Heifers - Ai bull advice please

Farmer Dan

I've a bunch of heifers that I intend using Ai on this year. There daughters of my stock bull.
I want to breed my own replacements rather that buying in. I'm in the bdgp. There all red 5 star 3/4 herefords. There 360 kg @ 13 months old.
Dovea Ai is the company I'd be using. Hopefully more of you knowledgeable people can advise me on my bull choice. I don't mind what breed just what ever you would consider best.
Thanks in advance.

Bellview

What breed are you looking to use ie limo angus etc

Farmer Dan

Thanks Bellview, I don't mind what breed.
Open to all suggestions / advice.
Obviously I have a hereford stock bull so I'd like to cross them with something else that would give me a nice calf.

diarmuidb24

AA bull maybe for the first time heifers? Generally easy calved with an AA bull

jaded_runner

dont calve at two , they never develop properly and are low in milk, works with crossbred dairy stock , not sucklers

Bellview

jaded_runner wrote:

dont calve at two , they never develop properly and are low in milk, works with crossbred dairy stock , not sucklers

Agree with that comment. I calved 3 at 2 this year and never again. They are a pain in the ass and are too small..30 months is best IMO.
On breeds depends on your system. If looking to finish then producer groups give you an option for both he and aa.
If selling as weanlings then maybe continental
If you are working off farm then aa and he may make more sense as easier calved.
On angus dovea probably have the better bulls in ai. I would stay away from bunlahy John g for heifers..if you have mature cows he is worth a look but they are big...you will meet lads that will tell you they are easily calved but these lads are selling bulls so may not be the full truth. I would try luigi in dovea on a few . I used cahermee gino on a heifer last year came out no bother as i found him in field but i would rate him a plain bull this year. Some of the easy calved bulls in ai are breeding pure rubbish so don't go too far into easy calving. I can't comment on other breeds in dovea.

Parishlad

Going slightly off topic so apologies to OP but I have the same issue/question about calving at 2 yrs. I don't like the idea of calving at 24 mths and 30 mths is probably the better option. However, going with 30 mths throws the whole calving period wide open and I like to try and calve between Feb and April which is a long enough calving period. So what ends up happening is that heifers are nearly 36 months before they calve here. They are, as you would expect, quite strong at this stage so no issues with stunted growth, lack of milk etc.
I would like to calve them down a few months earlier but as per above it would be a pain in the ass basically.

Mooooo

What I've noticed particularly in a group now, cows that calve at 2 will keep growing and be as big as those that calved later but will have an extra calf born. The cost of carrying heifers later is big. I know I'm dairy but I'd imagine if you go to any herd calving all at 2 the mature cows will be the same as those calving at 30 months. Something I'm trying to change here. For the op if you want replacement perhaps an aa or limo for heifers would give a good cross for a mother with the hereford? Perhaps it depends on whether you finish stock or sell weanling?

FeelTheBern

Op you should go ahead and calve them at 2yo. In my experience, by the time they are 4 or 5 years old they'll be exactly the same size as those that calved at 36 months but you'll have an extra calf. If you can at all try to give them extra feeding during next winter and for few weeks after they calve - like a dairy heifer will help them to come back into heat and go in calf faster next year. If you don't mind them the first year they'll still grow in the end but may slip back in calving date.

As regards Dovea bulls. you could use the limousin EBY - very easy calved, will give good quality Bulls or heifers but not hugely positive on milk. If you would like to try for milky replacements out of them then the Saler Ulsan has very low calving difficulty, high milk but your bulls will be plainer.

Bellview

FeelTheBern wrote:

As regards Dovea bulls. you could use the limousin EBY - very easy calved, will give good quality Bulls or heifers but not hugely positive on milk. If you would like to try for milky replacements out of them then the Saler Ulsan has very low calving difficulty, high milk but your bulls will be plainer.

