Undercharged

talkingpj

I bought a pair of headphones at the weekend and a big retailer only charged me 90c instead of 90euro. However i saw today the balance of the money was taken in another transaction. Can retailers do this?

freeze4real

yes they can

talkingpj

freeze4real wrote: »

yes they can

How can they take a make a second transaction without my consent.

pleasant Co.

OP thread moved to consumer issues, should get the advice you need here.

njs030

Did you buy them online or in a shop? I'm guessing you paid by card?

Axwell

talkingpj wrote: »

I bought a pair of headphones at the weekend and a big retailer only charged me 90c instead of 90euro. However i saw today the balance of the money was taken in another transaction. Can retailers do this?

Were you aware of the mistake in the price at the time of paying for it at the till?

Did they enter the amount manually or scan the item and the wrong price came up?

ScouseMouse

If you presented your card in payment of 90 Euro, is that not the authorisation they need?

AudreyHepburn

talkingpj wrote: »

How can they take a make a second transaction without my consent.

You presumably gave your card or card details to pay the €90, that's consent in any court of law.

nhunter100

talkingpj wrote:

I bought a pair of headphones at the weekend and a big retailer only charged me 90c instead of 90euro. However i saw today the balance of the money was taken in another transaction. Can retailers do this?

You got your 90 euro headphones for 90 euro, what's the problem?

chuckles30

How can a retailer re-use card details?

MarkR

Probably best to talk to your bank.

ssmith6287

chuckles30 wrote: »

How can a retailer re-use card details?

because you gave the retailer your card details to purchase goods... what is the problem here?

Hollister11

Do people realise OP authorised one transaction, however the shop carried out two.

No matter how big the error, that can't be right.

Tigger

Hollister11 wrote: »

Do people realise OP authorised one transaction, however the shop carried out two.

No matter how big the error, that can't be right.

He authorised 90€
I'm sure they'll give back the 90c

Homer

Are you asking is it legal for them to make two transactions on your card or trying to weasel out of paying for what you got?

Former Former

Hollister11 wrote: »

Do people realise OP authorised one transaction, however the shop carried out two.

No matter how big the error, that can't be right.

Meh, he gave so few details that it's impossible to judge. We don't even know if it was online or instore. He/she obviously isn't that bothered about it, no point everyone else trying to speculate.

Kimbot

Was it an in store transaction or an online one??

bbari

Would OP have any issue if the same store had over charged and refunded (without asking) in the second transaction ?

AudreyHepburn

Hollister11 wrote: »

Do people realise OP authorised one transaction, however the shop carried out two.

No matter how big the error, that can't be right.

Of course we do but come on, it's 90 cent extra he got charged. It's hardly going to break the bank and I am sure they'd refund if he really wants that.

He got his product for the price he consented to pay....really not seeing the big problem here.

Treepole

I'd imagine his concern is the fact that store could just charge an amount to his card in a separate transaction without any interaction on his part.

dee_mc

AudreyHepburn wrote:

Of course we do but come on, it's 90 cent extra he got charged. It's hardly going to break the bank and I am sure they'd refund if he really wants that.

OP says they took the balance of the money - he wasn't overcharged, but charged twice (first charge 90, second charge €89.10) and presumably is wondering whether it's above board that his card details were reused without his consent. I took his question to be a query about the legality/security/ethics of taking payment to rectify the mistake, but not taking steps to let him know they had done so.

chuckles30

chuckles30 wrote: »

How can a retailer re-use card details?

ssmith6287 wrote: »

because you gave the retailer your card details to purchase goods... what is the problem here?

If I go into a shop and put my card in the machine & enter my pin, my understanding is that the retailer cannot re-use those details for further transactions. Am I missing something here?

Even when I've returned items, I have to enter my pin to process a refund.

Same goes for online shopping - I don't believe they can come back and charge a second transaction to the same card. **

If it is the case that anyone can come back and charge additional transactions, sure fraud would be widespread.

