Refused TY

lovely gurl

My son has been refused TY on the basis that he will find it "too difficult" to settle back into 5th year.Theres no behaviour,time keeping or attendance issues just settling back in I was told.He will be 16 starting the leaving turning 17 at that Christmas.
Have told the head I am appealing it to the bom.
Anyone any advice for me,it would be greatly appreciated!

lovely gurl

Guys can someone tell me how to move my post please I'm not getting any feedback tia

ImaCabbage

If there were no issues then there'd be no reason to disqualify him, probably an individual teacher with something - but they can't exactly force someone into 5th year.

lovely gurl

No issues with attendance,time keeping,signings or behaviour.Have never even had a phone call from the school.
The reason I was given was that "he's working very well in a structured envoirment and his teachers feel 4th year would be DETRIMENTAL to him it's too unstructured for him " .
He is borderline DCD as in he has certain traits but CAMHS were not willing to give him an actual diagnosis as he did not meet ALL of their criteria and they said once diagnoised he couldn't be undiagnosed if that makes sense.

Boaty

If there's no issues regarding his attendance , behaviour etc then maybe the teachers have his best interests at heart. Does he mind going straight into 5th year?

lovely gurl

Yes he's absolutely gutted as he's the only one out of his smallish (5) gang of close friends not doing it.I absolutely respect and take on board the heads reason but I feel it's not mentally or emotionally in my son's best interest to make such decisions already for L/c subjects.
I asked if he could repeat 5th year to be told it "wasn't an option" .

lovely gurl

Meant to add his year head told him he was very disappointed for him that he didn't get in as he felt it would have been good for him and would have benefited him.

muttnjeff

If your son has DCD and there are no behavioural issues then i would make it my business to appeal it. Surely a child who is not academic NEEDS to do Ty as there is so much to learn and lots of 'thinking outside the box' . By pushing him into 5th year without his friends they are doing him a great dis service. His organisational skills could be worked on during TY as well as OT programme of exercises . Very unfair. You owe it to him to keep appealing. Its obviously a 'numbers' issue if there is no behaviour problem.

evolving_doors

1. Are they seriously saying their TY program is unstructured? If that's the case the TY 'Coordinator' should take a look at their job title.

2. Have you got it in writing why they are refusing him (email or anything). If you are having a meeting with the school bring someone with you and take notes.

Finish the meeting by asking if they are refusing him entry on the grounds of a disability (Dyspraxia)? If they are, then it's a case of picking up the phone and ringing anyone who might be interested. Local TDs , newspapers, disability association.

Sure, Schools reserve the right to select TY students... but not discriminate on the grounds of having a disability.

Has he ever gotten a education psychological assessment?

lovely gurl

Gebgbegb wrote: »

1. Are they seriously saying their TY program is unstructured? If that's the case the TY 'Coordinator' should take a look at their job title.

2. Have you got it in writing why they are refusing him (email or anything). If you are having a meeting with the school bring someone with you and take notes.

Finish the meeting by asking if they are refusing him entry on the grounds of a disability (Dyspraxia)? If they are, then it's a case of picking up the phone and ringing anyone who might be interested. Local TDs , newspapers, disability association.

Sure, Schools reserve the right to select TY students... but not discriminate on the grounds of having a disability.

Has he ever gotten a education psychological assessment?

Yes he had the educational psychological assessment while in primary school.He attended our local CAMHS from the age of 5 till last year when they said and we agreeded that he no longer needed to attend his progress was that good.
No have nothing in writing,got a phone call a few days before to ask my "feelings " on his application.That was when he said not every application would be successful despite the schools own website stating TY is available to everyone and is optional.I knew from his tone that my son would not be getting in and felt the call was only a curtosy call to break the bad news to my son.
Our appeal is tomorrow evening.I have contacted our local independent TD who just happens to also sit on the board and he promised to make a good representation for him.
The TY coordinator gets paid extra for those TY duties in that particular school because of the union it is in I was told by another teacher.
I actually said it to the TD that maybe the teacher needs to start earning it if the principle says TY is too unstructured that that is a failing of the organiser not the pupil.

