Bought non breeder.

thetangler

Hi bought Heifer in maiden ring at a Monaghan day sale. Turns out she a non breeder. Rang mart they won't get involved gave me number for owner. Rang him got told "you bought her you have her keep her". Is it worth getting solicitor or just boycott mart.

Dunedin

thetangler wrote: »

Hi bought Heifer in maiden ring at a Monaghan day sale. Turns out she a non breeder. Rang mart they won't get involved gave me number for owner. Rang him got told "you bought her you have her keep her". Is it worth getting solicitor or just boycott mart.

Was she announced as a breeding heifer ?

If not, then sold as seen with little come back I'd say.

thetangler

Don't think so. Think all heifers sold in maiden ring re sold as breeders unless announced outherwise.

BENDYBINN

If not suitable for breeding it should have been announced

J.O. Farmer

thetangler wrote: »

Don't think so. Think all heifers sold in maiden ring re sold as breeders unless announced outherwise.

Heifers in the maiden ring have never been in calf unless otherwise announced. I'm not sure there's any guaruntee she'll breed.
Unless you have some way of proving that the previous owner had a way of knowing she was unsuitable for breeding you've no comeback. It's bad luck, fatten her and move on.

tanko

Is she a Freemarten or has she a problem or infection?
Did you get her scanned or checked out?

orm0nd

J.O. Farmer wrote: »

Heifers in the maiden ring have never been in calf unless otherwise announced. I'm not sure there's any guaruntee she'll breed.
Unless you have some way of proving that the previous owner had a way of knowing she was unsuitable for breeding you've no comeback. It's bad luck, fatten her and move on.

incorrect

thetangler

Ya by chance i was scanning and she ran up chute so said just look at her to make sure she ok. Normally i would get to hung up about it but just the arrogance of the seller has annoyed me.

whelan2

Going the legal route would be expensive and take years.

Lady Haywire

Maiden heifers are sold as maiden (so not incalf) and suitable for breeding unless announced otherwise.
I'd push harder with the manager tbh, he's the one that should be putting the foot down on the seller. Was it a dealer or the breeder that sold her?

Personally I'd get a headed letter sent to him from the mart, or a solicitor friend if you have one. Just outlining where he's in the wrong and the reparations you're looking for.

Water John

Unless there is a reason, that would be reasonably known to the seller, I don't see a case.

tanko

Water John wrote: »

Unless there is a reason, that would be reasonably known to the seller, I don't see a case.

If she's a Freemarten, the seller would have known.

whelan2

tanko wrote: »

If she's a Freemarten, the seller would have known.

Not necessarily if he wasn't the breeder

Water John

The OP hasn't given us much info, except he/she's angry and someone's gotta pay.

Who2

Is it really worth the hassle, how much above beef value was she? If anything, beef her up or just flog her on, would you get a token 50 or 100 back and is it a fight worth taking, just because of his arrogance.

Sheep breeder

This is the mart managers job to follow up,all heifers sold as maiden.get the mart to replay the sale tape and will clear up quickly what was said on the day.
A little pressure on the mart manager on a sale day in the office will work wonders, a neighbour bought 5 heifers from the one man and 3 turned up in calf and the manager told him bad luck and he went into the office on sale day and asked the girls to look up the name of the seller of the heifers on the computer and started to tell the story of the heifers to all in the office and how he hoped the manager would sort out the problem and goodmans buyer was there and said they returned all incalf heifers and he was entitled to return the heifers, neighbour asked manager was this the case and he had to say yes to save face in the office and heifers returned with all costs paid by the seller when the manger was backed into a corner.
Rule in local mart,the seller is the same as the buyer or no mart golden rule both pay commission

Water John

That's different. If you sell maiden heifers, you are guaranteeing them as not in calf. If you are wrong you pay, and pay dearly.
If you're not sure you say, no guarantee. Even if it's a lower price, at least you go home with, peace of mind.

blue5000

Is there a sign up at the mart that all free martin heifers have to be declared?

Water John

Before, in Cork Marts, the seller said and the auctioneer then repeated, 'guaranteed not in calf'. That changed some years ago. It is now the default position that the female animal is not in calf, unless the seller says otherwise.

Do different marts, use different lines.

