First Time Buyer - Wireless Monitored Alarm

BBMcQ

Hi all,

Total noob to this home alarm business and I'm afraid of getting take for a ride. I signed up to Phonewatch at the ideal homes show at the weekend but then read through this board and cancelled straight away.

I'm looking for a good value wireless monitored alarm with a reasonable monthly charge to be fitted and installed with minimal upkeep etc. NetworkSecurity seem to be very similar to Phonewatch but their monthly charge isn't mentioned on the website.

I looked at gard.ie also but their up front cost is quite high, and have a €140 annual monitoring charge which is low.

Any help much appreciated, thanks

Update: PhoneWatch was €249 install and €38 a month
Network is €299 install and €26 a month.

kub

First of all well done on educating yourself about Phonewatch, it is absolute madness that people are paying out hundreds of euros for the installation of something which they will never own.

Watch out for terms and conditions on any quote you get installed for less than € 500. That is usually an indication that you are not actually paying for the equipment.

Normally with professional monitoring stations, other than the one we keep hearing about in the media, the annual charge for monitoring is anywhere between € 140 - € 180.

Do any of your neighbours/ friends/ family have intruder alarms installed by anyone other than those you have mentioned?

Just be careful here that you do not fall into a contract where you are paying OTT for something you will never own and for something no other company can repair or service.

BBMcQ

Thanks for the tips! I went with Phonelink in the end. Seems like they are good value and the slightly higher monitoring charge €25 is offset by the €249 cost of the HKC system plus 5 sensors. Unless anybody has anything bad to say about Phonelink I'm happy enough

KoolKid

5 sensors.?
Dont you mean inertia contacts?
Is that covering all you accessible perimeter openings?
How long is the monitoring contract for?

BBMcQ

KoolKid wrote: »

5 sensors.?
Dont you mean inertia contacts?
Is that covering all you accessible perimeter openings?
How long is the monitoring contract for?

3 years. 1 inertia, 2 contact and 2 motion. That's all halls and accessible ground level points covered.

kub

BBMcQ wrote:

Thanks for the tips! I went with Phonelink in the end. Seems like they are good value and the slightly higher monitoring charge €25 is offset by the €249 cost of the HKC system plus 5 sensors. Unless anybody has anything bad to say about Phonelink I'm happy enough

You are paying double the usual domestic monitoring charges by professional monitoring companies.

The cost of that system is not even covering the cost of the equipment, therefore you must be in some type of a never never arrangement with the equipment, that paper work would be worth studying.

5 sensors ? What are they please?

I cannot see how, unless you have 2 rooms in your house how only 5 detectors can provide adequate coverage for a Garda response to your alarm system should it activate as in, does it even have verification coverage?

Did they call out and do a risk assessment?

Have you got all this is writing?

It just seems to have happened very quickly.

KoolKid

BBMcQ wrote: »

3 years. 1 inertia, 2 contact and 2 motion. That's all halls and accessible ground level points covered.

2 contact 2 motion sensors and one inertia is covering all accessible points of entry????
You must be living in a shed. And you are tied into 3 years monitoring at €25 per month?
That's another €900
Do you reckon you got a good Deal??

KoolKid

Probably covering it in the monitoring contract. If you cancel your monitoring you can't use your app. :eek:

BBMcQ

Woah woah woah. Lads I do appreciate the advice it's just the expert options are very vague and not available in simple stsrter kits for someone. Nobody is yet to suggest any links to where to buy?

The €7.99 once off app purchase is not included.

The kit consists of the following:

HKC Quantum 70 Panel
2 X HKC Wireless Contacts (White) Front Door and Rear French Door
1 X HKC Inertia Sensor (White) Front Bay Window)
2 x HKC Wireless PIR Ground and First Floor
1 X HKC GSM SC(Provides Monitoring and App)
1 X HKC Dummy Box
1 X HKC Keyfob with integrated Panic Button

Includes 3 year warranty/servicing/battery etc.

I tried to price the above individually and was coming into around €600 euro, then we 3 years cheap monitoring for approx 4-500euro plus servicing the system etc I don't see where the total 3 year cost is that far off the mark?

kub

Thank you OP, so you have a decoy external alarm box, is there any mention of a second warning device, as in another sounder?
Because what is listed there will not quite comply with EN50131.

Actually just going through your list, Contacts only on your Front and French Doors, you are aware that if someone smashes the glass on either and enters through that section that is damaged, that the alarm system will not detect them?

