Any seasoned/knowledgeable Zoe Drivers here?

isnottheword

As per thread title, any experienced Zoe drivers around? I just have a few very quick questions I'd like to ask you. :-)

peposhi

Dexter1979 or something like that was the nick of a guy who posted quite a lot in the past...

ei9go

Have a Zoe. What do you want to know?

isnottheword

ei9go wrote: »

Have a Zoe. What do you want to know?

Thanks for posting.

I'm a Leaf owner/driver since August 16. Originally, I was interested in the Zoe - but got frustrated with the whole battery rental thing. I've come across a reasonably priced used Zoe that's a bit of a rarity i.e. battery owned rather than leased.


With that, I wondered how do you find the car generally - and particularly in terms of ...

A. Range

and


B. Durability of the Battery.


Only the germinal stages of an idea - but if the price was right and the fundamentals otherwise were right (particularly the above), then I might well consider selling on my 141 Leaf 6.6kW (24kw) and buying the Zoe. Space was never an issue for me - I'd be just as well pleased with a smaller car. I do high mileage and have a long commute (80 mile round trip).
I also like the idea that Renault seem to have embraced the idea of permitting a battery upgrade (even if that upgrade is damned expensive right now) to the 40kW version.

The other big draw for me is being able to utilise SCP's at 22kW rather than 6.6kW with the leaf. That said, from my very basic reading up on the interweb, I'm hearing stories of the Zoe not charging at full power (comparatively with the Leaf) on FCP's. Is this correct and to what extent is it an issue?
Any thoughts welcome.

stesaurus

Use the FB groups, Jan over there is incredibly knowledgable on all things EV bu in particular the Zoe

isnottheword

s.welstead wrote: »

Use the FB groups, Jan over there is incredibly knowledgable on all things EV bu in particular the Zoe

Jan was my first port of call and has already been very helpful. Clearly, he has a wealth of hands on knowledge on the subject. That said, he has not driven both Leaf and Zoe - so I'd welcome any further feedback either from other Zoe drivers or those that have experience of both cars. It's a big decision so I don't want to make an uninformed and bad judgement.

I've been more than happy with the Leaf - although there seems to be some potential for the Zoe to solve a problem or two.

i.e.

- It 'seems' like it can achieve that little bit more range.
- Using SCP charging posts is going to be a joy given that 22kW charging is possible.
- There seems to be a possibility of upgrading the battery in time to the 40kW (this has been confirmed in principal by Renault - but not the cost. Presumably the cost will be prohibitive to begin with but I'd be hopeful that a couple of years down the line, it would be reasonable (all speculation on my part).


What I'm unsure about...


- Battery durability?
Anyone any info on this? Any tests been done of both batteries side by side and comparison carried out over a few years? Will Zoe or Leaf battery degrade faster - and to a greater extent (I know that with the leaf, degradation is not linear and starts to slow up...is this the case with the Zoe also?).


Who manufactures the Zoe battery?

How will resale compare for the Leaf and the Zoe (both battery owned) down the road?

I've had a couple of indications from folks as regards range. Are there any other Zoe drivers here on boards that can pitch in and indicate what's achievable? I do an 80 mile roundtrip commute. Can a Zoe live with that?


Is it true that the Zoe doesn't charge at as fast a rate as the Leaf at an FCP?

ei9go

isnottheword wrote: »

Thanks for posting.

I'm a Leaf owner/driver since August 16. Originally, I was interested in the Zoe - but got frustrated with the whole battery rental thing. I've come across a reasonably priced used Zoe that's a bit of a rarity i.e. battery owned rather than leased.


With that, I wondered how do you find the car generally - and particularly in terms of ...

A. Range

and


B. Durability of the Battery.


Only the germinal stages of an idea - but if the price was right and the fundamentals otherwise were right (particularly the above), then I might well consider selling on my 141 Leaf 6.6kW (24kw) and buying the Zoe. Space was never an issue for me - I'd be just as well pleased with a smaller car. I do high mileage and have a long commute (80 mile round trip).
I also like the idea that Renault seem to have embraced the idea of permitting a battery upgrade (even if that upgrade is damned expensive right now) to the 40kW version.

The other big draw for me is being able to utilise SCP's at 22kW rather than 6.6kW with the leaf. That said, from my very basic reading up on the interweb, I'm hearing stories of the Zoe not charging at full power (comparatively with the Leaf) on FCP's. Is this correct and to what extent is it an issue?
Any thoughts welcome.

Th Zoe charges in an hour from any SCP, no issues at any I've used.

You won't do 80 miles (128km) comfortably without charging most of the time and definately not in the cold weather.

Charges as it should on fast chargers. Recently did 35% to 80% at Urlingford in a little over 10 mins.

Seats are not as good as the Leaf and the silly back seat that doesn't do a 50/50 split.

Villain

I spoke with a Renault dealer today, he is heading over to Coventry next week to do a days training on new Zoe 40kW, sounds like the Battery rental crap is gone and normal purchase now.

OP I drove a Leaf for just over years and test drove a Zoe, the first impression of the Zoe was that it was a fair bit smaller than the leaf, the cabin was much smaller. The finish on the Zoe wasn't as nice either and it certainly isn't as nice as my new Megane GT that I got. 40kW battery is great improvement though!

isnottheword

ei9go wrote: »

You won't do 80 miles (128km) comfortably without charging most of the time and definitely not in the cold weather.

With the Leaf right now, I leave home with 100% and arrive at work with 45% left (was 50% today as I guess temps are improving). It requires me to spend 30 minutes at an FCP each day (to get it back up to 80%). If the Zoe could cut my time down to say 10 minutes, that would be a major bonus. Is that achievable do you think?

ei9go wrote: »

The Zoe charges in an hour from any SCP, no issues at any I've used.

Ok, perfect. I thought I had read reports of it not reaching the same rate of charge at FCP's but it's good to hear your real life experience on that.

ei9go wrote: »

Seats are not as good as the Leaf and the silly back seat that doesn't do a 50/50 split.

Villain wrote:

spoke with a Renault dealer today..sounds like the Battery rental crap is gone and normal purchase now.

They're finally seeing sense!

