Drinking in pregnancy...

Graces7

This shocking news came out today.

http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/600-babies-born-with-foetal-alcohol-syndrome-every-year-786599.html

Wondering how much drink it takes over what time frame to inflict this damage on the unborn?

I know the report mentions first pregnancies and will mean that the woman maybe did not know she was pregnant?

suicide_circus

Right2Choose

Cee-Jay-Cee

How is that shocking, it's been known for years but as usual 'Breaking News' super journalists are only hearing it now.

Drinking alcohol during pregnancy has always been known to be bad for the child's health.

s4uv3

It's no secret tbh. The quantity and timescale isn't very well known, every body is different. There's no way of knowing when and how much alcohol will "push the button" and cause the damage unfortunately.

But if you don't know that drinking while pregnant can cause damage, then you need to get yourself some schoolin!

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

This has been known for decades. Hardly breaking news. The current consensus is that all alcohol should be avoided once a pregnancy is known and until breastfeeding is complete.

How this strikes anybody as news just astounds me.

cherryghost

Something something fermenting beer

s4uv3

Elias Lazy Skillet wrote: »

until breastfeeding is complete.

Nuh uh. Newer research shows that alcohol doesn't transfer into breastmilk nearly as much as previously thought, so it's actually deemed safe to have the odd one now while feeding.
I'm sure next year there'll be different guidelines again!

Mars Bar

A woman in the gym was telling us that she was out drinking on Paddy's Day, which was a Friday, with a friend and his girlfriend. They got absolutely hammered! The friend's girlfriend went in to hospital on Monday with pains and gave birth to a healthy baby boy! She didn't even know she was pregnant. She climbed Kilimanjaro in January and was drinking over Christmas at parties and at the wedding of the woman from the gym in September.

ScumLord

I think people in general knew it was bad to drink during pregnancy, but that a glass of wine once or twice wasn't going to make much of a difference. From what I've just heard just those one or two drinks could be enough to do damage, it's a complete gamble, 3 drinks could be fine for one pregnancy but damaging for others and pregnant women shouldn't drink at all.

Jack the Stripper

It's when they are smoking and downing yokes at 2am on a Sunday morning I would be more concerned with.

murpho999

Anybody who drinks any alcohol during pregnancy is stupid, selfish and ignorant.

Alcohol goes straight into the bloodstream and therefore straight to the baby.

It's very simple.

Lived in Netherlands for years and never seen any expectant mother drink any alcohol ever, it's just not done.

Why is it different here?

ceadaoin.

On all the studies done on alcohol consumption during pregnancy, FAS has never been observed in babies whose mothers drank moderately. In fact some studies have shown better outcomes in early childhood. It's caused by alcoholic levels of drinking or binge drinking and even then it's not a certainty. I don't see any need to demonise women who have one glass of wine a week or the equivalent when pregnant.

Raging_Ninja

ceadaoin. wrote: »

On all the studies done on alcohol consumption during pregnancy, FAS has never been observed in babies whose mothers drank moderately. It's caused by alcoholic levels of drinking or binge drinking and even then it's not a certainty.

Define "alcoholic level" and "moderate".

infogiver

murpho999 wrote: »

Anybody who drinks any alcohol during pregnancy is stupid, selfish and ignorant.

Alcohol goes straight into the bloodstream and therefore straight to the baby.

It's very simple.

Lived in Netherlands for years and never seen any expectant mother drink any alcohol ever, it's just not done.

Why is it different here?

Because the general rule of "don't be a d**k" has somehow bypassed a lot of Irish people

ceadaoin.

Raging_Ninja wrote: »

Define "alcoholic level" and "moderate".

