How would drug legalisation work?

Seanachai

There has been a lot of criticism of the so called 'War On Drugs' in recent times, from law enforcement and medical professionals alike. There are calls from high office to just (re)legalise most drugs and in doing so neuter the criminal element that profit from the current situation. But what would legalisation actually look like? Do I just walk into a dispensary on a Friday night and buy a bottle of amphetamines like I'd buy a pack of aspirin and would there be a swathe of current drug users overdosing with the newly available purer and presumably cheaper drugs?


http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/drugs-legalise-richard-branson-kofi-annan-report-global-commission-on-drug-policy-report-a7431676.html

Ubbquittious

I suppose initially they'll start off making some of them perscription only, so you'll be able to get some amphetamines after listening to a long lecture from your doctor and him branding you a certified addict. The price will probably be close enough to the illegal price unless you have a medical card. You'll likely have to prove that you're a pre-existing drug addict

There will be plenty of nods, hat tips and consideration given to the anti-drug crowd of old and they'll keep going with the very restricted system until they realise the illegal peddlers are still flourishing. They have pumped a lot of garda resources into fighting this and it won't be easy for them to own up and say it was all for nothing

qo2cj1dsne8y4k

Prescription and then protests for it to be covered on the medical card

cbyrd

Would it be the pharmaceutical companies taking the profit or the government essentially becoming the dealer and taking all the proceeds?
I'd have no problem with drugs being legalized once all the money made went to addiction services and treatment, domestic violence services and other treatments that using drugs entails.
If it's going to line the pocket of private enterprise then no. They've already got too big a hold on the medical community as it is.
Legalizing cannabis oil for serious illness would have to be up there first.

Ubbquittious

cbyrd wrote: »

Would it be the pharmaceutical companies taking the profit or the government essentially becoming the dealer and taking all the proceeds?
I'd have no problem with drugs being legalized once all the money made went to addiction services and treatment, domestic violence services and other treatments that using drugs entails.
If it's going to line the pocket of private enterprise then no. They've already got too big a hold on the medical community as it is.
Legalizing cannabis oil for serious illness would have to be up there first.

That is quite possible. They'll take some big supermassive pharmaceutical company from the States by the arm and pay them an absolute fortune to make something that's actually quite simple to make. Then you'll see some FG mouthpiece yapping on about how this company is the only crowd in the world who can make amphetamines for a reasonable price.

What you're also likely to see is them first making a substance that is basically the former illegal drug but with something extra added in to make it unpleasant to take or to remove the high the user experiences. The pharmaceutical will be granted a patent for this and governments will be queueing up to pay an arm and a leg for this rather than the much cheaper unpatented drug itself

Seanachai

Ubbquittious wrote: »

That is quite possible. They'll take some big supermassive pharmaceutical company from the States by the arm and pay them an absolute fortune to make something that's actually quite simple to make. Then you'll see some FG mouthpiece yapping on about how this company is the only crowd in the world who can make amphetamines for a reasonable price.

What you're also likely to see is them first making a substance that is basically the former illegal drug but with something extra added in to make it unpleasant to take or to remove the high the user experiences. The pharmaceutical will be granted a patent for this and governments will be queueing up to pay an arm and a leg for this rather than the much cheaper unpatented drug itself

Would that not just drive people back to the dealers? The advantages of it being legal are guaranteed purity and not being prosecuted. If you take away the purity element then I'd imagine a lot of people will just go back to the street dealer.

Arghus

Dunno, but it would be a bit of craic for a while.

Dr Crayfish

I never understood how it would work either. Like cocaine for example. It's not the type of drug you pre-order most of the time. You want it yesterday. Which means it'd still be dealt illegally, unless they had shops open selling cocaine at 11 o'clock at night when people have had a few drinks and want to keep the party going.
I could never think of a viable solution to this.

Ubbquittious

Seanachai wrote: »

Would that not just drive people back to the dealers? The advantages of it being legal are guaranteed purity and not being prosecuted. If you take away the purity element then I'd imagine a lot of people will just go back to the street dealer.

It will but there are an awful amount of voters who don't want to see drugs legalised full stop and they'll be trying to keep them happy as much as possible and legalising will be done in an effort to cure existing druggies from their addiction

ScumLord

When it comes to cannabis we have plenty of examples from other countries.

