whats preventing houses being built?

zweton

Hi folks, sorry for the very basic question but wanted to ask why there are no houses being built at the moment in general? i know theres a housing shortage at the moment and prob a million and one reasons why houses are not being built, i know there are in some citys but we could do with alot more.

MAJJ

zweton wrote: »

Hi folks, sorry for the very basic question but wanted to ask why there are no houses being built at the moment in general? i know theres a housing shortage at the moment and prob a million and one reasons why houses are not being built, i know there are in some citys but we could do with alot more.

My too cents and likely many other reasons:
Planning requirements including social needs, specific rules for apartments
Developer funding via banks and associated costs - money at right price
Builder margin although prices should be there for that know
Fact that the government doesn't realise yet that they need to step in and build houses like they used to as current model isn't working

ted1

Loads of houses being built in south Dublin.

Where are you looking?

Wheeliebin30

MAJJ wrote: »

My too cents and likely many other reasons:
Planning requirements including social needs, specific rules for apartments
Developer funding via banks and associated costs - money at right price
Builder margin although prices should be there for that know
Fact that the government doesn't realise yet that they need to step in and build houses like they used to as current model isn't working

The goverment have stepped in to the tune of 5 billion euro over the next 5 years.

4ensic15

There are a number of factors. There is no credit from traditional sources. Builders providers, solicitors, architects, sub-contractors etc all want to be paid as they supply or do the work. Complying with new building regulations drives the cost of the completed building up to a point where it costs more than equivalent existing buildings. The result is that the market value is below the build cost.
A newly built house has to allow the builder recover the site cost, the build cost and give a reasonable profit.As that is not happening, there is little or no building.

SunSeeker101

Developers can't get funding from banks.

https://www2.deloitte.com/ie/en/pages/deloitte-private/articles/residential-development-funding-landscape.html

the_pen_turner

costs are too high and prices too low.

Yourself isit

the_pen_turner wrote: »

costs are too high and prices too low.

If prices are too low then there's clearly no solving the problem.

davindub

i would have a more cynical view....basically we have the same large developers here as in the UK. https://www.theguardian.com/cities/2017/jan/31/britain-land-housing-crisis-developers-not-building-land-banking

Obviously small developers are the ones feeling the effect of the new regulations the most, but they are the ones building.

pilly

Wheeliebin30 wrote:

The goverment have stepped in to the tune of 5 billion euro over the next 5 years.

How so? Genuine question.

pontoonz

too much building regulations

and most people can't afford new tyres for the car never mind build a house

the_pen_turner

Yourself isit wrote: »

If prices are too low then there's clearly no solving the problem.

there are plenty of solutions to the housing crisis that dont involve any new builds.

phouse prices are too low to allow any profit to builders

Yourself isit

the_pen_turner wrote: »

there are plenty of solutions to the housing crisis that dont involve any new builds.

How?

phouse prices are too low to allow any profit to builders

So they say.

MayoSalmon

In regards to costs 23% VAT needs to be drastically reduced at least for a period of 5 years or until the necessary supply is being built. Literally no need for the government to profit to that extent off the back off construction at the moment.

pilly

Yourself isit wrote:

So they say.

Tbf if there was big profits out there they'd be building like there's no tomorrow.

myshirt

pontoonz wrote: »

too much building regulations

and most people can't afford new tyres for the car never mind build a house

Christ... please don't drive your car if the tyres are in sh't.

Op, the government need to start building; salaried builders and state land, this is because housing doesn't behave like a 'normal good' in the academic sense, houses will only come to the market if prices will go up; also we are not strong enough on taxing vacant land; vat is a killer on first supply; another reason, we build Audi's, we don't build Nissan Micras.

However, you'll see a lot of houses come into the pipeline from Q2 2018. A lot of cash buyers sitting on assets for the 7 year cgt exemption period brought in during the recession.

the_pen_turner

Yourself isit wrote: »

How?