Moderate = a single drink once or twice a week. Most women are smart enough to know what moderate means and adjust their intake accordingly. The ones who drink to excess on a regular basis are going to do that regardless

ScumLord

ceadaoin. wrote: »

Moderate = a single drink once or twice a week. Most women are smart enough to know what moderate means and adjust their intake accordingly. The ones who drink to excess on a regular basis are going to do that regardless

The advice they're giving now is any alcohol is seriously bad.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

s4uv3 wrote: »

Nuh uh. Newer research shows that alcohol doesn't transfer into breastmilk nearly as much as previously thought, so it's actually deemed safe to have the odd one now while feeding.
I'm sure next year there'll be different guidelines again!

Newer than the expert giving a talk to the IMO this morning? Boy, things change quickly.

MonsterCookie

The bit that surprised me is the number: 600. A quick google suggests this is a shade either side of 1% of all births in a year.

ceadaoin.

ScumLord wrote: »

The advice they're giving now is any alcohol is seriously bad.

That doesn't change the results of the many studies that show light to moderate drinking does no harm. Unfortunately some people will use that as an excuse to drink to excess so no alcohol is the only advice health authorities can safely give I suppose

Either way, demonising women is not going to help. Babies will still be born with FAS, and pregnant women with alcohol issues will be more reluctant to seek help if they feel they will be attacked for it

longshanks

Next week it'll be red meat, a week later nuts or gluten or whatever. Everything in moderation and you'll be a fine specimen, just like me.

murpho999

murpho999 wrote: »

Anybody who drinks any alcohol during pregnancy is stupid, selfish and ignorant.

There's a lot of scientific research which says that the occasional drink is perfectly fine.

I must remind my mother and my sister next time i see them that they are "stupid, selfish and ignorant " for adhering to the advices of their doctors and published medical evidence during their pregnancies.

Both successful women who took time out of their careers to raise children, but NO... They are:

(i) stupid
(ii) selfish
(iii) ignorant

lol

ceadaoin.

longshanks wrote: »

Next week it'll be red meat, a week later nuts or gluten or whatever. Everything in moderation and you'll be a fine specimen, just like me.

Well they used to advise no peanuts during pregnancy to prevent allergies. Then they found out that lack of exposure to nuts in utero actually caused allergies so they had to backtrack on that one.

The human race seemed to do fine with reproduction for several thousand years without any official advice!

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

ceadaoin. wrote: »

Well they used to advise no peanuts during pregnancy to prevent allergies. Then they found out that lack of exposure to nuts in utero actually caused allergies so they had to backtrack on that one.

The human race seemed to do fine with reproduction for several thousand years without any official advice!

I assume you are being facetious but for those thousands of years we had huge instances of stillborn children, miscarriage, and many abnormalities at birth.

Mitch Connor

I remember the master of one of the maternity hospitals on the radio last year giving out about the demonizing of women during pregnancy, be it foods with artificial additives or drinking. He wasn't saying you should go get hammered but that in sensible Moderation drinking wasnt an issue. Ie. If you want to have a glass of wine, have it.

The_Valeyard

A glass isn't going to do any damage


A binge night out possibly could.

Moderation.

Also breast feeding mothers can pump n dump, but most women seem to be against that with all the effort of pumping in the first place.

murpho999

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

There's a lot of scientific research which says that the occasional drink is perfectly fine.

I must remind my mother and my sister next time i see them that they are "stupid, selfish and ignorant " for adhering to the advices of their doctors and published medical evidence during their pregnancies.

Both successful women who took time out of their careers to raise children, but NO... They are:

(i) stupid
(ii) selfish
(iii) ignorant

lol

I fail to see how being successful does not mean you can be ignorant about alcohol and pregnancy.

The vast majority of medical advice would recommend not to drink alcohol whilst pregnant. Why would anybody think any differently?

I would also argue that the vast majority of doctors would advise against it?

Where you with them at the time of their pregnancies when they sought medical advice?