First of all allow people to grow their own plants, there would have to be some sort of cut off I suppose. More than 12 plants and it's considered a comercial grow for example. For most people I don't think there needs to be a license, or checks, just let them grow their plants, I don't think many people would grow plants tbh.

For sale to the general public I don't think we should adopt the netherlands coffeeshop model, smoking should be more or less banned in public settings. That leaves vaping "cafes" or restaurants. Let places apply for a license to sell cannabis products. I think it could be a pretty diverse market, restaurants could have cannabis starters or desserts, cafes could do vaping or edibles.

I think having a social outlet for cannabis consumption would be important, I don't think it should be forced behind closed doors. Maybe the cannabis cafes should be encouraged to be social get together places so the experience isn't totally focused on the drug as it is in pubs... Pubs shouldn't be allowed to sell cannabis, it's one or the other for them but maybe in restaurants can sell both but not to the same person.

Only allow cannabis grown in Ireland and certified by Irish authorities to be sold in Ireland, that probably wouldn't be possible at first, but it should be the goal to develop a home grown industry.

Psychedelics would require a bit more supervision, I think they should be offered as maybe a weekend get away, you go to a place that would allow you to stay overnight, I'd even have counselors on hand for people that want to use the drug to combat mental health issues.

Seanachai

ScumLord wrote: »

When it comes to cannabis we have plenty of examples from other countries.

First of all allow people to grow their own plants, there would have to be some sort of cut off I suppose. More than 12 plants and it's considered a comercial grow for example. For most people I don't think there needs to be a license, or checks, just let them grow their plants, I don't think many people would grow plants tbh.

For sale to the general public I don't think we should adopt the netherlands coffeeshop model, smoking should be more or less banned in public settings. That leaves vaping "cafes" or restaurants. Let places apply for a license to sell cannabis products. I think it could be a pretty diverse market, restaurants could have cannabis starters or desserts, cafes could do vaping or edibles.

I think having a social outlet for cannabis consumption would be important, I don't think it should be forced behind closed doors. Maybe the cannabis cafes should be encouraged to be social get together places so the experience isn't totally focused on the drug as it is in pubs... Pubs shouldn't be allowed to sell cannabis, it's one or the other for them but maybe in restaurants can sell both but not to the same person.

Only allow cannabis grown in Ireland and certified by Irish authorities to be sold in Ireland, that probably wouldn't be possible at first, but it should be the goal to develop a home grown industry.

Psychedelics would require a bit more supervision, I think they should be offered as maybe a weekend get away, you go to a place that would allow you to stay overnight, I'd even have counselors on hand for people that want to use the drug to combat mental health issues.

I can definitely see psychedelics being relegalised pretty soon, there's a lot of work being done to redeem their image and carry out proper testing on them. I think it would be a revolution in mental health care under the right settings, it's something we badly need here.

ohnonotgmail

ScumLord wrote: »

When it comes to cannabis we have plenty of examples from other countries.

First of all allow people to grow their own plants, there would have to be some sort of cut off I suppose. More than 12 plants and it's considered a comercial grow for example. For most people I don't think there needs to be a license, or checks, just let them grow their plants, I don't think many people would grow plants tbh.

For sale to the general public I don't think we should adopt the netherlands coffeeshop model, smoking should be more or less banned in public settings. That leaves vaping "cafes" or restaurants. Let places apply for a license to sell cannabis products. I think it could be a pretty diverse market, restaurants could have cannabis starters or desserts, cafes could do vaping or edibles.

I think having a social outlet for cannabis consumption would be important, I don't think it should be forced behind closed doors. Maybe the cannabis cafes should be encouraged to be social get together places so the experience isn't totally focused on the drug as it is in pubs... Pubs shouldn't be allowed to sell cannabis, it's one or the other for them but maybe in restaurants can sell both but not to the same person.

Only allow cannabis grown in Ireland and certified by Irish authorities to be sold in Ireland, that probably wouldn't be possible at first, but it should be the goal to develop a home grown industry.

