3,000 acre farm Donegal

Kerry2016

Do any of ye remember when a couple of brothers (I think their surname was Graham) bought 3,000 acres of a farm in Donegal back in the 1980's, it got repossessed then in the 90's I think… I felt awfully sorry for them when I read about it, I was always curious as to what happened them afterwards, some turn around going from owning the biggest farm in the country to owning no farm at all

Anyone know if they ever went farming again?

My curiosity got the better of me and I thought someone might know

parishsavings

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/why-the-grahams-are-angry-about-the-deal-nib-gave-ellis-26130795.html

Sam Kade

I remember it well, they sold the home farm and bought that farm and had trouble with repayments. If was sickening the way the had the eviction on the news.

Kerry2016

2,000 or so acres of that same farm is up for sale at the moment, they're looking for €17,000,000 for it, some sickener to its former owners

leoch

Apparently a few locals very large feed lot men and an annerobic digestor man and Larry goodman were looking at that place goodman flew in by helicopter to look at it

Kerry2016

What do ye think it's worth? €8,500/acre seems fairly steep considering that you'd be depending on a massive pump and draining system to keep the water out, the farm is below sea level, you'd think since its so large and there isn't a whole pile of buildings on the farm that it could surely sell for a lot less than the €17mn they're looking for it

leoch

U must be from that area u no it well .....I know wat ur saying 5000 or 6000 might be all it makes with the pumping and all that it's good ground all the same

patsy_mccabe

Were they the people that bought an expensive tractor that could handle the wet ground? That's what I remember from the case.

mayota

parishsavings wrote: »

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/why-the-grahams-are-angry-about-the-deal-nib-gave-ellis-26130795.html

Tough on the family. And that Mod Snip...
...Language please done serious damage to a lot more farm families.

Kerry2016

I presume they're not able to sell the farm in lots now because of whatever way the drainage system is placed around the farm?

If someone had all those millions to spend I doubt it's 1,700 acres of land that they'd want to buy, most certainly not land that's below sea level or in Donegal either for that matter

I read a week ago that county Donegal's land price is one of the lowest averages across Ireland

tractorporn

Kerry2016 wrote:

What do ye think it's worth? €8,500/acre seems fairly steep considering that you'd be depending on a massive pump and draining system to keep the water out, the farm is below sea level, you'd think since its so large and there isn't a whole pile of buildings on the farm that it could surely sell for a lot less than the €17mn they're looking for it

That ground is some of the best land in Ireland. It currently has the largest organic dairy farm on the island along with 1000 acres of organic veg. It's well worth that price. Locals have said that the Goodman helicopter flew over it twice last summer surveying it.

Kerry2016

tractorporn wrote: »

That ground is some of the best land in Ireland. It currently has the largest organic dairy farm on the island along with 1000 acres of organic veg. It's well worth that price. Locals have said that the Goodman helicopter flew over it twice last summer surveying it.

Yeah but that fella with the organic farm has it leased out for another few years which is an obvious drawback, if your buying a farm you want the freehold of it

Tbh I can't wrap my head around buying a farm for that money below sea level, I just wouldn't like the idea of it at all but yes I had heard it's some of the best land in the country

pedigree 6

Marine deposit land if you can keep it dry makes the best farmland in the world.
It would be young land for a start so full of minerals and calcium.
The other end of the spectrum, granite till ground would be the worst and oldest and depleted of minerals and calcium.

How do you know if your ground is granite till?
If you can pick up small granite stones off the ground after ploughing, your ground is granite till.
There is a whole area where I live that goes along the Blackstairs to Ballywilliam and down to Old Ross that is Granite till and cows are prone to grass tetany here.

Then you have an area from Arklow down to Blackwater that is marine deposit land and if you can keep it dry enough can be the best grazing ground in the country and stock thrive very well. The Macamores they call this land.

cute geoge

Would inchy land not prone to flooding along side a river be similar to marine deposit land .
You would be surprised how good and dry some land is bounding a river and marshy land next to that

kerry cow

The running cost of pumping out the water must be huge cost on the donegal farm and also on the old leestrand farm in wexford .
Mind you at 4500 per acre it's good value to set up a 1000 cows and followers and cropping all in one block .
There's always someone to buy .
But mind you at a huge sum , so only affordable to some .
Also if you buy right priced you can sell someday at the right price
4500 per acre is good

pedigree 6

cute geoge wrote: »

Would inchy land not prone to flooding along side a river be similar to marine deposit land .
You would be surprised how good and dry some land is bounding a river and marshy land next to that

It depends where that river comes from as to what soil or sediment has built up beside the river.
So could be big differences between river banks or flood plains in different areas.
You could even be all stones on one side of the river and sand sediment on the other.
But yes you can good land too on flood plains.

patsy_mccabe

It's not just the pumping costs but also the cost of maintaining the trenches. We have low lying corcas type land which was once part of the Shannon flood estuary. Water table is very high so land tends to be cold. This means later grass in spring but grows like mad in very hot weather.

kerry cow

I can never figure why people who have fragmented holdings don't sell up and buy a decent farm .
Fair play to the guy from West cork who sold a few farms and moved to south kilkenny / wexford

Limestone Cowboy

kerry cow wrote: »

I can never figure why people who have fragmented holdings don't sell up and buy a decent farm .
Fair play to the guy from West cork who sold a few farms and moved to south kilkenny / wexford

More to life than farming maybe? Not everyone might like to leave their home place and move away from friends and family. I wouldn't anyway.

