Why are Irish channels not FTA on satellite ?

Fr Tod Umptious

It's something I have always wondered

Why are Irish stations not FTA on Satellite like UK ones are ?

Or are they but you need to point your dish in a different direction ?

It would make things so much easier for someone trying to ditch Sky and get all Irish and UK FTA channels i.e only a sat receiver required.

No messing with combo boxes, antennas etc etc.

Is there a simple answer based on the history and evolution of satellite TV services ?

Fr Tod Umptious

Ok I may have found the answer in Wikipedia

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saorsat

Broadcasting the channels unencrypted from the Astra 2 satellites at 28? East was not considered an option due to its large footprint covering the UK, France and many other countries. Irish broadcasters acquire rights on the basis that programming is broadcast to Irish audiences (i.e some 4.5 million people) and not to approx 100 million people within the Astra footprint. The Board of RT? approved the Saorsat approach developed by RT?NL from early 2010 to enable the 1-2% of Irish households not covered by Saorview to access free-to-air digital television services.

Johnboy1951

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

Ok I may have found the answer in Wikipedia

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saorsat

You should note that not all the channels carried on Saorview are available on Saorsat.
So a terrestrial aerial is preferred by most.

Fr Tod Umptious

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

You should note that not all the channels carried on Saorview are available on Saorsat.
So a terrestrial aerial is preferred by most.

Yes I'm aware of that

But my question was more of why Irish channels never ended up on the regular FTA satellite like the BBC, ITV did and the hundreds of other FTA channels you get ?

And according to Wikipedia it's a rights thing, i.e they cannot be accessible beyond geographical Ireland.

Is that correct

Ger Roe

/Quote : "my question was more of why Irish channels never ended up on the regular FTA satellite like the BBC, ITV did and the hundreds of other FTA channels you get ? And according to Wikipedia it's a rights thing, i.e they cannot be accessible beyond geographical Ireland. Is that correct?"

Yes, and also that the original agreement between RTE and Sky was structured to allow sky exclusive carriage (subscription based) in exchange for providing RTE with a no cost (to them) satellite distribution option. In hindsight it was not the best decision ever made, but it was back in the early days when most people, thought that satellite tv was a subscription only option and that Sky was the only possible carrier.

We have moved on a lot since then, but the deal still stands - add the distribution rights issue and you can then see why the overly complicated Saorsat service was the only option for an FTA Satellite service from RTE.

When you asked if there was a simple explanation as to why RTE is not freely available on 28.2E, the simple answer is that there isn't - it's an original historical sticking plaster solution that has remained in place, combined with an international distribution rights issue - or more to the point... the costs thereof.

BBC, ITV and CH4 also get UK only rights for various things yet they are transmitted around Europe though. You will even notice the sky frequency of some channels like E4 and Ch4 doesn't transmit some shows which are available on the FTA version of the channel.

Gerry Wicklow

The latest generation of satellites also means that some of the ITV etc channels are now on spot beams which more or less only serve the UK. It's a convenient quirk of geography that the island of Ireland fits inside the UK spot beam.

Gerry Wicklow

Gerry Wicklow wrote: »

The latest generation of satellites also means that some of the ITV etc channels are now on spot beams which more or less only serve the UK. It's a convenient quirk of geography that the island of Ireland fits inside the UK spot beam.

Luckily the fact they need to cover NI also will mean Ireland is almost guaranteed to get even narrow beam stuff.

Gerry Wicklow

Many UK ex-pats lost their home channels in France and Spain when the new birds flew. Other needed a serious dish upgrade to continue watching.

The Cush

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

It's something I have always wondered

Why are Irish stations not FTA on Satellite like UK ones are ?

Or are they but you need to point your dish in a different direction ?

It would make things so much easier for someone trying to ditch Sky and get all Irish and UK FTA channels i.e only a sat receiver required.

No messing with combo boxes, antennas etc etc.

Is there a simple answer based on the history and evolution of satellite TV services ?

