Leapcard not taking Non-Irish Bank accounts for Auto Top Up Feature by Direct Debit

Yggr of Asgard

Breaking this out from an N26 thread for further discussions.

Summary:
Leapcard is refusing to accept non-irish bank account for direct debits as part of the auto top up feature with several excuses despite SEPA now being in force since August 2014.

What has been tried:

• Complaints to the National Transport Authority (unsuccessfully see below)
  
  
• Complaints to The Competition and Consumer Protection Commission (CCPC) which takes the complaint but does not deal with individual complaints nor will it provide an outcome back to individual
  
  
• Complaints via SOLVIT (an EU forum that deals with breaches of EU rules by Government bodies) currently waiting for the Irish Department of Enterprise to provide feedback to the relevant authorities. The French & German SOLVIT services are involved but the Irish SOLVIT so far has not responded despite being out of the agreed time frames.
  
  
• Complaints to the responsible Directorate in the European Commission (Financial Stability, Financial Services and Capital Markets Union)

Latest Response from NTA about this (to jasongoodbody):

Many thanks for your query and apologies for the delay in response. I wanted to ensure that NTA provided a comprehensive answer to your query.

It is the case that while we at all times endeavour to comply with the rules governing the areas in which we operate, there are significant technical challenges that are preventing NTA from complying with specific SEPA rules at this time. I also wish to put this answer in the context of our obligations under the legislation which governs the NTA, and in particular one of our core objectives which is to provide value for money. With this in mind when you had previously contacted us regarding the issue of allowing Direct Debits from non Irish Bank accounts, the matter had been at that point under investigation and consideration for some time and we had hoped to have a more positive answer.

Unfortunately, following consultation with our solution architects and providers we discovered that, as our back-office systems were built some time ago (prior to SEPA), there are existing technical restrictions in our systems which cannot easily accommodate IBANs. Although we have been able to implement a workaround for Irish bank account numbers (by performing a reverse lookup and conversion process on the inputs and outputs) to allow Irish account holders to use their IBAN to sign up for Auto top-up, we cannot use this process for non-Irish IBANs. As a result we have investigated alternative solutions as well as separately investigated converting the entire system to use IBANs. However, to date we have not received a proposal which could satisfy technical, security and financial integrity prerequisites and provide value for money. In fact, the cost for implementing partial solutions was so high as to be prohibitive. Consequently our focus has turned to a complete end-to-end solution. This would require a complete system rebuild and an extensive testing phase, the total cost of which would be substantial. When viewed in light of the very small percentage of customers that it would service, we do not believe that it would be a prudent use of taxpayers’ funds as a standalone development.

Instead as an alternative to auto top-up NTA is providing a mobile phone solution (the Leap Top-Up app) which can be accessed anywhere in the world and can instantaneously reload a Leap card as well as display the recent travel history, balance and ticket information. It works with any Android (v4.4 or later) phone that has NFC. NTA is also hopeful that Apple will allow access to the NFC chip on the latest iPhones in the near future. The growth in use that we have experienced on the Leap top-up app since its launch in January 2016 clearly indicates that there is a greater appetite for an on-demand reload capability that far exceeds the demand for auto top-up. Therefore it is likely that NTA will focus its limited resources in this area until such time as we have the funding to develop the next iteration of the Leap card systems to include the SEPA requirements (likely in conjunction with a number of other enhancements).

To be clear, it is our intention that a new iteration of our back office systems will comply with the SEPA requirements. However, in the absence of confirmed funding NTA cannot define any timeline for this to complete. I appreciate that this is not the answer that you are looking for, but it is simply the case that since we have an alternative available (the Leap Top-Up app), and given the significant technical challenges necessitating a substantial financial investment, whilst there is limited demand for such auto top-ups, we have to make the most efficient use of our available resources.

Latest response and Position of the CCPC is that they don't deal with individual complaints and they usual send this mail when complaints are logged:

Thank you for your email to the Competition and Consumer Protection Commission (CCPC) in relation to topping up your leap card via direct debit.

The aim of the Single European Payments Area (SEPA) is to standardise the transfer of electronic payments, for example direct debits and standing orders, across Europe. This means that the cost and process for making payments to any SEPA country is the same as making a payment in Ireland.

The CCPC is the competent authority for the purposes of enforcing Article 9(1) and 9(2) of the SEPA Regulations. Article 9(2) provides that a trader accepting a credit transfer or using a direct debit to collect funds from a consumer holding a payment account located within the Union shall not specify the Member State in which that payment account is to be located, provided that the payment account is in another Member State

We note that you have tried to resolve the issue with the National Transport Authority. We would appreciate if you could send us any additional relevant information, if any, that is available to you on the issue i.e. any further written correspondence between yourself and the National Transport Authority.

