. I'm not from Dublin, I knew no pilots. I was however told about a guy from where I lived who was an EI pilot. So I cold called him and he was nice enough to give me an hour or two of his time to chat to me about the job.
Compare that level of prep to someone who see's and talk's to a pilot everyday of their lives.

Negative_G

Tenger wrote: »

The same pattern can be found in other profession. Doctors and teaching for example.
If a kid grows up absorbing the thought process and ethos of their parents profession then they will always have a head start over someone trying to enter the profession without family knowledge.
The South Dublin 'bias' is a function of socio-economic background.
Personally in my time in EI in the early 2000's I found North Co. Dublin to be more represented. Could well be different now though.

Agreed.

It gets rather tiring seeing the nepotism card whipped out at every opportunity though.

1123heavy

I think it's fair to say there is no 2018 Aer Lingus cadet programme.

Anyway BA have opened theirs ... not fully funded though as it used to be. I have a strong hunch IAG have pulled the plug on all funded cadet programmes for their airlines and they were given the option to open a self sponsored one, BA went down that route but perhaps Aer Lingus said they'd rather not run one than demand 100k from their cadets?

https://jobs.ba.com/jobs/futurepilot/

deaddonkey15

1123heavy wrote: »

I think it's fair to say there is no 2018 Aer Lingus cadet programme.

Disappointing. Their presence at Pilot Careers Live in March suggested that there would be.

Bussywussy

I heard the cadetship is gone for the foreseeable future

colbarr

Bussywussy wrote: »

I heard the cadetship is gone for the foreseeable future

Many thanks for your email.

We are currently unsure of when the next Cadetship Programme will be going ahead at Aer Lingus.

Please monitor the Aer Lingus careers website https://www.aerlingus.com/careers/

Best Regards,

The Aer Lingus Recruitment Team

The reply to my email asking about the cadetship back in July.

1123heavy

I must commend Aer Lingus on this.

They would rather not run it than charge people 100k ... that makes me have an awful lot of respect for them to be fair.

The meaning of a cadetship has changed a lot for most, it's good that at least one crowd aren't willing to join the race to the bottom.

Sullysark

1123heavy wrote: »

I must commend Aer Lingus on this.

They would rather not run it than charge people 100k ... that makes me have an awful lot of respect for them to be fair.

The meaning of a cadetship has changed a lot for most, it's good that at least one crowd aren't willing to join the race to the bottom.

Instead they'll just recruit Irish cadets from the flight school their current cadets are at. There isn't much of a difference.