Psychedelics would require a bit more supervision, I think they should be offered as maybe a weekend get away, you go to a place that would allow you to stay overnight, I'd even have counselors on hand for people that want to use the drug to combat mental health issues.

any particular reason why?

ScumLord

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

any particular reason why?

I don't think the drugs mix particularly well. Having a smoke and then a drink will send most people to sleepy town, having a drink and then a smoke will send them to spew city. Experienced users may be able to moderate themselves but anyone new coming to cannabis might end up in a hoop or asleep on the side of the street if they mix the drugs for the first time. It can even happen to people who've done both for decades.

I know they have that rule in Amsterdam, I'm not sure what reasons they had for doing it, but one drug is enough for anybody to be dealing with at any one time.

Many pubs are also restaurants these days so the restaurant allowance would be somewhat of a loophole, but the fact your eating would reduce the downsides.

bodhrandude

ScumLord wrote: »

I don't think the drugs mix particularly well. Having a smoke and then a drink will send most people to sleepy town, having a drink and then a smoke will send them to spew city. Experienced users may be able to moderate themselves but anyone new coming to cannabis might end up in a hoop or asleep on the side of the street if they mix the drugs for the first time. It can even happen to people who've done both for decades.

I know they have that rule in Amsterdam, I'm not sure what reasons they had for doing it, but one drug is enough for anybody to be dealing with at any one time.

Many pubs are also restaurants these days so the restaurant allowance would be somewhat of a loophole, but the fact your eating would reduce the downsides.

I agree. I've been sitting around pubs in Glasgow waiting on a dealer to show, meanwhile I would have a few scoops, not a great idea at all. A few times I've had the pins and needles and a good throw up, the other way round a few smokes and then a drink, no problem at all.

Dr Crayfish

The only time I'd some weed is if I'd had a skinful. Otherwise I just get paranoid and panicky. It's lovely after a few drinks though, for me anyway.

Nomis21

I was the driver of the 'Midnight Express' cannabis bus that ran between Manchester, London and Amsterdam throughout the 90's. I drove about 400 trips to Amsterdam and when it all finished I went to live in Amsterdam.

My observations were:

That if you make Cannabis legal, all the other drugs get a bit more legal and former Cannabis dealers go onto selling other less legal drugs whichbecome more available.

Unless neighbouring countries have the same drugs regime, then the country which legalises will find itself a Mecca for drug users from bordering countries who will also come for the harder drugs which will be easier to obtain.

So all Europe needs to legalise at the same time and ALL drugs need to be legal otherwise harder drugs will become more popular.

pangbang

The amount of QUALYs (quality life years) lost to currently available drugs is preposterous. The idea, that in the face of such societal problems, we are toying with the idea of letting the whole shebang loose on society is just out of this world.

Just goes to show you that there is no leadership anywhere anymore. "Feck fixing problems, its real hard! Just let the plebs injure and kill themselves and others"

Or that quote from that political satire show way back (whatever it was called), "I'm the LEADER of these people, I must do what they say!"

It sounds about right for the world we're living in!

blackbox

pangbang wrote: »

The amount of QUALYs (quality life years) lost to currently available drugs is preposterous. The idea, that in the face of such societal problems, we are toying with the idea of letting the whole shebang loose on society is just out of this world.

We're talking about adults here. Nobody is forcing them to take them.

Would you propose to ban alcohol too? It certainly can shorten people's lives.

pangbang

blackbox wrote: »

We're talking about adults here. Nobody is forcing them to take them.

Would you propose to ban alcohol too? It certainly can shorten people's lives.

Sure why do adults have leaders then? :P

Ubbquittious

pangbang wrote: »

The amount of QUALYs (quality life years) lost to currently available drugs is preposterous. The idea, that in the face of such societal problems, we are toying with the idea of letting the whole shebang loose on society is just out of this world.

Just goes to show you that there is no leadership anywhere anymore. "Feck fixing problems, its real hard! Just let the plebs injure and kill themselves and others"

Or that quote from that political satire show way back (whatever it was called), "I'm the LEADER of these people, I must do what they say!"

It sounds about right for the world we're living in!

QUALYs are another bull**** term invented by people who spend their whole lives behind the desk and are afraid to go out and have a bit of fun.

