Boundary wall/extension

goz83

Work will be commencing on a rear extension this month. The plan is to take down the boundary wall and build on it, rather than up to it. The property owner (LL) next door is ok with this. The long term tenant is also fine with the work.

The extension itself will extend out 5 Metres. It will be a flat GRP roof with no guttering on the neighbours side. The current wall height is about 2.4 metres, but the extension height will be around 3.4 metres high, meaning the boundary for 5 metres will be a metre taller than before. The roof will essentially be right under the upstairs windows. This is to allow additional windows at the yard end of the extension.

I plan to drop a copy of the drawings into the neighbour and have a quick chat about the work, but are there any problems envisaged here? The LL had just lost a family member, so I kept the details brief when he stopped by at short notice.

Gumbo

Have you got a parapet wall separating you and the neighbour?
Will it be structurally designed to take 2 stories on both sides?
Remember, this is the wall that your Neighbour will be building on in the future should he reside to do so.
Show us a rear elevation if you have one.
Have you agreed a finish on the Neighbour's side.

goz83

kceire wrote: »

Have you got a parapet wall separating you and the neighbour?

Parapet wall? I believe I have included that in the drawing and the builder has mentioned this to me and I heard him mention it to the owner.

kceire wrote: »

Will it be structurally designed to take 2 stories on both sides?

Yes. Recommendation was to lay foundation for 2 stories.

kceire wrote: »

Remember, this is the wall that your Neighbour will be building on in the future should he reside to do so.

I mentioned this in a letter I gave to the tenant for the Landlords attention when I was unable to reach him. Turns out that he is a block layer himself

I would have no problem with them building onto the wall in the future. I would however insist on a pre construction check in my own property, so any damage occurring would be clearly marked and covered.

kceire wrote: »

Show us a rear elevation if you have one.

Please excuse the crude drawing. I used sketchup. The skylights arrived yesterday. 1x2m quad glazed. Heavy mother fcukers!

kceire wrote: »

Have you agreed a finish on the Neighbour's side.

I said we would make good his side of the wall. It's currently bare brick. He just wanted to know if the whole boundary wall would be replaced and spoke about pointing the brick work. I don't think replacing the entire wall will be necessary. The is a support pillar on my side of the wall at the halfway point. I reckon we will replace up to that point, which is just an extra metre after the extension.

Calahonda52

First up, you need to pay attention to this
http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2009/act/27/enacted/en/print#part8-chap3.
Both parties have rights and responsibilities here, which need to be considered.

Next up:
lets guess existing wall is 100mm
lets guess the new wall is 100 150 100 so 350mm wide.
Basic strip foundation design is that this strip foundation will be 1.050m wide so the Op will be gouging say a 400 [350 plus 50] wide trench over his side and maybe 900 deep, so the wall in centred on the foundation...
Is he aware of this finer detail?

If the LL has any plans on building as well, then the solution I prefer is to put in the foundations for both walls now: different ideas are used, one is for OP to build his wall with 9" blocks on flat, with the finished line along the boundary line and let the LL do the same when he decides to do so.

The OP will also need access to finish the wall on the LL side.
The OP's parapet must drain back onto his property

goz83

Calahonda52 wrote: »

First up, you need to pay attention to this
http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2009/act/27/enacted/en/print#part8-chap3.
Both parties have rights and responsibilities here, which need to be considered.

Next up:
lets guess existing wall is 100mm
lets guess the new wall is 100 150 100 so 350mm wide.
Basic strip foundation design is that this strip foundation will be 1.050m wide so the Op will be gouging say a 400 [350 plus 50] wide trench over his side and maybe 900 deep, so the wall in centred on the foundation...
Is he aware of this finer detail?

If the LL has any plans on building as well, then the solution I prefer is to put in the foundations for both walls now: different ideas are used, one is for OP to build his wall with 9" blocks on flat, with the finished line along the boundary line and let the LL do the same when he decides to do so.

The OP will also need access to finish the wall on the LL side.
The OP's parapet must drain back onto his property

Cheers Cala. It's like Deja vú here......am I in the EV forum ?

My builder did talk foundations with the LL so I think, because he is a brick layer, he will be aware of the temporary intrusion. Access to the LL property won't be an issue. We get on with the tenant and have said we would be running it all by her. My Brother has landscaping experience, so he will fix the neighbours garden, which I think is all grass.

All the above ground stuff will be on our side. It's the foundation which will be the only physical intrusion, but this will be covered up asap. All drainage will be directed into my property. The wife wants rain water harvesting anyway.....so.