So they say.

look at any vilage or town in rural ireland. there are empty house, empty flats , empty above shops, older houses, etc . all these need is the right combination of incentives to the owners and the right grants to do them up and they could be rented out.
i was in a local town and could easily see hundreds of places that should be done up and rented out.
a benifit would be that it would bring people back living in the town centers


also most builder an trademen are barely getting enough to pay themselves let alone create profit on jobs. the costs are insanely high. im sure that if you worked out the proper rate for a trademan , one man show , all above board you would want 250 a day minium. most people complain if you charge 150 a day

Yourself isit

Surely leverage matters.

Builders can make ~100% from a 10% margin if there's a 90% leverage.

Rather than accept that it's all so much expensive now, let's ask what we can do about it.

Yourself isit

the_pen_turner wrote: »

look at any vilage or town in rural ireland. there are empty house, empty flats , empty above shops, older houses, etc . all these need is the right combination of incentives to the owners and the right grants to do them up and they could be rented out.
i was in a local town and could easily see hundreds of places that should be done up and rented out.
a benifit would be that it would bring people back living in the town centers

That's not going to solve the problem in Dublin nor give the average buyer, who is now 35, what he wants.

also most builder an trademen are barely getting enough to pay themselves let alone create profit on jobs. the costs are insanely high. im sure that if you worked out the proper rate for a trademan , one man show , all above board you would want 250 a day minium. most people complain if you charge 150 a day

Why are labour costs so high? In general they fall during recessions.

the_pen_turner

Yourself isit wrote: »

That's not going to solve the problem in Dublin nor give the average buyer who is now 35 what he wants.



Why are labour costs so high? In general they fall during recessions.

its not going to solve all the problems. but it should allow people that are renting out in the countryside but want to be in towns to do that. this then frees up the houses to other people who want to buy them .

some people will always want a new house so that will have to be catered for .


labour costs are so high (not as high as they should thow). its the cost of insurance, accountants, tools, vans, certification,training, machinery, helth ad safety , all the costs that go into running a business.
at least 40 -50 % of my day rate goes towards the business . its only getting most expensive to be self imployed

Anongeneric

Refusal of government to 'interfere' with the market means we as a state haven't really built social housing for 40 years.
As another poster said, housing is not an average good, and whether you are pro or anti neo-liberal economic policy that should be clear.

Almost 40% of a sale price goes to government/LAs etc. hiking prices to the extent that prices many out of the market thus not creating sufficient demand to make large scale building profitable for builders.

And again as another poster pointed out,
Plenty of towns and villages around Ireland are empty. A country the size of Ireland should really be able to build high speed rail networks. Sligo to Dublin in 45 mins should be doable if you look at high speed rail in countries like Spain, France etc.
The likes of Mullingar/longford/Athlone 20 mins, would really take the pressure of the dublin housing market and bring life back to different regions.

kaymin

Development land is being hoarded and sold to developers at exorbitant rates which feeds into prices that the public can't afford.

Development land should be taxed to hilt at the time planning permission is granted - why should owners of such land benefit to the tune of millions just because some planning authority granted permission to build houses.

Hoarders of development land should be subject to an annual levy until they use it for development.

The government are too weak minded to do this though.

the_pen_turner

we need to build smaller and better layed out houses that use our land better.

we need to build up rather than out

Charlie19

Anongeneric wrote: »

And again as another poster pointed out,
Plenty of towns and villages around Ireland are empty. A country the size of Ireland should really be able to build high speed rail networks. Sligo to Dublin in 45 mins should be doable if you look at high speed rail in countries like Spain, France etc.
The likes of Mullingar/longford/Athlone 20 mins, would really take the pressure of the dublin housing market and bring life back to different regions.

Mullingar is a 40 minute drive from the m50 doing 100kph with no stops and longford would be another 25 minutes on top of that.

Is it really possible for a train to reach these times you mention. Dublin to Sligo 45 minutes?

Tefral

It's the actual cost of building versus the return. It's a pain in the ass to build houses. The regulations are mad, houses these days are nearly passive so you are paying upfront for the reduced energy costs. The problem with that is the customer cannot afford it because banks won't lend.

