Bidding War...New Bidder

jfk247

Hi,
I'm completely new to all this stuff so forgive my naivety and newbie-ness (may not be a word) on all this stuff.
Currently bidding on a house against one other party until we got a phone call this morning from the estate agent to inform us that a new bidder has come forward and jumped a good few grand above our offer.  Our last offer went in last Tuesday and until now, we hadn't heard anything.  The other bidder we were up usually took a few days/week to think about things before going again.  They'd go 1k, we'd go 2k etc this new bid has gone 7k.
Suppose my question is, is it normal for viewings to continue on properties if 2 parties are currently bidding against each other?
Could they have seen it already and kept quiet until they thought the time was right to try and blow us out of the water by going big?

whiskeyman

It's a tough one.
If anything, its times like this you need to know the max you'll go and be happy to walk away no matter what.

You can take the risk that it's a bluff and go no further, but you may lose the house.

I think at this rate you should bid your best offer and leave it at that (don't say that obviously).
In this market, there's very little you can gain as it really is a sellers market.

jfk247

Thanks whiskeyman.  It's a tough one alright....
As you said, it's a sellers market and it could be another few months before we get the opportunity to see something with the potential this one has but they've gone over our max that we'd pay for the house as it needs a bit of fixing up.
I'm nearly happy to leave it be and see if it's just some tactics.  We'd nearly be 10k above what we'd want to pay, which would be better spent sprucing up the place and furnishing it.
I'll drink some more tea and ponder the situation.

whiskeyman

jfk247 wrote: »

Thanks whiskeyman.  It's a tough one alright....
As you said, it's a sellers market and it could be another few months before we get the opportunity to see something with the potential this one has but they've gone over our max that we'd pay for the house as it needs a bit of fixing up.
I'm nearly happy to leave it be and see if it's just some tactics.  We'd nearly be 10k above what we'd want to pay, which would be better spent sprucing up the place and furnishing it.
I'll drink some more tea and ponder the situation.

If it's genuinely gone above your max, I think you need to walk away, unless you want to sacrifice some of the 'fixing up' money to ensure you have a better chance at getting the property.
We walked from many houses in similar situations to your own.
You'd be driven mad if you try and understand the logic / reasoning behind the other bidders. Just keep going up til you hit your max and that's all you can do really.

Others may suggest other tactics - deffo think and discuss it through though.
Best of luck. Hope something works out.

Sean Fantastic

I had something very similar happen to me when the last bubble was raging. No matter what I bid the other bidder kept jumping me and I couldn't shake the feeling that I was being duped by the EA.

What I did in the end was to put in a last and final offer and told the estate agent that that was my last offer and if the other bidder added even 10€ to the my bid then the EA could tell them then and there that the house was theirs.

Funnily enough I was told 30 mins later that the I had got the house.

whiskeyman

Sean Fantastic wrote: »

What I did in the end was to put in a last and final offer and told the estate agent that that was my last offer and if the other bidder added even 10€ to the my bid then the EA could tell them then and there that the house was theirs.
.

I know I said to ignore what others were saying, but at the same time I'd always avoid giving the EA any more info than they need.

By saying 'this is my final offer', they could use this to a potential other bidder that they may like to say 'offer 1k more, and it's yours'.

Thumpette

Had a similar ish thing happen when we were buying our house (4 years ago so different marketplace). We were going up against another party and getting to asking price level when suddenly another party came in and upped by 15k! All sounded a bit dodgy (and beyond budget) so we walked away. Heard nothing more on it and saw a few weeks later that it was back advertised. Contacted the ea and they confirmed that the higher offer had fallen through- no idea why they didn't come back to us! Put 1k on our last offer and secured for that. I know we were lucky with timing- (though had just lost a fortune on an apartment bought in 2007!) but I'd definitely not go above what you think the place is worth to you. Strange another party would come in and up the game so much too. Good luck- hope you get this or another home soon!

HiGlo

I was recently bidding on an apartment and it was similar, myself and the other bidder each going up 1k at a time...

They were still running viewings which the bidding was ongoing (I think I saw about 2 or 3 more viewings advertised on MyHome.ie).