We will provide the information to our Consumer Enforcement Division (CED) for information. Our CED examine consumer issues in the context of overall consumer detriment, or loss, and carry out whatever action (if any) is deemed necessary and appropriate. The CCPC is grateful to consumers who take the time to make complaints and highlight areas where there might be detriment however we are not in a position to investigate all complaints. You should also be aware that due to the volume of complaints we receive, it is not possible for us to respond to individual complainants regarding the outcome of analysis of their complaint. We will of course contact consumers if the need arises either in the course of or on completion of an examination.

In the event that CED deem it necessary to contact the relevant body, it is possible that your identity may become apparent to the National Transport Authority in light of your communication. Please also advice whether or not it is acceptable to you that your identity is confirmed in order to resolve the issue if actioned by the CED.

We hope you have found this information useful and if you have any further consumer related queries please do not hesitate to contact us on 1890 432 432 or (01) 4025555.

Yggr of Asgard

SOLVIT

So in my case the German SOLVIT people forwarded my case over 2 weeks ago to the Irish Department of Jobs Enterprise and Innovation.

They were supposed to confirm within 7 days if they would take the case or not, but when I requested an update from the German SOLVIT I was told that there is none.

Has anybody gotten any update from their countries SOLVIT departments, they are now way outside the 7 days deadline.

Bob24

My case was submitted to the Solvit website on 09/03 and routed to France.

The French Solvit centre told me on 17/03 they hard reviewed the case and deemed it valid, and it had therefore been submitted to Solvit Ireland for them to contact the relevant authority.

No news since then (to be fair I haven't followed-up and asked for status either).

I think there are 2 possible explanations for what we are seeing:
1. Solvit Ireland is not too bothered and needs to be pushed a little bit to get things moving.
2. They have indeed talked to the NTA but (assuming they didn't lie in previous communications and their system is not SEPA capable) the NTA is finding itself in a difficult position as they are in breach with the regulation, have no short-term solution to offer, and are trying to come-up with a work-around or an answer which doesn't make them look too bad as since the questions are now coming through EU related channels they can't openly say they are indeed in breach with EU regulations but don't care (as they have been doing in their answer to previous complaints addressed directly to them).

Yggr of Asgard

So the German SOLVIT came back to me (translated from German):

Your request was entered into the SOLVIT system on 21 March 2017. SOLVIT Germany follows your opinion that the practice of the NTA is not compliant with EU law and send it to SOLVIT Ireland.

Our colleagues there are currently trying to find a solution for the problem. Further information have so far not been provided, however we will contact them for further updates.

Very disappointing that the Irish SOLVIT is not sticking to the rules but at least the German SOLVIT agrees with me that the NTA is breaking law/regulations.

Bob24

Yggr of Asgard wrote: »

at least the German SOLVIT agrees with me that the NTA is breaking law/regulations.

Yes I think this is a good news - at least they are not dodging it.

Btw in the original email I got from Solvit it said "SOLVIT aims to find solutions within 10 weeks from the date on which a case is accepted by the lead centre" so based on this I don't think they have broken their SLA yet? (but I know you mentioned a shorter SLA before, so there might be another SLA I have overlooked)

Yggr of Asgard

The Lead SOLVIT center (Ireland in this case) should acknowledge the case within 7 days and inform if they are taking the case. That is once the home SOLVIT center (who also has 7 days to determine and acknowledge) have forwarded it.

The 10 weeks you mention are for the resolution and only start from when the Lead SOLVIT acknowledges the case and takes it.

So by not acknowledging the case to the home SOLVIT they effectively are outside the SLA for the acknowledgement and also buying time because the 10 weeks are not yet counting.

Bob24

So I emailed my contact at SOLVIT France yesterday to ask for a status update, and they clearly confirmed that while there is no other update at this stage the case has been accepted by SOLVIT Ireland (which I guess means the 10 weeks have kicked-in).

Nermal

Lack of resources is not an acceptable excuse for not obeying the law. Well done to those keeping up the efforts!

Bhangraman

Submitted my complaint about same to Solvit, thanks for the suggestion! After many contacts with Leap and NTA, I feel they just are deploying delaying tactics at this stage.

Bubbaclaus

Will it be taxpayers money spent fixing this? Seems like an awful minor inconvenience to be opening the chequebook for.