Here's some evidence I found:

HSE and Chief Medical Advisor advice


NHS UK Advice

More Info

Samsgirl

I think it's very selfish to drink alcohol during pregnancy. It's not forever. By the time the pregnancy is confirmed it's about 34 weeks to go without.
So much can go wrong during pregnancy and I think that every baby deaerves the best start in life at being healthy.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

OP should have posted it here : http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056838009

Capt'n Midnight

ScumLord wrote: »

The advice they're giving now is any alcohol is seriously bad.

Things like methanol , isopropanol alcohol, fusel oils are nasty.

Actually as a general rule any alcohol is seriously bad, we just have a higher tolerance for ethanol

One eyed Jack

suicide_circus wrote: »

Right2Choose

Curiously enough, well this case is in the UK obviously, but it's an interesting one all the same -

Child born with foetal alcohol syndrome loses UK compensation case

CP's compensation application was initially rejected by the CICA in November 2009 on the grounds that she had not sustained an injury "directly attributable to a crime of violence", as required by the Offences Against the Person Act.

A first-tier tribunal allowed her initial appeal but the Upper Tribunal of the Administrative Appeals Chamber ruled last December that the law required a crime to be committed against an individual "person" - and a child did not become a person until birth. The Upper Tribunal concluded: ''If (the girl) was not a person while her mother was engaging in the relevant actions then, as a matter of law, her mother could not have committed a criminal offence.''

Asking the appeal judges to quash the Upper Tribunal decision, Mr Foy argued CP had been a person entitled to compensation while still a foetus and the crime committed against had similar ingredients to manslaughter. Alternatively, she became entitled to an award when she was born and was suffering the continuing consequences of her alcoholic mother's drinking. Mr Foy said CP was the young mother's second pregnancy and the woman was well aware of the risks. But she had recklessly "administered a noxious thing - a destructive thing" to her unborn daughter and inflicted grievous bodily harm for which the child should be compensated.

Dismissing CP's appeal, Lord Justice Treacy said an "essential ingredient" for a crime to be committed "is the infliction of grievous bodily harm on a person - grievous bodily harm on a foetus will not suffice". The judge said CP was born with limited growth potential. He added: "All the suffering that CP has endured and will continue to endure during her life is the consequence of the harm that was inflicted on her when she was in her mother's womb." Any further harm she suffered after her birth was a result of what had occurred while she was still a foetus.

The judge said Mr Foy's argument "breaks down" because Parliament had not expressly said a foetus was "a person" against whom a criminal offence could be committed. He said: "Parliament has identified certain circumstances where criminal liability arises if a mother causes injury to her foetus. "Thus the offence of a pregnant woman using poison, with intent to procure her own miscarriage (section 58 of the Offences Against the Person Act 1861), specifically provides for circumstances in which a woman administers poison or a noxious thing to herself. "This offence does not apply to the circumstances of the present case because it requires intent (to harm). "Section 1 of the Infant Life (Preservation) Act 1929 provides that it is an offence to destroy the life of a child capable of being born alive before it is born.

"Parliament could have legislated to criminalise the excessive drinking of a pregnant woman, but it has not done so outside these offences. "Since the relationship between a pregnant woman and her foetus is an area in which Parliament has made a (limited) intervention, I consider that the court should be slow to interpret general criminal legislation as applying to it." The judge added that, in English law, women did owe a duty of care to their unborn child. But "a competent woman cannot be forced to have a caesarean section or other medical treatment to prevent potential risk to the foetus during childbirth."

If a third party inflicted harm on an unborn child, they could be liable for damages if the child was born with disabilities under the Congenital Disabilities (Civil Liability) Act 1976. But claims could not be brought against the child's mother unless the harm was caused by her when she was driving a motor vehicle. The judge said: "The law would be incoherent if a child were unable to claim compensation from her mother for breach of a duty of care owed during pregnancy, but the mother was criminally liable for causing the harm which gave rise to damage and a right to compensation under the 1995 Criminal Injuries Compensation Act." He added: "In my view, the role of the state in these circumstances should be to provide care and support for the child who has suffered harm to the extent that this is necessary. "It should not be to pay compensation on the basis that the child is the victim of a crime by her mother." Lawyers for CP expressed "disappointment" with the ruling and said they were now considering their options. The only legal avenue left open is to seek to go to the Supreme Court, the highest court in the land.