Villain wrote:

the first impression of the Zoe was that it was a fair bit smaller than the leaf, the cabin was much smaller. The finish on the Zoe wasn't as nice either

ei9go wrote:

Seats are not as good as the Leaf and the silly back seat that doesn't do a 50/50 split.

It's just single occupancy only 99.9% of the time - so I'm not bothered personally about the back seats nor too bothered about the finish. However, I would have a concern if this was significant enough to damage it's resale value. By comparison with the Leaf, do you think it could?

As it stands right now, I'm teetering towards sticking in an offer for the Zoe. However, there are 2 main imponderables that I need to get my head around before I pull the trigger;

1.(a).How do the two batteries stack up in terms of degradation? My experience of the Leaf is that it will drop two 'bars' probably within 3-4 years - but that further degradation thereafter is not linear i.e. should not continue on at the same rate.
How does the Zoe compare by comparison? Are they using different battery manufacturers?


1.(b). Durability of the battery generally.
By that, I mean is there a possibility that either of these batteries could bomb completely - and is that risk greater with one rather than the other?


2. Rate of Depreciation
I know if you look at any of the online car sales sites, you'll see bargain basement Zoe's but this is a direct result of the battery leasing that comes into play with 99% of them.
What expectation should I have in terms of rate of depreciation when comparing battery owned Zoe with battery owned Leaf?


I bought a 141 Nissan Leaf Acenta 7 months ago - battery owned with 6.6kW charging. The car I'm looking at right now is a 152 Renault Zoe E Dynamique Intens; battery owned. Theres a difference of 650euro between the two (the Zoe being more expensive).
Can anyone sanity check my notion of switching purely from a financial perspective?

goz83

You're nuts

foodaholic

I comfortably do 110km a day and a portion on that is motorway driving.
While the Zoe isnt as big as the leaf I comfortably fit 2 childrens seats and the boot is huge.

You will love how quickly the Zoe charges even at a 22kw charger.
And the best thing is not getting leafed !!

Dexter1979

isnottheword wrote: »

With the Leaf right now, I leave home with 100% and arrive at work with 45% left (was 50% today as I guess temps are improving). It requires me to spend 30 minutes at an FCP each day (to get it back up to 80%). If the Zoe could cut my time down to say 10 minutes, that would be a major bonus. Is that achievable do you think?

Yes, no bother. You would make the 128km in one charge most of the year if you mind your speed and the usual weather term & conditions. You will be pretty low on battery when you get home though so a 5 minute stop at a FCP or even a 22kW SCP would be a security blanket. I did J3, M8 to Dublin Airport without issue a few times with no issue driving at 95 - 100kph.

isnottheword wrote: »

I thought I had read reports of it not reaching the same rate of charge at FCP's but it's good to hear your real life experience on that.

I have charged next to a LEAF on numerous of occasions and am usually gone with 90+% of a charge before the LEAF reaches 80%. The 30kWh LEAF has a far better charging curve than the 24kWh LEAF and charges faster than a ZOE.

The rumours you are reading is a bug in the new 41kWh versions with the Q90 engines. They seem to top out at about 34kW when charging at a 43kW charger. Renault are working on this.

isnottheword wrote: »

It's just single occupancy only 99.9% of the time - so I'm not bothered personally about the back seats nor too bothered about the finish. However, I would have a concern if this was significant enough to damage it's resale value. By comparison with the Leaf, do you think it could?

Resale values for Renaults are poor. Resale values for EV's are poor compared to a regular ICE car. Phil Fitgerald from electricautos.ie could do you a good trade-in deal for a non-battery lease Renault Zoe.

isnottheword wrote: »

1.(a).How do the two batteries stack up in terms of degradation? My experience of the Leaf is that it will drop two 'bars' probably within 3-4 years - but that further degradation thereafter is not linear i.e. should not continue on at the same rate.
How does the Zoe compare by comparison? Are they using different battery manufacturers?

Time kills battery capacity so degradation will be pretty similar, I would suspect.. Zoe's seem to be holding their own just fine. Most 3 year old Zoe's are at around 92% State of Health (SOH) as far as I can see. There is also a BMS bug that gives a false low SOH which Renault have fixed. Someone saw their battery SOH go from 88% to 98% following the installation of the fix.

isnottheword wrote: »

1.(b). Durability of the battery generally.
By that, I mean is there a possibility that either of these batteries could bomb completely - and is that risk greater with one rather than the other?

Unlikely unless the control electronics break which is rare. In this case the 5 year warranty would just mean a simple battery replacement.

isnottheword wrote: »

2. Rate of Depreciation
I know if you look at any of the online car sales sites, you'll see bargain basement Zoe's but this is a direct result of the battery leasing that comes into play with 99% of them.
What expectation should I have in terms of rate of depreciation when comparing battery owned Zoe with battery owned Leaf?

See above

isnottheword wrote: »

I bought a 141 Nissan Leaf Acenta 7 months ago - battery owned with 6.6kW charging. The car I'm looking at right now is a 152 Renault Zoe E Dynamique Intens; battery owned. Theres a difference of 650euro between the two (the Zoe being more expensive).
Can anyone sanity check my notion of switching purely from a financial perspective?

You will not make money on your car, therefore you will end up spending more money getting the Zoe. If you are looking at this from a pure financial point of view I would wait a year or two and trade in for a used Zoe ZE40. If you are doing it from a practicality point of view then go ahead.

Do take a Zoe for a spin. It's a completely different car compared to a LEAF. The inside has a cheaper feel, glove box is so small it's nearly unusable, seats are different, etc. It's not all roses.

s.welstead wrote: »

Use the FB groups, Jan over there is incredibly knowledgable on all things EV bu in particular the Zoe

peposhi wrote: »

Dexter1979 or something like that was the nick of a guy who posted quite a lot in the past...

It is I! Jan-Bart, in disguise!

I did actually drive the LEAF and have a video with my long winded analysis between the 2. I have my own reasons for choosing the Zoe over a LEAF and both are fine EV's. Each do certain things better and certain things worse.

https://youtu.be/jf26htCqOIo?list=PLeqAbHd_6QOyeF4wuFnfHobUU2P8xCEaB

Dexter1979

foodaholic wrote: »

I comfortably do 110km a day and a portion on that is motorway driving.
While the Zoe isnt as big as the leaf I comfortably fit 2 childrens seats and the boot is huge.