Grueller

pedigree 6 wrote: »

Marine deposit land if you can keep it dry makes the best farmland in the world.
It would be young land for a start so full of minerals and calcium.
The other end of the spectrum, granite till ground would be the worst and oldest and depleted of minerals and calcium.

How do you know if your ground is granite till?
If you can pick up small granite stones off the ground after ploughing, your ground is granite till.
There is a whole area where I live that goes along the Blackstairs to Ballywilliam and down to Old Ross that is Granite till and cows are prone to grass tetany here.

Then you have an area from Arklow down to Blackwater that is marine deposit land and if you can keep it dry enough can be the best grazing ground in the country and stock thrive very well. The Macamores they call this land.

I have some of that macamores land. Everything you say is correct, but keeping it dry is a big if. In 2012 I got no value from it due to the wet summer. Hard to keep rushes out of it too. Can be bought at up to €5k per acre less than other land in the Gorey district. Takes a little bit of minding but will grow plenty grass.

IH784man

leoch wrote: »

Apparently a few locals very large feed lot men and an annerobic digestor man and Larry goodman were looking at that place goodman flew in by helicopter to look at it

I think I know the digestor man your on about,KMC?

jimmycrackcorm

Kerry2016 wrote:

Do any of ye remember when a couple of brothers (I think their surname was Graham) bought 3,000 acres of a farm in Donegal back in the 1980's, it got repossessed then in the 90's I think… I felt awfully sorry for them when I read about it, I was always curious as to what happened them afterwards, some turn around going from owning the biggest farm in the country to owning no farm at all

I remember it well. I didn't feel one bit sorry for them because they gambled on it. Totally reckless behaviour, then expecting that they were entitled to continue even if the banks weren't going to keep backing it.

satstheway

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

I remember it well. I didn't feel one bit sorry for them because they gambled on it. Totally reckless behaviour, then expecting that they were entitled to continue even if the banks weren't going to keep backing it.

Mod note: No accusations of wrongdoing unless you can back it up with a link.

Buford T. Justice.

Thats what we heard anyway

kerry cow

We're they big farmers when in monaghan before they moved .
Some size of a operation @2500 acres

seanmaol

They sold a farm in Monaghan for 1,000,000 and bought the one in Donegal for 4,000,000 back in 1989.
the farm has a milk quota of 300,000 gallons I think, I thought Donegal Creamery bought that farm 20 years ago!?

freedominacup

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

I remember it well. I didn't feel one bit sorry for them because they gambled on it. Totally reckless behaviour, then expecting that they were entitled to continue even if the banks weren't going to keep backing it.

I know. Shower of left footed cnuts with their big ideas. Thinking they had a right to try to expand their business. They weren't reckless. They got hosed along with everyone else who owed money at the time by a semi educated bunch of knuckleheads in the dept of finance who decided to hang small businesses out to dry in order to "protect" the punt by ratcheting interest rates up to 25%. Most of us survived it. Those poor fcukers didn't. I'd have nothing but sympathy and respect for them. They took a chance but they got turned over by circumstances far outside their control.

kerry cow

They were brave to take it on .There farm at a millon pound must have been some operation at that time .been prosetant it must have been an estate .
What's with it now

leoch

Again, don't make accusations unless you can back them up

Nekarsulm

freedominacup wrote: »

I know. Shower of left footed cnuts with their big ideas. Thinking they had a right to try to expand their business. They weren't reckless. They got hosed along with everyone else who owed money at the time by a semi educated bunch of knuckleheads in the dept of finance who decided to hang small businesses out to dry in order to "protect" the punt by ratcheting interest rates up to 25%. Most of us survived it. Those poor fcukers didn't. I'd have nothing but sympathy and respect for them. They took a chance but they got turned over by circumstances far outside their control.

It was a hoor of a time, with interest rates.
I remember paying 19% on a variable interest loan. All your capital repayments were swallowed up by interest, and despite making all payments, loan amount didn't go down by a penny for a period od 18 months or so.

If rates returned to that level now, the recent recession would look like a sunday school picnic in comparison.