Fingers crossed for tomorrow!!

jennyhayes123

Good Luck. My son was same last year. Didn't get in. Worst thing ever as most of his friends were doing it. I won't go into to much details here but I would advise you to if possible to not take no for an answer
Good Luck

lovely gurl

muttnjeff wrote: »

If your son has DCD and there are no behavioural issues then i would make it my business to appeal it. Surely a child who is not academic NEEDS to do Ty as there is so much to learn and lots of 'thinking outside the box' . By pushing him into 5th year without his friends they are doing him a great dis service. His organisational skills could be worked on during TY as well as OT programme of exercises . Very unfair. You owe it to him to keep appealing. Its obviously a 'numbers' issue if there is no behaviour problem.

We are appealing it the meeting is this Monday.To be fair the uptake was very high but we know for a fact that the school sat on the fence over one pupil and were considering letting the pupil in,they didn't in the end so there is definitely a place available.
It is my belief that because they were unable to make contact with the parent by phone in time they didn't give an outright refusal and therefore strung that student along on 3 different occasions before giving a final answer.Imo that was very unfair and cruel on that student and parents.
I'll keep you posted thanks!

lovely gurl

jennyhayes123 wrote: »

Good Luck. My son was same last year. Didn't get in. Worst thing ever as most of his friends were doing it. I won't go into to much details here but I would advise you to if possible to not take no for an answer
Good Luck

Thank you do you mind if I ask if you appealed it or was it unsuccessful?I'm dreading to think what will happen if our appeal is unsuccessful as the principle told us repeating 5th year is not an option.

evolving_doors

Be clear on the school TY policy OP ... download it from the website and read it carefully.
If they are saying it's optional then they're not being honest.
Perhaps it states that all prospective students have to make a special application to be in TY and the school reserves the right to accept or reject. In this case you mightnt have as much leeway.... however it's being hinted to you that the grounds for refusal are because of your sons needs.
Get them to state exactly why they are refusing and if they are being vague say that you suspect it's because of his dyspraxia.
Don't slam the door but give them an opportunity to 'save face'... ask them to reconsider if your son and yourself makes a list of reasons why it would be good for him.

jennyhayes123

lovely gurl wrote:

Thank you do you mind if I ask if you appealed it or was it unsuccessful?I'm dreading to think what will happen if our appeal is unsuccessful as the principle told us repeating 5th year is not an option.

I'll pm you

lovely gurl

Got the letter today,he didn't get in.He used a recommendation from the O/T 8 YEARS AGO as a reason "to avoid where possible situations that he would become over stimulated and therefore over excitable"(these are the O/Ts words).
They graded him 10/20 for record of compliance with the schools behaviour policy and code of conduct.Yet have never had as much as a phone about the behaviour and the principle himself stating behaviour was not an issue.
They gave me a copy of his application form for TY which is to be signed by a parent at the end.
This is the first we saw of this form!!This shows his level of maturity that he filled it out by himself and in fairness it's appaling.He totally misunderstood the questions and should have been guided by us in filling it out.

Where do I go from here ?Do I get legal advice and fight on?Also found out today they accepted that other student who has a record of unacceptable behaviour .Mother told me she was constantly getting called into school for meetings over this child's behaviour and postings on social media.

What do I do......

muttnjeff

dont take no for an answer. keep calling in to school-dont phone or you will be fobbed off. Sit outside office if you have to.bring his father. appeal to their better nature- cry- do whatever you have to do but dont give up. he deserves a chance to flourish in TY. he certainly won't flourish in 5th year if all his friends are together in another year. beg them to give him one chance-filling out the app on his own just shows how immature he is and NOT ready to go forward to L.cert programme

emo72

My son was a good good academic student. Ty was bad for him though. He took his eye of the ball for a year and couldn't get back into the rhythm. Secondary school was one year too many and he would tell you himself that ty was a waste. I had my reservations about it myself and really regret making him do it. Just an alternative view. It might not be bad if he skips it. But it should be your choice!

Gavinz

lovely gurl wrote: »

No issues with attendance,time keeping,signings or behaviour.Have never even had a phone call from the school.
The reason I was given was that "he's working very well in a structured envoirment and his teachers feel 4th year would be DETRIMENTAL to him it's too unstructured for him " .
He is borderline DCD as in he has certain traits but CAMHS were not willing to give him an actual diagnosis as he did not meet ALL of their criteria and they said once diagnoised he couldn't be undiagnosed if that makes sense.