Gumbo

I would ask what the wall build up is proposed to be.
Because in the future, this wall may become the party wall so it has Fire separation regulations it must meet and also sound regulations to meet.

The new wall would want to be 215 / 150 / 100 imo
The 215 on the flat been placed centered on the boundary and he can then insulate what ever way he wants at a later day.

goz83

kceire wrote: »

I would ask what the wall build up is proposed to be.
Because in the future, this wall may become the party wall so it has Fire separation regulations it must meet and also sound regulations to meet.

The new wall would want to be 215 / 150 / 100 imo
The 215 on the flat been placed centered on the boundary and he can then insulate what ever way he wants at a later day.

My FIL will be doing most of the building. He's made himself available to do the job, so I'm sure I will end up with a good job.

I would be surprised if the LL ever wanted to sell the house, because he owes no mortgage on it (afaik) and doesn't visit the property at all according to the tenant. He won't extend a rented property and so I see it remaining as a boundary wall and not a party wall. In any case, it will be better insulated than the current party wall. We hear most things from next door....from closing doors to kids running around.

Calahonda52

kceire wrote: »

I would ask what the wall build up is proposed to be.
Because in the future, this wall may become the party wall so it has Fire separation regulations it must meet and also sound regulations to meet.

The new wall would want to be 215 / 150 / 100 imo
The 215 on the flat been placed centered on the boundary and he can then insulate what ever way he wants at a later day.

yep, thats another way of doing it!

goz83

kceire wrote: »

The new wall would want to be 215 / 150 / 100 imo
The 215 on the flat been placed centered on the boundary and he can then insulate what ever way he wants at a later day.

Just reading this again. Do you mean we should use 215 solids, laid down on their faces on the centre of the boundary?

I assume the 150 is the insulation gap and then 100 bricks for the inner leaf?

Calahonda52

goz83 wrote: »

Just reading this again. Do you mean we should use 215 solids, laid down on their faces on the centre of the boundary?

I assume the 150 is the insulation gap and then 100 bricks for the inner leaf?

Yes: you are in effect replacing the existing 100 with a 215..
Read the legal link I sent you closely: while its all fine and dandy for the LL and tenant to say they are cool with it now, its usually a different story when the noise, dust, machinery, skips etc and muscular men stripped to the waist swigging cans of Tennants appear in the LL garden.

Gumbo

goz83 wrote: »

Just reading this again. Do you mean we should use 215 solids, laid down on their faces on the centre of the boundary?

I assume the 150 is the insulation gap and then 100 bricks for the inner leaf?

Yes 100%. While you might not think it now, that wall may become a party wall in the future and YOU need to ensure the fire regs are met as you are building on the boundary line at this time.

The other way is to step it inside your boundary but I always advise people to do do it the way I propose above.

The 150mm gap I would specify to be fully filled with xtratherm full fill
Insulation or similar product.

Calahonda52

The stepping in, having removed the existing, is problematic as the new wall is no longer a boundary wall and unless the foundation is designed for the additional wall it creates a problem in so far as the new foundation now effectively stops the LL from using the wall at all as it encroaches maybe 40cms into his garden so its not a good approach, imo

Gumbo

Calahonda52 wrote: »

The stepping in, having removed the existing, is problematic as the new wall is no longer a boundary wall and unless the foundation is designed for the additional wall it creates a problem in so far as the new foundation now effectively stops the LL from using the wall at all as it encroaches maybe 40cms into his garden so its not a good approach, imo

100% agree. It then creates a small rat run / void between any proposed extensions and it looks crap from an visual point of view imo.

Goz, on another note, do you have anyone working with you with regards to the design of the extension?

I'm not mad in the glazing clutter to the rear elevation and feel there are other ways to make it better imo of course.

goz83

kceire wrote: »

100% agree. It then creates a small rat run / void. Eternal any proposed extensions and it looks crap from an visual point of view imo.

Goz, on another note, do you have anyone working with you with regards to the season of the extension?

I'm not mad in the glazing clutter to the rear elevation and feel there are other ways to make it better imo of course.

I'm not sure what you mean by "season of the extension". The general design and ideas are coming from a crack in my skull. The builder will be turning the design into a building. My FIL is in his sixties and tends to drift on detail when questions are asked, so I take a leap of faith when he is doing work, which always works out in the end.....taking exception to the extra grey hairs on my head.

The french doors are being recycled, but if you have suggestions, I will certainly consider them. I know the wife doesn't want a full width glass wall/door, so I ruled that out.

Gumbo

goz83 wrote: »

I'm not sure what you mean by "season of the extension". The general design and ideas are coming from a crack in my skull. The builder will be turning the design into a building. My FIL is in his sixties and tends to drift on detail when questions are asked, so I take a leap of faith when he is doing work, which always works out in the end.....taking exception to the extra grey hairs on my head.

