RECI Cert For Replacing An Electric Shower

Sleeper12

I am a plumber & run a dedicated shower repair & installation company. Up till now I've always had a RECI with me on full installations or if the RCBO needs changing on a shower repair. Everything else I do myself. Repairs & replacements & pull cord replacements. Has anyone heard of new RECI regulations about issuing a cert for all electric shower replacements?

It's still considered minor works by CER

I'm at this 30 years but I'm still not quite 50 yet. So I need another 15 to 20 years out of this.

Electricman

Any work done on a distribution board and in special locations ie all work in areas listed in part 7 of the wiring rules must be carried out and certified by a REC (Registered Electrical Contractor)
Bathrooms come under part 7 and therefore it is clear that all works on an electric shower must be completed only by a REC.
Why would you not simply join RECI and become a REC. If the reason you won't join is because you are not an electrician then maybe you should not be carrying out electrical works.

See this link Section 2

http://www.safeelectric.ie/restrictedWorks.pdf

2. the modification, installation or replacement of a Distribution Board including customer tails on either side of the Main Protective Device or of an Electrical Installation in any of the special locations listed in Part 7 of the National Rules for Electrical Installations, as the case may be;

Sleeper12

Electricman wrote:

Any work done on a distribution board and in special locations ie all work in areas listed in part 7 of the wiring rules must be carried out and certified by a REC (Registered Electrical Contractor) Bathrooms come under part 7 and therefore it is clear that all works on an electric shower must be completed only by a REC. Why would you not simply join RECI and become a REC. If the reason you won't join is because you are not an electrician then maybe you should not be carrying out electrical works.

I'm in contact with CER a few times a year since 2012 and they have assured me that replacing a shower like for like swap and repairs on the shower itself come under minor works. If it didn't then triton and mira engineers wouldn't be able to repair the showers under warranty as these are mostly plumbers.
I was wondering if there was any truth to new RECI rules saying a cert needs to be issued. This would leave me trying to explain to clients that CER are happy with me doing this work but RECI members must issue a cert I can't issue.

Electricman

What "new RECI rules" are you referring to. As far as I know there are no new RECI rules. RECI don't make the rules, they simply apply the regulations as outlined in the CER criteria document. The definition of restricted works in special locations quoted in my last post has not changed since 2013.
If you are in touch with the CER please ask them to clarify the special location in part 7 restrictions.

Sleeper12

Electricman wrote:

What "new RECI rules" are you referring to. As far as I know there are no new RECI rules. RECI don't make the rules, they simply apply the regulations as outlined in the CER criteria document. The definition of restricted works in special locations quoted in my last post has not changed since 2013. If you are in touch with the CER please ask them to clarify the special location in part 7 restrictions.

The regulations on part 7 are for all electrical installations. Replacing an electric shower isn't an installation, it's a replacement and falls under the minor work section.
I was asking was there new RECI regulations. You seem to be confirming that there aren't.

Electricman

You are correct, replacing a shower is not an installation, the problem is the rules apply to and I quote
"The modification, installation or replacement "
So it's a replacement, in a special location, and the work should only be done by A Registered Eletricial Contractor who should provide a completion certificate.
You are also correct in that there are no new RECI rules.

Sleeper12

Electricman wrote: »

You are correct, replacing a shower is not an installation, the problem is the rules apply to and I quote
"The modification, installation or replacement "
So it's a replacement, in a special location, and the work should only be done by A Registered Eletricial Contractor who should provide a completion certificate.
You are also correct in that there are no new RECI rules.[/quote

This is what it actually says:

the modification, installation or replacement of a Distribution Board including customer tails on either side of the Main Protective Device or of an Electrical Installation in any of the special locations listed in Part 7 of the National Rules for Electrical Installations, as the case may be;

If I read this correctly it suggests to me "an electrical INSTALLATION in part 7. The only modification and replacement mentioned relates to the fuse box and not part 7. Maybe I'm reading it wrong but I've sent an email about it to CER / safety Ireland. They wrote it so they must know what it means. I'll report back when I hear from them

