My cousin is being disciplined in work - was he at fault?

Commotion Ocean

Warning, long post.

Bit of a background story, he is 19, his mother is Irish and his dad is German (my mam's sister married a German). He grew up in Germany and he is now 18 and arrived in Ireland recently. He wants to spend a year working here and mix with his side of the Irish family.

He is working now for a certain Irish store. He was assigned a task of 'stock checking' which occurs during normal store opening times, although you may voluntarily begin slightly before opening times or finish slightly after store closing, depending on what suits you, as long as you put in nine hours a day over two days. They are not paid extra or given travel expenses, as it says in the contract that you have to commit to working with the sister branch no more than five days a year.

Alongside him, another girl was assigned stocktaking duty, the sister store that they were deployed to is relatively far from the one where they're based normally in terms of public transport (the girl doesn't drive), so he was asked if he'd bring her.

He made it clear that he'd see her at the car park at 07.00 in the morning and make their way to the other store, at work for nine hours after they arrive, then drive back, thus hopefully beating most of the traffic. (She lives in the town of the base store, only walking distance away, he lives a 10-15 minute drive way.

He arrived at the car park a few minutes before 07.00 in the morning and waited for her, 07.15, 07.30, 07.45 .. still nothing, he tried calling her several times but it just kept ringing out and after the fourth or so attempt just went straight to voicemail. At roughly 08.30, she sauntered in and grunted something that resembled 'hey', and she put in her earphones and didn't speak for the journey, no apologies for being late. (Frankly, I think he was mad to wait that long).

Upon arrival, he said that it wasn't cool being late, and that if she wanted to get a lift the next day, she'd have to be on time, as my cousin had arrangements after work that he had committed to and counted on arriving at roughly 07.30 and finishing at 16.30.

He arrived the next day at the car park of the base store and no sign of her at 07.00, so he waited until 07.10, started the car, put it in gear and drove off. Only for her to arrive at 08.10, with no lift.

The next day when he was back at the base store, he was called to the managers office and lambasted for what he had done. He was told that he was going to have a disciplinary meeting later that day with the assistant manager as a witness.

He prepared for this, and brought his phone into the meeting and secretly recorded the meeting. The manager said he committed 'gross misconduct' and that the sister branch was one person down because of his selfishness. She said that in Ireland "7 O'Clock is only roughly and he should have made himself clear and not committed to anything after work" and the he should go to Switzerland to satisfy his 'clock fetish'.

The problem he has is that he recorded the interview without permission or knowledge from the manager or deputy manager and he didn't have a coworker as a witness, nor was he offered an impartial witness as he wasn't made aware of the right to a witness of his choice.

Can he use this recording against the company?

Senna

No the recording can't be used.
What has happened, has he been dismissed?
Does he feel it was racism?

davo10

Unfortunately for your cousin the most pertinent fact is that having only recently started his job he is still in his probationary period and as he is there less than a year he doesn't have the benefit of protection under the UDA. Time to start searching for a new job by the looks of things.

Sounds like a crap place to work, he was doing her a favour by bringing her, if anyone deserves a kick in the backside (metaphorically speaking) it is her.

judeboy101

Senna wrote: »

No the recording can't be used.
What has happened, has he been dismissed?
Does he feel it was racism?

You might want to ask Sargent mccabe about secret recordings not allowed, he seemed to get a bit of help from one

davo10

Senna wrote: »

No the recording can't be used.
What has happened, has he been dismissed?
Does he feel it was racism?

Only one party in a conversation needs to consent to a recording so yes it could be used if it is relevant.

Racism?

elperello

"Gross misconduct" for not giving a co-worker a lift outside of paid hours.
Not allowed to make commitments for after work.

He is better off looking for a new job.

highgiant1985

7 o clock is 7 o clock. If shes not there for 7 then she should be the one getting disciplined not him. Based on above it sounds like you'll get no where with the current manager though so I'd go above the head of this manager. Is there a HR department or who ever this managers manager is? Go to them and outline his position with the facts saying you feel that you've been dealt with unfairly.

judeboy101

highgiant1985 wrote: »

7 o clock is 7 o clock. If shes not there for 7 then she should be the one getting disciplined not him. Based on above it sounds like you'll get no where with the current manager though so I'd go above the head of this manager. Is there a HR department or who ever this managers manager is? Go to them and outline his position with the facts saying you feel that you've been dealt with unfairly.

Agree with this but if you still feel you are getting no where id end the conversation with a casual "its not because I'm German, is it?"

