Marking scorecard question.

shane1981

Hi All, newbie question on marking the score card.

In a competition, what is the process involved in marking your opponents score card? Do i need to witness each stroke made or do I play my own game and just ask for his/her score on completion of the hole?

Barnaboy

shane1981 wrote: »

Hi All, newbie question on marking the score card.

In a competition, what is the process involved in marking your opponents score card? Do i need to witness each stroke made or do I play my own game and just ask for his/her score on completion of the hole?

If you are marking someone's card then you should be keeping an eye on them. Some people can be a little forgetful if not watched. Have to say though that cheats are rare enough despite what you might think reading boards!

ShriekingSheet

It's a good question.

What will happen is that as you get more experience playing competition golf, you won't actually need to pay much attention to the guy. You'll develop a sense of what he's doing, and a natural alarm bell if he calls out 4 after hitting 5 shots.

In the meantime, the best advice would be to keep an eye, and definitely mark every score after every hole, checking with the player if you're unsure. Don't leave it to mark every 3 or 4 holes like some do, because you'll struggle to recall then.

Hoof Hearted2

ShriekingSheet wrote: »

It's a good question.

What will happen is that as you get more experience playing competition golf, you won't actually need to pay much attention to the guy. You'll develop a sense of what he's doing, and a natural alarm bell if he calls out 4 after hitting 5 shots.

In the meantime, the best advice would be to keep an eye, and definitely mark every score after every hole, checking with the player if you're unsure. Don't leave it to mark every 3 or 4 holes like some do, because you'll struggle to recall then.

Agree with this, after a bit of time you'll naturally know what the other player shot with out having to stalk him.
I would also agree with marking the scorecard after every hole, it's best practice and saves avoidable confusion later, I would also always confirm the score with the player after every hole as I would always naturally confirm my score with my card marker, again it avoids potential confusion later on.

Armchair Andy

Is it necessary to mark a players SF points in a comp? I always do but there are some who don't.

dan_ep82

Armchair Andy wrote: »

Is it necessary to mark a players SF points in a comp? I always do but there are some who don't.

I don't, i usually make a mistake 4 out of 5 times somewhere on the card.

I will ask the player to call out his points if he wants them wrote in though.

BigChap1759

dan_ep82 wrote: »

I don't, i usually make a mistake 4 out of 5 times somewhere on the card.

I will ask the player to call out his points if he wants them wrote in though.

This is a serious pet hate of mine - just sheer laziness not to mark your partners stableford score, absolutely no excuse for not doing so. Very bad etiquette in my book

It's not rocket science is it?

Rikand

BigChap1759 wrote: »

This is a serious pet hate of mine - just sheer laziness not to mark your partners stableford score, absolutely no excuse for not doing so. Very bad etiquette in my book

It's not rocket science is it?

Sure its as simple as 1+1=3!

Jawgap

In marking the card you're not responsible for watching the player, working out points or tallying the final total. As a marker you are required to accompany the player, which effectively just means playing in the same group.

You mark the strokes he/she declares, sign it and the committee does the rest. Anything beyond the minimum described in the rules is a courtesy to the player. It's also a good idea to initial any changes, crossings out etc. (But not a requirement).

If you have an issue with a declared score you can ask to confirm, but if they insist it's their score you should enter it, sign the card (you're signing just to say you marked it, not that the scores are correct) and report any concerns to the committee for them to sort out.

dan_ep82

BigChap1759 wrote: »

This is a serious pet hate of mine - just sheer laziness not to mark your partners stableford score, absolutely no excuse for not doing so. Very bad etiquette in my book

It's not rocket science is it?

Wow

Sounds like a bit more than a pet hate. Is it the fact that I generally make a mistake or the fact I have the cheek to ask them to call out their points if they want them filled in that frustrates you so much?

Never once have I come across anyone who got angry when I mention this on a course so I'm guessing this is just another one of those internet land arguments that never make it to the course.

Hoof Hearted2

Armchair Andy wrote: »

Is it necessary to mark a players SF points in a comp? I always do but there are some who don't.