Have had 3 adults in the back as well as 1 adult between 2 childrens seats and it all fits. Not as comfortable as a LEAF but it fits. Also carried a 2m high flat pack from IKEA with no issue by removing the back seat.

foodaholic wrote: »

You will love how quickly the Zoe charges even at a 22kw charger.
And the best thing is not getting leafed !!

This was one of my main reasons for getting the Zoe. Living in North Cork with the nearest FCP about 35km away and few FCPs in the rest of Cork and Kerry being able to make use of the 22kW SCP's is great. It goes up at a rate of about 1% every 40 seconds until you reach about 95%.. Not being LEAF'ed is not much of a issue for me most days but on longer drives towards Dublin it's been very helpful on more than one occasion.

Dexter1979

Villain wrote: »

I spoke with a Renault dealer today, he is heading over to Coventry next week to do a days training on new Zoe 40kW, sounds like the Battery rental crap is gone and normal purchase now.

Correct.. Though the price has now gone up to pretty much the same as a LEAF.. €3500 more expensive than a similarly spec'd Diesel Clio.. So I have a feeling it's not going to help sales much..

I have also been in touch with Renault and have been allowed to add a few info bits to the training.. Should help with increasing the understanding that Renault dealers have about the product they are selling..

Renault Ireland still have zero interest in EV's though and I am not expecting a big push to increase Zoe sales..

Villain wrote: »

I drove a Leaf for just over years and test drove a Zoe, the first impression of the Zoe was that it was a fair bit smaller than the leaf, the cabin was much smaller. The finish on the Zoe wasn't as nice either and it certainly isn't as nice as my new Megane GT that I got. 40kW battery is great improvement though!

Yes, the finish much better in the LEAF and the less said about the stupid Zoe cup holders the better.

The finish on the ZE40 I saw at the Dublin Energy Show last week is so much better (not much use to the OP, I know) with improved interior quality and colour plastics, additional cloth on the door, no blue detailing which has a tendency to peal off. The (expensive) signature edition should be excellent with heated leather seats and the same BOSE sound system as a LEAF SVE. But yes, the cabin is smaller. It is a smaller class car after all.

Dexter1979

Other things to potentially consider:

- The Zoe is not as powerful as a LEAF. 0 - 50kph is great but it's slower after this. It's limited to 134kph as well.
- The heat pump is better in the Zoe vs the LEAF.
- The R-Link (Renault Sat Nav and entertainment system) maps can be updates or expanded (at cost) and don't look like a child drew them.
- Remote pre-conditioning via the app is hit and miss and can only be done if the battery is over 45% or the car is charging.
- Heated mirrors are standard vs optional on a LEAF.
- Internal storage in a LEAF is much better. The cup holders actually fit cups in a LEAF and the arm rest storage is standard vs optional (and not as nicely done) in a ZOE.
- Much more road noise in the ZOE
- No google maps intergration in the ZOE but you can manually add points as well as edit the content of the SD card using third party software
- When on longer journeys if a FCP breaks you are only delayed for about 20 minutes if at all.
- Dual charging on FCP's seems to be rolled back in a lot of locations that have a DBT charger. It's still fine using a Efacec triple standard.
- 22kW SCP's are usually in more central locations and can be very useful when shopping. I park for an hour in Cork city and I'm more or less fully charged upon my return.

isnottheword

goz83 wrote: »

You're nuts

Is that just sense of humour or do you really believe I'm nuts to make the switch? If the latter, I'd be grateful if you could articulate your reasons as to why. You could be donig me a major favour and stave me off making a mistake in switching to the Zoe.

Dexter1979 wrote: »

Yes, no bother. You would make the 128km in one charge most of the year if you mind your speed and the usual weather term & conditions. You will be pretty low on battery when you get home though so a 5 minute stop at a FCP or even a 22kW SCP would be a security blanket. I did J3, M8 to Dublin Airport without issue a few times with no issue driving at 95 - 100kph.

See that would be worth it's weight in gold to me...even if I had to just do 5 mins (instead of 30) charging, IF all other things are equal, it's worth my while making the move.

Dexter1979 wrote: »

The rumours you are reading is a bug in the new 41kWh versions with the Q90 engines. They seem to top out at about 34kW when charging at a 43kW charger. Renault are working on this

Thanks for info - that's solved that mystery.

Dexter1979 wrote: »

Resale values for Renaults are poor.

But is that not just symptomatic of most of those R. Zoe's being battery-lease (and it makes NO financial sense to have an old Zoe on battery lease)? Do you think that it would depreciate faster than the equivalent Leaf?

Dexter1979 wrote: »

Time kills battery capacity so degradation will be pretty similar, I would suspect.. Zoe's seem to be holding their own just fine. Most 3 year old Zoe's are at around 92% State of Health (SOH) as far as I can see. There is also a BMS bug that gives a false low SOH which Renault have fixed. Someone saw their battery SOH go from 88% to 98% following the installation of the fix.

Ok, well so long as it's not worse than the Leaf, I can live with that.

Dexter1979 wrote: »

Unlikely unless the control electronics break which is rare. In this case the 5 year warranty would just mean a simple battery replacement.

Again, if no noticeable difference with the Leaf in this instance, I'm happy with that.

Dexter1979 wrote: »

You will not make money on your car, therefore you will end up spending more money getting the Zoe.

You mean making money in terms of selling off my current Leaf? Hard to say - as it was the cheapest 141 on the market at the time of purchase (and I've struggled to find anything priced similar since) when I bought it back in August. I'd plan on selling it privately rather than trade in.

The Zoe is a tad more expensive but it's 1.5 years newer, with less mileage and more remaining warranty.

Dexter1979 wrote: »

If you are doing it from a practicality point of view then go ahead.