Sleeper12

Restricted Electrical Works; this involves restricting the carrying out and certification of all
Controlled Electrical Works in a domestic setting to RECs with no legal exemption for the
Owner or Occupier.
As set out in Statutory Instruments, S.I. No. 264 of 2013, Restricted Electrical Works are:
1. the installation, commissioning, inspection and testing of a new Electrical Installation
which is fixed, fastened or mounted or otherwise secured so that its position does not
change and requires connection or re-connection to the distribution network or the
transmission network, as the case may be;
2. the modification, installation or replacement of a Distribution Board including customer
tails on either side of the Main Protective Device or of an Electrical Installation in any of
the special locations listed in Part 7 of the National Rules for Electrical Installations, as
the case may be;
3. the installation or replacement of one or more circuits in an Electrical Installation,
including the installation of one or more additional protective devices for such circuits on a
Distribution Board; or
4. the inspection, testing or certification of, or reporting on, existing Electrical Installations
covered by Chapter 62 of the National Rules for Electrical Installations;
in a Domestic Property.
Minor electrical work remain outside the scope of Restricted Electrical Works (see
document CER/13/147 for definition of minor electrical works).

http://www.reci.ie/Portals/0/130729%20REC%20Factsheet%20(2)-Copy.pdf

Ok basically RECI say I can't go near the fusebox. Haven't a problem with that. They also say a cert must be issued for the installation of a new shower. Not a problem as we use RECI sparks for full installations. No cert needed for replacement shower, pull cord etc & no cert needed for shower repairs. This was in the new laws brought in 2013 & they haven't changed them since.

Calahonda52

IMO It becomes clearer if we dump the "or" from its function as a coordinating conjunction linking two main clauses and simplify the writing to the following:

The modification, installation or replacement of a Distribution Board including customer tails on either side of the Main Protective Device.

The modification, installation or replacement of an Electrical Installation in any of the special locations listed in Part 7 of the National Rules for Electrical Installations.

Sleeper12

Calahonda52 wrote:

IMO It becomes clearer if we dump the "or" from its function as a coordinating conjunction linking two main clauses and simplify the writing to the following:

Totally agree. A simple full stop would have ruled out any confusion.

Electricman

Sleeper12 wrote: »

http://www.reci.ie/Portals/0/130729%20REC%20Factsheet%20(2)-Copy.pdf

Ok basically RECI say I can't go near the fusebox. Haven't a problem with that. They also say a cert must be issued for the installation of a new shower. Not a problem as we use RECI sparks for full installations. No cert needed for replacement shower, pull cord etc & no cert needed for shower repairs. This was in the new laws brought in 2013 & they haven't changed them since.

Maybe I am missing something but where exactly in the quote (which is just a copy and paste from the RECI website) do RECI say you don't need a certificate for a replacment shower??? Or for shower repairs ???

My understanding is that the "replacement" of electrical equipment in "Special Locations listed in Part 7" ie Bathrooms is "restricted works"

Restricted works in a domestic location can only be legally carried out be a Registered Electrical Contractor and must be certified.

You said you were going to seek clarification from the CER, Have you done that.?

I have seen nothing to change my opinion that any person who is replacing electric showers or pull cord switches and is not a Registered Electrical Contractor is breaking the law and is in danger of being prosecuted by the CER.

Fortywatt

So is an electric shower an electrical installation for the purposes of S.I. No. 264 of 2013 (which is what really matters)?

Electricman

It's even simpler than that "the modification, installation or replacement of electrical equipment in Special locations" is Rectricted Works.

A bathroom is a Special Location listed in Part 7
Therefore it is unlawful for anyone who is not a Registered Electrical Contractor to "Modify, install, or Replace any electrical equipment in a bathroom.

It is clear to me that to replace a shower is work that should be done be a Registered Electrical Contractor who should provide a certificate.

Sleeper12

Electricman wrote: »

It's even simpler than that "the modification, installation or replacement of electrical equipment in Special locations" is Rectricted Works.

A bathroom is a Special Location listed in Part 7
Therefore it is unlawful for anyone who is not a Registered Electrical Contractor to "Modify, install, or Replace any electrical equipment in a bathroom.

It is clear to me that to replace a shower is work that should be done be a Registered Electrical Contractor who should provide a certificate.

