Road Cycling Protocol

PGE1970

I'd be obliged to hear people's views on what may be a well covered topic already (apologies mods if so).

I am both a motorist and a cyclist. I cycle for exercise and usually do between 25kms to 35kms on a weekday (3/4 times per week) and a good spin at the weekend.

Last weekend, myself and my son were travelling home from his football match; a Sunday morning at about 11.30am. The road is the old Dublin-Belfast road so it reasonable busy.

We met a group, I assume from a local cycling club given their clothing, out for a spin. They were 4/5 abreast on the road, taking up the full left hand lane (it is single carriage). I approached and slowed but they didn't make an attempt to reduce to, for example, 2 abreast to allow me pass. They kept on going for about another 500m until it was safe for me to pass which I did without issue.

I entered the local village and, a few minutes later, as I came out of the newsagents, they passed me again, still 5 or so abreast having a chat. There were a few cars behind them at this stage!

They turned off the main road and I didn't have to pass them again.

My question - is there a protocol for groups travelling on a main road? As I expect that they are from a local group, I would have thought that they would be more aware of safety than a "few lads" out on their own?

Just wondering what people think!?

magicbastarder

not so much protocol as the law - two abreast is legal, three abreast is legal if an overtaking manouevre is underway. anything above those situations is not legal.

godtabh

magicbastarder wrote: »

not so much protocol as the law - two abreast is legal, three abreast is legal if an overtaking manouevre is underway. anything above those situations is not legal.

Out of interest which law?

I always thought it was good manners for two abreast and where roads narrow single file.

07Lapierre

"29 Driving two abreast

29.—(1) A pedal cyclist shall not, save when overtaking other pedal cyclists (and then only if to do so will not endanger other traffic or pedestrians) drive a pedal cycle on a roadway in such a manner as to result in more than two pedal cycles driving abreast."

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1964/si/294/made/en/print

Eamonnator

On my Sunday group spin, if we have an uneven number of riders, when I'm at the back, I often ride behind, but between the two riders in front of me.
I'm sure, if a car is behind me, it looks like we're cycling three abreast.
I don't think, I've ever seen a club group spin cycling four or five abreast.

godtabh

07Lapierre wrote: »

"29 Driving two abreast

29.—(1) A pedal cyclist shall not, save when overtaking other pedal cyclists (and then only if to do so will not endanger other traffic or pedestrians) drive a pedal cycle on a roadway in such a manner as to result in more than two pedal cycles driving abreast."

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1964/si/294/made/en/print

You read something new every day

magicbastarder

Weepsie wrote: »

I'm always a bit suspicious when i see a claim of 4 or 5 abreast. Unless they were elbow to elbow, they'd surely be in the opposite lane if any more than 3.

Yep, allow a metre for each cyclist and you have a lane 16 foot wide.
Just to mix imperial and metric for some reason.

Miklos

In all my years of cycling the only place I've ever seen cyclists five abreast is on Eurosport.

tomasrojo

Weepsie wrote: »

Some also seem to think 5 banks of 2 is 5 abreast, or how many rows of cyclists is the number.

This never occurred to me, but it seems very likely.

People often confidently use words they don't understand, because they don't know they don't know.

ninoon

In my experience most groups keep to the two abreast rule with occasional overlaps. Four or five abreast is simply wrong.

Roadtoad

Next Sunday the peleton leaving Naas toward Blessington will be 4 abreast in many places (Tour de Foothills).
Cyclists often consider themselves/ourselves to be a single peleton rather than a group of individuals at roundabouts, and do not concede right of way to cars already on the roundabout.

07Lapierre

Weepsie wrote: »

I'm always a bit suspicious when i see a claim of 4 or 5 abreast. Unless they were elbow to elbow, they'd surely be in the opposite lane if any more than 3.

Some also seem to think 5 banks of 2 is 5 abreast, or how many rows of cyclists is the number. Though i don't think that's what's meant here and I've no reason to not believe but does seem strange.

Maybe they were being inconsiderate, or wrongly treating those 500m as a bunch race to the village

It depends on the angle at which your looking and how "neat" the cyclists are riding. From the drivers seat of a car, a group of cyclists cycling two abreast can look like they are 3 or 4 abreast if they are not cycling directly behind each other.