Not necessary but it is good etiquette and courteous.

dan_ep82 wrote: »

I don't, i usually make a mistake 4 out of 5 times somewhere on the card.

I will ask the player to call out his points if he wants them wrote in though.

Doesn't matter if you make a mistake in the stableford calculation, you should always attempt to convert and in no time you be able to work the stableford points without having to think much about it.

If you are worried that a card maybe DQ'd because the stableford calculation is incorrect, then don't worry it won't, as long as the actual number of strokes taken on the hole is recorded correctly on the card that's all that matters.

ronjo

BigChap1759 wrote: »

This is a serious pet hate of mine - just sheer laziness not to mark your partners stableford score, absolutely no excuse for not doing so. Very bad etiquette in my book

It's not rocket science is it?

This might sound like a stupid question but why do you need to do this?

I play in Central Europe and the handicaps are stored in countrys central database so the tournament organiser just enters the scores on each hole and it automatically gives stableford for each person and adjusts handicap accordingly

Hoof Hearted2

ronjo wrote: »

This might sound like a stupid question but why do you need to do this?

I play in Central Europe and the handicaps are stored in countrys central database so the tournament organiser just enters the scores on each hole and it automatically gives stableford for each person and adjusts handicap accordingly

He's talking about on the scorecard, the software automatically calculates the stableford pts when imputing on the computer.
Why would you need a tournament organised to input the score for you on the computer, in Ireland the player does this.

ronjo

Hoof Hearted2 wrote: »

He's talking about on the scorecard, the software automatically calculates the stableford pts when imputing on the computer.
Why would you need a tournament organised to input the score for you on the computer, in Ireland the player does this.

We dont have access to do this.

BigChap1759

dan_ep82 wrote: »

Wow

Sounds like a bit more than a pet hate. Is it the fact that I generally make a mistake or the fact I have the cheek to ask them to call out their points if they want them filled in that frustrates you so much?

Never once have I come across anyone who got angry when I mention this on a course so I'm guessing this is just another one of those internet land arguments that never make it to the course.

It's a pet hate - that doesn't mean I'd get angry and tackle someone on it - that would be weird and ott ?!

No issue with making mistakes at all, I'd say there are mistakes on the card at least 50% of the time and are soon corrected after a small run through. I just think it's poor form to not bother at all when the vast majority do

dan_ep82

BigChap1759 wrote: »

It's a pet hate - that doesn't mean I'd get angry and tackle someone on it - that would be weird and ott ?!

No issue with making mistakes at all, I'd say there are mistakes on the card at least 50% of the time and are soon corrected after a small run through. I just think it's poor form to not bother at all when the vast majority do

Come now theres a huge difference in tone from this to your original post, it certainly felt OTT and to be fair my reply to it wasn't exactly grown up so lets leave it there.

I always mention this to playing partners and if they still wish to have points marked I will ask them to confirm the points and do my best. The end result is they either get their points marked or say they don't mind. Everyones happy

ShriekingSheet

Armchair Andy wrote: »

Is it necessary to mark a players SF points in a comp? I always do but there are some who don't.

BigChap1759 wrote: »

This is a serious pet hate of mine - just sheer laziness not to mark your partners stableford score, absolutely no excuse for not doing so. Very bad etiquette in my book

It's not rocket science is it?

Feck sake lads, there's a really simple solution. All you have to do is say "4 for 2 there" when you hole out. Some guys aren't razor sharp at calculating points. I play with guys off very different handicaps to mine quite often, and it's pretty understandable that they have to check/think about indices when marking a lower handicap card.

So why not just help them out by saying the strokes and points to them? Especially if you're going to get your knickers in a twist if they don't mark both.

ShriekingSheet

Jawgap wrote: »

In marking the card you're not responsible for watching the player, working out points or tallying the final total. As a marker you are required to accompany the player, which effectively just means playing in the same group.