Lady Haywire

From what I remember in Mohill, there's a sign stating that all heifers are sold as maidens. But twin to bull/unsuitable for breeding would be announced by auctioneer and written up on dockets for the buyer, same as a bullock being riggish etc.

Water John

Agreed Haywire, it would be disingeous to sell such an animal without declaring. Your problem is proving the seller knew or should have known.

Lady Haywire

Water John wrote: »

Agreed Haywire, it would be disingeous to sell such an animal without declaring. Your problem is proving the seller knew or should have known.

Sure you can check if a twin is registered to them on ICBF. If it's the breeder that's selling then his argument falls flat. If it's a second owner, check back to the mart where the heifer was purchased, see if the breeder announced it there.

If it's a genetic abnormality and the breeder/seller couldn't have known, I'd leave it at that and accept the hit. But the way thetangler describes him, I'd say he sold her knowing full well, took a chance on her going for beef and is now trying to bully his way out of it.

CHOPS01

In SMB mart last Saturday a heifer went through and the auctioneer was quite forceful announcing that the heifer was not for breeding.
On that basis it seemed that all were suitable breeding unless declared otherwise.

whelan2

Lady Haywire wrote: »

Sure you can check if a twin is registered to them on ICBF. If it's the breeder that's selling then his argument falls flat. If it's a second owner, check back to the mart where the heifer was purchased, see if the breeder announced it there.

If it's a genetic abnormality and the breeder/seller couldn't have known, I'd leave it at that and accept the hit. But the way thetangler describes him, I'd say he sold her knowing full well, took a chance on her going for beef and is now trying to bully his way out of it.

But if it was a twin and the other one was born dead it mightnt have been registered as a twin. Also if the cow was carrying twins and lost one of them during pregnancy the farmer mightnt even have known she was a twin. Happened here a few years ago when we scanned our heifers

J.O. Farmer

orm0nd wrote: »

incorrect

Why? Explain please.
Do you ensure all heifers you sell are fertile and suitable for breeding even if you have no reason to believe otherwise.

J.O. Farmer

Lady Haywire wrote: »

If it's a genetic abnormality and the breeder/seller couldn't have known, I'd leave it at that and accept the hit. But the way thetangler describes him, I'd say he sold her knowing full well, took a chance on her going for beef and is now trying to bully his way out of it.

I wouldn't necessarily agree that the seller knew. If I got a phonecall and from someone saying that the heifer I sold couldn't be bred and I had no reason to expect that when I was selling my response would be bad luck but you bought her you deal with it.
I could be wrong but the OP may have been looking for the seller to take her back on similar terms to if she proved in calf with compensation for keeping her etc.
We would need more detail about why she was unsuitable. If she's a twin to a bull and the seller would have known fair enough but other than that I don't know in what situation the seller could reasonably have been expected to know she was unsuitable for breeding.

thetangler

Hi
Just to clear a few things up
She is a freemartin
Mart i bought her in checked records not declared.
I just wanted her going back as she was going with heifers for the bull and the heifers I have for fattening are all charlois and she wont fit in and annoy me every day i look at her didnt want compensation.
i buy 30 to 40 heifers every year to sell in calf if the rules have changed in the mart then I stop because i cant give over the beef price for heifers that are unknown.
so its not the one heifer its the whole system is in question.

Sheep breeder

thetangler wrote: »

Hi
Just to clear a few things up
She is a freemartin
Mart i bought her in checked records not declared.
I just wanted her going back as she was going with heifers for the bull and the heifers I have for fattening are all charlois and she wont fit in and annoy me every day i look at her didnt want compensation.
i buy 30 to 40 heifers every year to sell in calf if the rules have changed in the mart then I stop because i cant give over the beef price for heifers that are unknown.
so its not the one heifer its the whole system is in question.

Well you are entitled as the buyer to have purchased a correct animal and if she is not fit for purpose then the seller was wrong to sell as correct and your system is what you do fair play. Any fella that sells wrong will stand up like a man and take his hit, has happened us in the past with heifers turning up incalf after the mart,

whelan2

Did the seller sell her knowing she was a freemartin?

whelan2

whelan2 wrote: »

Did the seller sell her knowing she was a freemartin?