Inertia Sensor only to your Front Bay window, is it a small bay window? Just that usually they need 2 to provide adequate coverage.
Also you will be able to leave the opening panes on the Bay Window wide open and you can set the system

I would be very cagey disarming any alarm activations from that system via your App and assuming that they are false alarms.
That coverage leaves a lot to be desired.

BBMcQ

Thanks for the advice. What do you recommend I do? Is there a go to website to build my own set up and then a go to company to monitor?

kub

Ideally you should have inertia shock sensors and contacts to all vulnerable windows and doors.
You mentioned 2 x PIR's, well that is about right as they will provide back up and indeed extra alarm verification if the worst happens.
Even though the system is professionally monitored, which is a must, I still would not look beyond a wired external sounder unit.

If I was you, go back to that company and see if they can cut you a good deal, I would however get a few quotes for paying for the system in the first instance and what monitoring costs as a separate entity.

Stevie S

Hi

I have a new build house where it's set up for wired. <snip>, what do the resident experts think of this please?

Presume monitoring is standard 20/25 per month if I go down that route.

Type: pre-wired new home

HKC 10/70 alarm panel
12V 7A backup battery
HKC internal echo siren
HKC SAB (external bell at front)
Front door HKC JB contact
Hallway internal HKC motion sensor
Lounge window HKC inertia/contact
Lounge window HKC JB contact
French doors HKC inertia/contact
Kitchen window HKC inertia/contact
Bedroom one window HKC inertia/contact
Bedroom two window HKC inertia/contact
Bedroom three window HKC JB contact
Bedroom three window HKC inertia/contact
Landing window HKC inertia
Attic velux window HKC JB contact
Attic landing window HKC inertia

Mod Edit price removed

kub

Subject to site survey? The quote is there or thereabouts.

As per EN50131, we as installers are obliged to carry out a site survey and from that a risk assessment of which a system design proposal with costs is proposed to you the client.

Professional domestic monitoring can cost anywhere from € 140 to € 190 per annum, there are dozens of monitoring stations in this country.

Also would recommend 3 written quotations.

Stevie S

kub wrote: »

Subject to site survey? The quote is there or thereabouts.

As per EN50131, we as installers are obliged to carry out a site survey and from that a risk assessment of which a system design proposal with costs is proposed to you the client.

Professional domestic monitoring can cost anywhere from € 140 to € 190 per annum, there are dozens of monitoring stations in this country.

Also would recommend 3 written quotations.

Cheers Kub

This quote is just based on me giving info over the phone so I suppose I'll get them out for the survey

Yeah I got one off Wilson Security too for €965 plus maintenance and optional extras for monitoring so seems a bit higher. Wilson did the show house so felt they would know what they were on about. Will stick that quote up now

kub

I do not know of either companies but Wilson would probably know the house better than the other company and you could also have a quantity difference, some big windows may need 2 shock sensors instead of just 1 etc.

Stevie S

kub wrote: »

I do not know of either companies but Wilson would probably know the house better than the other company and you could also have a quantity difference, some big windows may need 2 shock sensors instead of just 1 etc.

The Wilson one is in a pdf I can't seem to manipulate it into text on my phone I'll stick it up in the morning. Cheers for the reply, was just looking for a sanity check when I see offers for 300 and mine is 3 times that

KoolKid

The offers for a few hundred are either rental agreements or you are tied into monitoring and maintenance for a number of years etc.
Are you looking at any other ongoing charges with any of those quotes.?

Stevie S

KoolKid wrote: »

The offers for a few hundred are either rental agreements or you are tied into monitoring and maintenance for a number of years etc.
Are you looking at any other ongoing charges with any of those quotes.?

With the first one I think it's just the cost of monitoring of €20 / month but wasn't discussed fully

The Wilson one had maintenance of €135 per annum and then had to fork out for monitoring equipment for circa €300 I think as a once off, plus monitoring whatever that would be

Monitoring optional extra in both

KoolKid

I would recommend looking at a few things in more detail.
What equipment and coverage you are getting for your money.
Do you own that equipment.
Is that equipment tied to that installer.
Are you tied to service maintenance monitoring for a period of time.
What is covered under maintenance.
To put it in simple terms. If an offer looks too good to be true it probably is.