So what if someone loses a couple of QUALYs, there is this idea that as a society we should be aiming to factory-farm as many people as possible and try to keep them alive as long as possible under optimal controlled conditions.

pangbang

Ubbquittious wrote: »

QUALYs are another bull**** term invented by people who spend their whole lives behind the desk and are afraid to go out and have a bit of fun.

So what if someone loses a couple of QUALYs, there is this idea that as a society we should be aiming to factory-farm as many people as possible and try to keep them alive as long as possible under optimal controlled conditions.

We should put you in charge of the health of the planet. I'll proclaim you to be....Lord Imperius Duckworth (the first)

Ubbquittious

pangbang wrote: »

We should put you in charge of the health of the planet. I'll proclaim you to be....Lord Imperius Duckworth (the first)

I think meself Lord Ubbquittious Duckworth would be better.

In really formal situations it would be "of the house Duckworth". The worst of it is even if I spend my entire term walking around the castle grounds with my shotgun shooting the odd pheasant I'll still do a better job than Mary Harney

pangbang

Ubbquittious wrote: »

I think meself Lord Ubbquittious Duckworth would be better.

In really formal situations it would be "of the house Duckworth". The worst of it is even if I spend my entire term walking around the castle grounds with my shotgun shooting the odd pheasant I'll still do a better job than Mary Harney

If you had a special porcupine suit made entirely of rusty syringes filled with crack-cocaine mixed with bubonic plague juice, and then went crowd surfing at every single concert ever.....youd still do a better job than the entire government.

Bit of an exaggeration.

BalcombeSt4

Arghus wrote: »

Dunno, but it would be a bit of craic for a while.

I know.

How great would it be to just walk into a shop & start doing lines of coke of the cash register & then go home with a bottle of Valium & some Morphine to relax in the evening? awwwwwwww

BalcombeSt4

Ubbquittious wrote: »

That is quite possible. They'll take some big supermassive pharmaceutical company from the States by the arm and pay them an absolute fortune to make something that's actually quite simple to make. Then you'll see some FG mouthpiece yapping on about how this company is the only crowd in the world who can make amphetamines for a reasonable price.

What you're also likely to see is them first making a substance that is basically the former illegal drug but with something extra added in to make it unpleasant to take or to remove the high the user experiences. The pharmaceutical will be granted a patent for this and governments will be queueing up to pay an arm and a leg for this rather than the much cheaper unpatented drug itself

I could make them for a reasonable price in my shed.

BalcombeSt4

cbyrd wrote: »

Would it be the pharmaceutical companies taking the profit or the government essentially becoming the dealer and taking all the proceeds?
I'd have no problem with drugs being legalized once all the money made went to addiction services and treatment, domestic violence services and other treatments that using drugs entails.
If it's going to line the pocket of private enterprise then no. They've already got too big a hold on the medical community as it is.
Legalizing cannabis oil for serious illness would have to be up there first.

Boooooo
Opiates,Benzo's & Coke for the laugh first.

Ubbquittious

BalcombeSt4 wrote: »

I could make them for a reasonable price in my shed.

You could but you're shed isn't compliant with the purpose-made brand new standard that sets the requirements for Irish amphetamine producers. So the government won't buy your wares. Lucky the American megacorp managed to get a sneak-preview of this brand new standard and managed to get their shed signed off the morning after it was signed into law.

BalcombeSt4

Ubbquittious wrote: »

You could but you're shed isn't compliant with the purpose-made brand new standard that sets the requirements for Irish amphetamine producers. So the government won't buy your wares. Lucky the American megacorp managed to get a sneak-preview of this brand new standard and managed to get their shed signed off the morning after it was signed into law.

Well thats news to me but I haven't dabbled in amphetamines in years, I just presumed people liked badly made **** ones or they didn't know the difference. What are these new well produced Irish amphetamines like?

Seanachai

BalcombeSt4 wrote: »

Well thats news to me but I haven't dabbled in amphetamines in years, I just presumed people liked badly made **** ones or they didn't know the difference. What are these new well produced Irish amphetamines like?