I'm not sure what DCD is but tbh, I found(along with some friends)that TY was actually detrimental for me, personally.

I found it jarred me out of the study mindset for a year and I found it VERY difficult to get back into.

I actually asked my parents if I could skip ahead and they said no.

It certainly affected my LC results, looking back.

Perhaps the teachers know best and this could be a blessing in disguise?

J Mysterio

lovely gurl wrote: »

My son has been refused TY on the basis that he will find it "too difficult" to settle back into 5th year.Theres no behaviour,time keeping or attendance issues just settling back in I was told.He will be 16 starting the leaving turning 17 at that Christmas.
Have told the head I am appealing it to the bom.
Anyone any advice for me,it would be greatly appreciated!

That is a disgrace. School passes quick enough as it is. I find TY to be very benificial to kids growth. Well done on your stance.

lovely gurl

Just an update found a copy of that O /T report he quoted from it was done 21/08/2007 when he was 5 years 8 months old!!!!!
Spoke to 2 different O/T who have assessed him in the past both agreeing there ARE no behavioural issues at this stage.Am looking into getting an up to date assessment if needed.
Principle also stated that as all his signings were for bad behaviour this was also a concern.He has 16 signings for the year to date,12 are for incomplete homework,2 for forgetting materials and JUST 2 for bad behaviour which was bad language used to another pupil on 2 diff occasions.
Hmmmm......for a man in his position he doesn't sound too honest to me.....
Also his application form was not seen by us or signed by us.

Boaty

lovely gurl wrote: »

Just an update found a copy of that O /T report he quoted from it was done 21/08/2007 when he was 5 years 8 months old!!!!!
Spoke to 2 different O/T who have assessed him in the past both agreeing there ARE no behavioural issues at this stage.Am looking into getting an up to date assessment if needed.
Principle also stated that as all his signings were for bad behaviour this was also a concern.He has 16 signings for the year to date,12 are for incomplete homework,2 for forgetting materials and JUST 2 for bad behaviour which was bad language used to another pupil on 2 diff occasions.
Hmmmm......for a man in his position he doesn't sound too honest to me.....
Also his application form was not seen by us or signed by us.

12 incomplete homeworks is an awful lot for someone in third year.
I have no doubt that 4th year would really affect his motivation and Leaving Cert in a negative way.
I think the best thing for him is to let him go straight into fifth year and enroll him in evening study after school if possible.

lovely gurl

Boaty wrote: »

12 incomplete homeworks is an awful lot for someone in third year.
I have no doubt that 4th year would really affect his motivation and Leaving Cert in a negative way.
I think the best thing for him is to let him go straight into fifth year and enroll him in evening study after school if possible.

It sounds like a lot of incomplete homework etc I know yes but that is part of his condition,his attention to detail etc he may consider it complete but the teacher doesn't. It has been noted in several different assessments that it is difficult to keep him motivated to finish assignments etc to a proper level of detail.If there's a shortcut he'll take it I don't mean that in a lazy way just he finds writing for a significant length of time physically challenging so he tires more easily than a normal student.
He is doing after school study but it is only available to exam years in the school.

evolving_doors

lovely gurl wrote: »

Got the letter today,he didn't get in.He used a recommendation from the O/T 8 YEARS AGO as a reason "to avoid where possible situations that he would become over stimulated and therefore over excitable"(these are the O/Ts words).

That seems a bit vindictive to say the least.... they dug out a report done in 5th class!
Do they apply the same criteria to other applicants with an additional need?
Did they ever recommend him not doing PE in case of 'over stimulation'?

lovely gurl wrote: »

They graded him 10/20 for record of compliance with the schools behaviour policy and code of conduct.Yet have never had as much as a phone about the behaviour and the principle himself stating behaviour was not an issue.

Also sounds harsh.

lovely gurl wrote: »

They gave me a copy of his application form for TY which is to be signed by a parent at the end.
This is the first we saw of this form!!This shows his level of maturity that he filled it out by himself and in fairness it's appaling.He totally misunderstood the questions and should have been guided by us in filling it out.

Sounds unfair that they accepted it without a signature.

lovely gurl wrote: »

Where do I go from here ?Do I get legal advice and fight on?Also found out today they accepted that other student who has a record of unacceptable behaviour .Mother told me she was constantly getting called into school for meetings over this child's behaviour and postings on social media.