Stevie S

Installation:

Internal:
Motion detectors located as follows:

1. Entrance hall
2. Landing
Perimeter:
Inertia sensors with separate contact located as follows:
(Inertia sensors indicate if the window/door is being tampered with, contacts indicate if it is open)

3. Main entrance door.

4. Sitting room front LHS

5. Sitting room front RHS

6. Kitchen window

7. Patio door.
 
Contacts only on the following openings:
8. Landing front

9. Landing side

10. Rear bedroom No. 1

11. Rear bedroom No. 2

12. Front bedroom bay window side opening

13. Front bedroom bay window front opening

14. Top landing window

15. Bathroom skylight

16. Main bedroom patio door.


Remote key pads:
17. Hallway.

Local signalling equipment:
18. External wired bell box to front.

19. Internal sounder.

20. External decoy box to rear.

Control equipment:
21. Main panel will be Wilson Security HKC 10/70 control panel utilising 10 of a possible 110 zones.

22. Back up battery in main control panel. 12v 7AH.

23. Fused spur.

Cost:
Installation: € 956.00 + VAT @ 13.5%

Annual Maintenance: € 165.00 + VAT @ 13.5%

Optional additions:

1.
Remote signalling equipment:

Text/Voice Modem communicator located in main panel.
This notifies a remote monitoring station in the event of an alarm activation.

PSTN line required.

If texting is required and additional service must be used as Eircom no longer support text. This will have an annual charge of €40.00 to HKC.

Installation: € 115.00 + VAT @ 13.5%

2.
Remote signalling equipment with smart phone APP:

GSM Modem communicator located in main panel.

This can act instead of the above communicator or (Ideally) as a back up to it.
This can send texts to pre-programmed phones.

This notifies a remote monitoring station in the event of an alarm activation.

Smart Phone App available (€7.00) allowing full remote control from anywhere in the world.

GSM extender required as mobile signal low

Installation: € 195.00 + VAT @ 13.5%

Plus

Monthly charge to Secure Comm Cloud service €8.99 (By direct debit)

3.
Annual Monitoring: € 135.00 + VAT @ 23%

Either one or both of option 1 + 2 required to allow monitoring.

 
24 Hour manned monitoring station.

Qualify for full available discount on insurance.

Garda response (Subject to type of activation).

4.
Panic buttons:
Each Remote keypad has a panic button built in (Press * and # to activate)
If a separate panic button is required there are a number of options which can be used.
Wall mounted wireless panic button: € 75.00 + VAT @ 13.5%

Portable key fob with panic button: € 55.00 + VAT @ 13.5%

Stevie S

KoolKid wrote: »

I would recommend looking at a few things in more detail.
What equipment and coverage you are getting for your money.
Do you own that equipment.
Is that equipment tied to that installer.
Are you tied to service maintenance monitoring for a period of time.
What is covered under maintenance.
To put it in simple terms. If an offer looks too good to be true it probably is.

Cheers, good questions
pasted the Wison quote, sorry if it looks bad on the page it's from a pdf, tidied it up a bit

KoolKid

That all looks normal.
Not sure what the GSM extender is.If the GSM signal is bad in the area where is it extending it from.
On the app charges etc take a look at the sticky here..
Most other systems are free, so it might be worth a bit more shopping around. €84 per year is a lot to commit to for the life of your system.That will be nearly the same as the install again?
Maintenance alone is a little above average. Did you check if this covers or callouts/labour or is it limited to 1 or 2 calls?
Again. Are you committing to a particular length of time if you take out monitoring?

Stevie S

KoolKid wrote: »

That all looks normal.
Not sure what the GSM extender is.If the GSM signal is bad in the area where is it extending it from.
On the app charges etc take a look at the sticky here..
Most other systems are free, so it might be worth a bit more shopping around. €84 per year is a lot to commit to for the life of your system.That will be nearly the same as the install again?
Maintenance alone is a little above average. Did you check if this covers or callouts/labour or is it limited to 1 or 2 calls?
Again. Are you committing to a particular length of time if you take out monitoring?

Nice one thanks. I'll put together the questions from both of you and mail them back. Glad to know both quotes are in the ball park anyway

Stoner

Lads,

I just trimmed some of the text here. At this stage the user has good information, I'm not so sure suppliers would like their information pulled apart like this so I gave it a hair cut.


Regards

Stevie S

Stoner wrote: »

Lads,

I just trimmed some of the text here. At this stage the user has good information, I'm not so sure supplier would like their information pulled apart like this so I gave it a hair cut.