This is the section you sent me to:

Restricted Electrical Works; this involves restricting the carrying out and certification of all
Controlled Electrical Works in a domestic setting to RECs with no legal exemption for the
Owner or Occupier.
As set out in Statutory Instruments, S.I. No. 264 of 2013, Restricted Electrical Works are:
1. the installation, commissioning, inspection and testing of a new Electrical Installation
which is fixed, fastened or mounted or otherwise secured so that its position does not
change and requires connection or re-connection to the distribution network or the
transmission network, as the case may be;
2. the modification, installation or replacement of a Distribution Board including customer
tails on either side of the Main Protective Device or of an Electrical Installation in any of
the special locations listed in Part 7 of the National Rules for Electrical Installations, as
the case may be;
3. the installation or replacement of one or more circuits in an Electrical Installation,
including the installation of one or more additional protective devices for such circuits on a
Distribution Board; or
4. the inspection, testing or certification of, or reporting on, existing Electrical Installations
covered by Chapter 62 of the National Rules for Electrical Installations;
in a Domestic Property.
Minor electrical work remain outside the scope of Restricted Electrical Works (see
document CER/13/147 for definition of minor electrical works).

It says

the modification, installation or replacement of a Distribution Board including customer
tails on either side of the Main Protective Device or of an Electrical

They are only talking about the fusebox here.

They then go on to say:

Installation in any of
the special locations listed in Part 7 of the National Rules for Electrical Installations

Here they are talking about Part 7 areas but they have made the distinction Here that its Installation only

This is what you pointed me to. Are there other guidelines I should be looking at?

Is there a link to the national wiring rules?

red sean

Electricman wrote: »

It's even simpler than that "the modification, installation or replacement of electrical equipment in Special locations" is Rectricted Works.

A bathroom is a Special Location listed in Part 7
Therefore it is unlawful for anyone who is not a Registered Electrical Contractor to "Modify, install, or Replace any electrical equipment in a bathroom.

It is clear to me that to replace a shower is work that should be done be a Registered Electrical Contractor who should provide a certificate.

So does this mean you need a REC to replace a light bulb in a bathroom?
It is a piece of electrical equipment.

seamus

Sleeper12 wrote: »

Here they are talking about Part 7 areas but they have made the distinction Here that its Installation only

You're misreading the rules.

"Electrical Installation" refers the unit, not the installation of a unit.

“Electrical Installation” means an assembly of electrical equipment with wiring or cable, to fulfil one or more specific purposes and having associated
characteristics;

That's from the actual law; http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2013/si/264/made/en/pdf

This means that the sentence,
"the modification, installation or replacement of a Distribution Board
including customer tails on either side of the Main Protective Device
or of an Electrical Installation in any of the special locations listed in
Part 7 of the National Rules for Electrical Installations, as the case
may be;"

Should be read as others have said above. It should have been clearer when written, as:

the modification, installation or replacement:
- of a Distribution Board including customer tails on either side of the Main Protective Device or
- of an Electrical Installation in any of the special locations listed in Part 7 of the National Rules for Electrical Installations, as the case may be

This is the interpretation a court would take because there is a specific definition given for the phrase "Electrical Installation".

Sleeper12

seamus wrote:

This is the interpretation a court would take because there is a specific definition given for the phrase "Electrical Installation".

They go to the trouble of saying installation, replacement or modification when they talk about the fuseboad. Then in the same sentence they only use the term installation for part 7. I'm autistic & I take things literally. Reading the CER document they clearly draw the distinction between institution and replacement of the fuseboad and in the same sentence I'm supposed to know that installation now means replacement too?

seamus

Look at the law. "Electrical Installation" in this context is a phrase referring to an electrical appliance/unit, not the act of installation.

If it helps, it's the first definition in this list;

http://www.dictionary.com/browse/installation

"Installation" can refer to the act of installing, or to something which is already installed. In the context of the electrical rules it's referring to something already installed.

Sleeper12

seamus wrote:

"Installation" can refer to the act of installing, or to something which is already installed. In the context of the electrical rules it's referring to something already installed.

