A BER assement in 15 minutes?

cormie

Hey folks,
My friend got a BER assessment done on their 3 bed semi detached this evening and was very surprised when the assessor came to tell them they were finished after only 15 minutes.

I looked it up found this: http://www.seai.ie/Your_Building/BER/BER_FAQ/FAQ_BER/General/How-long-does-a-BER-Assessment-of-a-house-typically-take-to-complete-.html

So 15 minutes is a long way from the 2 hours minimum they mention here!

Is it possible to get a proper assessment done in 15 minutes? I mean physically and scientifically possible?

What would you suggest? They are listed on the SEAI site so thought they'd be somewhat legit, but 15 minutes seems way too quick!

Any feedback would be great

BryanF

Perhaps this 3 bed semi is in an estate full of the same type 3 bed houses and it not the assessors first ?

assuming lots of photos were taken

When I used to do these I wasn't doing them regularly enough and would take me at least an hour on striaght forward dwelling.

rodzer

Are you sure it wasn't just the initial survey that took 15 mins? The assessor would then have to process the data back in the office which could take 2 hours or more.

cormie

Thanks for the replies folks. I don't know how a BER assessment works at all, all I know is they were only in the house for about 15 minutes and they said they'd have the report back in about a week?

Also, they didn't even go up to the attic even though my friend offered a ladder to get up there..

AlanG

i have had a few done and the site visit is usually about 20-30 mins max. What rating you get is pretty random and a lot of work that makes the house much warmer has no impact on the rating such as insulating a couple of cold walls or upgrading some windows. In my experience BER ratings have had very little correlation with how cold a property is. The assessors know this and so do most owners so it is all about getting the boxes ticket as cheaply and quick as possible.

cormie

So you're basically saying the whole BER thing is a joke, that assessors don't test properly in general and people know this so everyone just accepts it?

sydthebeat

cormie wrote: »

Thanks for the replies folks. I don't know how a BER assessment works at all, all I know is they were only in the house for about 15 minutes and they said they'd have the report back in about a week?

Also, they didn't even go up to the attic even though my friend offered a ladder to get up there..

not going into the attic is wrong anyway....

even if the assessor is familiar with those houses, the client may have added more insulation to the attic so it HAS to be inspected. The assessor also doesnt know if the attic hatch is draught excluded or not without looking at it.

In my experience (750 published certs) its not possible do a proper BER assessment in 15 mins... even if its a 3 bed semi.

However that is reflected in my price, i usually charge 250 + VAT and i know that there are assessors out there who will do them for half this.

Can i suggest this assessor charged a very low price and therefore was in and out in an instant??

sydthebeat

cormie wrote: »

So you're basically saying the whole BER thing is a joke, that assessors don't test properly in general and people know this so everyone just accepts it?

I dont agree.

like ever professional service there are good assessors and bad assessors. As i said above its usually obvious in their prices which category they fall into.

The big misconception about BERs is what they actually are and what they aer used for.

They are NOT an analytical reflection of how specific people use their specific home. They are not an analysis report of how good or bad the workmanship on an individual build is. There are specific test out there for this ie air tightness tests, thermal imaging etc.

They are simply a measurement system which compares like with like, irregardless of how people use the house....

Pkiernan

Cowboy assessor who should be reported to SEAI.
But I doubt your friend will do anything about it.

PMBC

The BER job was widely seen as a money earner and, from people who did the course, a lot of attendees had no knowledge of environmental physics. A few people I know wont carry out assessments as they are being told that a n other will do it for 100 euros. You pay peanuts etc.
Perhaps I am being cynical or just mislead.

rodzer

I agree 15 mins is very tight for a 3-bed semi survey. He should have looked at the attic access hatch as it's very important from a draughtproofing point of view. Also he can't know what insulation is up there without guessing. If he skipped those important issues, he's bound to have overlooked others. Maybe his fee reflects his approach, as others have already said.
I don't agree that the whole BER system is a joke either.

cormie

@sydthebeat, they charged €125 and gave no receipt, but maybe that will come with the report. They tried charge €145 but my friend reminded them it was €125 for a 2/3 bed on their website.

So what do you reckon you are doing for the €250+ VAT that they aren't doing for the €125 and why would someone want to pay more for a proper assessment?


The reason my friend is getting the assessment done is they have just got a new boiler installed and to get the SEAI grant back of around €700, they need to have a BER assessment done.