At one point I said "best and final" but the EA just ignored me and still came back to me when the other bidder increased (I put in one more bid after!) a 3rd bidder joined the process and I bowed out when it got to my limit.
A short while later I went Sale Agreed on a diff place so I e:mailed the original place to see where it was at, out of curiosity and they'd obviously picked up more bidders as it was going sale agreed at 20k above my last bid!! :eek:

Must be painful waiting days/a week for the other bidder to come back... That would drive me mad. When I was bidding it was moving over the course of the day, usually about 6-8 hrs between bids!

Parchment

Thumpette wrote: »

Had a similar ish thing happen when we were buying our house (4 years ago so different marketplace). We were going up against another party and getting to asking price level when suddenly another party came in and upped by 15k! All sounded a bit dodgy (and beyond budget) so we walked away. Heard nothing more on it and saw a few weeks later that it was back advertised. Contacted the ea and they confirmed that the higher offer had fallen through- no idea why they didn't come back to us! Put 1k on our last offer and secured for that. I know we were lucky with timing- (though had just lost a fortune on an apartment bought in 2007!) but I'd definitely not go above what you think the place is worth to you. Strange another party would come in and up the game so much too. Good luck- hope you get this or another home soon!

Not really strange - its actually a good way to do it. You let the people squabble and then you can make a call on how much, if any, you want to bid.

Ironman76

Id strongly recommend a broker. Saved ourselves 30k and got our perfect house in two weeks after two years of house hunting and being dicked around by EAs.

Ms Doubtfire1

Don't ever go over what you want to spend.Mind you this is another bubble and it will burst.Yo'll be in negative equity before you know. To me,. this is a very bad time to buy a place.I'd step back, save a few more years and wait for the crash..

Paddytheman

Ironman76 wrote: »

Id strongly recommend a broker. Saved ourselves 30k and got our perfect house in two weeks after two years of house hunting and being dicked around by EAs.

What exactly did your broker do to save you this cash? Very interested,

Paddytheman

jfk247 wrote: »

Thanks whiskeyman.  It's a tough one alright....
As you said, it's a sellers market and it could be another few months before we get the opportunity to see something with the potential this one has but they've gone over our max that we'd pay for the house as it needs a bit of fixing up.
I'm nearly happy to leave it be and see if it's just some tactics.  We'd nearly be 10k above what we'd want to pay, which would be better spent sprucing up the place and furnishing it.
I'll drink some more tea and ponder the situation.

We had a max set in our heads but when the price hit that level we re-assessed, paying rent vs mortgage would cost us €5,000 over the course of a year and given the current increase in property costs we came back in with the extra €5,000 and went sale agreed.

Surveyors report was quite bad so withdrew in the end but very hard to draw a line particularly having planned and quoted for kitchen/bathroom etc..

jfk247

Thanks for the comments from everyone good to see I'm not being over suspicious.
Although... My wife just got a "follow up" call from the EA. Either desperate to drive the price up or panicking cause we haven't put another bid in on top of the potentially fake bid.
Told them we needed a few days and nothing else. See what happens during the long weekend....

Retrovertigo

It's not unusual for EA's to bump prices from mystery buyers, I've had it happen to me. I retracted my offer on one place after realizing something was going on and the other buyer disappeared.

This is not however to say that there cannot be other parties bidding, just need to be wary and not caught up in the excitement, it's a typical sales tactic.

Sean Fantastic

Ironman76 wrote: »

Id strongly recommend a broker. Saved ourselves 30k and got our perfect house in two weeks after two years of house hunting and being dicked around by EAs.

How does that work?

Sean Fantastic

Ms Doubtfire1 wrote: »

Don't ever go over what you want to spend.Mind you this is another bubble and it will burst.Yo'll be in negative equity before you know. To me,. this is a very bad time to buy a place.I'd step back, save a few more years and wait for the crash..

Not sure about this. In the short term at least house prices are only going one way and that's up. Even if you do extend yourself by 40 or 50k you can always flip later on in the year for a potential profit if you change your mind.

zl1whqvjs75cdy

Sean Fantastic wrote: »

Not sure about this. In the short term at least house prices are only going one way and that's up. Even if you do extend yourself by 40 or 50k you can always flip later on in the year for a potential profit if you change your mind.

