NBA Playoffs 2017

D2D

Can the Cavs repeat as champs? Can the Celtics take the East after claiming the #1 seed? Can anyone take down Golden State for the West? Is OKC/Houston the must watch series of the bunch?


So many questions so welcome to the 2017 NBA Playoffs!!



East Match-ups

1) Boston Celtics vs. 8) Chicago Bulls
2) Cleveland Cavaliers vs. 7) Indiana Pacers
3) Toronto Raptors vs. 6) Milwaukee Bucks
4) Washington Wizards vs. 5) Atlanta Hawks

West Match-ups

1) Golden State Warriors vs. 8) Portland Trail-Blazers
2) San Antonio Spurs vs. 7) Memphis Grizzlies
3) Houston Rockets vs. 6) Oklahoma City Thunder
4) Los Angeles Clippers vs. 5) Utah Jazz

Tip Off times for this weekend:

Saturday, April 15

8 p.m (3 p.m EST) - Pacers@Cavs
10:30 p.m (5:30 p.m EST) - Bucks@Raptors
1 a.m (8 p.m EST) - Grizz@Spurs
3.30 a.m (10.30 EST) - Jazz@Clippers

Sunday, April 16

6 p.m (1 p.m EST) - Hawks@Wizards
8:30 p.m (3.30 p.m EST) - Trail-Blazers@Warriors
11:30 p.m (6:30 p.m EST) - Bulls@Celtics
2 a.m (9 p.m EST) - Thunder@Rockers

NBA League Pass are having a free weekend and most of the above games should be on BT Sport going by the upcoming tv listings

brady23

East Match-ups

1) Boston Celtics vs. 8) Chicago Bulls
Celtics in 6

2) Cleveland Cavaliers vs. 7) Indiana Pacers Cavs in 5

3) Toronto Raptors vs. 6) Milwaukee Bucks
Raptors in 6 (wish Jabari was playing would be closer)

4) Washington Wizards vs. 5) Atlanta Hawks
Wizards in 6

West Match-ups

1) Golden State Warriors vs. 8) Portland Trail-Blazers
GSW I want to say in 4 but Lillard might will them to one so gonna say GSW in 5

2) San Antonio Spurs vs. 7) Memphis Grizzlies
Spurs in 6

3) Houston Rockets vs. 6) Oklahoma City Thunder
Rockets in 6

4) Los Angeles Clippers vs. 5) Utah Jazz
The closest one for me, I want to say the Jazz but post season experience and that bit extra on offense so Clippers in 7

Pretty boring selections in those match ups but don't see much of an upset happening tbh.


Also Lowe with his award picks and he actually gets a vote, a few interesting omissions for some and says DPOY is the closest race for him:

http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/19140550/zach-lowe-picks-nba-mvp-defensive-player-year-rookie-year-more-awards

Gregk961

brady23 wrote: »

Also Lowe with his award picks and he actually gets a vote, a few interesting omissions for some and says DPOY is the closest race for him:

http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/19140550/zach-lowe-picks-nba-mvp-defensive-player-year-rookie-year-more-awards

Its hard to argue with a lot of what Lowe says, although I do disagree with his conclusion(its Westbrook for me)

"One free throw rebound and one uncontested defensive board per night don't, on their own, make Westbrook a superior candidate."

The above quote is a huge hole in Westbrooks MVP campaign,obviously the voters will see this but his body of work outside the triple double is what makes him my MVP. The eye test of how bad the thunder look without him on the court combined with their team record seals it for me.

brady23

Gregk961 wrote: »

brady23 wrote: »

Also Lowe with his award picks and he actually gets a vote, a few interesting omissions for some and says DPOY is the closest race for him:

http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/19140550/zach-lowe-picks-nba-mvp-defensive-player-year-rookie-year-more-awards

Its hard to argue with a lot of what Lowe says, although I do disagree with his conclusion(its Westbrook for me)

"One free throw rebound and one uncontested defensive board per night don't, on their own, make Westbrook a superior candidate."