Labour costs are gone stupid too because it's next to impossible to find good tradesmen so the ones that are charge more because they can get it. Material costs never went down.

the_pen_turner

we need to reduce the need for people to have to go into big cities for work. do this through work form home , or through incentives for businesses to base them selves in towns outside of the cities where posible.

Yourself isit

Anongeneric wrote: »

Refusal of government to 'interfere' with the market means we as a state haven't really built social housing for 40 years.
As another poster said, housing is not an average good, and whether you are pro or anti neo-liberal economic policy that should be clear.

Almost 40% of a sale price goes to government/LAs etc. hiking prices to the extent that prices many out of the market thus not creating sufficient demand to make large scale building profitable for builders.

And again as another poster pointed out,
Plenty of towns and villages around Ireland are empty. A country the size of Ireland should really be able to build high speed rail networks. Sligo to Dublin in 45 mins should be doable if you look at high speed rail in countries like Spain, France etc.
The likes of Mullingar/longford/Athlone 20 mins, would really take the pressure of the dublin housing market and bring life back to different regions.

The costs of building doesnt affect the price - it might affect whether developers build or not.

Samuel T. Cogley

ted1 wrote: »

Loads of houses being built in south Dublin.

Where are you looking?

Define 'loads' in terms of the current demand. I have my doubts they're firing up 10,000 units a year but happy to corrected there.

Yourself isit

Charlie19 wrote: »

Mullingar is a 40 minute drive from the m50 doing 100kph with no stops and longford would be another 25 minutes on top of that.

Is it really possible for a train to reach these times you mention. Dublin to Sligo 45 minutes?

Its all pie in the sky. And Dublin isn't that big a city. Every boom the we need radical transportation or housing options.

It's like Newcastle needed high speed links to North Wales to solve a housing crisis. Or everybody working from home. Or everybody living above shops. Everything except more housing.

Yourself isit

Samuel T. Cogley wrote: »

Define 'loads' in terms of the current demand. I have my doubts they're firing up 10,000 units a year but happy to corrected there.

He's talking about sales of second hand houses bought in 2012. They have to be held for 7 years to have 0% CGT.

Samuel T. Cogley

ted1 wrote: »

Loads of houses being built in south Dublin.

Where are you looking?

Yourself isit wrote: »

He's talking about sales of second hand houses bought in 2012. They have to be held for 7 years to have 0% CGT.

You got that from the quote I posted (and posted again above). That's some reading between the lines!

Yourself isit

pilly wrote: »

Tbf if there was big profits out there they'd be building like there's no tomorrow.

Not if they anticipate more profit next year. That's the nature of land hoarding.

Yourself isit

Samuel T. Cogley wrote: »

You got that from the quote I posted (and posted again above). That's some reading between the lines!

You're right. Someone else said that. But it's true nevertheless

quadrifoglio verde

Tefral wrote: »

It's the actual cost of building versus the return. It's a pain in the ass to build houses. The regulations are mad, houses these days are nearly passive so you are paying upfront for the reduced energy costs. The problem with that is the customer cannot afford it because banks won't lend.

Labour costs are gone stupid too because it's next to impossible to find good tradesmen so the ones that are charge more because they can get it. Material costs never went down.

And the banks shouldn't lend.
3.5 times the income should be the max, unless you've the prospect of serious income gains in the future E.g SHO becoming consultant or a hefty deposit.

I do agree about the costs to build however. These need to be examined and examined quickly.
At a time if crisis, a ftb shouldn't be expected to subsidise cheap/free housing for the the local authorities.
It is nothing but a tax through the back door on ftb

D0NNELLY

zweton wrote: »

i know theres a housing shortage at the moment and prob a million and one reasons why houses are not being built, i know there are in some citys but we could do with alot more.

You're watching too much state propaganda (6.1)

There's 27000 properties for sale on daft at the minute. The only recovery Irish know is a good old fashioned housing bubble. Buy buy buy quick, there's a shortage.

Yourself isit

Housing starts.

http://cdn.thejournal.ie/media/2017/01/commencements2014_2016-3.jpg

testicles

This post has been deleted.

Yourself isit

testicles wrote: »

VAT on new build is "only" 13.5%

What else would VAT be on?