Fr_Dougal

Sur what else are they going to do whilst waiting for their Forever Home

murpho999

murpho999 wrote: »

I fail to see how being successful does not mean you can be ignorant about alcohol and pregnancy.

Well this article from the Harvard Medical School website goes through the evidence (or lack of evidence of harm) and calls your position a bit "extreme".

http://www.health.harvard.edu/blog/study-no-connection-between-drinking-alcohol-early-in-pregnancy-and-birth-problems-201309106667

you with them at the time of their pregnancies when they sought medical advice?

Um, no... what are you saying, that my mother and sister lied to us about the advices they got from their doctors.

Sounds like got a new epithet for our list. These women are all:

(i) stupid
(ii) selfish
(iii) ignorant
(iv) LIARS!!!!!

I feel like we need to throw in the 'c' word for completion. what do you think?

s4uv3

Elias Lazy Skillet wrote: »

Newer than the expert giving a talk to the IMO this morning? Boy, things change quickly.

Nope, I stand corrected
And there's me thinking something I read a few weeks back was up to date :rolleyes:

murpho999

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

Well this article from the Harvard Medical School website goes through the evidence (or lack of evidence of harm) and calls your position a bit "extreme".

http://www.health.harvard.edu/blog/study-no-connection-between-drinking-alcohol-early-in-pregnancy-and-birth-problems-201309106667


Um, no... what are you saying, that my mother and sister lied to us about the advices they got from their doctors.

Sounds like got a new epithet for our list. These women are all:

(i) stupid
(ii) selfish
(iii) ignorant
(iv) LIARS!!!!!

I feel like we need to throw in the 'c' word for completion. what do you think?

Reading the article you posted, it's mainly an opinion piece, mostly focussed on the first trimester.

They are also inconclusive and does not really rely upon empirical evidence.

Also, they are talking more about moderate alcohol meaning no more than one alcoholic drink per day.

Do you really think with Irish attitudes to drink that expectant Irish mothers stick to this?

You seem very sensitive about your mother and sister, do you not think it's possible that an Irish doctor might have given bad advice about this in the past?

Either way, I don't think how anybody would really need advice on this and it's completely logical that alcohol will impact on a baby's development.

ceadaoin.

murpho999 wrote: »

Also, they are talking more about moderate alcohol meaning no more than one alcoholic drink per day.

Do you really think with Irish attitudes to drink that expectant Irish mothers stick to this?

.

Yes, we can't expect silly women to make an informed decision about their alcohol consumption can we, let alone understand the meaning of the word "moderate"

My daughter is 5 and The advice when I was pregnant from the NHS was 1-2 drinks once or twice a week. When I was in early labour I was told by the midwife to relax in the bath with a glass of wine. Do you think that the NHS was putting thousands of babies at risk for FAS for years with that advice?

There is plenty of evidence that moderate drinking does not cause harm. Being obese or even travelling in a car are more dangerous for pregnant women and their babies. Is anyone suggesting that mothers who do those things are also selfish?

La.de.da

Drinking whilst pregnant is wrong. It's 9-10 months out of your life. If your lucky enough to want and be able to have a child, it should be given the best start possible from conception.

Is it worth it to potentially damage your unborn child? I don't think so.

murpho999

ceadaoin. wrote: »

Yes, we can't expect silly women to make an informed decision about their alcohol consumption can we, let alone understand the meaning of the word "moderate"

My daughter is 5 and The advice when I was pregnant from the NHS was 1-2 drinks once or twice a week. When I was in early labour I was told by the midwife to relax in the bath with a glass of wine. Do you think that the NHS was putting thousands of babies at risk for FAS for years with that advice?