How is the temperament of the Salers as they are getting mixed feedback. I have seen complete nutters in mart and others that are OK..but the nutters were dangerous

Farmer Dan

As regards Dovea bulls. you could use the limousin EBY - very easy calved, will give good quality Bulls or heifers but not hugely positive on milk. If you would like to try for milky replacements out of them then the Saler Ulsan has very low calving difficulty, high milk but your bulls will be plainer.[/quote]

That's what the recommend now, calving at 2 yr old so that's what I'm aiming for. I can keep them separate next winter & feed them as you say.

In relation to bull choice, I'm not really after heifers to keep out of these yet as i will have some heifers coming on every year from the cows & hereford stock bull. How plain would a saler bull be out of 3/4 herefords? In the journal last week ulsan was 2nd materniall bull in top 10 & they said his +22kg on carcase. He'd be easier calve than EBY?

Farmer Dan

For the op if you want replacement perhaps an aa or limo for heifers would give a good cross for a mother with the hereford? Perhaps it depends on whether you finish stock or sell weanling?[/quote]

I don't finish stock yet. Normally sell some at this time of year (13-14 months ) and rest in September. Just want to improve my type of stock.

TITANIUM.

Farmer Dan wrote: »

For the op if you want replacement perhaps an aa or limo for heifers would give a good cross for a mother with the hereford? Perhaps it depends on whether you finish stock or sell weanling?
I don't finish stock yet. Normally sell some at this time of year (13-14 months ) and rest in September. Just want to improve my type of stock.

Calve away grand at 2years. Look after um afterwards and your away in a hack.
As far as a bull for heifers I use lm bull ZAG. Grand handy hardy calf's and will develop into good weanlings . I haven't had a problem with him yet. I'd stay well clear of those screws of Angus's but that's my personal preference.

Who2

I calve down anything here from 22 months, they need your best grass after calving but do still grow. Like already stated by the time they are 5 they are the same as any other. Plenty of milk but do look raggy for their first year. I'd go limo definitely if on Hereford. You'll get something with a bit of potential. Zag is a good option, eby is easy calving but I don't like his calves.

tanko

TITANIUM. wrote: »

Calve away grand at 2years. Look after um afterwards and your away in a hack.
As far as a bull for heifers I use lm bull ZAG. Grand handy hardy calf's and will develop into good weanlings . I haven't had a problem with him yet. I'd stay well clear of those screws of Angus's but that's my personal preference.

That's a bit of a sweeping statement about AA bulls.
Used KDU on the heifers here for a few years, very easy calved and handy little lads when born but plenty of them killed out R+'s and even some U- at good weights.
Have a year old KYA bullock off A first calver here and he doesn't look much different from his ZAG comrades only he's white instead of red.
ZAG isn't suitable for some heifers imo.

Farmer Dan

Who2 wrote: »

I'd go limo definitely if on Hereford. You'll get something with a bit of potential. Zag is a good option, eby is easy calving but I don't like his calves.

Thanks Who2, do you mind me asking you why you don't like EBY's calves? As I said, I'll be using dovea ai, any other recommendations of easy calving bulls the have? Thanks again.

50HX

i would echo the above posts about ZAG - very happy with him so far - nice square calves and easy calving

stick Glencardon ali into a few and you'd have a nice calf as well and should make a nice replacement with high stars if that's what you were after

charolais0153

Calved two at 24 months this year to a stock Angus bull. The difference in calves us remarkable. Similar type of heifers yet one is like a black charolais and the others like a black jersey. Also they need to b minded to be able to go back incalf again

Who2

Farmer Dan wrote: »

Thanks Who2, do you mind me asking you why you don't like EBY's calves? As I said, I'll be using dovea ai, any other recommendations of easy calving bulls the have? Thanks again.

I just didn't like them is the best way I could describe it. Plain ordinary narrowish sorts, nearly like red angus. But then again it may have just been a bad hit with the heifers I had and the ones I seen. You need a bit of a shape injection with the Hereford and a cross with zag, you should have good stars and a nice sort of replacement if you get heifers.