Of course I know, with any professional service, you get what you pay for, there's countless "Man with a van" lads without the proper insurance, experience, reliability etc undercutting me, but with something like the SEAI BER Assessment, I would have though there'd be pretty strict rules and methods to follow and since they are issuing certs, a lot less rogue traders?

cormie

Just to note, he's based over 15km from where the house is, so very unlikely he's been in any of the other ones on the street and yep, anything could have been done with insulation etc in the attic that he doesn't know about. I've heard having good insulation in the attic makes a huge impact on heat retention in the house?

Pkiernan

cormie wrote: »

Just to note, he's based over 15km from where the house is, so very unlikely he's been in any of the other ones on the street and yep, anything could have been done with insulation etc in the attic that he doesn't know about. I've heard having good insulation in the attic makes a huge impact on heat retention in the house?

Report this to the SEAI.
If he has done an effective job, he'll have no problem defending himself.
Also, let me know where he got his X-RAY specs from. I'd love a pair.

sydthebeat

cormie wrote: »

So what do you reckon you are doing for the €250+ VAT that they aren't doing for the €125 and why would someone want to pay more for a proper assessment?

paying VAT, income tax, office rent, CPD course etc

but in general, actually doing the assessment right....

looksee

In order to get a BER cert I had to contact someone who had previously done a pumped wall filling job on the house and get a cert/letter to say it had been done. The attic was inspected. The double glazing was established to be 2 separate jobs (which was true) with one lot of dg being of better quality than the other. It was at the more expensive end of the scale of pricing, but it was a great help to know what work needed to be done and the house is now very comfortable and is not expensive to heat.

cormie

The income tax and CPD course would be costs other assessors on the SEAI site should have also. I guess it can't be that cash heavy if the assessor needs to issue a report on each payment?

So the question on doing it right, how would you convince somebody that you are going to do a better job than someone charging half price say?

And for your typical home owner, what advantage does a properly done cert have over a half arsed one for them? I understand if you were looking to buy a house, it'd be worth getting it done properly to find out exactly how what you might expect in terms of heat retention etc, but for people who own the house already, or who are selling, what would be the advantage?

sydthebeat

cormie wrote: »

The income tax and CPD course would be costs other assessors on the SEAI site should have also. I guess it can't be that cash heavy if the assessor needs to issue a report on each payment?

you also have to take into account 3 or 4 audits per year taking a min of 4 hrs each..... and your right they are costs that "should be" there.. but may not always.

cormie wrote: »

So the question on doing it right, how would you convince somebody that you are going to do a better job than someone charging half price say?

im lucky enough that im so busy that i dont have to convince anyone. Its an add on service to my day to day work, and if people are just looking for the lowest price i have no problem telling them they can get it cheaper elsewhere.

cormie wrote: »

And for your typical home owner, what advantage does a properly done cert have over a half arsed one for them? I understand if you were looking to buy a house, it'd be worth getting it done properly to find out exactly how what you might expect in terms of heat retention etc, but for people who own the house already, or who are selling, what would be the advantage?

other then running the risk of the assessment being audited and the rating changed to a lower one and the cert revoked......

or oppositely.... a 'full' assessment may lead to a higher rating.

rodzer

Long story short. I did a BER recently on an existing house that had just been extended. My rating was much worse than a BER that had been done previously (by another assessor) before the extension was built. I had a job convincing my client that I had done everything by the book. I'd have hundreds of BERs done to date. He thought that the rating should have much improved due to the new extension been well insulated etc. Surprise surprise I got audited by SEAI. They found my BER should have been even worse (due to thermal mass category (which I still don't agree with by the way)). So, what was the other assessor playing at, you would have to ask.

cormie

Great you don't have to convince people, that's the best way to be But how would someone like you who does it by the book and to the highest standard possible, but who wants as many jobs as they can as this is their only earner, convince somebody it's wiser to go with them than with someone half the price?

I was thinking that alright, that somebody could do a quick job and give you a higher rating than you actually should be getting and an audit could either push it up or down.

I'm still trying to see what practical advantages a BER has for a home owner, other than if they are trying to sell the property and it has a good rating, that they can use this to their advantage in the asking price, or maybe if the rating is lower, they are eligible for more grant money for works to be done or something? So these are two opposites, but other than this, why would an accurate BER be important for a home owner?

rodzer

Look, it comes down to this. There is only 1 type of BER & that's the correctly calculated one. In fairness to SEAI they have tried to remove the 'quick job' assessors and I believe most of them are long gone from the register.
An accurate BER is important for the homeowner as they can rely on it to know how the energy rating of the property compares with others.
I'm also lucky in that I don't rely solely on domestic BERs for my income.