Gambling on short term price increases is insanity. That's what happened the last time. However, I do agree that prices are going up, and more than that, rent is skyrocketing so your choice becomes pay massive rent or pay a usually smaller mortgage. Yes the house is probably over priced, particularly compared to 18 months ago, but it's still a financially better decision to buy ASAP.

super_furry

Was bidding on a house in Kimmage with an asking price of €395,000. It was at €405k when we made a bid on Monday and by 4pm today, it was at €450k with four people bidding.

It's gone crazy out there again.

Ms Doubtfire1

super_furry wrote: »

Was bidding on a house in Kimmage with an asking price of €395,000. It was at €405k when we made a bid on Monday and by 4pm today, it was at €450k with four people bidding.

It's gone crazy out there again.

It most definitely has and it's scary. This is going to burst and I bet within the next 12 month. I could buy for cash at this point in time but I'm sitting tight.

mirrormatrix

Ms Doubtfire1 wrote: »

It most definitely has and it's scary. This is going to burst and I bet within the next 12 month. I could buy for cash at this point in time but I'm sitting tight.

What are you basing this guess on? Not criticising, just interested. There seem to be an awful lot of buyers out there with access to credit. There is also a massive shortage of properties out there right now, and that is certainly not going to be resolved within the next year.

Why would it crash within 12 months?

Ms Doubtfire1

The rental market situation where there's nothing to rent, which impacts the selling price of houses as people will seek to buy so that in turn fuels the rise in housing prices. Salaries are in no relation to the current prices and sooner than later banks will stop giving out mortgages.If this rise continues, and it will over the the next while, you'll see it burst before the 12 month are out..also a gut feeling as it was this frantic the last time around about a year before things went downhill

aloooof

mirrormatrix wrote: »

What are you basing this guess on? Not criticising, just interested. There seem to be an awful lot of buyers out there with access to credit. There is also a massive shortage of properties out there right now, and that is certainly not going to be resolved within the next year.

Why would it crash within 12 months?

Genuinely interested as well. Trying to make sense of the market at the moment and, with my limited knowledge, I'm struggling to figure it out.

It seems to me that the FTB change has meant a lot more people can afford to buy, as they require less of a deposit, but the supply isn't there to meet it. Then equally, the rental market has gotten so expensive that it's encouraging people to buy even more so. Which to me seems like a recipe for the prices to keep increasing?

domrush

You can expect another couple of years of price increases until supply eventually catches up with demand. Wages are rising in most industries, particularly in the Dublin area. This isn't similar to last time as last time we had huge amounts of housing being built for 8/9 years straight whereas there's been very little new supply entering the market since 2008 (again particularly in Dublin).

Ms Doubtfire1

domrush wrote: »

You can expect another couple of years of price increases until supply eventually catches up with demand. Wages are rising in most industries, particularly in the Dublin area. This isn't similar to last time as last time we had huge amounts of housing being built for 8/9 years straight whereas there's been very little new supply entering the market since 2008 (again particularly in Dublin).

Don't agree as it's not sustainable. But let's wait and see...

whiskeyman

super_furry wrote: »

Was bidding on a house in Kimmage with an asking price of €395,000. It was at €405k when we made a bid on Monday and by 4pm today, it was at €450k with four people bidding.

It's gone crazy out there again.

A 10% bidding war above asking price is normal for most I was looking at, so not much a surprise there.
Also, did the EA set the asking price lower to attract more bidders?
You have to go on past sales and current market - asking price doesn't really hold much.

super_furry wrote: »

Salaries are in no relation to the current prices and sooner than later banks will stop giving out mortgages.I

I don't see why you think they'd stop giving mortgages once the CB
rules are met.
The core issues here, unlike last time, is lack of supply and not availability of credit.
Many have been saving for years and are now looking to buy - but the supply isn't there.
Prices may keep going up, but they may level off for certain areas - note that many houses around the 500-700k are actually coming down as the demand simply isn't there. But more and more demand will keep coming into the 300-450 bracket as those get mortgage approval after building up their savings for deposits.

Anyway - this is off thread.
Let us know how you get on OP.

Alanstrainor

OP, I had the same thing happen to me when bidding on our house. Bidding was crawling up over 2 weeks by 1 or 2k a bid then out of no where, bidder number 3 entered the room. I actually bowed out, only to get a call from the EA a week later saying that the 3rd bidder had pulled out, and the other bidder had a house still to sell.