07Lapierre

godtabh wrote: »

You read something new every day

New? It's from 1964!

I love Sean nos

PGE1970 wrote: »

They were 4/5 abreast on the road

No they weren't.

You can close the thread now.

godtabh

07Lapierre wrote: »

New? It's from 1964!

New to me.

ted1

I have never seen more than 3 a breast.

What I do find funny is that Monday you'd day cars will easily sit behind was you other doing 10kmh on a raid with a limit of 100 yet if they are behind a bike they have no patience

I love Sean nos

ted1 wrote: »

on a raid

That's a new level of road lawlessness.

07Lapierre

What's the verdict on this photo? There untidy, but cycling two abreast

http://l7.alamy.com/zooms/2e7c142feeb84ed0a205f82fe496549c/a-group-of-cyclists-on-a-road-in-northern-ireland-eajhgm.jpg

Eamonnator

07Lapierre wrote: »

What's the verdict on this photo? There untidy, but cycling two abreast

http://l7.alamy.com/zooms/2e7c142feeb84ed0a205f82fe496549c/a-group-of-cyclists-on-a-road-in-northern-ireland-eajhgm.jpg

One has knee length socks over tights.
Verdict: Tragic.

ted1

5 groups of 2 , far over maybe avoiding a bad part of the road that's out of the Frane

Mercian Pro

If that was our club (and we regularly cycle NCD), there would have been a call a lot earlier to tidy up. Two abreast is the rule and the law.

If you look over on http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056227577&page=330 you'll see a photo of what could be six abreast to a driver approaching the group or more likely two by two with an offset when seen from within the group. The offset is to ensure you don't run into the cyclist in front if they have to slow suddenly.

I love Sean nos

Why are people posting pics? The OP should be the one posting the pics.

07Lapierre

I love Sean nos wrote: »

Why are people posting pics? The OP should be the one posting the pics.

Probably because its illegal to take photo's while driving!
(Unless you have a dashcam)

PGE1970

I think the photo in post #19 is helpful and, on reflection, having seen that photo and reading the other comments, I accept that it is highly unlikely that it was 4/5 abreast. Apologies for the misrepresentation and in particular to post #15 who seemed somewhat offended!

I suppose that I was trying to raise the issue of group cycling and the fact that this group seemed to take over a full lane of what is a reasonably busy road.

As a cyclist myself, almost always on my own, it's interesting to glean other poster's opinions on the subject and thanks to all who've replied.

I love Sean nos

07Lapierre wrote: »

Probably because its illegal to take photo's while driving!
(Unless you have a dashcam)

Or if you have a passenger...

PGE1970 wrote: »

...myself and my son...

07Lapierre

ted1 wrote: »

5 groups of 2 , far over maybe avoiding a bad part of the road that's out of the Frane

10/10 for observation! (Took me a while to spot the 10th rider!)

I love Sean nos

PGE1970 wrote: »

post #15 who seemed somewhat offended!

Sorry, I might have come on a bit strong. This is a claim that we've seen many times in this forum and others, yet there's never a photo and none of the regulars on here have ever seen it. Even club race fields are generally 2 x 2. The only time I've seen a group spread out as claimed is in a closed road event.

As for taking up the full lane, so what? A single person on a bike can take up a lane.

Macy0161

Well I'd also be of the thinking that the 5 a breast stuff that keeps getting trotted out (in general, not necessarily aimed at the OP) is untidy two a breast groups being viewed from the rear. Not really sure where that leaves the motorists eyesight that they can't judge the depth of a group - how can you contemplate an overtake if you don't know how long a group is?

Now aimed at the OP - really don't see the issue with taking the full side of the road though. It's either safe to overtake, which means crossing the centre line or it isn't?

Wishbone Ash

PGE1970 wrote: »

.....I suppose that I was trying to raise the issue of group cycling and the fact that this group seemed to take over a full lane of what is a reasonably busy road....