There is plenty of evidence that moderate drinking does not cause harm. Being obese or even travelling in a car are more dangerous for pregnant women and their babies. Is anyone suggesting that mothers who do those things are also selfish?

Well what you are saying is not what is advised by the NHS now, as linked earlier.
Here it is again.

bnt

I knew a pregnant lady who would have the occasional pint of normal beer in her third trimester of pregnancy, and there was little danger involved at that stage. Ditto for a glass of wine during early labour: not going to do any harm. But that kind of specific moderation is clearly beyond some, so if in doubt I support the "don't drink at all" advice.

If people know the dangers and still choose to drink they are selfish and incompotent. You'll survive without a beer or wine for a while.

Lia_lia

Is it just me or was the OP more shocked at the amount of women that admit to drinking during pregnancy/number of babies with with foetal alcohol syndrome..?

Surely everyone knows that drinking alcohol is bad during pregnancy.

When my Mother was pregnant with me she didn't have a sip of alcohol throughout the pregnancy, until she was 2 weeks past her due date. She was in the pub with my Dad and thought "sure no damage could be done now, what harm?". She drank 2 pints and went into labour.. She says she was mortified as she reckoned the midwives could smell the drink off her and were thinking she was an "alco". :pac:

Tea-a-Maria

Lia_lia wrote: »

Is it just me or was the OP more shocked at the amount of women that admit to drinking during pregnancy/number of babies with with foetal alcohol syndrome..?

Surely everyone knows that drinking alcohol is bad during pregnancy.

When my Mother was pregnant with me she didn't have a sip of alcohol throughout the pregnancy, until she was 2 weeks past her due date. She was in the pub with my Dad and thought "sure no damage could be done now, what harm?". She drank 2 pints and went into labour.. She says she was mortified as she reckoned the midwives could smell the drink off her and were thinking she was an "alco". :pac:

I'd wager that a lot of the women who answered yes to that question were ones who were drinking early on in the pregnancy before they realised they were pregnant. Around half of pregnancies in Ireland are unplanned after all.

bee06

It would be interesting if the article said what percentage knew they were pregnant when they had that drink. I know plenty of women who got pregnant unexpectedly who were drinking away because they didn't know.

I, on the other hand, gave up drinking when I was trying to get pregnant. A year later with nothing happening I had a glass of wine on my birthday. lol and behold that was the month I got pregnant.

Lia_lia

Tea-a-Maria wrote: »

I'd wager that a lot of the women who answered yes to that question were ones who were drinking early on in the pregnancy before they realised they were pregnant. Around half of pregnancies in Ireland are unplanned after all.

Yes, this is what I was thinking too. Very few women I know (especially younger women) actually planned their pregnancies. I know a girl who didn't know she was pregnancy until she went into labour! She drank through the whole pregnancy. Baby was grand.

I personally wouldn't drink when pregnant. Wouldn't drink that much anyway.

DEFTLEFTHAND

An undersized newborn in my locality is referred to as a, 'Woodbine Baby'.

meeeeh

Why are people with pretty dysfunctional attitude to drinking also the biggest zealots about when no to drink?

Cloudio9

I guess there are lots of very young people on this thread based on the number of posts with opinions like this and others saying we've "always" known it's bad.

Ten years ago I was in a Dublin maternity hospital with my wife for an appointment and the doctor said having an occasional drink like a glass of wine is fine.

I'm sure many of the women surveyed were following their doctors advice that it was ok to have a drink but now are being shamed in the media.
Jennifer O'Connell wrote about being made to feel like a bad mother recently in the Irish Times as this story was doing the rounds a month or two ago.

By 2010 for our second in the hospital they were saying the latest advice is we don't know a safe alcohol limit so can't tell you it's ok to have a drink.

mrsmags16

Cloudio9 wrote: »

Ten years ago I was in a Dublin maternity hospital with my wife for an appointment and the doctor said having an occasional drink like a glass of wine is fine.