What do I do......

At the end of the day it'll come down to the schools policy on TY(I think! ). If it says "the school reserves the right to refuse" then you probably have a long battle on your hands. But the grounds they've given for refusing seem incongruous with other applicants who did get in.

I find it strange that they've gone to such great lengths to refuse.

Do you AND your son (and partner) 100% want him to do TY?

evolving_doors

Boaty wrote: »

12 incomplete homeworks is an awful lot for someone in third year.
I have no doubt that 4th year would really affect his motivation and Leaving Cert in a negative way.
I think the best thing for him is to let him go straight into fifth year and enroll him in evening study after school if possible.

How do you know that it would affect his motivation?

It sounds like for someone who is finding academic life challenging...you're prescribing more of the same.
Will that improve motivation?
Due to his learning difficulty will he be any better at completing his homework in 5th year?

TY 'should' be designed in such a way as to help students experience success outside of academic exam pressures.

Personal development
Short term Goal setting
Personal reflection
Work experience
Group work/team building
Community work
Drama/music/gaisce
Experiencing new curricula through modules.

Honestly though OP if the school doesn't offer a good TY program or any (if not all) of the above then he might be better off if he's not being kept busy.

Boaty

Yes TY should be designed in the ways above but how many schools do it to an acceptable standard is a for different thread.
Having read the latest posts, i feel that he should be TY even if the school doesn't have the best TY system in place, his horizons will still be broadened and social skills improved through talking in class etc.
Hope you come out on top Lovely!

lovely gurl

Gebgbegb wrote: »

That seems a bit vindictive to say the least.... they dug out a report done in 5th class!
Do they apply the same criteria to other applicants with an additional need?
Did they ever recommend him not doing PE in case of 'over stimulation'?



Also sounds harsh.



Sounds unfair that they accepted it without a signature.



At the end of the day it'll come down to the schools policy on TY(I think! ). If it says "the school reserves the right to refuse" then you probably have a long battle on your hands. But the grounds they've given for refusing seem incongruous with other applicants who did get in.

I find it strange that they've gone to such great lengths to refuse.

Do you AND your son (and partner) 100% want him to do TY?

I found a copy of the report last night and it's actually nearly 10 years old being done when he was 5 years 8 months old!!He's changed enormously in almost 10 years!!
I'm going to fight it but my partner feels by doing that we will sour any good relationship with the principle but I frankly feel what he's already done has already burned bridges .

muttnjeff

Forget about relationships with principal. Your relationship with your son is more important. No matter what the outcome is he needs to know that his parents fought tooth and nail for him to get into TY.
I think you should redo the application form with him. Guide him with his answers. Bring the newly completed form in to school with you-along with your partner and your son-show them how important it is to you all. Make sure your son is prepared beforehand to answer any questions they may have about committing.
As an aside a boy who has 12 unfinished homework notes in JC is NOT mature enough for 5th yr.

As a final plea could you make an agreement with the principal that you will both (PArents) keep him closely monitored during the TY year? ( as you would have during JC had they kept you informend about missing H/W etc )
Make out points before you go in because they/the principal will try to fob you off/bamboozle you with stats....stick to your guns...your son will see that you are on his team but that you expect him to step up to the challenge too.

Best of luck.

lovely gurl

Spoke to the year head today.Asked him to keep an eye on my son as he came home sick on Mon with anxiety (tummy pains and headache) he rang to come home Tues but I didn't let him.Hes totally stressed over waiting for the answer to the appeal we actually decided not to tell him for the moment as we feel it would affect his motivation and told the year head this.

Then today the resource teacher told our son she heard the appeal failed!In her defence there was no harm meant on her part he has a good relationship with her and I think she was just seeing how he was ,I was so cross at the situation but not at her.