Anongeneric

Yes High Speed trains, there are none in Ireland and it would be a massive capital investment but plenty of countries do it.

Madrid to Seville is 475km, and it takes 2 and a half hours, so Sligo to Dublin, (200km) is doable in 45/50 mins

Charlie19 wrote: »

Mullingar is a 40 minute drive from the m50 doing 100kph with no stops and longford would be another 25 minutes on top of that.

Is it really possible for a train to reach these times you mention. Dublin to Sligo 45 minutes?

con___manx1

the_pen_turner wrote: »

look at any vilage or town in rural ireland. there are empty house, empty flats , empty above shops, older houses, etc . all these need is the right combination of incentives to the owners and the right grants to do them up and they could be rented out.
i was in a local town and could easily see hundreds of places that should be done up and rented out.
a benifit would be that it would bring people back living in the town centers


also most builder an trademen are barely getting enough to pay themselves let alone create profit on jobs. the costs are insanely high. im sure that if you worked out the proper rate for a trademan , one man show , all above board you would want 250 a day minium. most people complain if you charge 150 a day

the reason the rural towns and villages have empty houses and flats is because there are no jobs in the rural areas. most of the jobs in the country are being created in dublin. Dublin is like another country separate to Ireland at the moment with the cost of property and the economy there. the government needs to do something to try get company's in other parts of the country. this would help the housing crisis greatly.

Anongeneric

Businesses want to be close to international transport hubs/similar businesses/locations where they can attract a wide pool of a workforce etc. etc.

Although I'd be in very much in favor of it being spread more around the country, it's not easy to get companies to go to other places.

Politicians would love to be able to announce that they brought hundreds of jobs to their voters, unfortunately it's not that easy.

con___manx1 wrote: »

the reason the rural towns and villages have empty houses and flats is because there are no jobs in the rural areas. most of the jobs in the country are being created in dublin. Dublin is like another country separate to Ireland at the moment with the cost of property and the economy there. the government needs to do something to try get company's in other parts of the country. this would help the housing crisis greatly.

4ensic15

Tefral wrote: »

The problem with that is the customer cannot afford it because banks won't lend.

The banks won't lend what the customer can't afford. Something does not become affordable just because a bank is willing to lend.

pwurple

I'm building at the moment. There is a huge shortage of tradespeople. Carpenters, masons, roofers, they all left when there was no work for them.

No apprentices either. No teenager sees building or a trade as a career, they are all pushed into university.

ionapaul

Anongeneric wrote: »

Businesses want to be close to international transport hubs/similar businesses/locations where they can attract a wide pool of a workforce etc. etc.

Although I'd be in very much in favor of it being spread more around the country, it's not easy to get companies to go to other places.

Politicians would love to be able to announce that they brought hundreds of jobs to their voters, unfortunately it's not that easy.

We should also remember that it's not just a case of the companies themselves not wanting to be located outside of Dublin (I'm sure some would love to rent premises for a fraction of the cost of Dublin city centre!), many businesses know they just won't attract the right kind of candidates if they are based elsewhere. Relatively few highly-skilled, young people want to live outside of the big urban areas, and if a multi-national business wants to hire hundreds of these kinds of European workers it's easier to do it in Dublin - where young people actually want to live, whether you feel that way yourself or not - than in Limerick, Mullingar, Athlone, Waterford, etc etc etc...

For the marquee employers like Facebook, Google, Intercom and so on, I'm fairly sure it is down to the pressures relating to acquiring staff, rather than the desire to be 'near the heart of things' or the personal preferences of top management, that requires them to be situated in Dublin city.

SeanSouth

I was planning to build a new house this year. I own the site but after researching the subject, i just gave up.