The above quote is a huge hole in Westbrooks MVP campaign,obviously the voters will see this but his body of work outside the triple double is what makes him my MVP. The eye test of how bad the thunder look without him on the court combined with their team record seals it for me.

I would have disagreed with you and pretty much repeated what Lowe said about a month ago regarding Westbrook but argued for Harden. I mentioned something similar a few weeks ago about Westbrooks numbers  vs Harden's but what has swung it for me has been Westbrooks ability to win games late on for OKC.

I think his late game heroics has won OKC roughly 5 games since the all star break and it's those games that make the difference for me. They have been so memorable ie 42 triple doubles vs Denver and the 60 point triple double.

Without them I revert to Lowe's argument and say well those extra few stats aren't worth 13 games between Harden and Westbrook and although I still don't think they're necessarily worth 8 games, without the "Take Over" mentality he's displayed they wouldnt be close to where they are.

Personally I don't share the opinion of many in saying that Westbrook is working with weaker players than Harden; based on win shares, other stats and even the eye test over the past few years
How many people would say Gordon, Anderson and Beverley have been more productive than Kanter, Adams and Oladipo in recent years? If any of us were building a team in the morning, most would probably take the three from OKC.

However I would agree with the opinion of many that Harden has a superior coach and one of the best GMs in sports in Daryl Morey. The design of the Rockets is so superior and Donovan is pretty poor imo.

Although I would prefer to see Harden win, Westbrook has done enough for me.
If you're being as objective as possible you probably have to agree with Lowe and say Kawhi because of what he adds to a team that has won 61 games and they'd be a mid 40s team without him but I don't believe all those voting will be that objective.
The Cavs demise in the past few months has pretty much resigned LBJ to 4th place in the voting arguably 5th if some like Giannis/Isiah/Wall enough.

I don't think Westbrook is a shoe in at all because I think the more media members look at the whole season, they'll lean more towards Harden and Kawhi but there are no doubts that Westbrook few heroic games in the past few months are fresher in the minds of voters.
Silver also reduced the amount of voters, who lost their vote? I'm curious of the criteria. He's progressive perhaps more voters are in the stats based Nate Silver/Zach Lowe camp more than the traditionalist Ernie Johnson camp. 
Equally those traditionalists who do get a vote could say well he didn't get 50 wins which has been a pre-requiste since 1983 so who knows.

Those ridiculous come from behind wins obviously aren't worth more in theory but I think that those memorable performances will tip it Westbrooks way plus I think people like his attitude to not campaigning for it the way Harden is. No matter what happens it's the best race in years and long may it continue.

Just to add, Simmons thoughts, another who gets a vote

https://theringer.com/bill-simmons-2017-nba-mvp-james-harden-russell-westbrook-kawhi-leonard-4f617e8d5df5

brady23

http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/19159149/carmelo-anthony-better-somewhere-else-phil-jackson-says

Writing on the wall a while anyway but Phil pretty much sealed it now.

I'm not sure what teams he'll waive it for.


Perhaps if (when) the Cavs don't win this year Phil can work out a deal for Love.

Clippers make space somehow if Blake leaves.

Celtics probably won't unless they let Isiah and Crowder walk or move Horford.

Miami maybe Riley can convince him Whiteside and Dragic is enough

Bulls would be my last guess but after that I don't know

Totally unlikely but given cap space, assets, coach and talent an unlikely but fun one could be the T-Wolves.

Deal based around LaVine, Dunn or Rubio, I'd let LaVine go personally but could you convince Melo a core of KAT Wiggins, Rubio, maybe a rookie Tatum and himself could win now

shamrock55

Wow,cavs pacers was close

brady23

Just watching Bucks Raps and the Bucks are playing some great D.

Thon Maker is playing unbelievable D, clearly all the time with KG is paying off.