There's nothing wrong with taking the full lane if necessary especially on a busy road. It's much safer for any overtaking vehicle to move to the other lane when safe to overtake. If you were behind a tractor or other slow moving vehicles you'd have to move to the other lane to overtake so what's the difference?

The hard shoulder is badly broken up in places along that stretch. You say that all your cycling is solo. When solo you have a clear view of the road/surface ahead. When in a group on a dodgy surface, there is a tendency for each rider not to be directly aligned with the rider in front to see a bit ahead. Even though 2 abreast it gives the impression that it's more. Also, the 2 abreast rule doesn't state the distance so technically riders could be 3 metres apart and still be 'legal'.

(I should declare that I'm out regularly with that group and it is fairly well controlled.)

07Lapierre

The OP mentions a village. If the village in question is Balrothery, that section of the Dublin/Belfast road is lethal for cyclists. I would argue that a group of cyclists should never cycle in the hard shoulder on that section of road, due to the "traffic calming islands" in the centre of the road!

It's vital for a group of cyclists to take control of the lane approaching and while passing these islands to prevent cars from attempting a dangerous overtake manover. I hate that section of road!

Edit: come to think of it, you can't cycle in the hard shoulder at Balrothery, because there are concrete islands in the hard shoulder as well.

https://goo.gl/maps/wCqVuQ7Jefu

PGE1970

Just to be clear, I'm not trying to pick out any specific group and I fully respect everyone's right to use the road and, especially cyclists, in a safe environment. We have seen too many tragic accidents involving cyclists.

My original post was to gauge other cyclists opinions on the matter generally and certainly not to offend anyone.

tomasrojo

PGE1970 wrote: »

My original post was to gauge other cyclists opinions on the matter generally and certainly not to offend anyone.

It has turned out, so far, to be one of the more enlightening threads on a benighted subject, for me at least. I don't do group cycling, so I've nothing to contribute, but the point about an untidy two-abreast looking like four- or five-abreast explains an awful lot.

Wishbone Ash

PGE1970 wrote: »

.... We have seen too many tragic accidents involving cyclists.....

Indeed - but very rarely involving cycling groups. The incident in Co Donegal a few months back is the only one that I can recall.

07Lapierre

THIS is why cyclists take the lane when there are "traffic calming islands"!

https://youtu.be/FX60qnGNcI8

Gavinz

PGE1970 wrote: »

My original post was to gauge other cyclists opinions on the matter generally and certainly not to offend anyone.

Good luck with that.

Even if they aren't offended, they'll pretend.

Macy0161

tomasrojo wrote:

It has turned out, so far, to be one of the more enlightening threads on a benighted subject, for me at least. I don't do group cycling, so I've nothing to contribute, but the point about an untidy two-abreast looking like four- or five-abreast explains an awful lot.

Penny dropped for me on the whole "5 a breast" crap that litters comments sections and text messages of anything cycling related a couple of weeks back when me and a pal came up behind a club spin that was all over the shop in terms of their lines.

I live on one of the main weekend cycling routes out of Dublin, and really I'd have to question the size of some of the groups I see (but maybe there's logic to why they don't split into two or three smaller groups?), and the size can't help maintain two clear lines.

It's ultimately still a give out about cyclists not allowing a close/ dangerous passes though, or making excuses for the same.

Gavinz wrote: »

Even if they aren't offended, they'll pretend.

Offended or explaining why a cyclist(s) may do certain things? Rather than offended I see it as more an education opportunity to be honest.

mamax

Lets face it motorists in ireland are impatient dicks, only a minority have any patience and consideration for "other road users" not just cyclists.
Anyone that has cycled in portugal, spain or france etc will tell you we here in ireland have a lot to learn about respecting other road users.
It's rush rush everywhere and texting and on facebook while driving is widespread, (uk gone to 6 penalty points for this btw, let's hope we follow)
To the OP, I've never in over 30 years cycling on the road seen a group more than 3 abreast, that would not be safe so I'd say you are mistaken.
Recently while cycling with a friend 2 abreast an artic tried to overtake us on a white line going round a bend, crazy driving.
When your behind some cyclists ask yourself what would you do in their situation, would you not hold your position on the road for "your own safety" I'll bet you would, we need to be careful as motorists remember the car will always survive in a collision with a bicycle !!!

jon1981

Regular cyclist in a club.