Regards

Sound no worries

Padraig1888

I'm with Network, they seem to have the best value for money. Most don't include batteries and rip you off when you need them, they include them in the €24.99

KoolKid

Padraig1888 wrote: »

I'm with Network, they seem to have the best value for money. Most don't include batteries and rip you off when you need them, they include them in the €24.99

As long as you never want to leave, shop around or go anywhere else.

Padraig1888

KoolKid wrote: »

As long as you never want to leave, shop around or go anywhere else.

24 month contract, was smaller than most others. 36 months seems to be the norm other than Phonewatch who I wouldn't touch.

KoolKid

And if you want to change after that you will need to get another new system..

Padraig1888

KoolKid wrote: »

And if you want to change after that you will need to get another new system..

Didn't know that but €24.99 for the monitoring, maintenance and batteries is good value. They give you a guarantee on the price so no need to go elsewhere as long as they stick to their word and don't put the price up.

KoolKid

Exactly. But your last line is the problem.

altor

Padraig1888 wrote: »

Didn't know that but €24.99 for the monitoring, maintenance and batteries is good value. They give you a guarantee on the price so no need to go elsewhere as long as they stick to their word and don't put the price up.

That is all well and good but some systems are locked to company's meaning you wont have the option to move.

puamch

Hi, can I ask which network is being discussed in above comment. Also how has your experience been so far. Thanks

Padraig1888

puamch wrote: »

Hi, can I ask which network is being discussed in above comment. Also how has your experience been so far. Thanks

Network Security. All good so far.

KoolKid

Until you need something added or replaced, or wish to switch to another installer.

El Legion

Hi,

I am a newbie to posting, so hope its ok to jump on this thread.
I have read of lot of the threads here and I am taking the advice and getting SDP after a onsite visit. I noted it will be a hybrid alarm as some parts are wired and we have a new extension ( we have bought a house that we are doing up)
reading through the threads here my preference is pointing towards Siemens or GSD.
one service provider is coming next week who does GDS for a review and quote
the other one I contacted in regard to Siemens said the following "With regard to the use of panel, unfortunately the wireless on the Seimans is poor and we stopped using it. We would use a lot of HKC but also have the option of using Texecom"
Has anyone any thoughts on this statement?. Texecom does not seem to be getting good review here

KoolKid

Seems like hes only interested in selling you the system he wants to install.
The Siemens Vandebilt wireless isn't poor it works fine. They just don't have wireless inertia sensors at the moment.
My preferences would be Vanderbilt or GSD also. We have plenty of both of these systems installed .
Whoever calls out to you tell them these are the systems you are interested in & please supply you with a SDP based on what you want, not what they want to sell you. If their experience is limited to one panel they are best avoided IMO.
If you are looking at self monitoring with apps also take a look at the sticky .
There is quite significant differences between whats available especially now that both Vanderbilt & GSD have free options with push notifications.

El Legion

Many Thanks KookKid, I was hoping you would reply.
I have 2 SDP's in writing, covering GSD and HKC.

I am looking for self monitoring, I raised why there seemed to be a €10 a month charge for the GSD app ( GSM Self Monitoring Via GSD Phone APP with Technical Support on App), and the response was that Self Monitoring with home wifi is free, but not as secure as 4G GSM monitoring, which is charged. Has anyone any thoughts on this?

bk

El Legion wrote: »

I am looking for self monitoring, I raised why there seemed to be a €10 a month charge for the GSD app ( GSM Self Monitoring Via GSD Phone APP with Technical Support on App), and the response was that Self Monitoring with home wifi is free, but not as secure as 4G GSM monitoring, which is charged. Has anyone any thoughts on this?

I suppose it is the idea that it would be relatively easy to cut the phone or coax cable going into a house. While 3G/4G is harder to jam, but still very much possible to jam.

However the statement isn't always true. Think of an apartment building feed by Fiber To The Home buried in the road. Short of a thief taking a JCB to the road, then the broadband monitoring will be much more secure.

El Legion

Thanks bk, I think I many stay with the Wifi, and save the €120 annual fee and keep an eye out for JCB's!

2011

El Legion wrote: »

Thanks bk, I think I many stay with the Wifi, and save the €120 annual fee and keep an eye out for JCB's!

Either way don't avail of any insurance discount offered for having an alarm.