The french doors are being recycled, but if you have suggestions, I will certainly consider them. I know the wife doesn't want a full width glass wall/door, so I ruled that out.

Stupid iPhone and predictive text
It should read "Design of the extension".

If you are recycling the French doors, then not a lot that can be done I suppose.
I would have had a full width door to the rear, either 4 pane (2 outer fixed and 2 inside slide out) or half and half slide.

I would have increased the height of this door and do away with the little square windows above as in reality they may look bad and not as you have drawn to allow for lintels, placement within blocks etc

Something like this I suppose

https://www.pinterest.com/pin/513691901225280549/

goz83

Full width doors would have been preference. Cost of them and wifes preference have trumped i'm afraid. I didn't price any, but i'm pretty sure the cost would be a few thousand.

Gumbo

goz83 wrote: »

Full width doors would have been preference. Cost of them and wifes preference have trumped i'm afraid. I didn't price any, but i'm pretty sure the cost would be a few thousand.

PVC - about 3k
Aluminum - about 5k

Rough guesses based on pricing I've done last week for a similar project.
But then don't forget you save on not having to buy the other windows.

goz83

kceire wrote: »

PVC - about 3k
Aluminum - about 5k

Rough guesses based on pricing I've done last week for a similar project.
But then don't forget you save on not having to buy the other windows.

I will have another chat with the boss and see if shes' open to it. Are we talking full height? There's about 1.2 metres (so about 1 metre to fill) of extra space between the top of the french doors and the roof.

Don't suppose you have a beermat sketch of exactly what you suggest and if you want to PM a company you'd recommend.

Calahonda52

My take on this is to go fully glazed top to bottom as per KC , with a top ope on each side for ventilation, with a pair of french doors opening out, with either the mechanism to hold them open or tie back hooks: Thats what I have as it keeps them open and grandkids can't be dragging out of them.

I don't like sliders, have fixed too many over the years and the airtightness brushes don't last... yes old school....

My guess is that there is a steel beam going in the existing house, if so that needs proper certificate, at time of doing and not ex post facto

Gumbo

goz83 wrote: »

I will have another chat with the boss and see if shes' open to it. Are we talking full height? There's about 1.2 metres (so about 1 metre to fill) of extra space between the top of the french doors and the roof.

Don't suppose you have a beermat sketch of exactly what you suggest and if you want to PM a company you'd recommend.

Forgive the crudeness but i done while the kids are swinging out of me singing some Paw Patrol crap



My idea would be to do the extension with a feature brick finish. So pick a contrasting brick from the existing dashes house and considering your FIL is a brickie then at least labour and good workmanship is covered.

If you didn't want to go with brick, a contrasting dark render and dark door depending on the actual colour of the existing house dash/render.

I would continue the parapet wall all around the extension essentially hiding the flat roof and roof lights and place a nice capping stone around. Worse case if the neighbour builds in the future he can join in or if he goes 2 storey then you loose the capping on that side.

Thunderbeach

Hi sorry to jump in but can't seem to post my own thread. If a neighbour has gone over my boundary is it an enforcement issue or a civil matter. Thanks

Gumbo

Thunderbeach wrote: »

Hi sorry to jump in but can't seem to post my own thread. If a neighbour has gone over my boundary is it an enforcement issue or a civil matter. Thanks

Civil matter.
Talk to your neighbour asap.

Are the works still ongoing?

Thunderbeach

Yes ongoing . We already have an enforcement issue going on as they have gone too high and now discovered this. They are not approachable . We have asked them about reducing height of fence and they said no. It's over the allowable height limit.

Gumbo

Thunderbeach wrote: »

Yes ongoing . We already have an enforcement issue going on as they have gone too high and now discovered this. They are not approachable . We have asked them about reducing height of fence and they said no. It's over the allowable height limit.

Get professional advice before it goes too far.
Solicitors letter may be required at this stage.

goz83

Thanks kceire. That's what I had in mind, rather then the full 100% width of glass. Although the roof height will be closer to the lintels.

Im going with a GRP roof and it the parapet is built on all sides, what do you think about planting the roof with grass and wild flowers? I hear it's great for insulation. Maybe the Leaf has turned me into a tree hugger

Gumbo

goz83 wrote: »

Thanks kceire. That's what I had in mind, rather then the full 100% width of glass. Although the roof height will be closer to the lintels.