**I know there are two obvious exceptions - car hire and hotels - but in those cases I know I've provided pre-approval for charges

ScouseMouse

chuckles30 wrote: »

If I go into a shop and put my card in the machine & enter my pin, my understanding is that the retailer cannot re-use those details for further transactions. Am I missing something here?

Even when I've returned items, I have to enter my pin to process a refund.

Same goes for online shopping - I don't believe they can come back and charge a second transaction to the same card. **

If it is the case that anyone can come back and charge additional transactions, sure fraud would be widespread.

**I know there are two obvious exceptions - car hire and hotels - but in those cases I know I've provided pre-approval for charges

Or another way of looking at it is you were offered an item for 90 euro. You accepted the offer and then gave consent to charge your card 90 euro. This is what has occured.

Who says it has to be done in a single transaction?

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

chuckles30 wrote: »

If I go into a shop and put my card in the machine & enter my pin, my understanding is that the retailer cannot re-use those details for further transactions. Am I missing something here?

Even when I've returned items, I have to enter my pin to process a refund.

Same goes for online shopping - I don't believe they can come back and charge a second transaction to the same card. **

If it is the case that anyone can come back and charge additional transactions, sure fraud would be widespread.

**I know there are two obvious exceptions - car hire and hotels - but in those cases I know I've provided pre-approval for charges

Car hire companies can charge your card, after the event, if there are additional costs due to damage etc.

AlanG

Once they have your card number they can process the charge - many US cards still don't have chip and pin. The PIN is really to protect the store from clone cards, lots of retailers still take credit card payments over the phone with no PIN. If they charged you incorrectly without a PIN you would easily get the bank to take your side if you raise a dispute. In this case they have used your details as they are legally allowed to do. You can raise a dispute but you will be wasting your time.

xabi

Kamila Tangy Mascot wrote: »

Car hire companies can charge your card, after the event, if there are additional costs due to damage etc.

Thats different as you give pre-approval to charge after the event, same with Hotels, covers damage, speeding tickets, etc.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

xabi wrote: »

Thats different as you give pre-approval to charge after the event, same with Hotels, covers damage, speeding tickets, etc.

And has the OP looked at the T&Cs when he made his transaction??

This is a non-issue.

njs030

xabi wrote: »

Thats different as you give pre-approval to charge after the event, same with Hotels, covers damage, speeding tickets, etc.

How is it different? Op agreed to pay €90, paid that. Strange when he/she was only charged 90cent they didn't point it out to the till operator TBH, obviously op was aware of the mistake when they were keeping an eye on their balance.

ssmith6287

when you pay for something on a card 2 receipts are printed. 1 for customer, 1 for retailer or seller. the retailers will have your full card number. As far as I know and im no expert but for auditing purposes do retailers need to keep these on file for a number of years. the only issue I would have in your shoes is if the price paid wasn't on the receipt you were given eg. you pay 90c, the receipt from the store (not eft) shows you paid 90c and then they take the remaining balance. If you were to return the item the retailer could possibly argue that you only paid 90 cent

njs030

ssmith6287 wrote: »

If you were to return the item the retailer could possibly argue that you only paid 90 cent

No they couldnt because it's on his bank statement, op can just bring that with him/her.

rubadub

Treepole wrote: »

I'd imagine his concern is the fact that store could just charge an amount to his card in a separate transaction without any interaction on his part.

I think everyone understood this, and are just doing the usual stupid game you see in this forum, feigning ignorance/confusion -while I guess in most cases if their friend or colleague asked them the same question in real life there is no way in hell they would answer in the same manner. It's getting tiresome at this stage.

OP asked a question

talkingpj wrote: »

Can retailers do this?

seems they can, but I am interested to know in what cases and is there any way you could prevent it. Many seem to presume the OP is a scammer and treating him with disdain, I am curious to know what happens if the shop scams you, has headphones on display for say €20, you buy for €20 and later you see another payment taken and the shop claims the price tag was €50 all along.

ssmith6287

rubadub wrote: »

I think everyone understood this, and are just doing the usual stupid game you see in this forum, feigning ignorance/confusion -while I guess in most cases if their friend or colleague asked them the same question in real life there is no way in hell they would answer in the same manner. It's getting tiresome at this stage.