PREG1967

clock fetish? wow, does he thing labour is free? leave the job asap

Cianmcliam

Was it only a short term deployment to the other store? AFAIK the EU employment regulations now state that if you are travelling to somewhere for work that is not your 'normal place of work' then that travel time is work time.

I agree with the above that the recording could probably be used in external proceedings.

Needs Must

Clock fetish!! Hah well he is German, and you know what they're like for punctuality.

Jimbob1977

Your cousin should embrace Irish culture and show up at 11am for a 9 o'clock start

I wonder what the employer would say about that.

beertons

Was the girl reprimanded too?

HeidiHeidi

All I can say is that your cousin has great patience waiting that long for the girl to show up.

Shoddy by management to take that attitude as well. I'd either be going higher (if there is a higher), or getting the hell out of there if that's the way they're going to approach things.

Tigger

Senna wrote: »

No the recording can't be used.
What has happened, has he been dismissed?
Does he feel it was racism?

Why can't it be used

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=

Morte

I don't know if he can use it but I don't understand what he intends to use it for? If they deem it to be a reason to let him go within his probationary period I don't see why they wouldn't be allowed to.

What strikes me as strange is a 07:00 departure time when the journey was only half an hour. The story would make a lot more sense if your cousin was told he was expected to leave around 08:30 to arrive for 09:00. Having done similar jobs you'd give a bit of leeway to the driver where it exists but expecting the other person to get up at 06:30 or before wouldn't be seen as reasonable.

dreamers75

Is it his job to bring her to work?

Regardless of probation period he is being disciplined for a task that I would assume is not in his contract or job spec.

They are in the wrong, he should appeal any decision or warning and bring in someone for the next meeting.

Morte

Morte wrote: »

I don't know if he can use it but I don't understand what he intends to use it for? If they deem it to be a reason to let him go within his probationary period I don't see why they wouldn't be allowed to.

What strikes me as strange is a 07:00 departure time when the journey was only half an hour. The story would make a lot more sense if your cousin was told he was expected to leave around 08:30 to arrive for 09:00. Having done similar jobs you'd give a bit of leeway to the driver where it exists but expecting the other person to get up at 06:30 or before wouldn't be seen as reasonable.

Or she could just walk.
He was doing her a favour by giving her a lift, didn't have to.

Tigger

Morte wrote: »

I don't know if he can use it but I don't understand what he intends to use it for? If they deem it to be a reason to let him go within his probationary period I don't see why they wouldn't be allowed to.

What strikes me as strange is a 07:00 departure time when the journey was only half an hour. The story would make a lot more sense if your cousin was told he was expected to leave around 08:30 to arrive for 09:00. Having done similar jobs you'd give a bit of leeway to the driver where it exists but expecting the other person to get up at 06:30 or before wouldn't be seen as reasonable.

He wanted to start at 07:30 so he could finish at 16:39
Nine hours
He was organising the transport for himself and asked to bring yer wan
She decided that she'd ignore the turn up at 07:00 request
I wouldn't have had to get up at 06:30 cos I'm a grown up and have my own transport and I hate getting up early but is a person was good enough to give me a lift I wouldn't be ,70minutes late
He will have a case under the equality act if he has what is said recorded
Won't progress far in the company but will make a few quid

BabySlam

I do not see why he would risk his car insurance to give a lift to the woman - would the office not pay for her to go by taxi?/ bus?
It is not his job to give her a lift and he should not have agreed to this - probably not even covered by his insurance for driving colleague.
Not sure what you mean by him using the recording - in what forum? Costs of court would be prohibitive and he has no employment rights (or few) yet.

nikkibikki

I'm guessing it is not in his contract to drive a colleague to work. Just to have himself there. I'm guessing it's in hers to have herself in work. No gross misconduct there at all on his part. Sounds like he's better off working elsewhere.

pilly

If your cousin is still in a probationary period he has little or no rights to be honest. Anyway, sounds like a horrible place to work, he will find somewhere else handy enough at the moment.

GBX

Let her make her own arrangements to get to and from work - unless it is in his contract to provide transport, which I doubt very much it is. Management putting it on him is bad form especially as he is doing them/her a favour and coming out the worst side of it.
Sounds like a poxy place to work for with people like that running the show.

ThunbergsAreGo

beertons wrote: »

Was the girl reprimanded too?

Yes, thats really really rude behaviour

Advice would be to get out

BlinkingLights

I assume the boss was paying for your cousin's insurance and mileage expenses, since he was ordering him to provide transport services to his business.

It's not up to another employee to transport a colleague to work.
If they want to offer each other lifts as a favour, fine. However this seems to have been a formal arrangement and since the boss mentioned gross misconduct etc then it's actually covered by your employment contract as an "order".