My rationale is three-fold;

1. It could make my commute a hell of a lot more convenient and time efficient.
2. It may lead to saving money in a scenario whereby public charging goes fee based (I would only have to spend a miniscule amount on public charging and the rest at 6cents / kWh on nightrate at home. The Leaf may not be as accommodating (given my experience of having to charge substantially on the public system half way through the roundtrip commute).
3. It offers the potential of being able to upgrade to a 40kW battery. Of course, I cannot depend on this as Renault may announce absolutely insane prices for such an upgrade. That said, they are taking a far more progressive approach than Nissan in this respect...and I'd have the hope that maybe Renault will soften their battery replacement costs in a year or two from now.

Other things to potentially consider:

Dexter1979 wrote:

- The Zoe is not as powerful as a LEAF. 0 - 50kph is great but it's slower after this. It's limited to 134kph as well. [Not bothered. Lets just say I had some Traffic Corps problems before buying the Leaf - not a single point on license since -and I want to keep it that way!]
- The heat pump is better in the Zoe vs the LEAF. COLOR="red"]Again, doesn't bother me[/COLOR
- The R-Link (Renault Sat Nav and entertainment system) maps can be updates or expanded (at cost) and don't look like a child drew them. COLOR="red"]not too bothered as long as they're generally functional?? The Leaf Nav system leaves a lot to be desired also[/COLOR
- Remote pre-conditioning via the app is hit and miss and can only be done if the battery is over 45% or the car is charging. COLOR="red"]Not a major issue for me[/COLOR
- Heated mirrors are standard vs optional on a LEAF.
- Internal storage in a LEAF is much better. The cup holders actually fit cups in a LEAF and the arm rest storage is standard vs optional (and not as nicely done) in a ZOE. COLOR="red"]Just myself using the car - so not bothered[/COLOR
- Much more road noise in the ZOE COLOR="red"]Can live with it[/COLOR
- No google maps intergration in the ZOE but you can manually add points as well as edit the content of the SD card using third party software
- When on longer journeys if a FCP breaks you are only delayed for about 20 minutes if at all.
- Dual charging on FCP's seems to be rolled back in a lot of locations that have a DBT charger. It's still fine using a Efacec triple standard.
- 22kW SCP's are usually in more central locations and can be very useful when shopping. I park for an hour in Cork city and I'm more or less fully charged upon my return.

I know these things are subjective but on the basis of what I've outlined above, does the switch make sense?

goz83

I get the impression that you're fishing for reasons to make an unnecessary change in car. The one good reason is the fast charge rate at an scp. The vanity reason is the plate (otherwise the 152 wouldn't have been mentioned and you'd have said the Zoe is a year younger). The other unsaid reason is what I call "the itch". The newness of any car wears off after 6 months and sometimes that leaves us to find fantasy reasons/justifications to change a car that is serving us perfectly fine. Hell, I understand it better than most. I bought an 800 euro professional masticating juicer when a 30 euro juicer served my needs just fine.

If you don't believe your vision is blinkered, just look at the good stuff you'd be leaving behind by switching. Compare what the Leaf has to what the Zoe doesn't. Not saying the Zoe is not a good car and is comparable to the Leaf, but have your eyes open and ask yourself what you would tell someone else to do in your situation.

Or maybe I'm just completely wrong. Anyway....have fun

isnottheword

goz83 wrote: »

I get the impression that you're fishing for reasons to make an unnecessary change in car.

I think I've found good reasons. That said in as much as I may be looking for validation, It's even more important to me that people come forward with reasons that discredit this idea (just in case I sleepwalk myself into a bad deal).

goz83 wrote: »

The one good reason is the fast charge rate at an scp.

When I first went shopping for an EV, this was one of the major plus points (from my point of view) to opt for the Zoe (was it not for the ruddy battery rental).

goz83 wrote: »

The vanity reason is the plate (otherwise the 152 wouldn't have been mentioned and you'd have said the Zoe is a year younger).

If you knew me, you'd appreciate that this isn't the reason. The 141 Leaf is the newest car I've ever bought (at least out of my own pocket - I had a company car for a time - back in the day). Notwithstanding that, I am conscious that others suffer from this 'vanity factor' - and I'm keeping it in mind on the basis that it may help to secure a better resale price IF (and that's a big IF) I wish to offload it later on.

goz83 wrote: »

The other unsaid reason is what I call "the itch". The newness of any car wears off after 6 months and sometimes that leaves us to find fantasy reasons/justifications to change a car that is serving us perfectly fine.

Again, I understand what your saying but I don't really think its that. Yes, I'm a happy camper with the Leaf but I had to make (and continue to make) several trade-offs in going with the Leaf (I went in with my eyes open - so it was nothing that I wasn't prepared for).
That said, I'm looking at the Zoe and I'm thinking it may well resolve a few of those primary trade-offs eg. 22kW charging (which I'd have occasion to benefit from quite often and potentially could save me a whole lot of time).

Also, IF it reduces the need for me to do a recharging pitstop on my work commute that would be another major plus. A good few folks have come back and said that 80 miles may not always be possible - but if it reduced the time I needed to spend at a charger from the current scenario with the Leaf (30 mins there - and the time taken to drive there and back ...and that's assuming it's free) - then that's a major advantage to me and my circumstances.
Furthermore, I have one eye towards fees for public charging coming down the tracks. I thought I'd have to switch to an Ioniq to combat this - but it's going to be a considerable amount of time before there's a used Iconiq on the market that's affordable to me. If the Zoe can do the range (or all but do the range, then I can charge 99% of the time on nightrate at 6 cents/kWh. My current Leaf won't be able to achieve that.

goz83 wrote: »

If you don't believe your vision is blinkered, just look at the good stuff you'd be leaving behind by switching. Compare what the Leaf has to what the Zoe doesn't.

I could well be blinkered - that's why I'm posting here - so that people help me to wise up IF i'm making a mistake :-)
What in your view am I leaving behind by casting aside the Leaf for the Zoe?

I'm not looking for validation - I'm actually looking for folks to rip the hell out of my idea (with reasons) - so that if anything relevant crops up, I'll step back from the brink (in the event that I'm making a big mistake).