Bob24

Well to make it short it is a legal requirement the NTA is not fulfilling and which could lead to the Irish gouvernement getting fined more money than it would cost to fix the issue.

And the longer story:

Really the time tax money was wasted on this is when they decided to deploy a non SEPA compliant payment backend in 2011. At the time SEPA compliant systems were available already, and every organisation had been notified years earlier that supporting SEPA direct debits would become a legal requirement in 2014.

Most organisations (private or public) across the EU have been compliant from day 1, so while it is possibly true that as far as the Irish taxpayer is concerned implementing this now is not great value for money, it is required and the blame should really be put on the NTA for previous extremely short sighted decisions.

Bob24

Bhangraman wrote: »

After many contacts with Leap and NTA, I feel they just are deploying delaying tactics at this stage.

This is exactly what they have being doing since the first time I contacted them in December 2014. Talking to them about this seems like it is a waste of time (except the initial contact which will be the basis for a complaint to SOLVIT)

Yggr of Asgard

Bubbaclaus wrote: »

Will it be taxpayers money spent fixing this? Seems like an awful minor inconvenience to be opening the chequebook for.

You might see this is a minor inconvenience but for those of us who avail of free superior banking solutions from other EU countries this is a major inconvenience.

In addition their current solution is not even correctly handling Direct Debits from Irish Banks as there is conversion back into old sort code/account numbers going on for both entering and the actual direct debit. Major source of a.)compliance and b.)error. Imagine a new bank coming into Ireland (in theory, who really would) which does not have that old codes, those customers also would not be able to use the function either.

In addition an arm of the government is ignoring the law for over 2.5 years now and it's getting away with it. Is it really right that the government can do what ever it want ignoring rules but if I would do they come after me?

The NTA did very well know the requirements for the system when they set it up, SEPA was clearly communicated. They wasted money by implementing a bad system which they had 2.5 years to fix and which they are not.

The regulator in Ireland CCPC does also nothing to address this, one arm of the Government protecting another arm of the government, so it's clearly needed to bring in outside resources.

1huge1

Just came across this thread while reading up on the N26 Bank.

Out of curiosity, has there been any update?

Bob24

Not for me ...

I will post here if there are updates.

Yggr of Asgard

I logged a complain with The Advertising Standards Authority for Ireland following loads of adverts of the NTA for the automatic top up facility on bus stops with no advise that it's illegally limited to Irish account's only.

Not that I expect to hear anything back from them, I found that they are not very useful when I complained about Virgin Media recently.

As to the existing complaints, neither the EU Commission nor the SOLVIT has provided any updates so far, but SOLVIT still has 4 weeks to find a solution for my case (as it's 6 weeks since the Irish one got it).

Yggr of Asgard

Nearly 8 weeks since most of us logged the complaint, did anybody get any updates? They only have about 2 weeks left until they should provide a resolution.

Bob24

Still no update.

My bet is that since the NTA has no solution to offer they are going to make it last as long as they can and try to discourage people with mixed-messages and unclear responses followed by no actions (it's been their tactics since 2014 really). Since Solvit has not power to force them to implement the regulation or to impose any sanction, they might not do anything and just come up with some excuses. I don't know what's next for us which could force their hand - probably escalating to the European Commission - but it will take some time. And even if someone manages to push it through then they will have had more time to prepare either a proper long term solution or a quick and dirty work-around shall the EC come and bother the Irish government.

Maybe I am too cynical, but given how long it is been that's the game I think they are playing.

user1842

If you have not already done it, email Valdis Dombrovskis in the European Commission directly with the details of the complaint:

cab-dombrovskis-contact@ec.europa.eu

https://ec.europa.eu/commission/commissioners/2014-2019/dombrovskis_en

Make sure you note IBAN discrimination in the subject of the email.

It is time the EC initiated enforcement actions against Ireland on this.

Bob24

user1842 wrote: »

If you have not already done it, email Valdis Dombrovskis in the European Commission directly with the details of the complaint:

cab-dombrovskis-contact@ec.europa.eu

https://ec.europa.eu/commission/commissioners/2014-2019/dombrovskis_en

Make sure you note IBAN discrimination in the subject of the email.

It is time the EC initiated enforcement actions against Ireland on this.

Have you emailed the commission yourself already and gotten an answer?