Im going with a GRP roof and it the parapet is built on all sides, what do you think about planting the roof with grass and wild flowers? I hear it's great for insulation. Maybe the Leaf has turned me into a tree hugger

The GRP roof is fine. I don't like the way it finishes without a parapet as it runs into a gutter. Not my personal cup of tea if I'm honest.

Grass roof is a fantastic system. Needs special engineering to allow for the extra weight and the build of water that may lodge there during a downpour. Can attract some birds etc

Calahonda52

goz83 wrote: »

Thanks kceire. That's what I had in mind, rather then the full 100% width of glass. Although the roof height will be closer to the lintels.

Im going with a GRP roof and it the parapet is built on all sides, what do you think about planting the roof with grass and wild flowers? I hear it's great for insulation. Maybe the Leaf has turned me into a tree hugger

You will defo need a full structural engineering design for this Newgrange-esque idea and that beam out front will be a bigger section

Calahonda52

kceire wrote: »

Get professional advice before it goes too far.
Solicitors letter may be required at this stage.

You also need to consider this

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2009/act/27/enacted/en/print#part8-chap3

Mod: perhaps move this few posts into a new thread as they detract from this one

goz83

@ kceire/cala

Thanks for your contributions on this. I'm really considering going the full width doors if I can find a decent price. I'm not sure yet.

I have a concern. The current french doors fill a 2.25h x 2w space. The full width doors seem to come as standard height of 2.1m, but I don't want to be left with a full metre of bricks above the door.

Would I be better to go with the standard height and then get a separate window to sit above doors....or ask for taller doors, or have top windows built into the door frame?

The full width of extension is 5.3m, so I am thinking 4m will be ideal (four 1m wide panels).

Calahonda52

window over door will have way too much frame in it
what height is the roof at the garden

BryanF

OP what orientation is the glazing facing ? (Time of the day it gets the best sun)

goz83

Calahonda52 wrote: »

window over door will have way too much frame in it
what height is the roof at the garden

From floor to ceiling it will be a comfortable 3m high. I don't want a metre of bare face wall above the doors when I could be and should be lapping up all the light possible.

There will be a shed at the back of the garden, 3.75m away from the extension and it will be 2.5-3m wide and I reckon 2.5 tall.

BryanF wrote: »

OP what orientation is the glazing facing ? (Time of the day it gets the best sun)

Orientation is south. Right now, i'm in the front of the house and the living room, as usual, is dark. The kitchen is nice and bright. Looking out the kitchen window, the sun is above me and a bit forward and at around 11 O clock (if that makes sense).

Our front garden doesn't get great sun. The back garden get decent sun

goz83

I'm not seeing the big doors working right now. I have used the standard 2100 high with 4000 wide.

Example 1 is without windows above. There is a metre left above the door.


Example 2 is with 600 high windows.


Any suggestions?

Calahonda52

The obvious one os to drop the height
South facing with that much glass may require solar shading strategies
https://www.carbontrust.com/media/19525/ctl065-how-to-implement-solar-shading.pdf
or even
https://www.carbontrust.com/media/131488/ctl023_how_to_implement_de-stratification_fans.pdf

Gumbo

The problem is the height of the extension to be honest.
It's too big in my personal opinion and if you were my client I'd be advising against it.

You also have to consider the drop from the bedroom windows straight into the line of a roof light. This is a breach of Part B (Fire Safety), windows for escape or rescue purposes.

goz83

Maybe the answer is to lose some height then and come down a meter.

The roof lights will be 1 metre away from the house. I may move them another half meter. They look a lot close in the screen shots I provided. Here is a direct view down.


Thanks again lads for your input. Work will be starting soon, so I am trying to finalise a few things.

I have to admit that I have a preference for the LARGE doors, where there are 2 panels at about 2m wide each. Except the layout of the extension will be different, so I don't think that type of door is as practical as centre opening doors. Not going to rule it out though.

Something like these

BryanF

Are you spending 5,10,20,30k on glazing?

goz83

BryanF wrote: »

Are you spending 5,10,20,30k on glazing?

Trying to keep the spend low....looking out for good prices, but will spend what I need to...within reason.

The roof windows arrived a few days ago. They are both 1x2m quad glazed with self cleaning glass. The U Value is 0.6 and they cost me around €1900 delivered with upstands.

edited to add: Want to keep it under 5k.

Gumbo

goz83 wrote: »

Trying to keep the spend low....looking out for good prices, but will spend what I need to...within reason.

The roof windows arrived a few days ago. They are both 1x2m quad glazed with self cleaning glass. The U Value is 0.6 and they cost me around €1900 delivered with upstands.

edited to add: Want to keep it under 5k.

Under 5k means you have to forget about bi-fold (like your pic). Alu-clad is probably out too. PVC or aluminum is possible (nothing wrong with either imo).