OP asked a question

seems they can, but I am interested to know in what cases and is there any way you could prevent it. Many seem to presume the OP is a scammer and treating him with disdain, I am curious to know what happens if the shop scams you, has headphones on display for say €20, you buy for €20 and later you see another payment taken and the shop claims the price tag was €50 all along.

Your receipt from the retailer will have the agreed price on it

rubadub

ssmith6287 wrote: »

Your receipt from the retailer will have the agreed price on it

So you could be scammed by them giving you an incorrect receipt and hoping you do not check it.

ssmith6287

th's why you check your receipt.... kinda getting away from it now

rubadub

ssmith6287 wrote: »

th's why you check your receipt.... kinda getting away from it now

more like getting to it, as in illustrating how the fact they could charge again could be an issue. The question was asked "Can retailers do this?" and you were amongst those who were (seemingly) ignorant as to how this could ever be an issue/problem.

ssmith6287 wrote: »

because you gave the retailer your card details to purchase goods... what is the problem here?

Many people do not check receipts, I see people stuff them in their wallet/purse all the time. If they were given a CC reader device and it displayed an amount and you confirmed the amount and entered a PIN they would assume the receipt will be the same.

The OP did not ask "can I scam the company using some legal loophole?" many seem to think he did.

njs030

rubadub wrote: »

more like getting to it, as in illustrating how the fact they could charge again could be an issue. The question was asked "Can retailers do this?" and you were amongst those who were (seemingly) ignorant as to how this could ever be an issue/problem.



Many people do not check receipts, I see people stuff them in their wallet/purse all the time. If they were given a CC reader device and it displayed an amount and you confirmed the amount and entered a PIN they would assume the receipt will be the same.

The OP did not ask "can I scam the company using some legal loophole?" many seem to think he did.

Almost every company uses a scanner to enter items into the till rather than manually entering prices so the price is set and linked to the barcode.

Even if they changed it using a managers key the till systems are set up to show that the price has been amended on the receipt and when you did eventually notice the extra money charged your receipt would very clearly show the price you had agreed to and a changed price further down, "many people do not check receipts" doesn't really matter, always check your receipt and these things won't happen.

Also it would be easy to prove the agreed price is €20 not €50 as its the one on the shelves with the product, when you reported the shop they would have to explain themselves.

It's a very different scenario to the one where op had seen an item for €90, agreed to pay that and knew he had paid less but hoped to get away with it.

Nervous Wreck

OP, yes they can do this, no its not fraud, yes it's widespread, no there is no comeback (unless actual fraud is committed).

ScouseMouse

Just an open question. Could knowingly accepting an undercharge or trying to be smart and banging in a complaint to whichever authority/bank, be classed as fraud?

Could it be trying to acquire good without paying for them?

wyrn

ScouseMouse wrote: »

Just an open question. Could knowingly accepting an undercharge or trying to be smart and banging in a complaint to whichever authority/bank, be classed as fraud?

Could it be trying to acquire good without paying for them?

Fraud on which side?

I doubt it from the customer's POV as they could argue Invitation to Treat. Also, the customer did pay for the item, just at a substantially lower cost. I would imagine that it goes both ways.

I find it slightly worrying that the store charged the customer a 2nd time. I didn't realise that they could hold on to the bank details (always assumed it was similar to the customer copy with only the last 4 digits showing). If the store put through a 2nd transaction on the same card, would they not need a pin number?

The hairdressers I go to, sometimes give me a very good discounted rant. It's not exactly advertised to me as it's a small place and they don't want to shout it out I suppose. What if the owner decided that the discount was too good, could they charge a 2nd time to make up the difference?

I accept that in the case of the OP, the difference was huge. it sits really uneasily with me that they went to charge them full price a 2nd time without getting in contact first. Perhaps they did try.