If those comments were made by a British employer and were paddywhakery aimed at an Irish staff member in England , you can be sure this would be a very much more angry thread.

If it were beyond the probationary period it might be worth pursuing. However, this early in your only choice in irish law is basically just to walk away from it.
I wouldn't bother with being too accommodating to notice requirements etc as he isn't going to get a reference anyway.

It's a horrible comment to make though and I hope it hasn't put your cousin off Ireland entirely. It's not exactly very welcoming.

carrieb

What an absolute joke! Of course he wasn't at fault! I am also presuming that he wasn't getting paid mileage or getting any sort of expenses? He was basically doing the girl a favour. Gross misconduct can't occur while you're on you're way to work in your own car and your own time surely?!

He waited over an hour the first day!!

Obviously it's easier said then done but he needs to get the hell out of there. They are not nice people to work for.

PCX

BlinkingLights wrote: »

If it were beyond the probationary period it might be worth pursuing. However, this early in your only choice in irish law is basically just to walk away from it.
I wouldn't bother with being too accommodating to notice requirements etc as he isn't going to get a reference anyway.

Contrary to most peoples opinions here I think he does have rights even though its his 1st years employment.

The boss clearly made remarks during a meeting which could be concidered disparaging about the workers nationality. Under employment law that is one of the grounds for discrimination and 1 year rule does not apply.

If your cousin wanted he could tell his boss that he has legal advice that what was said was discriminatory but he would be willing to accept a verbal apology from boss and take the matter no further. If any sanctions are applied he will pursue the matter through proper legal channels.

Make no mention of recording unless boss denys having made the comment - then he is caught in a lie which won't look good for him internally.

Likelihood in that senerio is the boss and/or HR will decide imposing sanction is too great a risk.

That said if it was me I'd be inclined to walk away. Pursuing this would mean working in a toxic work environment. However I might suggest that anything less than a glowing reference would not be acceptable for same reasons.

ZeroThreat

this thread (along with personal experience as over the past 15 years) only reinforces my belief that this country is full of small businesses where the managers/owners have no legal knowledge whatsoever and are making it all up as they go along.

m5ex9oqjawdg2i

What would happen if he rocked into work at 10:30 and said "I thought 9 o'clock was a round about time here in Ireland"... I doubt it would go down well.

Contrary to what the twat manager said, 7:00 AM is still 7:00 AM.

While he doesn't have the rights of somebody working for a year or more, he still has rights.

Shelflife

Personally I wouldnt approach it from the racist pov, it was an inappropriate comment and bizarre to say the least.

If he is disciplined/ or sacked as a result of something that is outside of work id be thinking that even outside of 12 months he would have a strong case for unfair dismissal.

As the others said Id be looking else where as they sound as if they havent a clue what they are up to when it comes to employing people.

BlinkingLights

ZeroThreat wrote: »

this thread (along with personal experience as over the past 15 years) only reinforces my belief that this country is full of small businesses where the managers/owners have no legal knowledge whatsoever and are making it all up as they go along.

Most definitely and I've even experienced it in very large organisations from senior management.

BlinkingLights

Accusing someone of "gross misconduct" when the did no such thing is also something I would be seeing a solicitor about, particularly if it's reputation damaging.

Just saying - it's a mighty big accusation.

ectoraige

Senna wrote: »

No the recording can't be used.
What has happened, has he been dismissed?
Does he feel it was racism?

What makes you think he can't use the recording? Can you refer to legislation, or is that just pulled out of your hat.

My understanding is that it is only illegal to make recordings of conversations where NONE of the people involved are aware that it is being recorded. It is fine once one person involved knows, which obviously is the case here.

kurtainsider

Regarding the recording - I've never heard of undercover RTE reporters being sued for secret recordings.

How about going legal with the racist remark (which I think it certainly was) and have the manager deny it in a sworn statement. Only produce the tape when the manager has dug a nice deep hole for him/herself. This creep deserves no quarter whatsoever.

As an earlier poster said - take a leaf out of Sgt McCabe's book.

Biorra

I'm sorry to say he's screwed by them - it was a set up.
unfortunately the recordings can not be used because they were not legally obtained...but i would seek additional advise on this through citizens advise - he should have been afforded the opportunity to have some form of a rep present! - seek legal advice, admit that the recording was wrong but stree how there was no one to record official minutes or to support him in the meeting.
especially if he is unsure of the workings of our legal fiasco of a system.
my bigger question is why should he have to risk his car insurance to give this person a lift - if something happened, what was to stop the other party from making a claim!! (l was stupidly in a similiar situation once and its not a nice place to be)

Commotion Ocean wrote: »

Warning, long post.