IH784man

leoch wrote: »

Yea that's him ih484

Isn't he building a couple more around the country,it's a wonder where the money's coming from.

ganmo

kerry cow wrote: »

They were brave to take it on .There farm at a millon pound must have been some operation at that time .been prosetant it must have been an estate .
What's with it now

not necessarily, plenty of ordinary protestant farmers

kerry cow

In fairness the bank fcuked them around . If you change the terms of a loan offer and with a high debt a 1%change in a 3m loan could and have broke people , not to mind a massive hike .The banks can be wnkers as I believe everyone borrows m9ney to pay it back and sometimes hit a difficult patch that need support from the bank and not have the mat pulled .
If it was me then or anytime in the future then I won't go down alone .its high time someone puts a line in the sand .i am surprised it has not happened already .

Buford T. Justice XIX

Mod Note: I have removed a few allegations from previous posts.

If you wish to continue this discussion, think about what you are about to post and provide a link to any allegations you are making.

Use some common sense, lads and lassies, don't make accusations unless you are prepared to back them up!

Buford T. Justice.

rangler1

kerry cow wrote: »

They were brave to take it on .There farm at a millon pound must have been some operation at that time .been prosetant it must have been an estate .
What's with it now

Was it ever sold I wonder, I know the family that had 600 acres of it leased producing organic milk, wonder are they still at it

http://www.independent.ie/business/commercial-property/massive-organic-farm-at-the-grianan-estate-in-co-donegal-seeking-as-much-as-17m-34783557.html

farawaygrass

Paying 3.5% on my mortgage at the minute. It dropped from 4.6 last year due to ltv. That drop worked out about €100 less I had to pay a month. All I can say is if interest rates rose to 19%-holy f**k!!! That'd be me finished anyhow. Fair play to snyone who not alone prospered, but survived them times.

Who2

What has someone's religion got to do with farming. Why does it have to be even brought up. I thought people had got over that muck.

Kerry2016

From what I read in the independent and the times about the owners of that 3,000 acre estate I got the impression that they weren't able to run it that well, imagine the work load in 3,000 acres. Sounds like they bit off more than they could chew

Their bank wanted them to sell some of the 3,000 acres to bring down the debt but all they did was sell the lake that all the water from their pumps was going into, the bank wasn't happy about that

seanmaol

I remember back in November 1993 the bank tried to sell 100 cows to the factory animal rights people went mad ,
cows were heavily in calf at the time.

seanmaol

As far as I can remember the person who ran the farm before the new owners had excellent knowledge
of running that kind of farm,they had worked on similar operations in the Netherlands.

kerry cow

Who2 wrote:

What has someone's religion got to do with farming. Why does it have to be even brought up. I thought people had got over that muck.

Religion has little to do with anything anymore thank god .but you can stop jumping up and down for what ever reason I seem to have got under you skin . I was just making the point that having such a large farm to sell in monaghan and been a prosetant family it must have been some type of an estate . I know many a family of the same disposition .

Keepgrowing

freedominacup wrote: »

I know. Shower of left footed cnuts with their big ideas. Thinking they had a right to try to expand their business. They weren't reckless. They got hosed along with everyone else who owed money at the time by a semi educated bunch of knuckleheads in the dept of finance who decided to hang small businesses out to dry in order to "protect" the punt by ratcheting interest rates up to 25%. Most of us survived it. Those poor fcukers didn't. I'd have nothing but sympathy and respect for them. They took a chance but they got turned over by circumstances far outside their control.

Freedom you've hit the nail on the head as usual. Necksulan gets it too, it was a horrible hoor of a time to have money borrowed.

Monthly meetings with banks, trying to keep them paid aswell as your local suppliers and nothing for yourself. Massive monthly payments rising rapidly and only just keeping interest paid. It was caused as Free says by interest rate hikes to protect the punt while the big employers and party funders did as they pleased regardless of their borrowings.

Did we take risks to get into that position? Certainly and most survived but were wounded a few like the Graham family didn't. Did people take write offs? Yes and sold land as part of the deal.

We were offered a write off but felt the price was too high, instead persevered fighting the wolf from the door till the late nineties. I remember one meeting in our house with 4 bankers our accountant, advisor and bank appointed consultant all on the clock and paid for by us. We were going through another plan and they insisted in counting our stock, to my surprise my dad agreed.

My father left the room first followed by the senior bank guy and his cronies I was last to leave. By the time I reached the scullery the bank guy was on his back in a pile of wellington boots with my father standing over him telling him that "this is my house and farm and any man who doesn't take my word will pay the price, and they should phuck off leave us to farm and they'll be fully paid".

I will never forget that day and the steel and emotion displayed by my father. I can only imagine the pressure he must have been under for such a quiet gentle family man to do what he did!!

We made mistakes, everyone does and I'm sure this family did too but the banks were bastards and were facilitated by the state, a truely shameful time.