Asked many times here over the years, this is the answer from then RTÉ CFO Conor Hayes back in 2010 to an Oireachtas Committee

Mr. Conor Hayes: ...
Another innovation by RTE is promotion of its satellite option, Saorsat. Some members of the committee will be familiar with the equivalent UK service, Freesat. The BBC, ITV and a number of other companies have put their services on one of the wideband Astra satellites. The services are broadcast unencrypted, or “in the clear” as we call it. The trouble with those wideband satellites is that they have a very big footprint. If RTE were to be put up on a wideband satellite, its services would be in the clear to the UK, France, Holland and many other countries. One might ask why that should not be done, to which I would respond that we do not have the resources to purchase the rights to enable us to broadcast into those countries. We buy programming that allows us to broadcast to 4.5 million people. We do not have the money to broadcast to 100 million people. Therefore, the option taken by the BBC when Freesat was launched is not available to us.
...
It [Saorsat] will cost us approximately €1.5 million per year. We can manage it. As other channels come on board, part of the cost will be defrayed. In light of the security this option provides and the ability to supply to the 2% of the population who do not currently receive public service television, the cost can be adequately justified. We might have a different take on the situation were the cost €20 million or €25 million, but the actual amount is appropriate and reasonable.

vietnow

Hi.

I'm not sure if this is the right area to post but I am looking for some information.

I have recently resurrected an old sky HD box. The card I am using has long been cancelled. I was expecting to use it to just receive the free to air channels itv, BBC etc. Actually to be honest I am hoping to use it to unlock my free eir sports channels i got when I purchased eir broadband.

But, to my surprise I discovered that the Irish channels were working. Rte one hd, rte 2 hd, etc.

As far as I am aware they should not have worked. My satellite is pointed at 28.2 east and these channels need a subscription?

Anyway, these channels stopped working after a while. I decided to ring sky customer care and ask why they WERE working but are NOT working presently.

The girl I spoke to didn't seem to understand and insisted that the channels were free to air and should be working.

Can anyone here with some knowledge shed some light on the subject for me?

The box I am using is a sky+ HD box with 3d anytime+ written on the front

STB.

The Irish channels do not work without an active subscription. They shouldnt have worked at all. They are not FTA.

There must be a card in that box. You can use that to watch the Eir/Bt Channels, but you will have to contact Eir to get it activated (you do not have to be an active subscriber to Sky).

https://subscribe.eirsport.ie/eircustomer

Enter the box details etc to activate it.

vietnow

Thank you for the reply stb.

I am awaiting my eir account activation and then I am going to try that.

I suspected the subscription was necessary. It was just frustrating to be handed a wee surprise gift and then have it taken away. Can't understand why it ever worked? I also can't understand why a sky rep has told me that it was free to air. Surely they should have a little education before being thrown on the end of a helpline. She actually kept asking me what channel I was talking about when I mentioned my satellite was pointed at astra 28.2 east.

Johnboy1951

vietnow wrote: »

Thank you for the reply stb.

I am awaiting my eir account activation and then I am going to try that.

I suspected the subscription was necessary. It was just frustrating to be handed a wee surprise gift and then have it taken away. Can't understand why it ever worked? I also can't understand why a sky rep has told me that it was free to air. Surely they should have a little education before being thrown on the end of a helpline. She actually kept asking me what channel I was talking about when I mentioned my satellite was pointed at astra 28.2 east.

The most likely reason it worked for a short time is that the box has remained unplugged since the card was cancelled, so the card itself never got the signal to die. It did so after you used it.

Eir sports will activate on that card without issue.

muffler

vietnow wrote: »

Can't understand why it ever worked? I also can't understand why a sky rep has told me that it was free to air. Surely they should have a little education before being thrown on the end of a helpline. She actually kept asking me what channel I was talking about when I mentioned my satellite was pointed at astra 28.2 east.

I'm not trying to be nasty about this but if you're not a Sky subscriber I'm surprised they even talked to you about this issue.

dubrov

It would be very easy to put Rte on the sane satellite as the UK channels. Licencing issues could be addressed by encrypting the channels and issuing of decoding cards(like sky) linked to the purchase of a TV licence.

I'm guessing RTE fear that making it too easy to switch between uk and irish channels might cost them market share. That may have been true in the past but I'd say it is costing them market share now. A lot of people use the UK channels and don't bother switching to Saorview unless there is something specify they want to watch.

decor58

dubrov wrote:

It would be very easy to put Rte on the sane satellite as the UK channels. Licencing issues could be addressed by encrypting the channels and issuing of decoding cards(like sky) linked to the purchase of a TV licence.