* We never cycle more than 2 abreast unless 1 cyclist has to come from the back to the front to signal something that can't be passed up
* Cannot remember seeing 4/5 abreast ever


However, a staggered and undisciplined group may appear as more than 2 abreast... Clubs need to sort this sh*t out...some clubs have appalling road discipline.

I recently got a rear facing camera ... it's interesting looking back at the footage and seeing the reaction of drivers that get held up for mere seconds...some serious stress management needed for these people.

Lumen

I was out last Sunday morning around Enniskerry and there were a few groups taking the full lane with straggly two abreast, so I had to pass in the opposite lane.

Totally inept cycling. Tidy it up!

magicbastarder

Lumen wrote: »

so I had to pass in the opposite lane.

isn't this the lane you're *meant* to pass in?
maybe i'm missing the joke.

Lumen

magicbastarder wrote: »

isn't this the lane you're *meant* to pass in?
maybe i'm missing the joke.

What assumptions have you made?

ericzeking

I came a cross a group who looked like beginners the other week, they were all over the road and I latched on to the back prior to riding through, the lads at the back called on a car at a totally unsafe time to overtake- there was not enough road space ahead and the group of about 10 or 12 was taking up enough road for 30 bike riders. They should have been more concerned with tidying up their riding than with whether or not the car could get past.

Riding in a group is a skill that must me learned, beginners should learn to ride in a group in small groups of 3 or 4 before joining larger groups.

The types of scenarios being discussed here make the roads more dangerous for all of us as they just serve to fuel driver frustration.

magicbastarder

Lumen wrote: »

What assumptions have you made?

that you were driving?

Lumen

magicbastarder wrote: »

that you were driving?

:pac:

Right. Interesting, isn't it? I was cycling.

On my bicycle I strongly feel that should be able to overtake riders two abreast in the same lane.

In my car, I'll happily wait for the opportunity to pass on the opposite side.

This is because being hit by a car hurts much more, although TBH the wobbly Freds* I was passing might have been spooked by me passing closer than 1.5m, fallen off and sustained a fatal head injury. They clearly weren't comfortable cycling close to each other.

(* I am a non-wobbly Fred, although I have also been known to fall off for no good reason )

PGE1970

mamax wrote: »

Lets face it motorists in ireland are impatient dicks, only a minority have any patience and consideration for "other road users" not just cyclists.
Anyone that has cycled in portugal, spain or france etc will tell you we here in ireland have a lot to learn about respecting other road users.
It's rush rush everywhere and texting and on facebook while driving is widespread, (uk gone to 6 penalty points for this btw, let's hope we follow)
To the OP, I've never in over 30 years cycling on the road seen a group more than 3 abreast, that would not be safe so I'd say you are mistaken.
Recently while cycling with a friend 2 abreast an artic tried to overtake us on a white line going round a bend, crazy driving.
When your behind some cyclists ask yourself what would you do in their situation, would you not hold your position on the road for "your own safety" I'll bet you would, we need to be careful as motorists remember the car will always survive in a collision with a bicycle !!!

To be fair, I've admitted that I accept that it wasn't 4/5 abreast. For the record, I sat safely behind the group until it was safe, for all parties, for me to pass and I did so safely.

I think that various other posters have clarified that a group less well organised riding 2 abreast can appear to be riding more than 2 abreast and I fully accept that this was probably the case in my instance.

It is interesting to see other people with examples of groups who could perhaps be better organised. I'm mindful and respectful of all users of the road as I am cyclist on one day and a motorist the next. I also have an 18 year old daughter that is learning to drive and I emphasise to her that the habit of being aware of other road users is an important as concentrating on her own driving manoevres as they go hand in hand.

With respect, I'm not sure that I can clarify my original point much further?

Lumen

PGE1970 wrote: »

With respect, I'm not sure that I can clarify my original point much further?

I think you're assuming a level of reading comprehension which is not realistic on a Friday.

blackvalley

PGE1970 wrote: »

My question - is there a protocol for groups travelling on a main road?