The Real Elmer Fudd

Farmer Dan wrote: »

Thanks Who2, do you mind me asking you why you don't like EBY's calves? As I said, I'll be using dovea ai, any other recommendations of easy calving bulls the have? Thanks again.

Take a look LM2014. I have calves from LM2014 this year and EBY calves last year. The LM2014 are just as easy calved and have alot more shape to them.

Lady Haywire

I've seen two nice EBY calves (albeit good heifers they were off- blue & limo) and one ratty one. So I'm withholding judgement on him for now.
Fella mentioned to me earlier that he was using ZXT (Tomschoice Iceberg) on his heifers this year, surprised me as I've seen very nice calves off him. Checked him there now and his calving diff is only 3.3% at 83% rel. Had lovely heifers calves off Towthorpe Dubai last year but he's Bova.

I think calving age can depend on the animal, have a blonde x here who calved at 29 months and she's the size of a house, but have a chx calving at 25months who's the same height as her :pac: If you treat them right and feed them right as weanlings and yearlings they should have no issues.

We aim for 24 months, always under 30m.

Sheep breeder

Used gamin from bova the last 4 years on Liam heifers a dream and super calf after 2 weeks when they start to motor, you can buy straws and get them delivered to your ai mans tank.

Farmer Dan

[quote="Sheep breeder;you can buy straws and get them delivered to your ai mans tank.[/quote]

I did not know that, thanks. So if I wasn't to limit myself to dovea, what other bulls in the other companies would be a good choice?

patsy_mccabe

I was at a mixed breed pedigree bull sale recently. God the difference between the AA and the Lim bulls was unbelievable. The lims must have been twice the weight for the same age. The AA bulls seemed to have been bred solely for ease of calving with must at around 2%. Dairy guys buying them, I suppose.

White Clover

patsy_mccabe wrote: »

I was at a mixed breed pedigree bull sale recently. God the difference between the AA and the Lim bulls was unbelievable. The lims must have been twice the weight for the same age. The AA bulls seemed to have been bred solely for ease of calving with must at around 2%. Dairy guys buying them, I suppose.

An awful lot of Aaxfr cattle are almost as bad as jerseys these days. Small narrow cattle with terrible growth rates. This stems from easy calving Angus used on friesian heifers.
Imo a good friesian bull calf is more valuable than your average aa calf these days.

cacs

Farmer Dan wrote: »

I've a bunch of heifers that I intend using Ai on this year. There daughters of my stock bull.
I want to breed my own replacements rather that buying in. I'm in the bdgp. There all red 5 star 3/4 herefords. There 360 kg @ 13 months old.
Dovea Ai is the company I'd be using. Hopefully more of you knowledgeable people can advise me on my bull choice. I don't mind what breed just what ever you would consider best.
Thanks in advance.

I have three fifteen month old heifers that I AI there. I userd Aa on one small one zlt very easy calfed had a few calfs off him and I used sexed EBY on the stronger heifers. Regardless of the fact getting a heifer calf. When a first time heifer calfs a heifer they usually do it unassisted. Bulls are usually the opposite. I think your already ahead calving at two don't get greedy and use a big bull. Get an Alive one one the ground.

TITANIUM.

tanko wrote: »

That's a bit of a sweeping statement about AA bulls.
Used KDU on the heifers here for a few years, very easy calved and handy little lads when born but plenty of them killed out R+'s and even some U- at good weights.
Have a year old KYA bullock off A first calver here and he doesn't look much different from his ZAG comrades only he's white instead of red.
ZAG isn't suitable for some heifers imo.

If you don't think he's suitable for heifers then I wouldn't like to see your heifers. He's fierce handy calved.

Farmer Dan

TITANIUM. wrote: »

If you don't think he's suitable for heifers then I wouldn't like to see your heifers. He's fierce handy calved.

I'd consider my heifers good so that's why I was hoping to use a easy calving limousin to get a better quality calf as theres a lot of hereford in the heifers . Think I'll go with Elderberry Galahad (EBY) , every one says his easy calve.