Less discerning users would probably be content with bathtub speed, but once the new middle and upper class market opens up they're going to want Nazi grade meth in nice bottles with nice labels

OldGoat

Seanachai wrote: »

Less discerning users would probably be content with bathtub speed, but once the new middle and upper class market opens up they're going to want Nazi grade meth in nice bottles with nice labels

Can I pre-order?

Seanachai

BalcombeSt4 wrote: »

I know.

How great would it be to just walk into a shop & start doing lines of coke of the cash register & then go home with a bottle of Valium & some Morphine to relax in the evening? awwwwwwww

They would have to have regular random testing in workplaces, I'd say that would be enough of a deterrent. They may be legal, but a workplace could still enforce their own policy as they do with alcohol. The fear of a drug test in work on Monday would cause a lot to think twice about going crazy.

I don't think people would lose the run of themselves and turn into John Belushi on a bender, maybe a few will at the beginning but it would probably level out eventually.

ScumLord

pangbang wrote: »

The amount of QUALYs (quality life years) lost to currently available drugs is preposterous. The idea, that in the face of such societal problems, we are toying with the idea of letting the whole shebang loose on society is just out of this world.

Qualys?!! Where did that nonsense come out of? It's almost like the exact opposite of what actually happens. The vast majority of people using drugs are doing it when their young and have immense fun doing it. If they're knocking any years off their life it's the ****ty years at the end.

Just goes to show you that there is no leadership anywhere anymore. "Feck fixing problems, its real hard! Just let the plebs injure and kill themselves and others"

Legalising drugs is fixing the problem created by religious morals, and every bit of recorded evidence shows prohibition made things much, much worse. It promoted drugs to people that had never even heard of them, turned it into a black market that never existed before, made addicts out to be scum and destroyed their ability to get support and rehabilitation.

It sounds about right for the world we're living in!

We're now finally starting to live in the real world, it's better than the fantasy land where we pretend drugs don't exist and that people enjoying themselves in privacy are somehow causing you harm.

Ubbquittious

ScumLord wrote: »

Legalising drugs is fixing the problem created by religious morals, and every bit of recorded evidence shows prohibition made things much, much worse. It promoted drugs to people that had never even heard of them, turned it into a black market that never existed before, made addicts out to be scum and destroyed their ability to get support and rehabilitation.

It's not really religious morals but economic ones. You are actually sinning against the modern economy by getting high off something that doesn't cost loads of money.

Your ambition is supposed to be competing in the rat-race and accumulating material wealth but of course the system is set up in a way that makes it very hard to get anywhere. Instead you're lured into buying a vastly overpriced dwelling and bank interest, rent, insurance and all these other things that cost a lot of money and don't give you anything tangible or of real value.

If a significant number of people drop out of that system and instead become content with living in a hippy commune on a field somewhere the system will start to fall apart. They'll probably live more enjoyable and fulfilling lives but that isn't the aim of the game

Seanachai

Ubbquittious wrote: »

It's not really religious morals but economic ones. You are actually sinning against the modern economy by getting high off something that doesn't cost loads of money.

Your ambition is supposed to be competing in the rat-race and accumulating material wealth but of course the system is set up in a way that makes it very hard to get anywhere. Instead you're lured into buying a vastly overpriced dwelling and bank interest, rent, insurance and all these other things that cost a lot of money and don't give you anything tangible or of real value.

If a significant number of people drop out of that system and instead become content with living in a hippy commune on a field somewhere the system will start to fall apart. They'll probably live more enjoyable and fulfilling lives but that isn't the aim of the game

Except drink, trolley fulls on the Thursday night before Good Friday and a bottle of wine during and after the dinner

Ubbquittious

Seanachai wrote: »

Except drink, trolley fulls on the Thursday night before Good Friday and a bottle of wine during and after the dinner

Glenster

Picture the average person on drugs in the centre of your local town.

....
....
....

They're a useless prick right?

....
....
....

So lets not pretend that all drugs are grand.

ohnonotgmail

Glenster wrote: »

Picture the average person on drugs in the centre of your local town.

....
....
....

They're a useless prick right?

....
....
....

So lets not pretend that all drugs are grand.

you are making the mistake of thinking that all drug users are zombie junkies begging passers-by for change. I know plenty of functioning drug users.

Seanachai

Glenster wrote: »

Picture the average person on drugs in the centre of your local town.