AvonEnniskerry

notjustsweet wrote:

It's a very different scenario to the one where op had seen an item for €90, agreed to pay that and knew he had paid less but hoped to get away with it.

Do we know that op agreed to pay 90euro... How do we know the signage in place didn't misread 90cent and the op merely took advantage of a ridiculously cheap sale price.

I'd this argument with a shop recently where my husband noticed something advertised ridiculously cheaply. The shop refused to sell him the item at the price they'd displayed. But they failed to remove the product from sale or the sign so i argued that point to get the item at the cheaper price.

In answer to ops question. Yes unfortunately they can do this. Just as insurance renewals etc can auto renew on your cards. Its no wonder in this day and age there is so much fraud on cards as it seems everywhere can hold your details for when they're next needed.

I personally don't condone it. I think they could have contacted you to explain to you you either return the product or else the additional charge will be added. The bank would have to have made the call after being alerted to the error though to avoid handing out personal details.

njs030

wyrn wrote: »

Fraud on which side?

I find it slightly worrying that the store charged the customer a 2nd time. I didn't realise that they could hold on to the bank details (always assumed it was similar to the customer copy with only the last 4 digits showing). If the store put through a 2nd transaction on the same card, would they not need a pin number?

The hairdressers I go to, sometimes give me a very good discounted rant. It's not exactly advertised to me as it's a small place and they don't want to shout it out I suppose. What if the owner decided that the discount was too good, could they charge a 2nd time to make up the difference?

I accept that in the case of the OP, the difference was huge. it sits really uneasily with me that they went to charge them full price a 2nd time without getting in contact first. Perhaps they did try.

Yes the retailer copy has the card number on it.

The card machine can of course be used without pin numbers otherwise how would online purchases work? Or when you order a take away on the phone?
The last 3 digits on the back of the card should be entered in this mail order scenario, if a fradulant charge like your hairdresser goes through you can ring the bank and have it reversed.

As already pointed out in ops case he agreed to pay the money so it's a perfectly legal charge.

wyrn

notjustsweet wrote: »

Yes the retailer copy has the card number on it.

The card machine can of course be used without pin numbers otherwise how would online purchases work? Or when you order a take away on the phone?
The last 3 digits on the back of the card should be entered in this mail order scenario, if a fradulant charge like your hairdresser goes through you can ring the bank and have it reversed.

As already pointed out in ops case he agreed to pay the money so it's a perfectly legal charge.

I understand how online and phone purchases work and than in place of a pin number, they use the cvv number. If I pay by chip & pin - would the cvv number show up on the merchant copy?

I don't think the OP wants to get away with the undercharge, I think that it's the 2nd charge that they are wondering about. To be the 2nd charge seems unauthorised as the owner of the card didn't authorise it and the store charged the full amount and not the balance.

njs030

wyrn wrote: »

I understand how online and phone purchases work and than in place of a pin number, they use the cvv number. If I pay by chip & pin - would the cvv number show up on the merchant copy?

I don't think the OP wants to get away with the undercharge, I think that it's the 2nd charge that they are wondering about. To be the 2nd charge seems unauthorised as the owner of the card didn't authorise it and the store charged the full amount and not the balance.

The store charged the balance it says so in the op. That's the agreed price.

Sleeper12

talkingpj wrote:

I bought a pair of headphones at the weekend and a big retailer only charged me 90c instead of 90euro. However i saw today the balance of the money was taken in another transaction. Can retailers do this?

If you were aware of the mistake and did nothing about it, that's as good as theft IMO

Tigger

AvonEnniskerry wrote: »

Do we know that op agreed to pay 90euro... How do we know the signage in place didn't misread 90cent and the op merely took advantage of a ridiculously cheap sale price.

I'd this argument with a shop recently where my husband noticed something advertised ridiculously cheaply. The shop refused to sell him the item at the price they'd displayed. But they failed to remove the product from sale or the sign so i argued that point to get the item at the cheaper price.