Raptors still look like they have too many options but the Bucks are playing really well. Maker, Parker, Giannis, Middleton are an exciting prospect moving forward once Parker can recover.

rebelyell99

The jazz giving the clippers plenty of it and gobert went down after 11 seconds

brady23

rebelyell99 wrote: »

The jazz giving the clippers plenty of it and gobert went down after 11 seconds

Iso Joe with the game winner after CP3 had tied it up.
Great start to the playoffs.

Vital Transformation

brady23 wrote: »

Just watching Bucks Raps and the Bucks are playing some great D.

Thon Maker is playing unbelievable D, clearly all the time with KG is paying off.

Raptors still look like they have too many options but the Bucks are playing really well. Maker, Parker, Giannis, Middleton are an exciting prospect moving forward once Parker can recover.

Yer man Monroe was great too, a double double off the bench.

Itssoeasy

I hope Isiah Thomas goes out and has the game of his life tonight in memory of his sister.

gimmick

Why the bloody hell did BT show a repeat of Cavs Pacers rather that Wizards Hawks?

Shame Celtics Bulls isn't on either

qwabercd

gimmick wrote: »

Why the bloody hell did BT show a repeat of Cavs Pacers rather that Wizards Hawks?

Shame Celtics Bulls isn't on either

Pretty crap coverage of the playoffs so far by bt. It's on tnt in the states if you have mobdro.

brady23

I don't think there is a player in the NBA who's regular season game will be as adversely affected by the difference in post season play as Thomas.

He's a terrible defender and physically disadvantaged the 2 areas of the game which become far more vital in the post season.

I think the Celtics are pretty much set up to suffer in the post season.
Horford has never excelled in the post season, if anything he's suffered a bit, the increased pace probably doesn't suit him.

When your two stars and primary offensive weapons aren't suited to the post season it's going to be a struggle.

I know Thomas has been great in 4th quarters this year but when Butler covers him all 4th quarter for consecutive games it's a different story.

I don't think the Bulls are going to beat them but I think Wizards and Raptors are far better designed to challenge the Cavs.

Obviously blip from Raptors but I'd still have confidence in them getting through.

Wizards have been my dark horse for months now, I think they're the biggest threat to the Cavs provided their starters stay healthy.

ButtersSuki

Boston losing this game baring a miracle last minute.

qwabercd

Beast of a second half for butler.

ButtersSuki

Bad loss for Boston. They could be in trouble here.

LuckyLloyd

The Bulls are putting three experienced, big game players on the floor to start and have excellent physicality on D. They're a bad match up. That said, they're also a team that lost 41 games this year and have spacing and rotation problems

ButtersSuki

Listened to the open floor podcast on Friday or maybe it was Saturday when i was still in the states. They said the likely biggest upset would be Bulls over Boston and gave a lot of reasons for it (incl. the fact the pts differential between the teams was very close) - but they did say they couldn't really see it happening. Wouldn't rule it out now.....

brady23

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

The Bulls are putting three experienced, big game players on the floor to start and have excellent physicality on D. They're a bad match up. That said, they're also a team that lost 41 games this year and have spacing and rotation problems

I think their success could come down to Mirotic as the difference maker.
You know what Butler, Rondo and Wade will give you to a level of certainty

However Pre All Star Mirotic was shooting 29% from 3, 50% TS and just one point over break even on his offensive/defensive rating plus just 9 points a game.

Post all star break 42% on 3s, 62% TS, 11 point positive differential and 14 points a game.

He only played 19 minutes and was 0/5 from 3 but if he can space the floor, Celtics are in trouble

NufcNavan

Nate McMillan last night:

1.) How many bench lineups did he play?

2.) Played a bench lineup with zero minutes literally all season together in a critical second quarter juncture, it got trounced.

3.) Defended Kevin Love with Lance and CJ Miles for multiple plays in a row.