You mark the strokes he/she declares, sign it and the committee does the rest. Anything beyond the minimum described in the rules is a courtesy to the player. It's also a good idea to initial any changes, crossings out etc. (But not a requirement).

If you have an issue with a declared score you can ask to confirm, but if they insist it's their score you should enter it, sign the card (you're signing just to say you marked it, not that the scores are correct) and report any concerns to the committee for them to sort out.

Don't agree with this at all.

In my view, you're taking the letter of the law and ignoring the spirit of it. Most golf rules are black and white, but this one is not. You have a duty to the rest of the field to ensure the card you're marking is legit. No one expects a card marker to closely observe every shot, but to say that you're blindly accepting scores declared by a player is absolutely not in the spirit of the rules.

If a guy obviously takes the piss, the card marker has a responsibility to all competitors. If you're saying you'd sign the card of a blatant cheater and report the issue to the committee, that isn't going to cut the mustard a lot of the time. It's difficult for the committee to act when they have a signed and sealed card in the box.

You simply have the option of not putting your name to the score, and it's DQ for the guy. None of us enjoy confrontation/drama, but if you bottle it, you're letting the rest of the players down.

Jawgap

ShriekingSheet wrote: »

Don't agree with this at all.

In my view, you're taking the letter of the law and ignoring the spirit of it. Most golf rules are black and white, but this one is not. You have a duty to the rest of the field to ensure the card you're marking is legit. No one expects a card marker to closely observe every shot, but to say that you're blindly accepting scores declared by a player is absolutely not in the spirit of the rules.

If a guy obviously takes the piss, the card marker has a responsibility to all competitors. If you're saying you'd sign the card of a blatant cheater and report the issue to the committee, that isn't going to cut the mustard a lot of the time. It's difficult for the committee to act when they have a signed and sealed card in the box.

You simply have the option of not putting your name to the score, and it's DQ for the guy. None of us enjoy confrontation/drama, but if you bottle it, you're letting the rest of the players down.

Really?, perhaps you'd point to the rule I missed?

If you have an issue, you sign the card and report the facts to the committee to sort out.

Rule 6.6a.......

Recording Scores

After each hole the marker should check the score with the competitor and record it. On completion of the round the marker must sign the score card and hand it to the competitor. If more than one marker records the scores, each must sign for the part for which he is responsible.

(My emphasis added)

Rule 6.6d

The competitor is responsible for the correctness of the score recorded for each hole on his score card. If he returns a score for any hole lower than actually taken, he is disqualified. If he returns a score for any hole higher than actually taken, the score as returned stands.

I don't believe there's anything in the etiquette section on marking up a card beyond what's required in the rules?

EDIT: and yes, if I had an issue with a player, I'd sign his card and report my concerns to the committee......that's what we were told is the correct procedure at the Rules School

Felexicon

ShriekingSheet wrote: »

Feck sake lads, there's a really simple solution. All you have to do is say "4 for 2 there" when you hole out. Some guys aren't razor sharp at calculating points. I play with guys off very different handicaps to mine quite often, and it's pretty understandable that they have to check/think about indices when marking a lower handicap card.

So why not just help them out by saying the strokes and points to them? Especially if you're going to get your knickers in a twist if they don't mark both.

That's the way I usually call it out. Takes any confusion out of it.

Seve OB

Jawgap wrote: »

......that's what we were told is the correct procedure at the Rules School

where is the Rules School?

Seve OB

Hoof Hearted2 wrote: »

He's talking about on the scorecard, the software automatically calculates the stableford pts when imputing on the computer.
Why would you need a tournament organised to input the score for you on the computer, in Ireland the player does this.

ronjo wrote: »

We dont have access to do this.

Ya wha Gay?

Jawgap

Seve OB wrote: »

where is the Rules School?

They run them (the Level 2 Schools) at Carton once or twice per year......definitely worth giving up a weekend, although if you're not a fan of exams you might want to give it a miss......

....if you top the class you get to go to St Andrews to do the Level 3 (Tournament Administrators and Referees School) there, otherwise you just have to wait until the GUI do one here.