I thought of that some time ago but that would only work if 1) all fta users were using a Sky box, 2) sky were prepared to cooperate, 3) the software was available to sky and non sky receiver's.
It would make sense of sorts to have all Saorview delivered over satellite even if from different satellites. It would mean 1 receiver, 1 satellite transmission instead of transmitters around the country but then there is the issue of control.

Johnboy1951

dubrov wrote: »

It would be very easy to put Rte on the sane satellite as the UK channels. Licencing issues could be addressed by encrypting the channels and issuing of decoding cards(like sky) linked to the purchase of a TV licence.

Easy, sure.
Costly, certainly.
Costs of encryption; card creation and issuing and control etc etc. as well as the cost of carriage on the satellite.
People can now receive the Irish channels with just a €20 aerial and a TV.
Your suggestion would introduce lots of complications that are unnecessary and unneeded.

I'm guessing RTE fear that making it too easy to switch between uk and irish channels might cost them market share. That may have been true in the past but I'd say it is costing them market share now. A lot of people use the UK channels and don't bother switching to Saorview unless there is something specify they want to watch.

A lot of people also do not use Sky STBs for FTA TV and are not confined to Sky's version of a default channel list without a subscription. (That Sky box is ridiculously bad for FTA use)
Most I know who have the choice put the Irish channels at the top of their channel listing.

dubrov

You don't need a sky box to use a decoder card. Almost all generic satellite receivers can handle it.

Sky don't need to be involved at all but could be provided with the deception keys providing they were willing to make a contribution towards them (maybe build the licence fee into their subscription fee).

Id say RTE have missed the boat on this by about 15 years. IPTV will take over in the next 5 years or so at which point they will probably become irrelevant

Johnboy1951

dubrov wrote: »

You don't need a sky box to use a decoder card. Almost all generic satellite receivers can handle it.

Sky don't need to be involved at all but could be provided with the deception keys providing they were willing to make a contribution towards them (maybe build the licence fee into their subscription fee).

Id say RTE have missed the boat on this by about 15 years. IPTV will take over in the next 5 years or so at which point they will probably become irrelevant

Even better ...... we don't need a decoder card at all now.

lertsnim

dubrov wrote: »

IPTV will take over in the next 5 years or so at which point they will probably become irrelevant

Why do Sky bother with SkyQ and Freesat bother at all if they will be irrelevant in 5 years. I hope they read your post so that they stop investing.

dubrov

lertsnim wrote:

Why do Sky bother with SkyQ and Freesat bother at all if they will be irrelevant in 5 years. I hope they read your post so that they stop investing.

Eh all the on-demand stuff with Sky and Freesat is already over the internet. Sky also have NowTV which provides sky channels via iptv.

So Sky are ready but the market will be more open so can't see them maintaining the same market share or charging what they do now for mostly free channels

lertsnim

dubrov wrote: »

Eh all the on-demand stuff with Sky and Freesat is already over the internet. Sky also have NowTV which provides sky channels via iptv.

So Sky are ready but the market will be more open so can't see them maintaining the same market share or charging what they do now for mostly free channels

Nobody was on about on demand. In 5 years iptv will take over and satellite TV will be irrelevant was the claim. Realistically you know that's bollocks.

STB.

dubrov wrote: »

It would be very easy to put Rte on the sane satellite as the UK channels. Licencing issues could be addressed by encrypting the channels and issuing of decoding cards(like sky) linked to the purchase of a TV licence.

I'm guessing RTE fear that making it too easy to switch between uk and irish channels might cost them market share. That may have been true in the past but I'd say it is costing them market share now. A lot of people use the UK channels and don't bother switching to Saorview unless there is something specify they want to watch.

It wouldn't actually.

Why would RTE put themselves in the hands of Sky. For a start its not RTE's decision, its the decision of the Communications Minister. The state broadcast service will never be in the control of another organization, especially a foreign one.

TP space on 28.2 is dear. Its not noticeable when Sky have to pay for it. That's made available to them under the must offer rule. Its cost neutral the last time I checked, but its content that Sky should really be paying for.