4.) Had no idea how to solve a simple hard double on his best player so he just took him out of the offense completely for like a 6 minute stretch in the 4th.

5.) Still doesn't have suit pants that fit.

ButtersSuki

Boston in big trouble again (sigh). If they lose this game it's over.

brady23

Unfortunately Boston just aren't set up to succeed in scenarios where individual match ups are so important.

The only fear I'd have is that Boston fans are blinded by their short term failings and not see the huge potential that the team has under Stevens/Ainge.


They've essentially built a No1 seed all be it in the East from mainly picks, great coaching and bargain contracts. They have loads of assets and cap space.


If I was in Stevens/Ainge's position I would let Thomas walk because someone will throw crazy money at him, trade Horford and gauge the market for Crowder. Quality wings are hard to come by in the NBA but I'd be thinking 15-18m range is the max for him.


Even without Crowder, they have lots on cheap contracts in Smart, Bradley, Brown, Johnson, Olynyk plus Ball/Fultz and whatever they get next year, Michael Porter Jr even if the Nets are awful again.
I'd rather be a Boston fan losing in the first round this year than a Bulls fan making it to round 2.

LuckyLloyd

I think most of that is true, but this will be terribly disappointing for Celts fans all the same. The Bulls have playoff time stars, the Celts don't. And, if the Bulls finish the job now, they'll have nothing to fear in the next round. A run is on.

2smiggy

never really liked the Horford deal, he's a great player, but I never thought he is worth the money he's getting. Paul George or Jimmy Butler would have been so much better.

LuckyLloyd

Bottom line (which has been ruthlessly exposed in the first two games) is that you can't have your best player be 5'9" and a defensive liability in playoff basketball. The Bulls have gone after him, just like the Cavs went after Steph Curry in last year's finals and danced all over him. An interested Rondo is a particularly bad match up for IT, as it's a physicality mismatch that the smaller player can't cope with.

As last season demonstrated in stark terms, the regular season ain't ****.

K.O.Kiki

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

As last season demonstrated in stark terms, the regular season ain't ****.

I don't understand - the only upset was the Spurs losing to OKC in the 2nd round.

Finals upset was because Curry didn't return to 100%.

LuckyLloyd

K.O.Kiki wrote: »

I don't understand - the only upset was the Spurs losing to OKC in the 2nd round.

Finals upset was because Curry didn't return to 100%.

oh yeah, Curry wasn't 100%. That old chestnut.

shamrock55

Watched raptors-bucks last night,raps got the win but still not convincing, lowry and derozan in particular havent got going yet,antetakoulumpo or whatever his bloody name is wasnt half as effective as the first game,the bucks have suprised me though and have some good players in middleton and monroe,this will be alot closer then i first thought and i couldnt call it tbh

K.O.Kiki

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

oh yeah, Curry wasn't 100%. That old chestnut.

All of Steph's numbers were way down from the regular season, and he'd missed half of the Playoffs.
I think it's fair to assess that he wasn't 100%.

NufcNavan

Playoff Rondo is some beast.

LuckyLloyd

K.O.Kiki wrote: »

All of Steph's numbers were way down from the regular season, and he'd missed half of the Playoffs.
I think it's fair to assess that he wasn't 100%.

Or he was exploited as a defensive weakness time and again in the finals and the stress of fighting through switches and having to defend way more than he's used to in the regular season severely affected his offensive output. Was Isiah Thomas injured last night too?

The playoffs is big boys basketball.

ButtersSuki

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

oh yeah, Curry wasn't 100%. That old chestnut.

Ah come on now, surely you agree he was injured?

And don't forget Draymond was suspended for Game 5.

K.O.Kiki

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Or he was exploited as a defensive weakness time and again in the finals and the stress of fighting through switches and having to defend way more than he's used to in the regular season severely affected his offensive output. Was Isiah Thomas injured last night too?

The playoffs is big boys basketball.