Yes but in the CER document they use installation, replacement & alterations as 3 separate things. You can't then try to use installation as covering the three in the same sentence.
Look I shouldn't be arguing. I asked for people's opinions or facts so unfair for me to disagree if I don't like what I hear. Just saying that the CER document doesn't make sense

Electricman

Sleeper12 you are separating the words "electrical and installation" in the sentence. By dropping the word "electrical" you are reading the sentence in the wrong context.

You said you were looking for clarification from the CER, What did they say??

It does look like any work, even changing a bulb, in a bathroom is restricted works. I personally think this is totally stupid legislation, but this clearly is the law. I suspect that if someone gets hurt in a shower modified, replaced, or installed, by someone who is not a Registered Electrical Contractor, the person who fitted the replacment shower will end up before the court

This is my interpretation of the requirement

The modification, installation or replacement of a Distribution Board including customer
tails on either side of the Main Protective Device or
The modification, installation or replacment of an Electrical Installation in any of the special locations listed in Part 7 of the National Rules for Electrical Installations, as
the case may be;

Therefore the Replacment of a shower in a bathroom is not minor works

Sleeper12

Electricman wrote:

You said you were looking for clarification from the CER, What did they say??

I'm a member of a plumbing forum on Facebook. I have been told by CER in 2013 to carry on replacing & repairing but not to install. I'm still waiting for a reply from RECI Another member was told recently no repair, no replacement & no installation. Yet another from the group had a sit down meeting with a RECI inspector, this was an official meeting.

Im just back from a RECI/Safe electric meeting where this was outlined. It is the understanding of these bodies that only Registered electrical contractors should undertake any electrical work involved in the fitting of a shower, be it new or replacement. They also in the same breath outline that it is completely illegal (since 2007) for a REC to go beyond the cover of a gas boiler once the gas supply has been made live.

RECI said that they consider a replacement shower an installation therefore comes under restricted works.
They also said that you can repair showers, you just cannot replace.

The above quotes are from the guys that met the RECI inspector. Again with "Repairs" allowed I'm not sure if “Electrical Installation†is the correct term

No one can clarify were a repair starts. If the connection block is damaged & I trim back the cable can I reconnect it? Some repairs require taking the shower off the wall and putting it back. Then you have Triton and Mira replacing showers under warranty. Complete replacement under warranty, they don't have Recs working for them.
Sorry if I come across like I'm arguing. Genuinely grateful for everyone's input even if the answers aren't what I hoped to hear. This is stressfull to be told you can no longer work at your profession after 30 years.

Is there some sort of course I could do that would just cover electric shower that will satisfy RECI. I'm 50 now. This has been my profession for 30 years at the same time I can't serve another 4 year apprenticeship. I know alarm installers are allowed to work on a fuseboard & they aren't REC. Not that I want to go near a fuseboard

Electricman

Sleeper12 wrote: »

. I know alarm installers are allowed to work on a fuseboard & they aren't REC. Not that I want to go near a fuseboard

This statement is totally incorrect. Check out this link,

https://www.psa.gov.ie/en/PSA/Pages/NS15000037

I fully understand your situation, you need to get clarification in writing from the CER not from RECI

Sleeper12

Electricman wrote:

I fully understand your situation, you need to get clarification in writing from the CER not from RECI

I might try get a meeting with someone from CER.
Another one of my autistic foibles is admitting when I'm wrong doesn't sit tools well with me.

Thanks to everyone who gave me advice. It might not have come across properly but I genuinely do appreciate it.

2011

I had email correspondence with CER and posted the emails in the forum charter.
Have a read of the unedited email exchange here:

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=91119951&postcount=290

Sleeper12

2011 wrote:

I had email correspondence with CER and posted the emails in the forum charter. Have a read of the unedited email exchange here:

I will do when I'm finished work. Thanks

Sleeper12

Sir Arthur Daley I was only thinking the other day that I hadn't seen him online in awhile. Turns out its 2.5 years.

Bruthal

2011 wrote: »

I had email correspondence with CER and posted the emails in the forum charter.
Have a read of the unedited email exchange here:

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=91119951&postcount=290

Yes, interestingly, out as far as the spur needs to be tested, certified etc by a REC. After the spur, 230v suddenly becomes much safer.