In answer to ops question. Yes unfortunately they can do this. Just as insurance renewals etc can auto renew on your cards. Its no wonder in this day and age there is so much fraud on cards as it seems everywhere can hold your details for when they're next needed.

I personally don't condone it. I think they could have contacted you to explain to you you either return the product or else the additional charge will be added. The bank would have to have made the call after being alerted to the error though to avoid handing out personal details.

dont have to give it to you at the advertised price

ohnonotgmail

AvonEnniskerry wrote: »

Do we know that op agreed to pay 90euro... How do we know the signage in place didn't misread 90cent and the op merely took advantage of a ridiculously cheap sale price.

I'd this argument with a shop recently where my husband noticed something advertised ridiculously cheaply. The shop refused to sell him the item at the price they'd displayed. But they failed to remove the product from sale or the sign so i argued that point to get the item at the cheaper price.

In answer to ops question. Yes unfortunately they can do this. Just as insurance renewals etc can auto renew on your cards. Its no wonder in this day and age there is so much fraud on cards as it seems everywhere can hold your details for when they're next needed.

I personally don't condone it. I think they could have contacted you to explain to you you either return the product or else the additional charge will be added. The bank would have to have made the call after being alerted to the error though to avoid handing out personal details.

It is pretty clear from the OP that they knew the price of the item was €90.

jluv

I have worked in retail for 25 + years and have never been privvy to someones full credit details nor would I want to be..the only thing I can think of in the OP is that yes the regrister for some reason rang 99c but the central system rang the correct price of 99 euro. With your reciept I would challange that. But I would doubt that someone instore entered your credit card detais without your permission..

Wheety

I would imagine, as the OP hasn't given anymore details, that the till charged €90 but the card machine only had 90c entered into it. Some aren't connected to the till and the employee enters the amount manually.

The OP probably has a shop receipt for €90 but a card receipt for 90c. They're within their rights to charge the rest when the mistake was discovered.

Tigger

jluv wrote: »

I have worked in retail for 25 + years and have never been privvy o someones full credit details nor would I want to be..the only thing I can think of in the OP is that yes the regrister for some reason rang 99c but the central system rang the correct price of 99 euro. With your reciept I would challange that. But I would doubt that someone instore entered your credit card detais without your permission..

full card details are on the merchant receipt
you could in theory simply enter them and use the customer not present option to charge the balance

assuming its a chip and pin card the card holder can then simply chargeback stating that they didn't authorise a customer not present charge and that they believe it was taken in error

the shop would have to then chase the customer for the 89.10 that some poor unfortunate failed to charge correctly in the first place

its very hard to chase someone for 89.10 and the shop would probably accept the loss

this seems to be what some people want to happen it is very dishonest and since the op was happy to accept the 90 euro price at the beginning i don't see why they would do it

but they could

njs030

Tigger wrote: »

full card details are on the merchant receipt
you could in theory simply enter them and use the customer not present option to charge the balance

assuming its a chip and pin card the card holder can then simply chargeback stating that they didn't authorise a customer not present charge and that they believe it was taken in error

the shop would have to then chase the customer for the 89.10 that some poor unfortunate failed to charge correctly in the first place

its very hard to chase someone for 89.10 and the shop would probably accept the loss

this seems to be what some people want to happen it is very dishonest and since the op was happy to accept the 90 euro price at the beginning i don't see why they would do it

but they could

Is a chargeback quite that simple? I would expect the bank would contact the store and ask what happened, presumably a store selling high priced electrical goods has CCTV and can prove op agreed to the sale price, plus they have the receipt with the price on it.
It may be hard for op to convince the bank he has any entitlement to a refund for a product he did buy?


What they should have done is refunded the 90 cent and charged €90 really.

AvonEnniskerry

Tigger wrote:

dont have to give it to you at the advertised price

That is essentially correct though it's good practise as it's their mistake and misleading to the customer.
However when you can prove that the shop had previously been alerted to the incorrect pricing and they didn't bother removing it then yes they should most definitely give it to you at the lower price. They've a responsibility to maintain the shop and removing incorrect pricing is quick and easy to do.