....Level 2, assuming you score high enough, allows you to officiate as an assistant referee at branch comps, and obviously anything run at club level.

More info here.....

http://www.randa.org/RulesEquipment/Rules/Rules-Education

The next Level 2 is in October in Athlone....

http://www.randa.org/RulesEquipment/Rules/Rules-Education/Rules-Schools

spacecoyote

It bothers me having to call out my points to someone though, it makes me too conscious of my score.

I know that generally speaking I know where I am score wise, but I try not to be focussed on it so I'd rather not have to tell my marker how I scored points-wise after each hole.

Hoof Hearted2

Seve OB wrote: »

Ya wha Gay?

Sorry I don't speak Ballymun, can you speak English please.

ziggy

This post has been deleted.

Seve OB

Hoof Hearted2 wrote: »

Sorry I don't speak Ballymun, can you speak English please.

lol, maybe to young to remember the baul Gaybo on the tv/radio? I think he was from Howth actually and not Ballymun, possible you are mixing him up with yer man Hewson.

Anyway, it's a catchphrase. lets just say I'm bewildered that ronjo has no access to the computer.

Hoof Hearted2

ziggy wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

If the marker is paying attention, he won't have to ask the person what they had after every hole, but the marker should always verbally confirm the score with the player after every hole. There are a whole host of scenarios where the player may have incurred a penalty that the marker or anyone else does know about, only the player, so always confirm the players score with him after every hole.

Felexicon

Hoof Hearted2 wrote: »

If the marker is paying attention, he won't have to ask the person what they had after every hole, but the marker should always verbally confirm the score with the player after every hole. There are a whole host of scenarios where the player may have incurred a penalty that the marker or anyone else does know about, only the player, so always confirm the players score with him after every hole.

Ah here pal. I have enough to be worrying about keeping track of my ball never mind trying to count someone else's shots. If the chap tells me he got a 4 it's a 4. If he claims a hole in 1 on a par 5 so be it. It's only himself he's cheating at the end of the day

Hoof Hearted2

Felexicon wrote: »

Ah here pal. I have enough to be worrying about keeping track of my ball never mind trying to count someone else's shots. If the chap tells me he got a 4 it's a 4. If he claims a hole in 1 on a par 5 so be it. It's only himself he's cheating at the end of the day

Ah howrya buddy, are you sure 'bout dat???

Seve OB

Hoof Hearted2 wrote: »

Ah howrya buddy, are you sure 'bout dat???

lmao

is the Ballymun coming back to you now

Felexicon

Hoof Hearted2 wrote: »

Ah howrya buddy, are you sure 'bout dat???

Absolutely. If it means that much to him let him have it.

Hoof Hearted2

Felexicon wrote: »

Absolutely. If it means that much to him let him have it.

I want you play in my group every week, I can just see it now.

Me: "I had a 5 or 6", but stick me down for a one.
You: "No bother boss, whatever you say boss".

Felexicon

Hoof Hearted2 wrote: »

I want you play in my group every week, I can just see it now.

Me: "I had a 5 or 6", but stick me down for a one.
You: "No bother boss, whatever you say boss".

Would you argue with someone over the score they state? I couldn't be arsed tbh.

Hoof Hearted2

Felexicon wrote: »

Would you argue with someone over the score they state? I couldn't be arsed tbh.

Shakes heads, strange folk indeed up around the hill of Tara.

Is that the only way ye communicate in Meade?, argue with each other, there are other ways to communicate you know!

Felexicon

Hoof Hearted2 wrote: »

Shakes heads, strange folk indeed up around the hill of Tara.

Is that the only way ye communicate in Meade?, argue with each other, there are other ways to communicate you know!

You're not very good at this wind up thing you're trying

Hoof Hearted2

Felexicon wrote: »

You're not very good at this wind up thing you're trying

No wind up here bro, but clearly you are on one, because nobody could be that stupid.

Felexicon

Hoof Hearted2 wrote: »

No wind up here bro, but clearly you are on one, because nobody could be that stupid.