I done this recently





Alluminium but close to 10k worth.

goz83

I'll keep an eye on ebay :pac:

Sausage dog

Just to give an idea of costs...We fitted double glazed aluminium bi fold doors with four panels recently. Size 4.2m wide & 2.1m high. Cost €6,000.

goz83

Sausage dog wrote: »

Just to give an idea of costs...We fitted double glazed aluminium bi fold doors with four panels recently. Size 4.2m wide & 2.1m high. Cost €6,000.

Thanks. I've a 4 panel, 4m wide aluminium bifold door coming in at not much more than €2k on ebay. I know nothing about them though and need to do a bit of research. I'd be doubtful of their quality and the U value is 1.1. I'm confident that there are good deals out there....there always are.

BryanF

Sausage dog wrote: »

Just to give an idea of costs...We fitted double glazed aluminium bi fold doors with four panels recently. Size 4.2m wide & 2.1m high. Cost €6,000.

How high are the ceilings in the room? For the room height appearing in these sketches, would you be factoring in steel lintel and more window above..

goz83

BryanF wrote: »

How high are the ceilings in the room? For the room height appearing in these sketches, would you be factoring in steel lintel and more window above..

In the sketch/plan, from floor to ceiling would be approx 3.3m and I was allowing 0.3 on top of that from ceiling to roof top.

I am thinking of dropping nearly a metre off this now. I did want tall ceilings, but i'm not sure it's practical, or cost effective.

Gumbo

goz83 wrote: »

Thanks. I've a 4 panel, 4m wide aluminium bifold door coming in at not much more than €2k on ebay. I know nothing about them though and need to do a bit of research. I'd be doubtful of their quality and the U value is 1.1. I'm confident that there are good deals out there....there always are.

There's loads in eBay alright.
I've seen them fitted before, sourced and supplied by the client. The builder then can't fit it properly, out of plumb and in cases they couldn't get handles and locks to fit properly.

Then when they did, I made them take it down as the door had no CE mark, no toughened glazing and the stamp in the corner could be rubbed off by hand.

That was the worse case scenario and it wasn't far from you in D9

Do the research and ask lots of questions about the glazing, safety/toughened etcc

Calahonda52

goz83 wrote: »

Thanks. I've a 4 panel, 4m wide aluminium bifold door coming in at not much more than €2k on ebay. I know nothing about them though and need to do a bit of research. I'd be doubtful of their quality and the U value is 1.1. I'm confident that there are good deals out there....there always are.

I can't even believe you wrote this...KC has covered it well
DG stuff is ropey enough new
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RoDPPgWbfXY

goz83

Calahonda52 wrote: »

I can't even believe you wrote this...KC has covered it well
DG stuff is ropey enough new
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RoDPPgWbfXY

:pac:

I haven't purchased anything. Looking back at my post, it does look I was saying that. Not sure what I was trying to write there, but it should say that I spotted a set on eBay and would be doing research.

BryanF

goz83 wrote: »

In the sketch/plan, from floor to ceiling would be approx 3.3m and I was allowing 0.3 on top of that from ceiling to roof top.

I am thinking of dropping nearly a metre off this now. I did want tall ceilings, but i'm not sure it's practical, or cost effective.

Roof build-up from parapet to ceiling :
Perimeter upstand say 100mm high side
1/60 fall over xM (x = how many meters?)
Membrabe (bitumen/fibreglass/single ply etc)
Timber layer (ply et al)
Insulation say 150mm PIR
Timber layer /vapour barrier
Rafters (service cavity)
Plasterboard

goz83

BryanF wrote: »

Roof build-up from parapet to ceiling :
Perimeter upstand say 100mm high side
1/60 fall over xM (x = how many meters?)
Membrabe (bitumen/fibreglass/single ply etc)
Timber layer (ply et al)
Insulation say 150mm PIR
Timber layer /vapour barrier
Rafters (service cavity)
Plasterboard

I had left 300mm as a guess from the ceiling to the top of the roof. I'll finalise what I want before the end of the week and then leave the building to the builder. I'm going to document the build and prices as much as possible.

Calahonda52

goz83 wrote: »

I had left 300mm as a guess from the ceiling to the top of the roof. I'll finalise what I want before the end of the week and then leave the building to the builder. I'm going to document the build and prices as much as possible.

If you thing solar gain in the roof might be an issue consider wood fibre insulation, will send you a pm

goz83

Calahonda52 wrote: »

If you thing solar gain in the roof might be an issue consider wood fibre insulation, will send you a pm

Thanks. I will have a look through that.