Boaty

The lads that were charging nearly a 1000 euro when bers first came out were cowboys as well.

BryanF

Boaty wrote: »

The lads that were charging nearly a 1000 euro when bers first came out were cowboys as well.

What dream did this happen in?

Boaty

BryanF wrote: »

What dream did this happen in?

I was told first hand by a structural engineer. Did you not see how I specified when bers first came out ie, became mandatory when selling a house.

How you can say that people weren't charging 1000 euro is beyond me.

BryanF

Boaty wrote: »

I was told first hand by a structural engineer. Did you not see how I specified when bers first came out ie, became mandatory when selling a house.

How you can say that people weren't charging 1000 euro is beyond me.

Convince me?

Calahonda52

cormie wrote: »

Great you don't have to convince people, that's the best way to be But how would someone like you who does it by the book and to the highest standard possible, but who wants as many jobs as they can as this is their only earner, convince somebody it's wiser to go with them than with someone half the price?

I was thinking that alright, that somebody could do a quick job and give you a higher rating than you actually should be getting and an audit could either push it up or down.

I'm still trying to see what practical advantages a BER has for a home owner, other than if they are trying to sell the property and it has a good rating, that they can use this to their advantage in the asking price, or maybe if the rating is lower, they are eligible for more grant money for works to be done or something? So these are two opposites, but other than this, why would an accurate BER be important for a home owner?

Seems to me Op that you are going to flake this to death as an armchair warrior by stroking some ephemeral cognitive and endogenous electrical fields, as opposed to actually add any value.

1: A BER is a legal requirement for selling or renting a property.
2: I don't believe it has, as yet, any material impact on asking prices due to the state of the market.
3: There is no linkage to grant money: if the report is written up well,and relates specifically to the property, then it can help home owner with pointers to some energy saving projects.

4: The guys who have posted here who do them properly do so because they are professionals who do their all their work in this way.

As for the 15 minute onsite bit, there are guys doing work for schools who don't even turn up: they just phone up and ask a few questions of the caretaker about the school, having looked at it on G-Maps.

What is amazing about this is that they share it as a business strategy.

rodzer

As for the fee mentioned of 1000euros, as far as I remember around 2008 the RIAI we're expecting a fee of 300+vat for their members to do a domestic BER assessment. When they realised the market rate was half this, they pulled away from it. The only people making 1000euros plus we're the course providers. You can get 1000euros plus for a non domestic BER assessment but that's a different animal altogether.

tradesman

I remember when BER's first came out it was suggested to me to go on the course. When I looked into it further I came across a website which stated stated that there were already 3 times the amount of assessors needed yet courses were still being offered! (money making springs to mind)

cormie

Thanks again for the replies.

I don't know what the armchair warrior comment is about? I was only asking, for a home owner who has no intention to rent or sell and if it has no bearing on eligibility for grants, what practical purpose would it serve and why would they spent more on something they don't necessarily need to be done accurately.

If they want an accurate report on what energy saving and money saving projects should be done and prioritised in order to save them money in the long run, then this could make it worth spending the extra for sure

sydthebeat

cormie wrote: »

Thanks again for the replies.

I don't know what the armchair warrior comment is about? I was only asking, for a home owner who has no intention to rent or sell and if it has no bearing on eligibility for grants, what practical purpose would it serve and why would they spent more on something they don't necessarily need to be done accurately.

If they want an accurate report on what energy saving and money saving projects should be done and prioritised in order to save them money in the long run, then this could make it worth spending the extra for sure

it is only required at 1. the point of sale or rent... or 2. when applying for a grant

so to answer your question...
1. its of no 'use' to the homeowner at all, its of use to the prospective purchaser / renter. This is the route the government decided to go with this, rightly or wrongly. Thats the main reason why we have have "bargin basement BERs" in my opinion.

2. its of obvious use.

cormie

Thanks again, I'll be interested in seeing the report as I have my own ideas on what needs to be done in the house, but if they didn't even go to the attic, who knows what they'll be suggesting. Also, there was insulation board put on a bathroom wall to hide pipework when my friend bought it as a bathroom renovation was priority, but none of the other walls in the house were insulated, so I'm wondering if they'd even know any of this.