This would be the way I'd go about it.

Me: What did you have there pal
Other Lad(OL): 5 for me

Me to myself: Jesus I'd swear I saw him hack at that twice out of the rough. Ah sure not worth the hassle of calling him on it. I'll just get him to clarify again.

Me: 5 for 2 was it?
OL: Yep
Me: Grand Stuff

Keano

It's been dealt with

ronjo

Seve OB wrote: »

Ya wha Gay?

All players here do is update the scorecard, sign it and hand it in to clubs reception. They then enter to "de computer" which updates the handicap.

Here in Slovakia the handicaps are all held in a central database so I can enter any open tournament in any club and they know my handicap. 95% of competitions here are open so many people just register at one club and then play comps at all different ones.

Johnny_Fontane

A little OT, but recently got a NR because my score wasnt entered into the computer. I was going to do it, but guy I was playing with entered it in, asked him if he wanted a hand with calling out the scores, but he said, he'd do it.

Signed my card, looked all great and handed it in.

Big fat NR on monday morning including a call from the handicap secretary. his advice was to always make sure I enter the card myself (:o:o). I would have thought that a signed and completed card was the deciding factor, but apparently, if you dont put the score in right on the computer, you get a NR.

Anyone else know anything about this?

Hoboo

ronjo wrote: »

All players here do is update the scorecard, sign it and hand it in to clubs reception. They then enter to "de computer" which updates the handicap.

Here in Slovakia the handicaps are all held in a central database so I can enter any open tournament in any club and they know my handicap.

Same as Ireland?!!

CMOTDibbler

Johnny_Fontane wrote: »

A little OT, but recently got a NR because my score wasnt entered into the computer. I was going to do it, but guy I was playing with entered it in, asked him if he wanted a hand with calling out the scores, but he said, he'd do it.

Signed my card, looked all great and handed it in.

Big fat NR on monday morning including a call from the handicap secretary. his advice was to always make sure I enter the card myself (:o:o). I would have thought that a signed and completed card was the deciding factor, but apparently, if you dont put the score in right on the computer, you get a NR.

Anyone else know anything about this?

That's a bit mean. A few times, I've been late back in a competition after the office has closed and just dropped the cards in the letter box provided. Handicap Sec. entered the scores after,

It's obviously helpful to do it yourself, but it shouldn't be an absolute requirement. Your card is the primary record of your score.

Hoboo

Johnny_Fontane wrote: »

A little OT, but recently got a NR because my score wasnt entered into the computer. I was going to do it, but guy I was playing with entered it in, asked him if he wanted a hand with calling out the scores, but he said, he'd do it.

Signed my card, looked all great and handed it in.

Big fat NR on monday morning including a call from the handicap secretary. his advice was to always make sure I enter the card myself (:o:o). I would have thought that a signed and completed card was the deciding factor, but apparently, if you dont put the score in right on the computer, you get a NR.

Anyone else know anything about this?

The card score should have counted. Computer is only for admin purposes, local rule can result in disciplinary action but not a DQ. Rule 6-6b/8.

Armchair Andy

Hoboo wrote:

The card score should have counted. Computer is only for admin purposes, local rule can result in disciplinary action but not a DQ. Rule 6-6b/8.

Must've been a local rule, has happened to me too in away courses.

Senna

Not sure if it's the same everywhere, but in our club the comp is always closed out that night, so it could be 10.30pm in summer, comp secretary has enough to do, asking them to start entering missed scores is a bit much.

ShriekingSheet

Jawgap wrote: »

Really?, perhaps you'd point to the rule I missed?

If you have an issue, you sign the card and report the facts to the committee to sort out.

Rule 6.6a.......

Recording Scores



(My emphasis added)

Rule 6.6d


I don't believe there's anything in the etiquette section on marking up a card beyond what's required in the rules?

EDIT: and yes, if I had an issue with a player, I'd sign his card and report my concerns to the committee......that's what we were told is the correct procedure at the Rules School

Haha. You should get your money back from that Rules School. Took me 30 seconds to look this up.