Phil.x

All these new rules and regs about who can and cannot do what is a joke.

All its there for is to try and stop the black market, and confuse most sparks as to what they can do legit.

Are these rules just for the domestic?

Sleeper12

Phil.x wrote:

All its there for is to try and stop the black market, and confuse most sparks as to what they can do legit.

I disagree. A lot of plumbers replacing showers don’t care how the original installation was done. They just say well my end is done correctly and if it's wired wrong from 20 years ago then it's nothing to do with me.
My only issue is that plumbers should be able to upskill on this the same way they can in the UK. Train & pass a test just for electric showers. To say to someone that showers have been part of their job since train that you can't do it anymore isn't right. They should be offered the chance to upskill. Over 95%of electric showers are replaced & repaired by plumbers. I don't believe they will stop this & it makes more sense to train them imo

EHP

Phil.x wrote: »

Are these rules just for the domestic?

Under the current rules it is only domestic is affected for NON RECS all areas commercial, domestic and industrial are under these rules for RECS. What this means is a NON REC can work on a fuse board in a factory and not cert anything but legally cannot work on his own or any domestic fuse board where a REC can work on all fuse boards but has to cert all his Controlled or Restricted works in all industry's.

No electrician should be confused about what they can and cant do, but to try and give a general guide and this does not cover everything so if in doubt contact a REC, Safe Electric or ask here and I will try and answer.

If completing any works on a fuse board in domestic a REC is needed, this work must be certified

All electrical works in any of the Zones in Bathrooms in Domestic a REC is needed, this work must be certified

Replace broken socket add socket to existing circuit same with lights and wiring heating from the spur this is minor works and non RECS can complete, if completed by a REC the owner can request a cert.

I believe the CER will introduce these rules across all industries in time but for now this is the way it is.

The only real way of getting rid of black-market work is to hold the homeowner liable, when this happens I think it will open the door for plumbing works to get some sort of certification.

Sleeper12

EHP wrote: »

Under the current rules it is only domestic is affected for NON RECS all areas commercial, domestic and industrial are under these rules for RECS. What this means is a NON REC can work on a fuse board in a factory and not cert anything but legally cannot work on his own or any domestic fuse board where a REC can work on all fuse boards but has to cert all his Controlled or Restricted works in all industry's.

No electrician should be confused about what they can and cant do, but to try and give a general guide and this does not cover everything so if in doubt contact a REC, Safe Electric or ask here and I will try and answer.

If completing any works on a fuse board in domestic a REC is needed, this work must be certified

All electrical works in any of the Zones in Bathrooms in Domestic a REC is needed, this work must be certified

Replace broken socket add socket to existing circuit same with lights and wiring heating from the spur this is minor works and non RECS can complete, if completed by a REC the owner can request a cert.

I believe the CER will introduce these rules across all industries in time but for now this is the way it is.

The only real way of getting rid of black-market work is to hold the homeowner liable, when this happens I think it will open the door for plumbing works to get some sort of certification.

Totally agree here. Tradesmen usually don't buy electric showers in woodies & B&Q as they are cheaper at the trade counter. Yet these DIY stores sell tens of thousands every year. Apart from some dodgy tradesmen there is a lot of restricted work being dome by homeowners. They need to be held accountable. Personally I believe electric showers shouldn't be marketed as a DIY product or sold in DIY stores. It sends the wrong signal imo

2011

Sleeper12 wrote: »

Personally I believe electric showers shouldn't be marketed as a DIY product or sold in DIY stores. It sends the wrong signal imo

DIY stores will always sell instantaneous showers because there is always a market for them, that's business. If DIY stores were somehow prevented from selling these units they would simply be sourced elsewhere, it solves nothing.

If the sale of these units is restricted to those that are deemed "suitably qualified" from an installation perspective not only would it be impossible to police, but it would encourage an instantaneous shower black market :D

EHP

2011 wrote: »

DIY stores will always sell instantaneous showers because there is always a market for them, that's business. If DIY stores were somehow prevented from selling these units they would simply be sourced elsewhere, it solves nothing.