So ....if my vision is blinkered, please do point out exactly where I'm going astray. Otherwise, I may be about to spend a lot of hard earned money in error. :-)


Thanks in advance for any further input.

unkel

isnottheword wrote: »

1. It could make my commute a hell of a lot more convenient and time efficient.

The only thing that would make your commute a hell of a lot more convenient is when you don't have stop to charge anymore.

You need to buy a car that can do the return trip without charging. You know this full well. So instead of faffing about and wasting a couple of grand of your money, save for a bit longer until you can afford what you need.

goz83

Fair enough on the vanity response. I mention it only because you were so specific in saying that you would be going from a 141 to 152. Me, I would just have said it's a year younger.

The itch isn't just a "new" car thing. You could have something 10 years old and the thought of change comes around after a few months. I know it does with most people I know.....even though the thought is rarely acted upon.

The leaf is a more comfortable and more spacious car. For me, that would be important if doing enough miles to exhaust the battery in a single trip. I also think it's a better built car....and that's because it's not a Renault. My experiences of Renault are not good. I've rented and borrowed a few and there was always something wrong with them. There's a reason they are usually a good bit cheaper than a comparable car. I would need to be very impressed to be convinced to go with a Renault. Don't they often have electrical issues......and isn't the Zoe an electrical car

I'm taking the p!ss a little here, but I am serious when I say that I don't see enough reason to move to a Zoe. It's too small a move. I would be going for a 30kw leaf in your situation before getting a Zoe. I realise it's more expensive to do that though.

unkel

@isnottheword - my post up there is a bit blunt. Not trying to be a dick and I know you'd rather I speak my mind than just be nice

goz83 wrote: »

I also think it's a better built car....and that's because it's not a Renault.

But the Leaf is a Renault

isnottheword

unkel wrote: »

The only thing that would make your commute a hell of a lot more convenient is when you don't have stop to charge anymore.
You need to buy a car that can do the return trip without charging. You know this full well.

Of course I'd love to do the 80 mile commute and have lots of range left over. However, I'm not about to order up a Tesla S. Tongue in cheek - I'll bring that example a bit closer. I'm not about to order up a Hyundai Ioniq. I'd love to - but I simply won't spend that sort of money on a car. To wait for it to come down to the price point I have in mind is going to take a few years (I suspect between supply constraints and it fairing out better in the used market than the Leaf, it will take longer to trickle down).
It's hard to get real tangible feedback. However, I've stuck up this query in a number of specialist online spaces - and the general consensus seems to be that either I'll get the 80 mile commute or I'll be very very close to getting the 80 mile commute.
Just to let you know what that means in terms of convenience for me - I have to use my last break at work exclusively to drive to the other side of town to FCP the Leaf - 10 minutes there, 30 minutes charging and 10 minutes back (I hope work aren't reading! ...lol). If I only had to top up a little bit - I can top up at a 22kW post (located right next to work) for a few minutes. That's a major improvement for me.

unkel wrote: »

So instead of faffing about and wasting a couple of grand of your money, save for a bit longer until you can afford what you need.

Am I going to waste a couple of grand? If so, where? Is it that you believe that the Zoe will lose value OR that I'll lose cash on selling on my 141 Acenta 6.6 obc?
As regards saving, I'm a modest blue collar worker, but I could go out and buy a brand new Ioniq tomorrow. However - as much as I love what that car offers, I can't justify the outlay (no disrespect to you - I can see from your posts that you're a savvy buyer but in a couple of months, something else will be flavour of the month...and on and on it goes).

goz83 wrote: »

Fair enough on the vanity response. I mention it only because you were so specific in saying that you would be going from a 141 to 152. Me, I would just have said it's a year younger.

If I was, I guess it was because I agree with you to an extent. People do look at the plates rather than the actual car. With that, there are a couple of things. I can get out from under the Leaf having put on a significant amount of mileage on - over a very short space of time - and shift to another car with half the mileage - and a fresher warranty on the car and on the battery. Furthermore, who's to say (if this works out), that I won't go the same way again in a years time - and ultimately get as far as the Ioniq. And if I do, can I not take advantage of all of those 'vanity' buyers who have to have a fresher registration??

goz83 wrote: »

The itch isn't just a "new" car thing. You could have something 10 years old and the thought of change comes around after a few months. I know it does with most people I know.....even though the thought is rarely acted upon.

I do have an 'itch' in the sense that I sense an opportunity (unless someone makes me see the light ...in the event that I've got it wrong...)....not because I feel a need to declare to the world - look at my new set of wheels. In fairness, neither of these cars are 'sexy'!...but I couldnt give a fiddlers about that.

goz83 wrote: »

The leaf is a more comfortable and more spacious car. For me, that would be important if doing enough miles to exhaust the battery in a single trip.

I get that - but these are not things that bother me all too much. I've driven a Fiesta, an old Astra and a Fiesta Van on that commute previously - never really bothered me in terms of 'comfort'. As regards spacious - 99% single occupancy - so as long as there's room for me and my clobber, I couldn't give a fiddlers about passenger seat or back seat.

goz83 wrote: »

I also think it's a better built car....and that's because it's not a Renault. My experiences of Renault are not good. I've rented and borrowed a few and there was always something wrong with them. There's a reason they are usually a good bit cheaper than a comparable car. I would need to be very impressed to be convinced to go with a Renault. Don't they often have electrical issues......and isn't the Zoe an electrical car

You may be onto something here alright. Down through the years, Renault have had a woeful reputation. However, ICE tech has become much of a muchness in the last few years - hard to differentiate between manufacturers. As regards the Zoe, are there known issues with it??