"A marker is not obliged to sign a card he believes to be incorrect". (Decision 6-6a/4)

Also, take a look at Decision 1-3/6 and 6-6a/5.

Not only do they not have to sign, a marker who knowingly signs for a wrong score card (which is what you are advising) is himself disqualified.

The marker is also responsible for calling / applying penalties the player might not be aware of. If he signs for a score where he knows a penalty should have been added, again he is DQ as well as the player.

And proper order too.

The Decisions book adds this kind of common sense / cop on to many of the rules. How stupid would it be if a marker had to only write down what a player said he had, ignoring all other evidence? And then put his name to a false score card? Use your head.

Jawgap

ShriekingSheet wrote: »

Haha. You should get your money back from that Rules School. Took me 30 seconds to look this up.

"A marker is not obliged to sign a card he believes to be incorrect". (Decision 6-6a/4)

Also, take a look at Decision 1-3/6 and 6-6a/5.

Not only do they not have to sign, a marker who knowingly signs for a wrong score card (which is what you are advising) is himself disqualified.

The marker is also responsible for calling / applying penalties the player might not be aware of. If he signs for a score where he knows a penalty should have been added, again he is DQ as well as the player.

And proper order too.

The Decisions book adds this kind of common sense / cop on to many of the rules. How stupid would it be if a marker had to only write down what a player said he had, ignoring all other evidence? And then put his name to a false score card? Use your head.

Ah, come on now, 6-6a/4 is headed "Marker Refuses to Sign Competitor's Card After Dispute Resolved in Favour of Competitor"

So if refers to a different set of circumstances.

6-6a5 refers to spectators referring a matter to the Committee, again not relevant to the conclusion of a round and circumstances centred on players.

And 1-3/6 (Marker Attests Wrong Score Knowingly and Competitor Aware Score Wrong) carries the element of intention to collude, which is different to a player simply disputing a score.....which is why that decision is attached Rule 1 which relates to players agreeing to waive the rules.

EDIT: actually, just checked my notes from the session.......you are right, correct procedure, if there is a doubt about a score, is to not sign the card before reporting the circumstances to the committee. 6-6a/4 then addresses what happens if the marker refuses to sign thereafter. Sorry to all readers for muddying the waters on that point.

Rikand

Felexicon wrote: »

This would be the way I'd go about it.

Me: What did you have there pal
Other Lad(OL): 5 for me

Me to myself: Jesus I'd swear I saw him hack at that twice out of the rough. Ah sure not worth the hassle of calling him on it. I'll just get him to clarify again.

Me: 5 for 2 was it?
OL: Yep
Me: Grand Stuff

What you should be saying is :: 5? Did I not see you have two swipes in the rough ?

He'll either recant/recount at being spotted or be a brazen cnut and say one was a practice swing

Jawgap

Johnny_Fontane wrote: »

A little OT, but recently got a NR because my score wasnt entered into the computer. I was going to do it, but guy I was playing with entered it in, asked him if he wanted a hand with calling out the scores, but he said, he'd do it.

Signed my card, looked all great and handed it in.

Big fat NR on monday morning including a call from the handicap secretary. his advice was to always make sure I enter the card myself (:o:o). I would have thought that a signed and completed card was the deciding factor, but apparently, if you dont put the score in right on the computer, you get a NR.

Anyone else know anything about this?

Here's what Mr Rhodes has to say on such matters.....

Note that a Committee may not, as a condition of competition, require that competitors enter their scores into a computer and so players cannot be penalised for failing to do so (Decision 6-6b/8). However, a Committee may introduce a ‘club regulation’ to this effect and provide disciplinary sanctions, such as ruling that a player is ineligible to play in the next club competition for failure to enter their scores in a computer provided for this purpose.

ronjo

Hoboo wrote: »

Same as Ireland?!!

No idea. I have never been a member of a course in Ireland.
I was just saying how its done here.

We use CR and SR which would be different I guess.