1) The government wants 13.5% vat on the on the entire build, about €50,000
2) Irish water wants €6000 for a water connection that's already there
3) The local authority wants €12000 as a development levy but wont do any work for that
4) The local authority wants an extra €4500 because i live within one mile of a commuter train station
5) Building regulations have been increased to a level that's not required and adds hugely to the cost
6) Cant get an engineer to quote less than €8500. Apparently they are all busy
7) The Planning Department cannot be engaged with except through a very slow and archaic process which
is not fit for purpose

ITS NOT ECONOMICAL TO BUILD A HOUSE IN THIS COUNTRY. FULL STOP

Here's whats needed :

1) VAT on new housing needs to be abolished (Like the UK)
2) Building Regs need to be relaxed
3) The Government and Local Authorities need to take their snouts out of the trough
4) Only Building Costs should be allowed. All levies and taxes need to go
5) The planning system needs to be overhauled

Unfortunately the result of all this is that I am now staying put in my own house which leaves one less house available for others.
The whole process from start to finish is bonkers.

myshirt

@ionapaul, did you seriously just put Limerick in the same category as Mullingar, Athlone, and Waterford?

When was the last time you were in Limerick?

Arcade_Tryer

the_pen_turner wrote: »

we need to reduce the need for people to have to go into big cities for work. do this through work form home , or through incentives for businesses to base them selves in towns outside of the cities where posible.

People want to live and work in big cities though. Big cities are a good thing. Big barriers to living in cities is the bad thing.

the_pen_turner

Arcade_Tryer wrote: »

People want to live and work in big cities though. Big cities are a good thing. Big barriers to living in cities is the bad thing.

i dont think they do.
most people in the countryside dont want to live in towns let alone cities.

big cities are my definition of hell to live in.
they have their place but have to be designed correctly . we dont have any design to our cities.

ionapaul

myshirt wrote: »

@ionapaul, did you seriously just put Limerick in the same category as Mullingar, Athlone, and Waterford?

When was the last time you were in Limerick?

Apologies, it would have been easier to just write 'anywhere outside of Dublin' than to actively pick out specific locations! To many people, and young multi-lingual IT workers from oversees in particular I bet, Dublin is the only attractive part of Ireland to live, with maybe Cork and Galway coming in on a 2nd level much further down.

the_pen_turner wrote: »

i dont think they do.
most people in the countryside dont want to live in towns let alone cities.

big cities are my definition of hell to live in.
they have their place but have to be designed correctly . we dont have any design to our cities.

That's fair enough, loads of people don't want to live in urban environments and think town/city life is hell. I think it's very fair to say that a majority of the type of people sought as employees by many bigger businesses and organisations are of the opposing view though, hence one of the many reasons these types of organisations end up being based in Dublin.

Citroen2cv

Cost of building houses is so high partly because they are over-engineered. Now this is a good thing when it comes to Insulation and fire safety. But there are other areas where I think the specs could be reduced eg.amount of concrete and steel going into foundations, size of roof timbers could be reduced.

As someone pointed out, there are houses being built in South Dublin but these are for the high end market, selling at over 500k. I thought that this is the market that already has enough of a supply, for the small amount of people that can afford these prices.

Im not mad on the idea of more houses being built near the M50. You could see a lot of the people buying these house using the M50 for commuting. The M50 is already at choking point, it cannot handle more volume.

pilly

ionapaul wrote: »

Apologies, it would have been easier to just write 'anywhere outside of Dublin' than to actively pick out specific locations! To many people, and young multi-lingual IT workers from oversees in particular I bet, Dublin is the only attractive part of Ireland to live, with maybe Cork and Galway coming in on a 2nd level much further down.



That's fair enough, loads of people don't want to live in urban environments and think town/city life is hell. I think it's very fair to say that a majority of the type of people sought as employees by many bigger businesses and organisations are of the opposing view though, hence one of the many reasons these types of organisations end up being based in Dublin.

Totally agree, though a lot of rural people do not want to live in towns or cities, the young upwardly mobile ones usually do for a social life if nothing else.

pen_turner are you genuinely saying that rural life is fantastic for a 20 year old? Because having moved from Dublin to a rural location myself as a middle aged person I've yet to meet a young person who loves it.

They would kill to live in Dublin, there is no social outlet for them in rural areas. (I know I'm going to get everyone roaring the GAA, but come on when we were 20 did we not want to have a social life? I know I did).