TITANIUM.

Farmer Dan wrote: »

I'd consider my heifers good so that's why I was hoping to use a easy calving limousin to get a better quality calf as theres a lot of hereford in the heifers . Think I'll go with Elderberry Galahad (EBY) , every one says his easy calve.

Can't say I've any experience with that bull so can't comment, only saying what I use here and like a few other posters here when i find a good easy calving bull that will bring enough quality then I stick with him for heifers until he's gone or something better comes along

charolais0153

TITANIUM. wrote: »

Can't say I've any experience with that bull so can't comment, only saying what I use here and like a few other posters here when i find a good easy calving bull that will bring enough quality then I stick with him for heifers until he's gone or something better comes along

On his daughters too;)

RD10

have used zag this and last year on heifers and out of twenty calves born, none were assisted and only one bull with charolais breeding in the dam was on the bigger side.
ive used him again on heifers in the past few days.
cutting down the feed pre-calving has a role to play in it too.

patsy_mccabe

In fairness everything that comes out of the Castleview herd is easy calving. Even Castleview Gringo (GWO) is only 6.1% calving and he is out of Vantastic, one of the hardest calving limousine bulls there is, at 10.2%.

Farmer Dan

Anyone use progressive genetics limousin bull DOUDOU.TD (LM2321).?
Looks easy calving. If so how did they turn out?

Dunedin

TITANIUM. wrote: »

Can't say I've any experience with that bull so can't comment, only saying what I use here and like a few other posters here when i find a good easy calving bull that will bring enough quality then I stick with him for heifers until he's gone or something better comes along

Have to say I've been very impressed with zag. Calving heifers at about 32 - 34 months here.

Good strong heifers and they're throwing out the calves. Calving them ahead of the main herd also allows them plenty of time to go back in calf for year 2 which can often be a problem with first calvers.

Regardless of Bull, feeding, exercise and minerals play a huge part ahead of calving.

The Real Elmer Fudd

Has anyone tried aubrac? Just looking at S578 with Dovea 1.1% calving difficulty at 69% reliability €151 replacement value. Have few 15 month old heifers to bull and was thinking of trying him

Who2

The Real Elmer Fudd wrote: »

Has anyone tried aubrac? Just looking at S578 with Dovea 1.1% calving difficulty at 69% reliability €151 replacement value. Have few 15 month old heifers to bull and was thinking of trying him

Never tried any but there's a few farmers around that had them for a while. I couldn't see the point in them . They have absolutaly nothing going for them that can't be done better by some other breed.

The Real Elmer Fudd

Who2 wrote: »

Never tried any but there's a few farmers around that had them for a while. I couldn't see the point in them . They have absolutaly nothing going for them that can't be done better by some other breed.

It's the calving difficulty that's attractive to me. I'm not a massive fan of Angus. The alternatives with that low of calving difficulty aren't that appealing either, saler or speckle park.

I'd normally stick a nice easy calving lim on them but there's a good chance I'm not going to be as available next spring as I have been in the past at calving due to work Hence the emphasis on easy calving

patsy_mccabe

A neighbour here has an Aubrac bull. He says he's breeding very quiet cattle and very easy calving.

Bellview

White Clover wrote:

An awful lot of Aaxfr cattle are almost as bad as jerseys these days. Small narrow cattle with terrible growth rates. This stems from easy calving Angus used on friesian heifers. Imo a good friesian bull calf is more valuable than your average aa calf these days.

Let's not blame the AA bull for the narrow cattle.. there are a lot of dairy cows that no matter the breed they wi breed a narrow end...there are poor aa bulls in ai at minute that don't help

50HX

The Real Elmer Fudd wrote: »

It's the calving difficulty that's attractive to me. I'm not a massive fan of Angus. The alternatives with that low of calving difficulty aren't that appealing either, saler or speckle park.