If it was me I would just bring her back to the mart and sell her on as a non breeder

Irish Beef

thetangler wrote: »

Hi
Just to clear a few things up
She is a freemartin
Mart i bought her in checked records not declared.
I just wanted her going back as she was going with heifers for the bull and the heifers I have for fattening are all charlois and she wont fit in and annoy me every day i look at her didnt want compensation.
i buy 30 to 40 heifers every year to sell in calf if the rules have changed in the mart then I stop because i cant give over the beef price for heifers that are unknown.
so its not the one heifer its the whole system is in question.

I'm no expert here but surely with a freemartin heifer, that would've had to be declared, cant see how the seller has a leg to stand on here. Mart should also be responsible to put pressure on seller to take back heifer.

White Clover

Was the seller the breeder? It might make it a bit more clear cut although you still have the chance that she was born a single but her twin brother was lost as an embryo.

Sami23

tanko wrote: »

Water John wrote: »

Unless there is a reason, that would be reasonably known to the seller, I don't see a case.

If she's a Freemarten, the seller would have known.

What's a Freemarten

Gravelly

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freemartin

K.G.

must confess as seller of beef heifer calves out the dairy herd it has never crossed my mind to note freemartins out of beef bulls.my logic is they are worth the money as beef animals anyway. would always declare a fr freemartin

Bellview

thetangler wrote:

Hi Just to clear a few things up She is a freemartin Mart i bought her in checked records not declared. I just wanted her going back as she was going with heifers for the bull and the heifers I have for fattening are all charlois and she wont fit in and annoy me every day i look at her didnt want compensation. i buy 30 to 40 heifers every year to sell in calf if the rules have changed in the mart then I stop because i cant give over the beef price for heifers that are unknown. so its not the one heifer its the whole system is in question.

If the price you paid is on a par with beef I would just sell her at mart and move on. If you cost the time you have spent doing the checks at 8 euro an hour you may be spending a lot more than you think.
The only sales that I'm aware of that guarantee breeding are special sales and pedigree sales

patsy_mccabe

Ah this all goes back to the mart. They should have clear defined rules, up on a board for all to see.
I've regularly heard heifers being announced as 'not fit for breeding'.

Water John

That would be the seller being fair and clear, as they should be, when they know. It doesn't mean the contra for everyone elses female animals.

Lady Haywire

The chances of a cow slipping a twin bull or it being born dead/sold unregistered are slimmer than the twin bull being registered to her so that's why I'd check.
It's the principal of doing it that's annoying. If this chap is the breeder and if he gets away with it, he'll do it another time.
The buyer pays commission on his animals, same as the seller, he has the right to redress if he's not happy with the goods he purchased. So that's why i'd be going back to him in the office.

_Brian

Sheep breeder wrote: »

This is the mart managers job to follow up,all heifers sold as maiden.get the mart to replay the sale tape and will clear up quickly what was said on the day.
A little pressure on the mart manager on a sale day in the office will work wonders, a neighbour bought 5 heifers from the one man and 3 turned up in calf and the manager told him bad luck and he went into the office on sale day and asked the girls to look up the name of the seller of the heifers on the computer and started to tell the story of the heifers to all in the office and how he hoped the manager would sort out the problem and goodmans buyer was there and said they returned all incalf heifers and he was entitled to return the heifers, neighbour asked manager was this the case and he had to say yes to save face in the office and heifers returned with all costs paid by the seller when the manger was backed into a corner.
Rule in local mart,the seller is the same as the buyer or no mart golden rule both pay commission

We had a heifer turn up in calf and couldn't make any headway with the mart manager. Had to get vet and heifer lost the calf. Got half the vet fees paid was best I could muster from seller through mart. He was much bigger farmer selling lots of stock through mart and we really got the impression they didn't want to upset him. No way were they asking him to take her back.
TBH we took the hit on it because the mart is on our doorstep and I couldn't be bothered falling out with them and going elsewhere.

Water John

All I can say is, the rules in Cork Marts on maiden heifers turning up incalf is heavily discouraged. Can't remember the penalties but it is fully taking the animal back and fees per day for feed, which are not low.
I have heard of a buyer, good distance away, coming back looking for compo on a heifer that calved. First owner offered to travel and see the cow and calf. He heard no more.

J.O. Farmer

Water John wrote: »

I have heard of a buyer, good distance away, coming back looking for compo on a heifer that calved. First owner offered to travel and see the cow and calf. He heard no more.