....
....
....

They're a useless prick right?

....
....
....

So lets not pretend that all drugs are grand.

Drugs are just what they are, it's how people choose to use them that produces anti-social behaviour. Most people that will be high tonight will be watching Netflix or in a gym or something and won't be bothering anybody. The anti-social types will exist whether they're illegal or legal, the argument for legalisation is to take power away from the cartels and provide cleaner substances to avoid unnecessary death and the strain on the health service.

ScumLord

Ubbquittious wrote: »

It's not really religious morals but economic ones. You are actually sinning against the modern economy by getting high off something that doesn't cost loads of money.

The puritans started antidrug rhetoric before the modern capitalist age started. It's ironic when drugs likely played a huge part in influencing the start of most religions. Many early religious sites even Jewish ones were littered with drug paraphernalia.

Ash.J.Williams

pangbang wrote: »

The amount of QUALYs (quality life years) lost to currently available drugs is preposterous. The idea, that in the face of such societal problems, we are toying with the idea of letting the whole shebang loose on society is just out of this world.

Just goes to show you that there is no leadership anywhere anymore. "Feck fixing problems, its real hard! Just let the plebs injure and kill themselves and others"

Or that quote from that political satire show way back (whatever it was called), "I'm the LEADER of these people, I must do what they say!"

It sounds about right for the world we're living in!

your idea of "QUALY" would be different to someone who likes weed, it's subjective.

Glenster

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

you are making the mistake of thinking that all drug users are zombie junkies begging passers-by for change. I know plenty of functioning drug users.

But when my mates are on coke they're pricks.

ohnonotgmail

Glenster wrote: »

But when my mates are on coke they're pricks.

Find better mates.

Ash.J.Williams

Glenster wrote: »

But when my mates are on coke they're pricks.

coke is a pr1ck drug

Ash.J.Williams

Glenster wrote: »

Picture the average person on drugs in the centre of your local town.

....
....
....

They're a useless prick right?

....
....
....

So lets not pretend that all drugs are grand.

i generally don't associate with people that hang around the center of towns

Seanachai

Ash.J.Williams wrote: »

coke is a pr1ck drug

There's very few humans that stay cool on the yayo. You can get a good worming from Irish coke though

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/crime/irish-drugs-gangs-bulking-up-cocaine-with-dental-anaesthetics-and-worming-treatments-35166382.html

ohnonotgmail

Seanachai wrote: »

There's very few humans that stay cool on the yayo. You can get a good worming from Irish coke though

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/crime/irish-drugs-gangs-bulking-up-cocaine-with-dental-anaesthetics-and-worming-treatments-35166382.html

Dublin is the best place in Ireland. That article proves it conclusively

Seanachai

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

Dublin is the best place in Ireland. That article proves it conclusively

Us culchies are probably accustomed to the veterinary contamination anyway just from sitting beside farmers at the bar :P

Dr Crayfish

I've never met anyone who turns into a prick on cocaine. Who started this myth? If anything it makes people more sociable and talkative.

Seanachai

Dr Crayfish wrote: »

I've never met anyone who turns into a prick on cocaine. Who started this myth? If anything it makes people more sociable and talkative.

You're lucky, it's by no means a myth, it's the drug of choice for obnoxious narcissists the world over. That's not to say that there aren't exceptions, having lived in house-shares with a few heads who used it, I can tell you that the cultural stereotype is very real.

ohnonotgmail

Seanachai wrote: »

You're lucky, it's by no means a myth, it's the drug of choice for obnoxious narcissists the world over. That's not to say that there aren't exceptions, having lived in house-shares with a few heads who used it, I can tell you that the cultural stereotype is very real.

but is the case that it turns normal people in pr1cks or that it is mostly taken by pr1cks and it just exaggerates their nature?

m5ex9oqjawdg2i

Seanachai wrote: »

You're lucky, it's by no means a myth, it's the drug of choice for obnoxious narcissists the world over. That's not to say that there aren't exceptions, having lived in house-shares with a few heads who used it, I can tell you that the cultural stereotype is very real.

They were more than likely obnoxious narcissist arseholes in the first place. Not that the drug turned them. They were always arseholes