The answer to your question is that yes there is a protocol for groups travelling on a main or any other road. This is a protocol that is observed by any group who are experienced , organised and respectful towards all road users.
Basically the group should ride two abreast and as close to the left hand side of the road as it is safe to do so . The two riders on the front are in charge of pace setting and warning everyone behind of any dangers ahead ie potholes , parked cars loose dogs etc. They are also responsible for warning the group of any approaching traffic with a call of " car down " . they may also call " single out " if the group needs to drop into single file or warn approaching drivers of their presence by an up and down open hand motion.
The two riders on the back have an equally important roll as they observe traffic approaching from behind and will call out " car up " or " car up single out " if conditions warrant it . From their vantage point they can also observe the progress of the group and may call " pick it up " to increase the overall pace or " ease up " to slow the group down .
I think that over the last few years the popularity of cycling have led to the formation of many new groups and clubs who perhaps don't have the elder lemons involved to coach basic cycling etiquette . It is very easy to spot these groups as they are often scattered all over the road putting themselves and everyone else in danger . It is not their fault however as they may never have been coached in group cycling and perhaps the onus should be put on bike shops to suggest basis coaching for anyone joining a club .
Bigger " Sportif " events tend to be a law unto themselves where shouts of " car up , car down etc " can mean anything in any direction.
KEEP HER LIT

PGE1970

blackvalley wrote: »

The answer to your question is that yes there is a protocol for groups travelling on a main or any other road. This is a protocol that is observed by any group who are experienced , organised and respectful towards all road users.
Basically the group should ride two abreast and as close to the left hand side of the road as it is safe to do so . The two riders on the front are in charge of pace setting and warning everyone behind of any dangers ahead ie potholes , parked cars loose dogs etc. They are also responsible for warning the group of any approaching traffic with a call of " car down " . they may also call " single out " if the group needs to drop into single file or warn approaching drivers of their presence by an up and down open hand motion.
The two riders on the back have an equally important roll as they observe traffic approaching from behind and will call out " car up " or " car up single out " if conditions warrant it . From their vantage point they can also observe the progress of the group and may call " pick it up " to increase the overall pace or " ease up " to slow the group down .
I think that over the last few years the popularity of cycling have led to the formation of many new groups and clubs who perhaps don't have the elder lemons involved to coach basic cycling etiquette . It is very easy to spot these groups as they are often scattered all over the road putting themselves and everyone else in danger . It is not their fault however as they may never have been coached in group cycling and perhaps the onus should be put on bike shops to suggest basis coaching for anyone joining a club .
Bigger " Sportif " events tend to be a law unto themselves where shouts of " car up , car down etc " can mean anything in any direction.
KEEP HER LIT

Excellent post Blackvalley. Very informative and very helpful. Many thanks!!

Chuchote

ericzeking wrote: »

the lads at the back called on a car at a totally unsafe time to overtake-

A friend who has lived in the Dublin Mountains for 40 years complains about this. She hangs back behind cyclists and club groups when she knows a dangerous turn is coming, and she says they often turn around and violently wave at her to come-on, come-on, come-fecking-on - she ignores this, knowing the road well, but it annoys the heck out of her.

Wishbone Ash

Chuchote wrote: »

A friend who has lived in the Dublin Mountains for 40 years complains about this. She hangs back behind cyclists and club groups when she knows a dangerous turn is coming, and she says they often turn around and violently wave at her to come-on, come-on, come-fecking-on - she ignores this, knowing the road well, but it annoys the heck out of her.

Totally agree - very annoying and should be made illegal IMO. When I'm driving I'll decide when it is safe to overtake.

(There's someone in my own club who does that regularly despite being requested to refrain from doing so).

blackvalley

Wishbone Ash wrote: »

Totally agree - very annoying and should be made illegal IMO. When I'm driving I'll decide when it is safe to overtake.

Gawdalmighty !. Make it illegal:eek: ?.And who is going to enforce this new rule you wish to introduce . You have already provided an answer to the problem when you state " When I'm driving I'll decide when it is safe to overtake"
Why is it that so many wish to make so much illegal when simple common sence is all that is required.