The reason is that there are conditions attached in the small print that can make your policy null & void :eek:

fred funk }{

El Legion wrote: »

Many Thanks KookKid, I was hoping you would reply.
I have 2 SDP's in writing, covering GSD and HKC.

I am looking for self monitoring, I raised why there seemed to be a €10 a month charge for the GSD app ( GSM Self Monitoring Via GSD Phone APP with Technical Support on App), and the response was that Self Monitoring with home wifi is free, but not as secure as 4G GSM monitoring, which is charged. Has anyone any thoughts on this?

Are GSD charging €10 per month for their app?

derekbro

fred funk }{ wrote: »

Are GSD charging €10 per month for their app?

As far as I'm aware it's for the international SIM and charges, I've received 2 different quotes, one 7 per month and one 45 per year. Can someone confirm if it's possible to get your own sim or use wifi and still be able to use the app without a subscription?

kub

El Legion wrote: »

Thanks bk, I think I many stay with the Wifi, and save the €120 annual fee and keep an eye out for JCB's!

You get what you pay for, if your electricity fails you will be notified of a comms failure, your alarm system will still be functioning as it has battery back up.
If however your place is broken into during a power cut, then you cannot be notified of an alarm activation.
But still up € 120 per year, so happy days.

El Legion

derekbro wrote: »

As far as I'm aware it's for the international SIM and charges, I've received 2 different quotes, one 7 per month and one 45 per year. Can someone confirm if it's possible to get your own sim or use wifi and still be able to use the app without a subscription?

The installer told me with the wifi the self monitoring app is free, and it is not possible to use own sim in GSD alarm, rather need to pay that €10 euro a month on a 12 month contract

bk

kub wrote: »

You get what you pay for, if your electricity fails you will be notified of a comms failure, your alarm system will still be functioning as it has battery back up.
If however your place is broken into during a power cut, then you cannot be notified of an alarm activation.
But still up € 120 per year, so happy days.

Stick your broadband router/wifi on a UPS and it will continue to work during a power outage and cost a lot less then €120 per year.

Of course it is all a trade off of cost versus risk.

Even a notification of a comms failure might be enough for many people, if you get on well with your neighbours, you could ask them to check on your place. Do they have power? etc.

But you are right, it is all about different risk profiles. It might be needed for someone living in an isolated rural house. But would be overkill for someone living in a city center apartment.

2011

bk wrote: »

Stick your broadband router/wifi on a UPS and it will continue to work during a power outage and cost a lot less then €120 per year.

Of course it is all a trade off of cost versus risk.

Even a notification of a comms failure might be enough for many people, if you get on well with your neighbours, you could ask them to check on your place. Do they have power? etc.

But you are right, it is all about different risk profiles. It might be needed for someone living in an isolated rural house. But would be overkill for someone living in a city center apartment.

Exactly a power cut doesn’t have to defeat an alarm so why should it have to defeat a router? It is not rocket science it is just applying the same solution to the same problem.

kub

bk wrote: »

Stick your broadband router/wifi on a UPS and it will continue to work during a power outage and cost a lot less then €120 per year.

Of course it is all a trade off of cost versus risk.

Even a notification of a comms failure might be enough for many people, if you get on well with your neighbours, you could ask them to check on your place. Do they have power? etc.

But you are right, it is all about different risk profiles. It might be needed for someone living in an isolated rural house. But would be overkill for someone living in a city center apartment.

That would be a very impressive UPS if it can power the local exchange as well.

2011

kub wrote: »

That would be a very impressive UPS if it can power the local exchange as well.

My broadband doesn’t have a powered exchange

bk

kub wrote: »

That would be a very impressive UPS if it can power the local exchange as well.

If your local exchange goes down, then it is likely your local mobile mast has already gone down.

Exchanges tend to be well backed up by UPS's, redundant power supplies, even diesel generators. Eir has legal requirements on redundancy that go far beyond what is required of mobile companies.

Actually it is most likely that the mobile masts are using the fiber backhaul of the local exchange anyway.

If you are talking about this level of outage, neighbours will be out on the road to chat and a burglar would likely be noticed. Plus expect ESB and maybe even Gardai to be around, a major power outage like this attracts a lot of attention and is probably the worst time to try and break in.

Truth is 3G/4G isn't very reliable at all, kind of a crappy comms channel. It has only become popular due to the risk of people cutting phone/coax cables into homes. But overall it is less reliable then a protected hard wire connection and over course it is open to jamming.

Truth is their is really no guarantees with any of them.