IT's younger sister died in a car crash, man.

ButtersSuki

Horford was shocking last night. Shocking.

I said a few weeks ago Bill Simmons said the Celtics might cash in on Thomas this summer. The problem with doing that is they lose a huge chunk of offense in doing so. If they do trade/offload him, they've no standout offensive player/superstar. The Horford acquisition though it looked (relatively) ok at the time seems poor now. And then they become a building team again when they should really be adding to and boosting the current rotation. There's no guarantee they get the 1 pick either. I've stayed true to the Ainge process thus far but sitting on their hands throughout multiple trade windows and drafts whilst stockpiling assets has to yield results at some stage and it doesn't look great right now TBH. Maybe there's more in play that we don't know (Butler in summer? PG? I don't see either on their own being a major change btw and if you're Butler right now do you even want to go to Boston?)? I'll be honest, this season will be a huge disappointment (again) if, as is likely, they go out in the first round.

qwabercd

NufcNavan wrote: »

Playoff Rondo is some beast.

In one sense it's good that he's rising to the occasion but you'd have to wonder what the feck he was at for the rest of the season.

K.O.Kiki

K.O.Kiki wrote: »

IT's younger sister died in a car crash, man.

This plus he actually played well in game 1

For Forks Sake

brady23

K.O.Kiki wrote: »

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Or he was exploited as a defensive weakness time and again in the finals and the stress of fighting through switches and having to defend way more than he's used to in the regular season severely affected his offensive output. Was Isiah Thomas injured last night too?

The playoffs is big boys basketball.

IT's younger sister died in a car crash, man.

Its terrible his sister died but all of his issues in terms of the playoffs were highlighted prior to it happening.

There is nothing about Horford or Thomas's play that is surprising thus far. I thought they'd find it tough but figured they would overcome the Bulls but their big 2 are worse than I thought.

As far as the Curry thing goes, I don't think he was 100% but I also don't think his game translates to being as remotely as effective in the post season as the regular season.

Players who don't have the physicality and/or defensive chops are always the ones to suffer in the post season and that's simply a flaw in Thomas and Curry.

NufcNavan

I'm enjoying watching that arrogant tool Bill Simmons choke on some crow.

Dude is nothing more than a homer fan who got a lucky break.

LuckyLloyd

K.O.Kiki wrote: »

IT's younger sister died in a car crash, man.

Aron Old-fashioned Overlord wrote: »

This plus he actually played well in game 1

Well, brady called what would happen to him before the series began.

There's also this:



He's an elite scorer, and to be 5'9" and dropping 30+ a night in the NBA is great. But the playoffs brutally expose weaknesses. The likes of IT and Curry are massively exploitable. Luckily for the Warriors, adding Durant probably will cover his weakness up enough to get over the line.

LuckyLloyd

ButtersSuki wrote: »

Ah come on now, surely you agree he was injured?

And don't forget Draymond was suspended for Game 5.

Was he injured in the 2015 finals too were he also performed subpar relative to his regular season exploits? Curry is the greatest jump shooter of all time and what he achieved in the previous two regular seasons was unreal. But against elite competition that can work a detailed game plan the fact that he's relatively undersized and weak defensively is something that the opposition will target. And when that gets targeted aggressively his offense will suffer - largely because he's very determined and fights against it as hard as he can.

I mean, IT dropped 22 last night, and Curry was still dropping buckets here and there during the finals last year. It's relative shadings, but if you can turn your opponent's talisman from star to above average guy you're probably going to win. The margins are tight at this level, very tight.

I also don't agree IT played well during game one, because he was abused defensively. That's the other side of all this, getting stops is magnified an awful lot more in a seven game series.

ButtersSuki

And people say I hate LeBron....

Gregk961

Delighted to see Charles Barkley tearing the First Take crew apart, "talentless" is the perfect description for that lot. I understand its hard to fill an hour long show every day but sweet jesus at least keep it somewhat relevent. "Did presenter on other tv show say the wrong thing" how is that even a debate on a sports show.