If the sale of these units is restricted to those that are deemed "suitably qualified" from an installation perspective not only would it be impossible to police, but it would encourage an instantaneous shower black market :D

Alot of suppliers are now only selling gas parts to RGII guys nothing stopping showers and fuse board parts from being regulated to RECI members only. This will be more viable when the rules cover commercial and industrial as well.

2011

EHP wrote: »

Alot of suppliers are now only selling gas parts to RGII guys nothing stopping showers and fuse board parts from being regulated to RECI members only.

You are joking, right??

It is not the role of DIY stores or electrical wholesalers to police the sale of electrical components. Their aim is to sell to people that will pay, end of. They can have enough trouble getting paid from a small minority of RECs at times. It is unfair to expect them to turn away a cash paying customer.

Dublin is a one hour drive from the border with Northern Ireland, what is to stop someone driving up?? Will customs be searching cars for illegal electrical components?? :D:D

Instantaneous showers, MCBs, fuses, busbar and every electrical component imaginable can be bought on the internet, how do you prevent people buying these devices online??

This will be more viable when the rules cover commercial and industrial as well.

Not a chance.

I have placed orders for and taken delivery of distribution panels, VSDs, transformers, air circuit breakers etc.. for sizable contracts over the last few years. Are you seriously suggesting that I will no longer be able to do this on the basis that my company is not a REC?

EHP

2011 wrote: »

You are joking, right??

It is not the role of DIY stores or electrical wholesalers to police the sale of electrical components. Their aim is to sell to people that will pay, end of. They can have enough trouble getting paid from a small minority of RECs at times. It is unfair to expect them to turn away a cash paying customer.

Dublin is a one hour drive from the border with Northern Ireland, what is to stop someone driving up?? Will customs be searching cars for illegal electrical components?? :D:D

Instantaneous showers, MCBs, fuses, busbar and every electrical component imaginable can be bought on the internet, how do you prevent people buying these devices online??




Not a chance.

I have placed orders for and taken delivery of distribution panels, VSDs, transformers, air circuit breakers etc.. for sizable contracts over the last few years. Are you seriously suggesting that I will no longer be able to do this on the basis that my company is not a REC?

Heatmerchants/hevac currently wont sell gas parts to anyone who isn't RGII, other suppliers will of course but they have taken a stand on this and I think the rest will follow them if not the CER will probably make them.
All Im suggesting is that a Non REC shouldn't be able to purchase a shower for example, legally they cant install it in domestic and these rules will come into commercial etc eventually same as gas rules are currently being developed to be introduced to commercial and other areas. If your not a REC and ordering distribution panels etc for commercial and industrial at the moment thats allowed and why would you become a REC if only in these areas, but if the rules extend to cover these areas you should have to be a REC to purchase these. No Non REC should be able to purchase products that would require a REC to install but until the rules extend to all areas this would be impossible to control.
I do believe it is the role of DIY stores etc not to sell to people not legally able to use the products they are selling them but at the moment there is nothing stopping them.

Phil.x

EHP wrote: »

Under the current rules it is only domestic is affected for NON RECS all areas commercial, domestic and industrial are under these rules for RECS. What this means is a NON REC can work on a fuse board in a factory and not cert anything but legally cannot work on his own or any domestic fuse board where a REC can work on all fuse boards but has to cert all his Controlled or Restricted works in all industry's.

What do you mean "work on his own" as in self-employed or just working on his lonesome.

EHP

Phil.x wrote: »

What do you mean "work on his own" as in self-employed or just working on his lonesome.

I meant any NON REC cannot work on his fuse board in his home legally, so if your a qualified electrician but not registered you legally cant work on any fuse board in a domestic setting.

2011

EHP wrote: »

All Im suggesting is that a Non REC shouldn't be able to purchase a shower for example, legally they cant install it in domestic and these rules will come into commercial etc eventually same as gas rules are currently being developed to be introduced to commercial and other areas.

So how do you think this will be enforced based on the comments I made in my last post about proximity to Northern Ireland, and availability of components online??

No Non REC should be able to purchase products that would require an REC to install but until the rules extend to all areas this would be impossible to control.

My point is that it will always be impossible to control.

I do believe it is the role of DIY stores etc not to sell to people not legally able to use the products they are selling them but at the moment there is nothing stopping them.