Bit of a background story, he is 19, his mother is Irish and his dad is German (my mam's sister married a German). He grew up in Germany and he is now 18 and arrived in Ireland recently. He wants to spend a year working here and mix with his side of the Irish family.

He is working now for a certain Irish store. He was assigned a task of 'stock checking' which occurs during normal store opening times, although you may voluntarily begin slightly before opening times or finish slightly after store closing, depending on what suits you, as long as you put in nine hours a day over two days. They are not paid extra or given travel expenses, as it says in the contract that you have to commit to working with the sister branch no more than five days a year.

Alongside him, another girl was assigned stocktaking duty, the sister store that they were deployed to is relatively far from the one where they're based normally in terms of public transport (the girl doesn't drive), so he was asked if he'd bring her.

He made it clear that he'd see her at the car park at 07.00 in the morning and make their way to the other store, at work for nine hours after they arrive, then drive back, thus hopefully beating most of the traffic. (She lives in the town of the base store, only walking distance away, he lives a 10-15 minute drive way.

He arrived at the car park a few minutes before 07.00 in the morning and waited for her, 07.15, 07.30, 07.45 .. still nothing, he tried calling her several times but it just kept ringing out and after the fourth or so attempt just went straight to voicemail. At roughly 08.30, she sauntered in and grunted something that resembled 'hey', and she put in her earphones and didn't speak for the journey, no apologies for being late. (Frankly, I think he was mad to wait that long).

Upon arrival, he said that it wasn't cool being late, and that if she wanted to get a lift the next day, she'd have to be on time, as my cousin had arrangements after work that he had committed to and counted on arriving at roughly 07.30 and finishing at 16.30.

He arrived the next day at the car park of the base store and no sign of her at 07.00, so he waited until 07.10, started the car, put it in gear and drove off. Only for her to arrive at 08.10, with no lift.

The next day when he was back at the base store, he was called to the managers office and lambasted for what he had done. He was told that he was going to have a disciplinary meeting later that day with the assistant manager as a witness.

He prepared for this, and brought his phone into the meeting and secretly recorded the meeting. The manager said he committed 'gross misconduct' and that the sister branch was one person down because of his selfishness. She said that in Ireland "7 O'Clock is only roughly and he should have made himself clear and not committed to anything after work" and the he should go to Switzerland to satisfy his 'clock fetish'.

The problem he has is that he recorded the interview without permission or knowledge from the manager or deputy manager and he didn't have a coworker as a witness, nor was he offered an impartial witness as he wasn't made aware of the right to a witness of his choice.

Can he use this recording against the company?

Biorra

I'm sorry to say he's screwed by them - it was a set up.
unfortunately the recordings can not be used because they were not legally obtained...but i would seek additional advise on this through citizens advise - he should have been afforded the opportunity to have some form of a rep present! - seek legal advice, admit that the recording was wrong but stress how there was no one to record official minutes or to support him in the meeting.
especially if he is unsure of the workings of our legal fiasco of a system.
my bigger question is why should he have to risk his car insurance to give this person a lift - if something happened, what was to stop the other party from making a claim!! (l was stupidly in a similar situation once and its not a nice place to be)

Thargor

Biorra wrote: »

I'm sorry to say he's screwed by them - it was a set up.
unfortunately the recordings can not be used because they were not legally obtained.

Can any of the people who constantly make this claim on Boards back it up in any way? It seems like the minute you mention a recording on this forum a few people always jump in to say it's illegal, but when asked to cite the law they just disappear.

AndrewJRenko

Thargor wrote: »

Can any of the people who constantly make this claim on Boards back it up in any way? It seems like the minute you mention a recording on this forum a few people always jump in to say it's illegal, but when asked to cite the law they just disappear.

This senior lawyer supports your view;

http://www.independent.ie/opinion/analysis/oliver-connolly-is-wrong-sgt-mccabe-broke-no-laws-with-his-secret-recording-30073914.html

"McCabe broke no laws with his secret recording"

FreshCoffee

Covert recordings by employees are perfectly legal. It's up to an employment tribunal whether to allow them in evidence:
www.mcdowellpurcell.ie/news/covert-recording-in-the-workplace/

IIRC McCabe (directed by his legal team) had the recordings transcribed to paper and produced the transcriptions as an accurate record of the meetings making it clear they were from recordings. I don't recall if anyone asked for the actual recordings to be produced, perhaps they did but as long as the transcriptions were accurate this would be a non-issue.

FishOnABike

The following news report also indicates a recording by one of the people party to the conversation can be used
http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/courts/farmer-who-told-repo-men-to-strip-and-get-in-with-boar-is-found-guilty-28950217.html
The evidence included 22 minutes recorded on one of the people's mobile phone.