Will do that but waiting for solvit's SLA to be elapsed first. I'll have a clear proof that I tried to engage through the EU resolution process then and that the Irish gouvernement (through the NTA) is willingly in breach with the regulation with no intention of complying.

murphaph

Well done all for keeping the pressure up on this. Big failing of the state this one. We have Leap cards which we'll use when visiting home but no auto-top up sucks.

user1842

Bob24 wrote: »

Have you emailed the commission yourself already and gotten an answer?

Will do that but waiting for solvit's SLA to be elapsed first. I'll have a clear proof that I tried to engage through the EU resolution process then and that the Irish gouvernement (through the NTA) is willingly in breach with the regulation with no intention of complying.

No I have not emailed as I don't have a complaint to make. I cannot complain on behalf on someone else useless legally entitled to do so.

With regard to solvit, it might be that these complaints do not go to the Commission but just are sent to the correct competent authority in each country and thus the Directorate in the Commission who has the power to sanction Ireland is not aware.

nsa0bupkd3948x

Received another response from NTA even though I haven't contacted them in a good while.

In previous correspondence on this matter I advised that the core reason that we cannot facilitate non Irish Direct Debits was owing to the pre SEPA specification of our back office operation allied to the prohibitive cost and limited funding position we have. (I attach the message below). We have continued to look into alternative methods of facilitating your request including manual validation of DD mandates. Any such measure would be required to meet our risk controls and prudence considerations. There is, at this point no guarantee that any such measures can be accomplished, but we remain optimistic that we can formulate a resolution.
Our development team is currently working on a solution, which, would then require budget approval and scheduling. This may take a number of months. I will put a note in my diary to contact you with an update at the end of July if we have not anything tangible to report by then.

I don't hold out much hope.

Bob24

Thanks, interesting to see they are volunteering to contact you with an update.

My Solvit case just broke the 10 weeks SLA yesterday. I have sent them an email asking for an update and will share here.

Yggr of Asgard

My Solvit case breaks the 10 weeks on Tuesday, so I have scheduled an inquiry to the German Ministry for than unless they send something before that (unlikely).

Most likely is that the answer we are going to get via Solvit is the same that jasongoodbody posted above.

Next step is the EU commission giving that we now have exhausted all local and EU processes that have given the NTA opportunity to address the issue.

Bob24

Bob24 wrote: »

My Solvit case just broke the 10 weeks SLA yesterday. I have sent them an email asking for an update and will share here.

Still no answer from my French Solvit contact.

He always replied to my previous emails within a few hours, so I guess he's chasing Irish solvit and they don't have an answer ready.

Yggr of Asgard

10 weeks have passed for me yesterday and similar to Bob24, my German Solvit contact is not responding to my e-mail, despite similarly usually coming back within a couple of hours.

I have send a complaint to the EU as I now have exhausted all possible opportunities and none of the organizations (Irish or otherwise) charged with enforcement of my rights has provided a solution.

Let's hope that at least the EU is going to do something about this blatant conspiracy covering up the ongoing ignoring of the law on behalf of the Irish Government.

But I don't think that anything is going to happen. So much to rights as EU citizens and the enforcement of actual law.

Yggr of Asgard

Got feedback today from the German Solvit person:

I got told that he is very sorry that Solvit can not address the issue at this time as the Irish Solvit simply provided the following statement

„At this time the Authority cannot give us an indication as to when the issue will be resolved.“

Irish Solvit also communicated to him that there are another 2 complaints about this issue.

The final statement from the German Solvit is that:

As Solvit could not resolve this issue and there are additional complaints this is now classified as "structural breach" and has been escalated to the European Commission.

However he also said, that this has been raised with the German Minister and that this will be raised on ministerial level now. And I believe him about that.

In addition they are going to revisit this in 6 month to see if this is still an issue.

So in summary, the NTA continues to ignore their duties and there is nothing that can be done against it beside that it's now raised as structural breach and maybe some civil servant at the ministers office will talk to each other.

Disappointing but not unexpected.

jahalpin

Bubbaclaus wrote: »

Will it be taxpayers money spent fixing this? Seems like an awful minor inconvenience to be opening the chequebook for.

It's a pity the state organisations don't take the same few when wasting money translating everything into a dead language i.e.. Irish

Bob24

Yggr of Asgard wrote: »

Disappointing but not unexpected.

Good summary of the situation indeed!

Still no answer from the French one but I guess I will more or less get the same thing.

Bob24

Just got a similar answer to Yggr of Asgard's except they didn't mention escalating to the European Commission.

The basically said Solvit Ireland closed my case as unresolved and will keep working on the "structural issue" as other people have reported the same problem.

The French contact said they will give me updates when they received them from Solvit Ireland, but didn't give any timeline.