Market share. People don't switch from the Uk Channels argument. If that were true RTE wouldn't have the largest market share (by a long way).

Satellite is not a stand alone replacement for the national Tv service. Complimentary yes.

dubrov

In fairness no one knows. In demand and live tv are merging. Even with Sky you flick to a Sky movie channel and it offers to restart the film. Channel going is dying out.

The technology and infrastructure are already here for iptv. I can see it taking over soon. Maybe 5 years is too short an estimate but i can't see why anyone would bother with satellite once they can get everything they need on iptv

dubrov

STB. wrote:

Why would RTE put themselves in the hands of Sky. For a start its not RTE's decision, its the decision of the Communications Minister. The state broadcast service will never be in the control of another organization, especially a foreign one.

I could be corrected but I don't think Sky own the satellite. They are also paying for carraige of their encrypted channels.

I'd say it is not cheap but neither is the Saorsat satellite equivalent dedicated to Ireland only

Del2005

dubrov wrote: »

In fairness no one knows. In demand and live tv are merging. Even with Sky you flick to a Sky movie channel Ann's it offers to restart the film. Channel going is dying out.

The technology and infrastructure are already here for iptv. I can see it taking over soon. Maybe 5 years is too short an estimate but i can't see why anyone would bother with satellite once they can get everything they need on iptv

I'd say that in 5 years TV as we know it will be gone. The idea of having to sit down at a specific time to watch a program is coming to an end, which is why they are adding non TVs to the TV licence.

Gerry Wicklow

Del2005 wrote: »

I'd say that in 5 years TV as we know it will be gone. The idea of having to sit down at a specific time to watch a program is coming to an end, which is why they are adding non TVs to the TV licence.

And doing away with TV spectrum so people can watch HD? on their 5" screens instead :eek:

Del2005

Gerry Wicklow wrote: »

And doing away with TV spectrum so people can watch HD? on their 5" screens instead :eek:

Nah, it's 4k on 5" screens now.

lertsnim

Deedsie wrote: »

You would want to be fairly confident about the quality of your broadband etc

And that is why IPTV isn't going to be the norm for a long time yet.

Johnboy1951

lertsnim wrote: »

And that is why IPTV isn't going to be the norm for a long time yet.

Even with decent broadband you would get hit with the cap/FUP that we see presently.

In any case I do not want to change to IPTV .... the Satellite is much better IMO.

What broadband would be needed for 5 people in the household watching HD TV? ...... none if you have a Satellite

ED E

lertsnim wrote: »

And that is why IPTV isn't going to be the norm for a long time yet.

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

Even with decent broadband you would get hit with the cap/FUP that we see presently.

In any case I do not want to change to IPTV .... the Satellite is much better IMO.

What broadband would be needed for 5 people in the household watching HD TV? ...... none if you have a Satellite

Its called multicast, you can google it. For live content there's no traffic counted against caps.

GPON and Docsis3.1 will allow IPTV to dominate within 5-7. Sky? IPTV. VM? IPTV. Eir? IPTV. Vod? IPTV.

lertsnim

Every home in the whole of the UK and Ireland will have access to that?

Johnboy1951

ED E wrote: »

Its called multicast, you can google it. For live content there's no traffic counted against caps.

Yeah?
I can get FTA Satellite equivalent TV via broadband without the ISP counting it against the broadband cap?

GPON and Docsis3.1 will allow IPTV to dominate within 5-7. Sky? IPTV. VM? IPTV. Eir? IPTV. Vod? IPTV.

So what you imply is that all FTA TV will disappear and will only be available via a subscription to some provider?
I am fairly sure the likes of Sky, VM, Eir and others will not provide such a service without subscription.

STB.

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

Yeah?
So what you imply is that all FTA TV will disappear and will only be available via a subscription to some provider?
I am fairly sure the likes of Sky, VM, Eir and others will not provide such a service without subscription.

Its for this reason that those predicting the implementation of IPTV as a primary delivery method for Irish TV within 5 years is complete nonsense.

In 10 years it may be looked at closer, but as it is the legislation is written that RTE must provide the services FTA. Same with TG4/3 etc.