Elmo

So as a late person who hates punctual people you cousin was good and even in Ireland 7am does not mean 8am.

7am means from 6:45 to 7:15 after that your cousin was free to head on on his own.

It was a favour for his colleague nothing to do with work.

When she found her own way in without telling him he was right to assume that she found her own way in the following day.

Tell him to find a new job.

dubrov

As he is there less than a year the employer can let him go with no reason.

The problem here is that they have accused him of gross misconduct without a valid reason. For me that is pretty dodgy ground. I'd run it by a solicitor to get an opinion.

Chuchote

dubrov wrote: »

As he is there less than a year the employer can let him go with no reason.

One reason (of many) to join your union…

screamer

The gross misconduct largely depends on his contract terms. If he was being paid mileage etc then he was working otherwise he wasn't. He was doing a favour and work has no right to get involved. It's obvious the girl hung him out to dry so as not to get in trouble. No good deed goes unpunished eh? Anyways he can pursue this and in the basis that he can be let go for no reason anyways as he's in probation I'd be bloody minded and pursue it. He has nothing to lose. Sound like a horrible company to work for anyways so he's best to move on. Surely being fluent in German there are better opportunities out there too.

bmwguy

Elmo wrote: »

So as a late person who hates punctual people you cousin was good and even in Ireland 7am does not mean 8am.

7am means from 6:45 to 7:15 after that your cousin was free to head on on his own.

It was a favour for his colleague nothing to do with work.

When she found her own way in without telling him he was right to assume that she found her own way in the following day.

Tell him to find a new job.

It only means 7:15 if something uncontrollable happened and a text or phone call was made to explain. How can 7 o clock have a 30 minute spread like that?

If I decided to be early and you decided to be late, I could be left sitting for 30 minutes which is not fair.

Off topic, but people should be where they are meant to be when they are meant to be there.

My job consists mainly of calling to clients during their busy days. I'm always on time. Would never leave anyone waiting for me. Ever. Clients tend to be pretty punctual too. No time for messers.

Chuchote

I'm gobsmacked at this, honestly.

• Worker 1 arrives in time, ready to work, waits an hour and a half for colleague without any message or contact from her.
• Worker 2 sleeps it out and is an hour and a half late the first day, is an hour and ten minutes late the second day.
• Worker 1, not Worker 2, is disciplined.

Something seriously wrong with the work ethic in this company.

dubrov

Or we are not getting the full story

BlinkingLights

This notion that time is flexible in Ireland only applies to social situations like going to a party or the pub.

I've found Irish people as much sticklers for punctuality as anywhere else I've ever worked.

The comment made by the boss is absolutely ridiculous and targeting someone because of their nationality with a mocking stereotype.

I guarantee you that if he arrived into work 30-45 mins late, there would be huge problems.

Basically his colleague didn't get up, missed her lift to work and somehow the boss blames the person giving her a lift ?

1. This is nothing to do with the boss.
2. There's an accusation of "gross misconduct" when, at least according to what was mentioned here, no misconduct happened.
3. The use of a private car for work purposes is usually a violation of the insurance policy. If the boss insists that this is part of the guy's work duties then he needs to compensate him for the mileage and the car insurance upgrade.
4. Hurling what reads as a very nasty comment based on someone's nationality is something covered under the interpretations of the Equal Status Acts and could be investigated by the relevant authorities.

Little CuChulainn

They could have just let him go and that'd be that but instead they decided to fabricate gross misconduct proceedings and go for the nationality angle. If it was me I'd be going for a consult with a solicitor who has experience in employment matters. Might cost a few quid but he'll know where he stands.

jimmycrackcorm

pilly wrote:

If your cousin is still in a probationary period he has little or no rights to be honest. Anyway, sounds like a horrible place to work, he will find somewhere else handy enough at the moment.

Even in a probationary period you still have some rights and you can only be let go of the employer follows the rules.

If it did come to that I'd be trekking the employer about the recording and especially the references they made about nationality.

I'd also tell the manager I hope he enjoys his YouTube stardom.

pilly

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

Even in a probationary period you still have some rights and you can only be let go of the employer follows the rules.

If it did come to that I'd be trekking the employer about the recording and especially the references they made about nationality.

I'd also tell the manager I hope he enjoys his YouTube stardom.

There are some rights and I'm not saying in any way whatsoever what the employer did was right, the manager is an arsehole obviously.

But in practical terms, in my experience, anyone going to see an employment law solicitor without a years service will be told that it's not worth pursuing.

What could he possibly get out of it?