Funnily enough I think everyone has heard of similar cases.
1. The buyer is always a long way away.
2. They didn't notice the heifer until she was on the point of calving.
3. She often calves a dead calf
4. The buyer finishes up happy enough to keep the heifer if they get a couple of hundred for their troubles.

I know there are genuine cases of heifers proving in calf too. I saw a neighbour bought one and she was nearly ready to calve and the previous owner wasn't able to come for a day or so. She ended up with a c section and dead calf she was a butty blue being heavily fed and a huge bull calf.
In that case the previous owner took both back but at least he knew nobody was trying to pull a fast one as appears to be the case in John's example.

J.O. Farmer

White Clover wrote: »

Was the seller the breeder? It might make it a bit more clear cut although you still have the chance that she was born a single but her twin brother was lost as an embryo.

Also is there any other way she could be underdeveloped? Perhaps unlikely and bad luck but it surely happens on occasion.

farawaygrass

I sold a 2 year old heifer this time last year on a Tuesday. Mart rang me on Thursday saying she wasn't fit for breeding and gave me number of farmer that bought her. I rang him, sound fella to be fair. Now I had let this heifer out to the bull the year previous and when we were scanning she was empty. I left her in the shed for the winter and she done mighty, so I said I'd try the mart. Anyhow I assumed that 1) she probably could/would go on calf at second asking and I didn't have to announce anything-it never crossed my mind and 2) she would have been bought for killing as she was in such condition.
I asked the mart manager who liability lay with and he said with me-all heifers sold fit for breeding. He said to seek legal advice but he seen cases where heifers came back after months and seller had to pay up.
As a friend said-it's a bit harsh as the fault can be seen, maybe not in my case there as she didn't go in calf the first time, but say a lad selling yearlings. If it was a fault that could be seen with the eye like being lame then fair enough. But if you were buying you need to get what you pay for I suppose-need buyer confidence

Robson99

Impossible to prove if seller knew or not

6480

thetangler wrote: »

Hi bought Heifer in maiden ring at a Monaghan day sale. Turns out she a non breeder. Rang mart they won't get involved gave me number for owner. Rang him got told "you bought her you have her keep her". Is it worth getting solicitor or just boycott mart.

How could the owner say she was going to breed for u had 30 heifers here 25 of them went in calf out of 30 and they were running all summer with the bull , I think u have no case

patsy_mccabe

6480 wrote: »

How could the owner say she was going to breed for u had 30 heifers here 25 of them went in calf out of 30 and they were running all summer with the bull , I think u have no case

Freemartin??

J.O. Farmer

patsy_mccabe wrote: »

Freemartin??

I think 6480 missed the post where the OP confirmed she is a freemartin.

That's how he could say she wouldn't breed.

However not being able say she wouldn't breed isn't the same thing as saying that she would breed.

Lady Haywire

J.O. Farmer wrote: »

I think 6480 missed the post where the OP confirmed she is a freemartin.

That's how he could say she wouldn't breed.

However not being able say she wouldn't breed isn't the same thing as saying that she would breed.

True, however by selling a heifer through a maiden ring it's heavily implied (with no announcements or obvious abnormalities) that she's suitable for breeding.

Base price

Lady Haywire wrote: »

True, however by selling a heifer through a maiden ring it's heavily implied (with no announcements or obvious abnormalities) that she's suitable for breeding.

Agree. If the seller is not the breeder then he/she cannot give any guarantees regarding her breeding potential, as they do not know her provenance. Therefore in those circumstances the seller should announce that she is not guaranteed for breeding or sell the heifer through the beef ring or take the hit.

J.O. Farmer

Lady Haywire wrote: »

True, however by selling a heifer through a maiden ring it's heavily implied (with no announcements or obvious abnormalities) that she's suitable for breeding.

You have a point to a certain extent however being suitable for breeding is still not a guarantee she will breed.
Obviously the heifer that's a freemartin isn't suitable but what about any heifer going through the ring.
I've a chx yearling heifer to sell, I'd say she'll finish up going for beef but I have no reason to think she's unsuitable for breeding if someone bought her with that in mind. Should I be making an announcement that I'm not guaranteeing her for breeding or risk someone coming back in 12 months saying she didn't go in calf.