It is fine. There is no evidence whatsoever that this causes any harm to the fetus. The easiest advice to tell the public however is to avoid all alcohol in pregnancy.
I'm a pregnant doctor and I have maybe 2 half glasses of wine a week. I researched it myself with evidence-based sources.

Graces7

Lia_lia wrote: »

Is it just me or was the OP more shocked at the amount of women that admit to drinking during pregnancy/number of babies with with foetal alcohol syndrome..?

Surely everyone knows that drinking alcohol is bad during pregnancy.

When my Mother was pregnant with me she didn't have a sip of alcohol throughout the pregnancy, until she was 2 weeks past her due date. She was in the pub with my Dad and thought "sure no damage could be done now, what harm?". She drank 2 pints and went into labour.. She says she was mortified as she reckoned the midwives could smell the drink off her and were thinking she was an "alco". :pac:

Just in and reading this

Of course I knew re Foetal Alcohol Syndrome and its effects .

My family in Canada face this disability every day as many affected are homeless etc so are fed etc on the streets..

Yes it is the sheer numbers and also that this is injury inflicted by the mother that is totally and utterly avoidable. As if the unborn did not face enough troubles and dangers . And as if rearing children was not hard enough without serious disability of this kind. It will affect the entire family

So yes it is irresponsible and worse.

And also that the article stresses that it is often misdiagnosed. As someone who lost three decades of life to a misdiagnosis, that is hard to read,

And given the effects it also decided me never ever to touch alcohol again. It has so much power for damage. We do not need it, period.

rentcar

thanks very good site

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

Graces7 wrote: »

Just in and reading this

Of course I knew re Foetal Alcohol Syndrome and its effects .

My family in Canada face this disability every day as many affected are homeless etc so are fed etc on the streets..

Yes it is the sheer numbers and also that this is injury inflicted by the mother that is totally and utterly avoidable. As if the unborn did not face enough troubles and dangers . And as if rearing children was not hard enough without serious disability of this kind. It will affect the entire family

So yes it is irresponsible and worse.

And also that the article stresses that it is often misdiagnosed. As someone who lost three decades of life to a misdiagnosis, that is hard to read,

And given the effects it also decided me never ever to touch alcohol again. It has so much power for damage. We do not need it, period.

Interesting that many of those affected in Canada are homeless. The figures here show it is more prevalent in middle class families.

As for never touching alcohol again. It's not a big bad wolf. There are times and places for it. It can be consumed without risk by many, at many times. Let's keep all in perspective.

Lady is a tramp

My understanding is that no harm is likely to be done to the foetus until the placenta is formed, which happens at around 6-7 weeks pregnant.

Most harm that is done to the foetus via alcohol happens within the first trimester, i.e. if the mother drinks excessively in the period between that 6-7 week mark, and the end of the first three months of pregnancy. (Obviously it's not a good idea to drink excessively in the second or third trimesters, but those first three months are when the most significant damage is likely to be done to the developing foetus.)

Personally I found out I was pregnant at 3 days past the 4 week mark, and stopped drinking immediately, and no harm was done to the baby. I did have one West Coast Cooler at around the 6/7 month mark, when out for dinner with my boyfriend, but I'd done enough research to be satisfied that this one drink would not do any harm to the baby. (I still felt a bit uncomfortable though, I felt like other diners might be judging me for having the drink, when I had a visible bump at that stage!)

A good friend of mine drank alcoholically through all three of her pregnancies, from start to finish, even had her husband bring alcohol in to her in Holles Street the day after the youngest was born. Amazingly she had two perfectly healthy babies; the third had slight Foetal Alcohol Syndrome but she's in her twenties now and very happy and healthy and successful in her career; you'd never know there had been anything wrong with her. Her mother has been sober now for close to twenty years. Obviously it took her a long term to come to terms with the guilt involved; alcoholism is a really awful disease to live with.