To conclude it matters not one jot whether a family attends church, chapel or none, when the chips are down we only as good as the decisions we make and the respect we have for ourselves.

I'm rambling a bit but this thread has brought back many terrible memories but those experiences are burned into my mind and that one incident in our scullery will never leave me. I have nothing but regard for people who went through those times

White Clover

Who2 wrote: »

What has someone's religion got to do with farming. Why does it have to be even brought up. I thought people had got over that muck.

To be fair, what's being discussed is the events of 1993, not 2017. Religion was a bigger deal then and in fairness it wasn't being focused on until you brought it up yourself.

Who2

White Clover wrote: »

To be fair, what's being discussed is the events of 1993, not 2017. Religion was a bigger deal then and in fairness it wasn't being focused on until you brought it up yourself.

Why was it even brought up?

freedominacup

Kerry2016 wrote: »

From what I read in the independent and the times about the owners of that 3,000 acre estate I got the impression that they weren't able to run it that well, imagine the work load in 3,000 acres. Sounds like they bit off more than they could chew

Their bank wanted them to sell some of the 3,000 acres to bring down the debt but all they did was sell the lake that all the water from their pumps was going into, the bank wasn't happy about that

Every time the banks move against a farm like this there's always a story in the establishment broadsheets about the incompetence of said owners. Funny how the banks never spot this when they're lorrying out the cash. I've yet to see an article about the deep knowledge and acumen of the farmers in trouble but then again farmers don't really go big on half page and full page ads in these newspapers either.

kerry cow

My grandfather had 3 farms . 200 ac X 2 and the farm I have . My cousin has one 200 ac farm but the other 200 ac he lost to the bank and had to move out .That was many years ago and as a family we have moved on and prospered in and out of farming .but ..but it has not been forgotten and it is that fact that drives us on .
I have been through a few nasty year with the bank also but it makes you stronger and keeps you focused .
.no matter who it is I hate to hear the banks take the high ground .People need a chance and when you borrow they happily lend .If you hit a bad patch you need support till you get back on track .No body wants ro loose their farm or home and will work with any bank to resolve it .but the banks like to make examples of people .
Even in cork last year it hurts to see a family go like that .

rangler1

kerry cow wrote: »

My grandfather had 3 farms . 200 ac X 2 and the farm I have . My cousin has one 200 ac farm but the other 200 ac he lost to the bank and had to move out .That was many years ago and as a family we have moved on and prospered in and out of farming .but ..but it has not been forgotten and it is that fact that drives us on .
I have been through a few nasty year with the bank also but it makes you stronger and keeps you focused .
.no matter who it is I hate to hear the banks take the high ground .People need a chance and when you borrow they happily lend .If you hit a bad patch you need support till you get back on track .No body wants ro loose their farm or home and will work with any bank to resolve it .but the banks like to make examples of people .
Even in cork last year it hurts to see a family go like that .

Land is not the be all and end all of everything, life is very short....especially active life. Worrying about loans and living like a hermit for the best years of your life chasing a career that appears to be a race to the bottom just doesn't make sense.
We took the risks of our own free will and got screwed, I just see now that selling your soul to a farm or even a small shop is a waste.....people that pulled the plug on farming around here in the last thirty years appear to have a quality of life that I don't have

Keepgrowing

rangler1 wrote: »

Land is not the be all and end all of everything, life is very short....especially active life. Worrying about loans and living like a hermit for the best years of your life chasing a career that appears to be a race to the bottom just doesn't make sense.
We took the risks of our own free will and got screwed, I just see now that selling your soul to a farm or even a small shop is a waste.....people that pulled the plug on farming around here in the last thirty years appear to have a quality of life that I don't have

Good point but awful hard to see that when you're in the darkness

rangler1

Keepgrowing wrote: »

Good point but awful hard to see that when you're in the darkness

don't I know it.....
knowledge from experience always comes five mins after you need it

Kerry2016

Back when the Grahams got their farm repossessed that time there was talks in the papers about the UVF getting involved to stop the repossession going through, the UVF even apparently made threats against Donegal Co Op to try stop them going ahead with buying it. As bad as things got they shouldn't of stooped that low

By the way I read all that in online newspaper articles that are there for everyone to be seen, I'm not making it up

farisfat

The skill needed to manage 3000 acres is mind boggling especially ón land the needs to be pumped and the climate that donegal gets.
The banks very nearly closed here in the early nineties.

pedigree 6

Kerry2016 wrote: »

Back when the Grahams got their farm repossessed that time there was talks in the papers about the UVF getting involved to stop the repossession going through, the UVF even apparently made threats against Donegal Co Op to try stop them going ahead with buying it. As bad as things got they shouldn't of stooped that low

By the way I read all that in online newspaper articles that are there for everyone to be seen, I'm not making it up

As brilliant as the posts have been in this thread.
What's the point of it, Opening Poster?
Are you going to buy the farm or what?