N.B. - not trying to stubbornly refute what ye're sayin'. Just trying to give some extra detail on how this move may be beneficial to my particular set of circumstances.
If you still see some glaring oversights on my part, please do chip back in. I'd like to think that I've helped out a few folk on here (as well as having been helped out by others with my initial EV purchase) - so would hope folks would speak up if they see something that doesn't add up in what I'm proposing or the rationale that I'm basing that decision on. :-)

unkel wrote:

@isnottheword - my post up there is a bit blunt. Not trying to be a dick and I know you'd rather I speak my mind than just be nice

Spot on. Don't worry - I'm no precious snowflake . Tear my plans above to shreds (albeit that I'd like to see the thinking behind that) - rather than tell me what I may want to hear. The truth hurts but it cures - and IF I'm making a bad decision here, then I'd rather come to that conclusion now rather than after the fact.

peposhi

I get the feeling you really wish to get rid of the inconvenience re charging the Leaf. And you wish to make the change rather soon than late.
I am not aware of your budget, but I do believe /unless you go for the new 41kw Zoe/ there is no point going for an old one.
You could be quite happy with a 30kw 6.6 Leaf. It will definitely cover your journey in any weather conditions .

isnottheword

peposhi wrote: »

I get the feeling you really wish to get rid of the inconvenience re charging the Leaf. And you wish to make the change rather soon than late.

Not quite. I knew exactly what I was getting into when I bought the Gen 1.5 Leaf and on the whole, I'm very pleased with it. Of course, it comes with some cumbersome issues - but they were a known entity from the outset (and without them, I dare say it would cost us all a hell of a lot more to run EV's).

I came across an opportunity in the past 24 hours that may help alleviate or minimise some of the inconveniences surrounding my current ownership of a Leaf (I stress 'my' ownership - as there are many Leaf drivers that don't do the sort of commute I do). The only urgency is that I need to form an opinion on this pretty swiftish - whether that be to go for it or forget about the idea. Reason being that battery owned Zoe's are like hens teeth.

peposhi wrote: »

I am not aware of your budget, but I do believe /unless you go for the new 41kw Zoe

I simply will not go out and buy a 40kW Zoe straight off the bat when it comes out. I don't have those sort of means.

peposhi wrote: »

You could be quite happy with a 30kw 6.6 Leaf. It will definitely cover your journey in any weather conditions .

Again, I am not prepared to buy in at the current pricepoint for a 30kw 6.6 Leaf.

I think it's getting lost on people that this Zoe could save me a minimum of half an hour every day of the week.

unkel

isnottheword wrote: »

I came across an opportunity in the past 24 hours that may help alleviate or minimise some of the inconveniences surrounding my current ownership of a Leaf

Very cheap gen 1 Zoe? For very little money? Nice! Zoe is a lovely little car anyway and the fast slow charging is a big trump card. With FCP network not getting any investment any time soon, it's a huge bonus to drive up to any of them, with no waiting time if it is already occupied as the Zoe can take the fast AC when the DC is busy.

Had a good look into the back of a lovely colour and spec Leaf the other day when I was fast charging and there is no way our family of 5 would have fitted into the Leaf comfortably. The Leaf looks like a big car, but it really is quite small. And for yourself not needing more than yourself in the car, the Zoe is more than big enough. Or should I encourage you to buy a twizy?

peposhi

isnottheword wrote: »

.

I think it's getting lost on people that this Zoe could save me a minimum of half an hour every day of the week.

How much would the Leaf to Zoe change set you back?
Would you be happy saving 2.5 hours a week of your time/presuming you work 5 days a week/ for that kind of money?

isnottheword

unkel wrote: »

Or should I encourage you to buy a twizy?

The Twizy is where I draw the line. :-)

peposhi wrote: »

How much would the Leaf to Zoe change set you back?

If all goes to plan, I'd hope that it doesn't set me back at all. I can put the Leaf on the market and still have it advertised for far less than any car in it's class here in Ireland (and I'm accounting for the irish thing of 'marking up with a view to taking a chunk off the sales price to make the buyer feel better!).
Now I could be as far out as a lighthouse there - and I doubt I'd enjoy the process of selling (it's far easier buy something than sell it)...but I'm prepared to give it a go.

peposhi wrote: »

Would you be happy saving 2.5 hours a week of your time/presuming you work 5 days a week/ for that kind of money?

If it's a straight swap, then yes - albeit as above - that remains to be seen. There's also more time to be saved at 22kW posts. Less range anxiety as a result of being able to utilise 22kW posts effectively. Lastly, there's a slight possibility of having the option to upgrade to a 40kW battery (well, by all accounts theres every possibility of doing so - it's just that it's believed that it will be uneconomic to do so initially. My hope would be in a year or two, Renault might price more sympathetically for such an upgrade. At best, the Leaf can be upgraded to 30kW - but even that's not officially supported).

ei9go

Charles Hurst has a brand new battery owned Zoe i Expression on autotrader for 10k GBP.

peposhi

peposhi wrote: »

I get the feeling you really wish to get rid of the inconvenience re charging the Leaf. And you wish to make the change rather soon than late.
I am not aware of your budget, but I do believe /unless you go for the new 41kw Zoe/ there is no point going for an old one.
You could be quite happy with a 30kw 6.6 Leaf. It will definitely cover your journey in any weather conditions .

Have to agree here, from a pure financial point of view the 30 Kwh Leaf represents cracking value for money with more range, better interior, larger car, more power.

Dexter mentioned that the Zoe was reporting poorer battery health and this was "fixed" by Renault, this sounds very suspicious to mee and seems like a stunt to get out of replacing batteries for as long as possible.

Dexter, from chatting to you on FB it seemed my battery was doing a lot better than your Zoe for roughly the same mileage and age.

peposhi

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Have to agree here, from a pure financial point of view the 30 Kwh Leaf represents cracking value for money with more range, better interior, larger car, more power.

Mad_Lad, the OP is looking for the convenience of having a 1000 /or some particular in this case/ SCPs available to top up the car 2.5 times quicker than the 6.6kW Leaf... the size, interior and the rest is not rellevant.

OP, I see less and less reasons for you not to go for Zoe. And in a few years time, if need be, you can retrofit a bigger battery in it.

If buying new now then the Ioniq would be the top of my list, 180 ish kms range and 65 Kw charging on the fast charger.

My experience of it was 15.3 Kwh/100 kms over 207 Kms, first 60 Kms were wet roads , quiet breezy and 10 Deg C, quiet typical of winter driving in Ireland and not nearly the worst weather either, roughly 110 Kph for about 130 Kms and the rest about 90-100 Kph. Not bad. But oh the fast charging ......... it's actually fast ! You could probably get 200 kms driving at 100 Kph.