Really? who will compensate these stores for loss of revenue, the tax payer?? What is to stop an unscrupulous REC or supplier from selling shower units to non-RECs at an inflated price??

Why should I not be able to purchase distribution boards, I design them?? Most of them are installed outside Ireland, if they are installed in Ireland it is by an REC. For contractual / tender / scheduling reasons we normally purchase the panels and free issue to the electrical contractor.

Phil.x

EHP wrote: »

I meant any NON REC cannot work on his fuse board in his home legally, so if your a qualified electrician but not registered you legally cant work on any fuse board in a domestic setting.

So basically the government wants all sparks to be self-employed or make the ones who are very rich through regulation, like the way taxis were in the past.

EHP

Phil.x wrote: »

So basically the government wants all sparks to be self-employed or make the ones who are very rich through regulation, like the way taxis were in the past.

ok so I wasnt 100% clear RECS or employees of RECs can complete restricted works but the REC has to cert this work as such making the REC responsible for the work. This is already a legal requirement has been since 2013, Safe Electric/CER are now starting to enforce these rules.

2011

@ EHP, I think you are getting confused. CER have no issue with non-RECs replacing instantaneous showers. They have made this very clear, so why restrict the sale of these units?

Edit: I was wrong, see post #49

EHP

2011 wrote: »

So how do you think this will be enforced based on the comments I made in my last post about proximity to Northern Ireland, and availability of components online??




My point is that it will always be impossible to control.



Really? who will compensate these stores for loss of revenue, the tax payer?? What is to stop an unscrupulous REC or supplier from selling shower units to non-RECs at an inflated price??

Why should I not be able to purchase distribution boards, I design them?? Most of them are installed outside Ireland, if they are installed in Ireland it is by an REC. For contractual / tender / scheduling reasons we normally purchase the panels and free issue to the electrical contractor.

Not every law is 100% enforceable doesn't mean it wouldn't have a positive effect on the industry again homeowners need to be held liable is the only way forward for this. What Im suggesting is Paddy down the road who is not a REC and is not within the industry shouldn't be able to buy products where only a REC can install. I dont believe DIY shops will close down over this but I could be wrong, I hope there not relying on showers and fuse board components to stay open.:):)
If your in the industry and not installing and just selling on the products to RECs or out of the country Im sure something would be in the rules for that.

Im not trying to put you out of a job just trying to suggest ways of stopping DIYers from interfering with Electrical Works not saying what I suggest is the best way just an option.

EHP

2011 wrote: »

@ EHP, I think you are getting confused. CER have no issue with non-RECs replacing instantaneous showers. They have made this very clear, so why restrict the sale of these units?

CER have made it very clear in there rules that Non RECs cannot work on the electrics in a shower as per the rule below taken direct from there document on Restricted works and as I have had confirmed direct from RECI. Rule 2 deals with Part 7 which covers areas around showers and baths. The CER will prosecute any Non REC found to have worked on the electrical side of a shower

Restricted Electrical Works will cover:

1. the installation, commissioning, inspection and testing of a new Electrical Installation
which is fixed, fastened or mounted or otherwise secured so that its position does not
change and requires connection or re-connection to the distribution network or the
transmission network, as the case may be;

2. the modification, installation or replacement of a Distribution Board including
customer tails on either side of the Main Protective Device or of an Electrical
Installation in any of the special locations listed in Part 7 of the National Rules for
Electrical Installations, as the case may be;

3. the installation or replacement of one or more circuits in an Electrical Installation,
including the installation of one or more additional protective devices for such circuits
on a Distribution Board; or

4. the inspection, testing or certification of, or reporting on, existing Electrical
Installations covered by Chapter 62 of the National Rules for Electrical Installations;

in a Domestic Property.

Sleeper12

2011 wrote: »

@ EHP, I think you are getting confused. CER have no issue with non-RECs replacing instantaneous showers. They have made this very clear, so why restrict the sale of these units?