Undisputed and First Take are abominations that should be destroyed yet recieve Millions of views.

brady23

ButtersSuki wrote: »

And people say I hate LeBron....

Do you honestly think the opinions people have given on Thomas/Curry in relation to their post season performances is the same as your previous opinions on LBJ?

ButtersSuki

ButtersSuki wrote: »

And people say I hate LeBron....

You do very irrationally the points about Isiah and Steph have basis at least weather you agree or not

LuckyLloyd

ButtersSuki wrote: »

And people say I hate LeBron....

I'll take it you have nothing to rebut Curry / IT2 being defensive liabilities and suffering a relative dropoff in playoff play when compared to their regular season impact as a result.

ButtersSuki

It's late and I'm very tired (just back from the states again and suffering) but to even put Curry and Thomas in the same sentence is grossly unfair to Curry. And I'm a Boston fan!

Top line: Curry was injured last year. You can't dispute that surely? And I'll say it again since it was ignored last time - Draymond out of game 5 last year. If he plays that game I suspect it would have been a 4-1 routing. But we'll never know.

Previous year's finals was his first. Not unusual for a player to not have a great first finals. LeBron has had a few poor finals btw but let's ignore that because it doesn't suit the argument.......

Going to try and sleep now. Night.

LuckyLloyd

If the warriors had won 4 - 1 it wouldn't have changed the fact that Curry was relatively poor (by the standards he has created through his own immense regular season play). You are mixing up the results of the 2015 / 2016 series overall with specific analysis of how small, defensively lessor players suffer more in the playoffs than in the regular season due to greater game planning and intensity of effort. This is a tactical conversation, I have no idea what LeBron's career or Draymond being suspended for kicking people has to do with it.

IT and Curry are two examples of the same phenomenon - I'm obviously not suggesting IT is as good as Curry.

brady23

ButtersSuki wrote: »

It's late and I'm very tired (just back from the states again and suffering) but to even put Curry and Thomas in the same sentence is grossly unfair to Curry. And I'm a Boston fan!

Top line: Curry was injured last year. You can't dispute that surely? And I'll say it again since it was ignored last time - Draymond out of game 5 last year. If he plays that game I suspect it would have been a 4-1 routing. But we'll never know.

Previous year's finals was his first. Not unusual for a player to not have a great first finals. LeBron has had a few poor finals btw but let's ignore that because it doesn't suit the argument.......

Going to try and sleep now. Night.

The Draymond part was ignored because it's irrelevant. The point was players such as Curry and IT suffer in the post season because their defense and physicality are more exposed. It's not a comparison, nobody is saying IT is better or Curry is better etc, it's simply demonstrating similar weaknesses ie defense and physicality, it's just Curry is a perfect example of someone with a similar role in their team and has a large playoff sample size. 


The LBJ part is again irrelevant too because we're not talking about him so whatever he's done or not done in finals is trivial. Even though he's not even part of this argument comparing his post season performances to IT or Curry is laughable, he's been to 6 consecutive finals as the best player, IT can't even get the Celtics to conference finals and Curry hasn't been the best player on his team in a finals yet.


The point was Thomas like Curry and like any player who is physically smaller and a poor defender has their weaknesses highlighted in the playoffs and their skills aren't as effective.
Curry irrespective of injury has never performed in the post season on a consistent basis the way he has in the regular season. This is the same for IT and the reasons are not deaths in family, injury etc it's simply their weaknesses are exposed more.

ButtersSuki

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

I'll take it you have nothing to rebut Curry / IT2 being defensive liabilities and suffering a relative dropoff in playoff play when compared to their regular season impact as a result.

I didn't see the above last night but seriously? If I don't reply instantly to your comment late at night you think you've silenced me with the brilliance of your rebuttal? That's some ego you have.