Yes the 22 Kw charging is great in Zoe but it's not my cup of tea. The 40 Kwh version sounds attractive but Leaf II (face life 1.5 ?) is not that far away now and I'd hold out until then.

Be warned that Zoe has a version with only 22 Kw charging and one with 3-44 Kw charging, you want the one with the fastest charging !!!

They also have a 75 HP version now which is absolutely disgracefully underpowered for such a heavy car but typical of Renault in their attempts to improve efficiency they reduced power rather than increasing power for a more enjoyable drive....... I'm not sure if this 75 HP version is available yet but I would avoid at all costs, the 90 Hp is underpowered enough. 75 Hp 15-18 seconds 0-100 reminds me of the days of 55 Hp non turbo diesels.......

isnottheword

Hi all. Firstly, thanks to you all for your feedback and constructive criticism - it was invaluable in me coming to a decision on this. I've decided to stick rather than twist - and stay with the Leaf for the moment. Here's why...

- When I first looked at buying an EV, it was the Zoe I wanted. The 22kW charging was a massive draw. However, Renault and their damned battery leasing nonsense mean't (for me) that I simply couldn't go that way.

- This one popped up - reasonably priced - and battery owned. I had to consider it. If I had gotten a unanimous response to it's ability to do 80 miles without charging, I'd probably have made an offer/tried to buy it. Don't get me wrong. I knew exactly what I was buying into when I bought the Leaf. It has served me (and is serving me) well - having saved me €1300+ in 8 months. That said, I knew going in that there were certain sacrifices to be made - and one of those for me is having to access public charging every day.

- Someone suggested going the way of a 30kW Leaf. Right now - for me at least - they're not at the right price point. Secondly, as the Ioniq has shown - the Leaf is not very efficient so another 6kW is not all that glamorous (given that it's the end of the road for that line of Leaf and they're switching to a new form factor for the next one). I'll keep my eyes open for an opportunity but I have a feeling I'll be skipping the 30kW.

- IF the Zoe could have achieved the 80 mile roundtrip, the 22kW charging on SCP's would have been the icing on the cake. Secondly, there's scope for a battery upgrade. Renault have indicated that they will facilitate this. However, they have indicated an absurd battery pack upgrade price (they're making far too much off of the leasing arrangement and with that, they're having difficulty weaning themselves off it - between that and wanting to sell new cars).

- I'd have had to have gone to the trouble of selling my existing Leaf. I believe it's very saleable and can be offered at cheaper than any such Leaf (with these features) in Ireland. Despite that, selling is always a pain in the arás.

- I guess I need a 2nd hand Ioniq. The issue there is that I'll be waiting for it to hit the right pricepoint. Furthermore, regardless of what develops next, I don't think we will see massive depreciation like we did with the Leaf.


Anyway, that Zoe is still on autotrader and is perfect for someone with the right driving profile! If that's you, don't hang back.

goz83

which one were you looking at?

I set my Leaf on fire in the garden....someone said it was a Renault

isnottheword

goz83 wrote: »

I set my Leaf on fire in the garden....someone said it was a Renault

If you took that as bad news, then you did the right thing. There's very little difference between your Nissan and a Renault in today's world. I remember the 80's n 90's and the rep that Renault had. In recent years, they've all converged (at least for ICE tech - perhaps there will be some degrees of separation once again with EV tech....ala Tesla..).

unkel

isnottheword wrote: »

I guess I need a 2nd hand Ioniq.

Or a second gen Zoe 40kW. With the shortage of supply of new Ioniqs, that might be a better bet this time next year or so (probably UK import). Probably a good bit cheaper too, but the cost to change will be a good bit higher than switching to a '16 30kWh Leaf now though (which you don't want). So better start saving

ELM327

As a 2014 leaf owner myself with a similar commute to you OP it's a decision I've been mulling over aswell.

The outcome for me was that I was going to stick with my leaf. I've done 30,000 km in the 6-7 months I have it, it drives a minimum of 110km every day monday to sunday and often more. Therefore I would lose a lot in depreciation if i trade in. My plan with the leaf I have (6.6 ac so not as bad as the 3.3, but not anywhere near 22 lol) is to keep it till I can't use it anymore. My one is SVE spec so has a few toys that a Zoe wouldnt have (Heated steering wheel, heated leather seats etc).It will be paid off in a little over 2 years, and even with the loan repayments it's still saving me over €100 per month on fuel costs alone. Factoring in cheaper tax/insurance/service costs compared to my old 2.0 diesels it is a money saver.

I have workplace charging so unless the range drops below 60-70 km from 100% it's still perfectly viable.

I estimate that in 2 years time even if my leaf is totally deprecated to a value of 0, it has still saved me thousands. And of course it will not be at a value of 0, because the battery could be used for storage.



Once

isnottheword

@ELM327 - yes it looks like your scenario is all but identical to mine - only difference I see is that you're on SVE and I'm on Acenta (SV). Otherwise, it's same car, same year, same driving profile/mileage.

As of today, I'm exactly 7 months in - and have saved €1280 on fuel alone. That's before savings on servicing (and due to mileage, I was shelling out quite a bit each year on that), tax and a modest saving on insurance.

Ever the opportunist, I'll keep an eye out for anything of value that comes along. That said, I agree with your point on holding on to it. The scenario is no different than when I was driving an ICE. Like you, I clock up lots of miles fast - and that gets to a point where it starts to scare potential buyers (were I to move it on). Unfortunately, the Ioniq is going to be scarce so unlikely that we will see much value in that in the used market for quite some time. Will watch the ZE40 and see how fast it depreciates. Even though Renault now offer battery-owned as well as battery leased, UK buyers seem to still opt for battery-leased and so there may not be a sufficient supply of battery-owned stock to snag one on the cheap.

In any case, I'm definitely not complaining - cash saved every month. Might look at it again once charging for charging comes in. Aside from the convenience, being able to achieve the complete commute on the one charge at that stage would mean I could put the whole thing on nightrate @ 6 cents/kWh. Never hurts to plan ahead. :-)

unkel

ELM327 wrote: »

As a 2014 leaf owner myself with a similar commute to you OP it's a decision I've been mulling over aswell.