DVB-T will remain in the mean time.

dubrov

Bandwidth already isn't an issue in populated areas. Virgin's base package is 240Mbps with 500GB fair usage. This would be more than enough to run multiple TVs.

I think IPTV will allow TV to be more customisable.
As in, you would have a set top box and subscribe to the services you wish to use.
Multiple IPTV services could be accessed on a single set top box.
RTE's service would be free to subscribe to and would probably have some sort of geo-lock applied.
I can see broadband providers bundling IPTV as a free addon.

DVB-T will still remain for years after IPTV takes over but usage will decline rapidly.

ED E

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

So what you imply is that all FTA TV will disappear and will only be available via a subscription to some provider?
I am fairly sure the likes of Sky, VM, Eir and others will not provide such a service without subscription.

Nope, never said that. Countering "IPTV isn't going to be the norm for a long time yet."

Sats will have their place but RF spectrum is limited and becoming more and more scarce. TV broadcasts wont be allocated double or triple the current band plan to account for increased bitrates and res's. The growth will be over the fixed line networks while FTA slowly goes the way of Analogue bcasts.

Update:
The real reason why IPTV matters is ads. An FTA box can, but doesnt have to, be online. All IPTV boxes are online in their nature. That means the networks can report exact watch times. Watch times = money.

The Cush

Traditional broadcast TV will be around for many years to come, terrestrial TV has been guaranteed its remaining spectrum until at least the end of 2030 under new legislation.

But, I believe we are at the beginning of a transition to a IP delivered future. We see OTT services like Saorview Connect, Freeview Play arriving for non-linear TV/services from linear TV providers.

Sky recently announcing its SkyQ service will be available without a dish from next year but way too early for a complete transition

“The debate over whether satellite will be replaced by TV over broadband (both IPTV and OTT) is being put too crudely. We have explained that, for the foreseeable future, satellite will remain the most cost efficient & practical means to deliver mass reach channels of over 2 million simultaneous viewers. Major pay-TV platforms will not be turning off satellite to move to DSL in the near, or even mid-term. But, the barriers to DSL delivery: sufficient bandwith in local access and congestion in core networks, are falling. Falling costs and rising bandwith is making it more viable for smaller channels to shift to IP, with the customer benefits of interactivity which satellite cannot deliver. This move is a landmark – the first time Sky has offered a full service, equivalent to the cable/sat offer, over terrestrial.”

Johnboy1951

“The debate over whether satellite will be replaced by TV over broadband (both IPTV and OTT) is being put too crudely. We have explained that, for the foreseeable future, satellite will remain the most cost efficient & practical means to deliver mass reach channels of over 2 million simultaneous viewers. Major pay-TV platforms will not be turning off satellite to move to DSL in the near, or even mid-term. But, the barriers to DSL delivery: sufficient bandwith in local access and congestion in core networks, are falling. Falling costs and rising bandwith is making it more viable for smaller channels to shift to IP, with the customer benefits of interactivity which satellite cannot deliver. This move is a landmark – the first time Sky has offered a full service, equivalent to the cable/sat offer, over terrestrial.”

Well I for one don't care about any pay-TV platform or whether they move off Satellite or not.
I have no doubt there will be a migration to IPTV, but I do not expect much of an impact for 10 or 20 years.

I wonder what the situation will be for the likes of Sky where they presently 'appear' to provide many more channels than they actually do? Will they still have permission to provide those channels on IPTV? Are those agreements in place now for their IPTV launch?

Will Freesat disappear in the next 5 years or even 10 years?

joeysoap

Gerry Wicklow wrote: »

Many UK ex-pats lost their home channels in France and Spain when the new birds flew. Other needed a serious dish upgrade to continue watching.

In Portugal and southern Spain they just point the dish to Gibraltar. When the code changes they bring back the decoder box to the TVs dealers and for €10 the new code is applied ( by USB stick ) the code last changed in December 2015.

joeysoap

I live in a border area and have freesat through a dish. I also have freeview through an old fashioned aerial. There is no comparison on picture quality. Freeview is vastly superior. The number of free channels is roughly the same, with the exception of the Irish channels available on freeview (Saorstat)

Thurston?

joeysoap wrote: »

I live in a border area and have freesat through a dish. I also have freeview through an old fashioned aerial. There is no comparison on picture quality. Freeview is vastly superior.