Ended up getting the house for the final bid we had put in. I did bring my bid down after they came back, but at that point all my cards were shown. I'm convinced that the 3rd bidder was made up, and not entirely convinced on the 2nd either. Estate agents are scum :mad:.

We are happy now, but the whole process was massively stressful and you feel very open to being taken advantage of given that there's no accountability for these bids.

whiskeyman

Alanstrainor wrote: »

Estate agents are scum :mad:.

At the same time, sellers can be greedy.
They may have stipulated to the EA to get €x, and the EA may resort to low tactics to try this... or the seller may be the 'phantom bidders' themselves.
with the market the way it is, the seller is probably aware they'll sell the house for a good price, but they want more as they see the bidding war hotting up.
At the end of the day, the EA just wants to sell the house.
The marginal different really makes no difference to his commission.

Paulownia

One large Dublin firm is notorious for this practice, in one case I know of they did not even tell the vendor an offer had been made

Graham

Parchment wrote: »

We were that third bidder in a bidding battle that went on for two weeks - we came in 5k above the last bid and won the house that evening. EA are snakey but just wanted to say that sometimes its not a phantom bidder!

For some reason people much prefer to go with the underhand estate agent theory than accept there's somebody out there willing (and able) to outbid them.

CruelCoin

jfk247 wrote: »

Hi,
I'm completely new to all this stuff so forgive my naivety and newbie-ness (may not be a word) on all this stuff.
Currently bidding on a house against one other party until we got a phone call this morning from the estate agent to inform us that a new bidder has come forward and jumped a good few grand above our offer.  Our last offer went in last Tuesday and until now, we hadn't heard anything.  The other bidder we were up usually took a few days/week to think about things before going again.  They'd go 1k, we'd go 2k etc this new bid has gone 7k.
Suppose my question is, is it normal for viewings to continue on properties if 2 parties are currently bidding against each other?
Could they have seen it already and kept quiet until they thought the time was right to try and blow us out of the water by going big?

The seller can take as many viewers as he likes until the house is sold.
I would ask to see the bid log that the auctioneer is meant to keep. Could be (entirely speculation) that he's throwing chum into the water in between two keen bidders to keep the party going.

I made a big bid when buying my house. Bid started, was countered by 1k, then I blew the fcuker out of the water by 5k, at which point i got it.
What's the poker term....."Buying the pot"

Cyrus

Ms Doubtfire1 wrote: »

It most definitely has and it's scary. This is going to burst and I bet within the next 12 month. I could buy for cash at this point in time but I'm sitting tight.

If you are sitting tight waiting for a crash you will be sitting tight for quite some time

the banks havent loosened lending yet really so most people are buying with 20% + equity, supply is slow and will be slow for at least the next 3-5 years and because of that rents will stay where they are.

this is nothing like the last time where the banks lent at 110% over 40 years

derekbro

We were the new bidders in a similar situation to this recently. We were bidding on one house for a couple of weeks and it went over our max so we moved onto another house where 2 people had been bidding for some time and put in a good offer. Our max offer was outbid anyway on the new place so no luck. Have offered on a few places at this stage and have thought that there were some phantom bids but none have come back to us yet. I think its just the market at the moment.

davej

If it were a buyer's market, wouldn't we have "sneaky" couples using the bargaining ploy of mentioning cheaper phantom houses that they were also bidding on?

davej

Alanstrainor

Parchment wrote: »

We were that third bidder in a bidding battle that went on for two weeks - we came in 5k above the last bid and won the house that evening. EA are snakey but just wanted to say that sometimes its not a phantom bidder!

I mean I appreciate that it's not out of the realm of possibility that there was a fresh bidder. But the fact that they disappeared as quickly as they came definitely got my suspicions up. The fact that estate agents put no bids in writing, wont leave bids on voicemails if calls are missed, just screams fowl play.

Glad its all over now anyway.

domrush

Ms Doubtfire1 wrote: »

Don't agree as it's not sustainable. But let's wait and see...

I don't see how whether you seen it as sustainable or not makes a difference. There's a shortage of housing in Dublin, and there isn't a lot of new housing being built. Until large amounts of new housing come on the market, minimum 2 years I would think, prices will continue to rise.

4ensic15

domrush wrote: »

I don't see how whether you seen it as sustainable or not makes a difference. There's a shortage of housing in Dublin, and there isn't a lot of new housing being built. Until large amounts of new housing come on the market, minimum 2 years I would think, prices will continue to rise.