The outcome for me was that I was going to stick with my leaf.

Big difference is that you have work charging and the OP is forced to waste 2.5 hours a week on fast charging on his way home from work. Not the worst thing in the world given the massive financial saving (and fast charging is free too), but from a convenience point of view a car that can do the whole commute without charging would make a big difference

One thing I don't think OP mentioned - is there no chance of work charging? Even granny cable and you pay for the electricity?

I used the charge point for 9 months and wouldn't recommend it. All I needed was 10 mins to get me home driving at decent speeds all of 130 Kms. Sometimes I took back roads home at much slower speeds and I would also not recommend this. I could do it at 100 Kph up but home was a stretch at 60-80-100 Kph. Probably not in the coldest of weather.

A 30 Kwh Leaf would do this comfortably though my commute is now about 141 Kms. Still no issue for the 30 Kwh at 100 Kph but that would still restrict me some what as my commute is now mainly motorway and that's no issue in the 24 Kwh Leaf at 130 Km/h with work charging.

The greatest issue was not charging on the way home but some dick head locals using the Naas Charger for free electricity.

isnottheword

unkel wrote: »

Big difference is that you have work charging and the OP is forced to waste 2.5 hours a week on fast charging on his way home from work

Not even as bad as that in fairness. I manage to get that done on a break in the middle of the working day - and use the opportunity to stretch the legs and drop down the shops (before anyone asks, I know precisely how long my charge takes and I'm back well in advance of unplugging).
I probably wouldn't be doing much else during that break time so it's not such a big deal - it's just that the odd time I probably couldn't be bothered given the choice.

unkel wrote: »

One thing I don't think OP mentioned - is there no chance of work charging? Even granny cable and you pay for the electricity?

Yes, I thought that was sorted but there's been a couple of teething problems. Should be available soon - albeit it will be a fee-based model. If a workable/affordable solution allowed for an EV that would do the complete commute with just the one charge on nightrate that would be my preference. However, in the meantime, I'm not complaining. This is what I signed up for originally and it's working out exactly as expected.

ELM327

This has reignited my looking at Zoes again.
There's a 2015 one for sale at the moment which looks rather tempting. Claimed battery owned, it's a recent import according to the history check, imported by a private individual 4 weeks ago. Is that of concern for an EV like it would be for an ICE?

isnottheword

ELM327 wrote: »

This has reignited my looking at Zoes again.
There's a 2015 one for sale at the moment which looks rather tempting. Claimed battery owned, it's a recent import according to the history check, imported by a private individual 4 weeks ago. Is that of concern for an EV like it would be for an ICE?

On the basis of the 22kW charging I take it?....as I'm assuming it's not a 41kWh Zoe - they wouldn't have been around in 2015. I wouldn't be put off by private seller - so long as you do your due diligence and cover all your bases in checking out the car, paperwork and most important of all, go the right way around the payment end of things.

flanzer

Hi guys,
Sorry for the thread resurrection. We're looking at importing a Zoe for the wife from the UK. Most of have a battery lease on them (well the cheap ones anyway!). What's the situation with the lease if you export it from the UK? Can I renew the lease in Ireland?

Do I have to renew the lease even?

isnottheword

flanzer wrote: »

Hi guys,
Sorry for the thread resurrection. We're looking at importing a Zoe for the wife from the UK. Most of have a battery lease on them (well the cheap ones anyway!). What's the situation with the lease if you export it from the UK? Can I renew the lease in Ireland?

Do I have to renew the lease even?

It can be done - but think long and hard about the financial feasibility of it. Certainly wouldn't be my choice but horses for courses...

unkel

+1

It might look very cheap and very good value now, but do realise that the resale value will be about zero in a year or two. You can't sell the car without having signed someone elsen up to the battery lease. And you can not buy out the battery lease. Renault's finance company is not interested. The only option you have is scrap the car or hand it over to a Renault dealer (for free, or worse, you might have to pay a charge for the removal and shipment of the battery)

There's a silver lining though: you will be able to upgrade the older small capacity battery to a new high capacity one for very reasonable money (but your monthly lease will go up too)

ELM327

unkel wrote: »

+1

It might look very cheap and very good value now, but do realise that the resale value will be about zero in a year or two. You can't sell the car without having signed someone elsen up to the battery lease. And you can not buy out the battery lease. Renault's finance company is not interested. The only option you have is scrap the car or hand it over to a Renault dealer (for free, or worse, you might have to pay a charge for the removal and shipment of the battery)

There's a silver lining though: you will be able to upgrade the older small capacity battery to a new high capacity one for very reasonable money (but your monthly lease will go up too)

When doing this, you also have the option to move from "leased" to "owned" battery, at a price premium rumoured to be 10k across EU

unkel

Interesting option, but €10k is massive money. I believe it is €3k to just upgrade the battery? The difference between the two would pay for 7 years battery lease (and warranty). You'd be mad to go for the former...

ELM327

unkel wrote: »

Interesting option, but €10k is massive money. I believe it is €3k to just upgrade the battery? The difference between the two would pay for 7 years battery lease (and warranty). You'd be mad to go for the former...

Not if you intended owning the car longer than 7 years, using your figures.
Or if you intended reselling.

flanzer

Thanks folks. The wife has an 06 Focus and we're looking to change. The car is only used for Mon-Fri work commute, a 12km round trip with a couple of detours here and there for kids and shopping.

Having really only looked at EVs this week, there really is no incentive to buy one I feel, with 'hidden' charges like battery leases and installation charges for a home charge point (I know it's free for new vehicles). If the additional charges were tax deductible, it may be worth it alright

I might look at a hybrid like an Auris

liamog

flanzer wrote: »

Thanks folks. The wife has an 06 Focus and we're looking to change. The car is only used for Mon-Fri work commute, a 12km round trip with a couple of detours here and there for kids and shopping.

Having really only looked at EVs this week, there really is no incentive to buy one I feel, with 'hidden' charges like battery leases and installation charges for a home charge point (I know it's free for new vehicles). If the additional charges were tax deductible, it may be worth it alright

I might look at a hybrid like an Auris

There may be news coming before the end of year re expanding the charger incentive to second hand cars.