That simply isn't true. What kind of satellite receiver are you using?

FRIENDO

joeysoap wrote:

I live in a border area and have freesat through a dish. I also have freeview through an old fashioned aerial. There is no comparison on picture quality. Freeview is vastly superior. The number of free channels is roughly the same, with the exception of the Irish channels available on freeview (Saorstat)

I have Freesat, Saorsat and Freeview.
I've not noticed much difference in picture quality between Freesat or Freeview.
Possibly the standard digital version of CBS Action is better on Freeview alright.

Freesat carries more channels than Freeview.

However Freeview may carry a number of channels not on Freesat and not fta on satellite.


Saorsat is a good service,
Excellent picture quality
Good radio service
RTE Aertel
Mheg 5
7 day programme guide.

However we have downfalls also on Saorsat:
Issue with rights for UEFA Champions league.
TV3 family of channels are not on Saorsat.
NO approved Saorsat set top box on the market at the moment.

Thurston?

FRIENDO wrote: »

Saorsat is a good service ...

joeysoap isn't actually referring to Saorsat, but either Saorview or the NI mux that carries RTE & TG4.

FRIENDO

Thurston? wrote:

That simply isn't true. What kind of satellite receiver are you using?

I aggree, I've not noticed much difference between standard digital channels, I can't comment on HD as I don't have a T2 receiver.

In the past I did notice CBS Action on Freeview less grainy than Freesat.

But I think the sat version has since improved, possibly due to a frequency change.

FRIENDO

Thurston? wrote:

joeysoap isn't actually referring to Saorsat, but either Saorview or the NI mux that carries RTE & TG4.

I guessed that also

Harry Palmr

Worth a read, while it's unlikely the big boys will deliberately reduce PQ on their primary platform freeview it just shows how things can be allowed to become shoddy.
http://www.a516digital.com/2016/04/rules-governing-freeview-picture.html

With no complaints received in the last three years about the quality of pictures on Freeview, Ofcom now proposes to drop the requirement that forces the main commercial channels including ITV and Channel 4 to broadcast their standard definition channels with a minimum resolution of 720x576 or 704x576 pixels. Other commercial channels on Freeview are already not bound by these rules, neither are services on satellite and cable platforms.

FRIENDO

Harry Palmr wrote:

Worth a read, while it's unlikely the big boys will deliberately reduce PQ on their primary platform freeview it just shows how things can be allowed to become shoddy.

I would guess that it would be some time before the pbs channels would ever drop picture quality.
I would imagine that the SD versions are probably still the most watched and they still hold the prime epg allocation positions.

soporific

I don't know if it was a mistake but after blank screens for the champions league last week on saorsat, there was also a blank screen for Apres Match. The commercials still played fine during breaks (which I find hilarious). Why would RTE not broadcast Apres Match, a home-grown program with no rights issues, on saorsat??

FRIENDO

soporific wrote:

I don't know if it was a mistake but after blank screens for the champions league last week on saorsat, there was also a blank screen for Apres Match. The commercials still played fine during breaks (which I find hilarious). Why would RTE not broadcast Apres Match, a home-grown program with no rights issues, on saorsat??

Sounds like a mistake, I don't think any rights issues exist for Apres Match.

I would send an email to RTE about it

joeysoap

Thurston? wrote: »

joeysoap isn't actually referring to Saorsat, but either Saorview or the NI mux that carries RTE & TG4.

Yep, sorry, my mistake, Saorview.

Actually I think I have two receivers with different ways of displaying channels.

Both of the TVs Saorview and have the Irish channels from 1 to 11 - UTV HD is on ch 83, BBC 1 HD is on ch 86.( (etc etc)

And a HD recorder which sorts the channels differently i.e. BBC 1 is channel 1 BBC 2 is Channel 2 - and BBC 1 HD is Channel 101, BBC 2 HD is ch 102 etc etc

On this HD recorder RTÉ 1 is 820, RTÉ 2 is 802 and the other Irish channels are all up in the 800's

I don't think the HD recorder (Panasonic) is Saorview, I bought it in NI.

Either way both are superior to my freesat reception, maybe the dish is clapped out.