I'd normally stick a nice easy calving lim on them but there's a good chance I'm not going to be as available next spring as I have been in the past at calving due to work Hence the emphasis on easy calving

nothing wrong with speckled park

have a few calved down & happy so far

Farmer Dan

50HX wrote: »

nothing wrong with speckled park

have a few calved down & happy so far

Any pictures? As a matter of interest, why dI'd you choose speckle park?

High bike

patsy_mccabe wrote: »

A neighbour here has an Aubrac bull. He says he's breeding very quiet cattle and very easy calving.

Have a lad here that I bought last back end as a weanling and he's a nice bull now and easy to handle.Will be letting him off with cows next week so looking forward to see what he produces next year

The Real Elmer Fudd

50HX wrote: »

nothing wrong with speckled park

have a few calved down & happy so far

How do they sell though?

tanko

Every year between 65-70% of the calvings vets from the practice i use are called to, involve heifers calving for the first time.
The average farmer is using bulls which are too hard calving on heifers.

bogman_bass

Had my first aubrac calf last week. Au2155. Not the smallest calf ever; took a good pull wth the ropes to get him out.

Wouldn't dismiss a breed based on one calf though

Who2

Isn't there plenty of limo out there easy calving enough, if a heifer can't take a bull with 5% cd then she shouldn't be put in calf. I'm calving at 24 months and the only real issues I've had were with apz heifers and narrow pelvises.

Zr105

Farmer Dan wrote: »

Anyone use progressive genetics limousin bull DOUDOU.TD (LM2321).?
Looks easy calving. If so how did they turn out?

Have a doudou bull calf here this year, he hit the ground by himself out of a second calver. can't really comment on his shape as I haven't paid much attention to him, he was a very high replacement value at the time of ai I think and was hoping for a heifer but may have dropped since.
Used a lot of zag last year and using him again on the heifers this year, small enough calves for the most part when born but they seem to have shape to them and are certainly growing well imo.

Calving all heifers here at 22-25 months, have a few older dairy crosses from autumn herds that would have calved around the 30month mark but you'd be hard set to pick them apart from size after a year or 2, they may not be as big the first year but they do grow on after, and even if the calf is a little bit poorer compared to the older cows calves it's still a calf extra without carrying the heifer an extra year.

In our case we are finishing animals at around the 2 year old mark, it means that the heifer is 4 before you truly see a return from her, and if she was to be held and calve at 36 months she'd be 5 before any return was got from her that's an awful length to have to carry her imo and shed be and old cow by the time she'd have 5 calves on the ground,

tanko

Who2 wrote: »

Isn't there plenty of limo out there easy calving enough, if a heifer can't take a bull with 5% cd then she shouldn't be put in calf. I'm calving at 24 months and the only real issues I've had were with apz heifers and narrow pelvises.

What do you feed those heifers over their first winter if they're spring born calves to get them heavy enough at bulling?

Who2

tanko wrote: »

What do you feed those heifers over their first winter if they're spring born calves to get them heavy enough at bulling?

Silage adlib and two kg of meal until the end of January. Then left to grass and bull dropped in around first of second week in April. I've two heifers this year that didn't break 400kg but the bull still went in. Ideally I'd like them 450kg but it's hard getting them all to it. I've three late autumn (nov) calves that are over 450 but the rest this year are averaging 405kg

50HX

Farmer Dan wrote: »

Any pictures? As a matter of interest, why dI'd you choose speckle park?

easy calving - got one straw of wro for free and just tried it

good hardy lively calves - a bit like kya when born size wise but after a few weeks they take off

that one straw i have kept her as a replacement heifer for next year

had a mart manager out looking at my weanlings before sale and he reckoned she'd make good money as a breeding heifer coz of the colour of her

i'll get some pics up at the w/end of her and this years calves as well

Farmer Dan

i'll get some pics up at the w/end of her and this years calves as well[/quote]

Looking forward to seeing them as I've never seen them only a picture of a bull in a ai catalogue.