Anyway also asked the year head how many pupils didn't get in to which he said he hadn't a clue,nothing to do with him he said.
I asked him if there was anything going on that I wasn't aware of to affect the rejection of his application.He told me it was because my son is volatile!!!I said that was news to me,had never been informed of any issues and to give me an example of an incident to which he said "shure isn't he attending Miss xxx " I said yes for resource not for any behavioural issues so said he needed to back up his accusation of him being volatile to which he quickly back tracked and said" oh I used the wrong word".
I must point out that I rang him first thing and he didn't phone me back till the afternoon and I firmly believe the principle was listening in on the call with him because when I challenged him he was like a rabbit caught in the headlights!Stumbling over his words.
He said about my sons signings and I said yes but only 4 are behaviour 12 for incomplete homework etc

.The bad behaviour were 2 for inappropriate language,1 for his headphones still in and 1 for playing with an object in class.
Not one signing for aggression,pushing,hitting,lashing out,hurting anyone so how can they class his "bad" behaviour as volatile??

Think we are going to ask for a meeting with the principle although personally he has burned his bridges with me.Going to tell him we are going to the ETB I don't know why he seems to think it was acceptable to use a report almost 10 years old when these reports have a shelf life of 3 years and he got an up to date one last year but CHOSE not to use that one as it was about his progress being so good.

I'm just at a total loss to his attitude with us.Its a shame because no matter what happens now he has completely soured any relationship we will have with him going forward.

bisset

If you have exhausted the internal appeals process i think you should contac the office of the ombudsman for children and explore whether you have an appropriate case to bring to them.

J Mysterio

Contact your local TD?

lovely gurl

So had a meeting with the principle and viceprinciple.Hes going into 5th year,BUT if he's struggling by midterm they are going to make an application to the dept that he repeat 5th year.He wouldn't be told about repeating till he's finished 5th year.Tbh I'm relieved.It was a good clear the air meeting too and I think it will resolve his age issue for me without him facing into the leaving cert for possibly another year yet.The school are happy because it will keep him in his structure.Although if there are no issues with him coping he will not be allowed to repeat so just have to see how he gets on.
Thanks so much everyone for the support and advice,ye have no idea how much I appreciated it!

SusieBlue

lovely gurl wrote: »

So had a meeting with the principle and viceprinciple.Hes going into 5th year,BUT if he's struggling by midterm they are going to make an application to the dept that he repeat 5th year.He wouldn't be told about repeating till he's finished 5th year.Tbh I'm relieved.It was a good clear the air meeting too and I think it will resolve his age issue for me without him facing into the leaving cert for possibly another year yet.The school are happy because it will keep him in his structure.Although if there are no issues with him coping he will not be allowed to repeat so just have to see how he gets on.
Thanks so much everyone for the support and advice,ye have no idea how much I appreciated it!

Glad you have resolved the issue but this outcome wouldn't satisfy me at all. Essentially, even if he does struggle, they might fob you off and not let him repeat the year.
They are also acknowledging that he may not be ready for the leaving cert cycle by saying they'll allow him repeat.
Imo, it makes no sense at all to repeat 5th year when he could just do 4th year and do one year of each school year without having to repeat anything.

I only did my leaving cert 8 years ago, and the first day of 5th year the pressure was put on, all focus was on the final exams. I actually had a terrible experience in TY (poorly organised in my school) but I can't imagine having to go straight from JC pressure into LC pressure, with the only silver lining being that I get to do 5th year twice (therefore an extra year of stress) if it doesn't work out.

Obviously as the parent you know your son better but two years of 5th year as a resolution sounds like a nightmare. There's also the danger his classmates will see him as "slow" (hate to use this word and mean no offence, using it for lack of better word) for having to repeat.
All this could be solved by just letting him do 4th Year. The school sound very inflexible to me.

muttnjeff

is your son happy with that? As long as he knows that you have done all you can for him. Is he over 16? Another option could be take him out for the year. He could do volunteer work and some part time work and different batches of work experience that you might organise yourselves through friends and relatives. Then return to school for fifth year with his friends? Sounds a bit off the wall but who says everything has to be by the book? Once he is over 16 school is not compulsary. Only thing is you would want to be sure they would take him back into fifth year or go elsewhere-no repeating involved and solves the age issue.

muttnjeff

I have just seen he is very young. Remember that if he goes straight ahead apart from academically his classmates will all be turning 18 long before him---party time!!! So his classmates will be (Legally)going to pubs and drinking at discos and that will be the lunchtime chat.... Not what I would want for my child. I would seriously consider moving school and doing TY. He will make lots of new friends as in my experience TY mixes all the groups up again so friends from 1-3rd yr may not all stay as close and new friendships are formed. he could still stay in touch with the others