This is what I wanted to hear when I started this thread but I thought it was proved earlier on in the thread that CER don't want us replacing electric showers anymore? I'd be very happy if you are right on this but I'm not sure you are

17larsson

Maybe it's not against regulations for a plumber to replace an electric shower but personally I don't like it. I could never install/replace/check a shower without doing a loop test on it, I don't think I could actually sleep at night if I didn't do that.
As competent as a plumber is and regardless of how many showers they have installed over the years I doubt many carry calibrated meters in their vans

EHP

It is illegal for any Non REC to work on the Electrical side of any shower in a domestic setting. A plumber cannot replace a shower without a REC if they do they are not only putting there customer at risk but are also putting themselves at risk of prosecution.

2011

EHP wrote: »

It is illegal for any Non REC to work on the Electrical side of any shower in a domestic setting. A plumber cannot replace a shower without a REC if they do they are not only putting there customer at risk but are also putting themselves at risk of prosecution.

That is incorrect.
Have a read of the Commission for Energy Regulation's Decision on the Scope of Restricted Electrical Works .

The CER when defining Controlled Electrical Work recognised that a certain amount of Do-It-Yourself (or "DIY") electrical installation work is a feature of electrical installations in domestic premises in this country and generally involves "like for like" replacements......

Also:

To summarise, the regulatory framework for electrical safety up to now before the introduction of Restricted Works involves the certification of Controlled Electrical Works (compulsory if completed by REC) and Minor Electrical Works (non-compulsory)......

Controlled electrical works require a REC. Like for like replacement of a shower doesn't fall under this definition. Controlled electrical works are defined by CER as:

Controlled Works are major electrical installation works (including additions, alterations and/or extensions) which are covered by the National Wiring Rules and which involve:
1. the installation, commissioning, inspection, and testing of a new fixed electrical installation requiring connection or reconnection to the electricity network;
2. the installation or replacement of a Distribution Board or Consumer Unit, or new installation in special locations as defined in Part 7 of the National Wiring Rules ET101 and ET105;
3. the installation or replacement of one or more extra circuits in an existing installation, including the installation of one or more additional protective devices for such circuits on a distribution board;
4. Subsystems installed in Commercial, Industrial, and Domestic installations where the installation falls within the remit of the National Wiring Rules;
5. the inspection, testing and certification of existing electrical installations (in accordance with Chapter 62 of the Wiring Rules (ET 101 ?Fourth Edition- 2008 and to conform with Regulation 89 of SI No 732 of 2007).

EHP

@2011 You are referring to controlled works which are works only recommended to be completed by a REC and if so the REC must cert. Restricted works are works that can only be legally completed by a REC and Part 7 is mentioned here also. It is illegal for any non REC to work on the electrical side of a shower in a domestic setting and the CER/Safe Electric will prosecute anyone found doing so.

2011

EHP wrote: »

It is illegal for any non REC to work on the electrical side of a shower in a domestic setting and the CER/Safe Electric will prosecute anyone found doing so.

I could not find anything to support this, so I rang CER this morning.
To my surprise you are correct because a bathroom is a "special location".
Other special locations include saunas, milking parlours and swimming pools. Only a REC may electrically connect a shower, light, fan or any other electrical appliance in a bathroom. The circuit supplying this device must then be retested.

So apologies EHP, you have highlighted something important. I will amend the forum charter to reflect this.

EHP

2011 wrote: »

I could not find anything to support this, so I rang CER this morning.
To my surprise you are correct because a bathroom is a "special location".
Other special locations include saunas, milking parlours and swimming pools. Only a REC may electrically connect a shower, light, fan or any other electrical appliance in a bathroom. The circuit supplying this device must then be retested.

Thanks for taking the time to contact the CER to clarify this issue for everyone.

2011 wrote: »

So apologies EHP, you have highlighted something important. I will amend the forum charter to reflect this.

No apologies needed here

Phil.x

2011 wrote: »

I could not find anything to support this, so I rang CER this morning.
To my surprise you are correct because a bathroom is a "special location".
Other special locations include saunas, milking parlours and swimming pools. Only a REC may electrically connect a shower, light, fan or any other electrical appliance in a bathroom. The circuit supplying this device must then be retested.

So apologies EHP, you have highlighted something important. I will amend the forum charter to reflect this.

Could a non rec sparks do this work and pay a rec sparks to cert it?