Until new houses come on the market AND interest rates stay at historic lows, prices will continue to rise.

jfk247

So just to update the thread here...
We went in for another 1k, told them that was our max and we were chatting to the bank etc, just to feel them out. Got a phone call first thing the next morning, the other bidder had gone another 4k on top ours. Needless to say we pulled out straight away.
Happy to let the house go in the end, gone way over what we think it's worth as it will need a good few thousand to make it comfortable, windows, kitchen, paint, floors etc.
Found somewhere else thats cheaper and plenty of potential with full PP already.

Thanks for all the input here...this house hunting is great craic altogether!!!!!

spaceHopper

jfk247 wrote: »

So just to update the thread here...
We went in for another 1k, told them that was our max and we were chatting to the bank etc, just to feel them out. Got a phone call first thing the next morning, the other bidder had gone another 4k on top ours. Needless to say we pulled out straight away.
Happy to let the house go in the end, gone way over what we think it's worth as it will need a good few thousand to make it comfortable, windows, kitchen, paint, floors etc.
Found somewhere else thats cheaper and plenty of potential with full PP already.

Thanks for all the input here...this house hunting is great craic altogether!!!!!

Wait till you have your Saturdays back - no more looking at over prices .... no wait you'll never have a Saturday free again, it will be DIY and gardening...

evolving_doors

I think people often forget to factor in the EA's commission.

You think 5k is going to seal the deal (and in some cases it might)... but really for an EA on a 1% sales commission that translates to just €50. So they might be happy to sit on it a few more months longer... meanwhile house prices 'might' rise 20k in a sellers market. So that's be €200 commission.

It's just one little factor but it might explain why some EAs are a bit lax in getting back to people.

(Depends how much else is on their portfolio too... )

Graham

Gebgbegb wrote: »

I think people often forget to factor in the EA's commission.

You think 5k is going to seal the deal (and in some cases it might)... but really for an EA on a 1% sales commission that translates to just €50. So they might be happy to sit on it a few more months longer... meanwhile house prices 'might' rise 20k in a sellers market. So that's be €200 commission.

It's just one little factor but it might explain why some EAs are a bit lax in getting back to people.

(Depends how much else is on their portfolio too... )

You really think an estate agent is going to turn down €3000 now in the hope of getting €3200 in a few months time?

evolving_doors

Graham wrote: »

Gebgbegb wrote: »

I think people often forget to factor in the EA's commission.

You think 5k is going to seal the deal (and in some cases it might)... but really for an EA on a 1% sales commission that translates to just €50. So they might be happy to sit on it a few more months longer... meanwhile house prices 'might' rise 20k in a sellers market. So that's be €200 commission.

It's just one little factor but it might explain why some EAs are a bit lax in getting back to people.

(Depends how much else is on their portfolio too... )

You really think an estate agent is going to turn down €3000 now in the hope of getting €3200 in a few months time?

Bit confused sorry...Where did you get the €3000 figure from?

Anyhow...The EA's company get the 1or2% of the selling price... personally himself the EA will get a % of this %. So what may seem like a fortune to an overbidder , won't necessarily translate to a fortune for the EA personally. Hence why they might like to hang around the price for a while. If it doesn't bite then just put it back on the market... will the market have moved down since? Not lately anyway.
So my point is that (depending on sales targets too) an EA might be in a stronger position to hold out if they're allowed.
Have a look back through the thread on those who were gazumped but then the sale fell through. Or their 1k bids never ended.

domrush

Gebgbegb wrote: »

Bit confused sorry...Where did you get the ?3000 figure from?

Anyhow...The EA's company get the 1or2% of the selling price... personally himself the EA will get a % of this %. So what may seem like a fortune to an overbidder , won't necessarily translate to a fortune for the EA personally. Hence why they might like to hang around the price for a while. If it doesn't bite then just put it back on the market... will the market have moved down since? Not lately anyway.
So my point is that (depending on sales targets too) an EA might be in a stronger position to hold out if they're allowed.
Have a look back through the thread on those who were gazumped but then the sale fell through. Or their 1k bids never ended.

As in if the estate agent sells now he might get 3000 commission or whatever his cut is, is it really worth his time waiting a few more months for an extra 200 when he could be trying to sell another property in the mean time?