Granny flats renting

handlemaster

What is the regs in dublin regarding granny flats can they be rented out ? I have seen some property for sale nothing granny flats but is it legal to rent them out ?

4ensic15

handlemaster wrote: »

What is the regs in dublin regarding granny flats can they be rented out ? I have seen some property for sale nothing granny flats but is it legal to rent them out ?

Usually the planning permission is for a granny only and it can't be let. Banks won't lend for them, as a general rule. the letting of them is often ignored by the planners who do not regard it as a serious crime.

handlemaster

4ensic15 wrote: »

handlemaster wrote: »

What is the regs in dublin regarding granny flats can they be rented out ? I have seen some property for sale nothing granny flats but is it legal to rent them out ?

Usually the planning permission is for a granny only and it can't be let. Banks won't lend for them, as a general rule. the letting of them is often ignored by the planners who do not regard it as a serious crime.

So Banks defo dont lend for them? That would make the property only buyable by a cash investor. So the house and granny flat could only be bought with cash

A granny flat is essentially an additional room in the house. Once it has planning there is no reason to believe that a bank won't lend for a house that has one anymore than another type of extension. If anything it increases the value of the house.

76544567

handlemaster wrote: »

So Banks defo dont lend for them? That would make the property only buyable by a cash investor. So the house and granny flat could only be bought with cash

My parents bought a house with a granny flat a couple of years ago.
It's basically the garage converted to a granny flat. No planning permission.
The bank (AIB i think) did lend them the money to buy the house.
They don't rent it, just use it for visitors.
Though nothing to stop them renting it at all. The next door neighbour rents theirs happily and has been for many years.

I suppose they couldn't ever sell it separately to the house, but i don't think that will ever become an issue.

handlemaster

76544567 wrote: »

handlemaster wrote: »

So Banks defo dont lend for them? That would make the property only buyable by a cash investor. So the house and granny flat could only be bought with cash

My parents bought a house with a granny flat a couple of years ago.
It's basically the garage converted to a granny flat. No planning permission.
The bank (AIB i think) did lend them the money to buy the house.
They don't rent it, just use it for visitors.
Though nothing to stop them renting it at all. The next door neighbour rents theirs happily and has been for many years.

I suppose they couldn't ever sell it separately to the house, but i don't think that will ever become an issue.

That interesting and with no planning I tought that would be no no for the bank

76544567

handlemaster wrote: »

That interesting and with no planning I tought that would be no no for the bank

I asked them about that.
They had gone over it with the solicitor.
Their solicitor explained to them that it's a house with a garage, not a house with a granny flat, even though there is a granny flat inside the garage. So no issues.

Reminded me of another planning issue someone told me about before too.
They were selling their house and there was no planning for a huge garage they had built. The buyers wanted the garage but we're worried about the lack of planning. The solicitors got together and said that if the roof was removed it was just 4 walls and no issue at all. So they agreed that the roof would be removed before the sale. Sale went through but the roof was only "virtually" removed. Everyone was happy.

LirW

http://www.daft.ie/dublin/houses-for-sale/glasnevin/172-ballymun-road-glasnevin-dublin-1312371/

I suspect this one to be exactly that case.
Houses in that area go for an awful lot more but this one is sitting on the market for months. I live quite close and pass it every day, I'm very certain that this self-contained flat was a granny flat with no PP and now the person can't sell it.

handlemaster

76544567 wrote: »

I asked them about that.
They had gone over it with the solicitor.
Their solicitor explained to them that it's a house with a garage, not a house with a granny flat, even though there is a granny flat inside the garage. So no issues.

Reminded me of another planning issue someone told me about before too.
They were selling their house and there was no planning for a huge garage they had built. The buyers wanted the garage but we're worried about the lack of planning. The solicitors got together and said that if the roof was removed it was just 4 walls and no issue at all. So they agreed that the roof would be removed before the sale. Sale went through but the roof was only "virtually" removed. Everyone was happy.

what if in alot of cases its a build onto the side of the house ?

4ensic15

handlemaster wrote: »

So Banks defo dont lend for them? That would make the property only buyable by a cash investor. So the house and granny flat could only be bought with cash

The banks take a view on a case by case basis. A buyer with a large deposit resulting a low LTV would have a better chance than an FTB on a high LTV and close to the maximum loan for their income. The original planning may also be loose enough to allow leeway. It is usually better for the seller to take it out before marketing.

76544567

handlemaster wrote: »

what if in alot of cases its a build onto the side of the house ?

I couldn't tell you about that one as I've no experience of it.
But houses with granny flats change hands all the time. I'd imagine an estate agent would be a good source if you were planning to buy one. They would deal with the situation all the time.
As would a solicitor.

76544567

LirW wrote: »

http://www.daft.ie/dublin/houses-for-sale/glasnevin/172-ballymun-road-glasnevin-dublin-1312371/

I suspect this one to be exactly that case.
Houses in that area go for an awful lot more but this one is sitting on the market for months. I live quite close and pass it every day, I'm very certain that this self-contained flat was a granny flat with no PP and now the person can't sell it.

Probably not even the granny flat. From the looks of that, everything about both the house and the flat roof granny flat look like that while place is about to fall down or at the very least get condemned . Someone without a clue, has been having a go at diy on that place for many years i bet.

handlemaster

4ensic15 wrote: »

handlemaster wrote: »

So Banks defo dont lend for them? That would make the property only buyable by a cash investor. So the house and granny flat could only be bought with cash

The banks take a view on a case by case basis. A buyer with a large deposit resulting a low LTV would have a better chance than an FTB on a high LTV and close to the maximum loan for their income. The original planning may also be loose enough to allow leeway. It is usually better for the seller to take it out before marketing.

I seen that After 7 years éventuellement with no planning permission. The build is permitted

BryanF

Planning is required for a granny flat

The application will generally outline the relatives requirements to live close to home owner etc

Planning permission will typically stipulate that the accommodation must be connected by internal door, and must revert to be part of the main dwelling once it's no longer used by relative

If you rent it - you will be in breach of the planning permission

The '7 year' prosecution time frame does not mean anything is 'permitted'

Edit: Converting a garage to accommodation ancillary to the dwelling, assuming it hasn't been extended previously MAY fall under exempted development under certain standard conditions

handlemaster

BryanF wrote: »

Planning is required for a granny flat

The application will generally outline the relatives requirements to live close to home owner etc

Planning permission will typically stipulate that the accommodation must be connected by internal door, and must revert to be part of the main dwelling once it's no longer used by relative

If you rent it - you will be in breach of the planning permission

The '7 year' prosecution time frame does not mean anything is 'permitted'

Is there a means by which permission can be sought to permit renting ? Given the current housing shortage

BryanF

handlemaster wrote: »

Is there a means by which permission can be sought to permit renting ? Given the current housing shortage

Apply to the council for permission for a separate dwelling - subject to separate foul /surface sewerage, power, entrance, parking, private open space etc etc

Edit: to answer your direct question, there is nothing I'm aware of in Irish law that allows for this. The planning/building reg/housing standard laws were not conceived with a housing shortage in mind, in fact you could argue increased privatisation of 'building control' by hogan Fine Gael and changes to regs on bedsits by fianna fail have contributed to the housing shortage.

BryanF

BryanF wrote: »

Planning is required for a granny flat

The application will generally outline the relatives requirements to live close to home owner etc

Planning permission will typically stipulate that the accommodation must be connected by internal door, and must revert to be part of the main dwelling once it's no longer used by relative

If you rent it - you will be in breach of the planning permission

The '7 year' prosecution time frame does not mean anything is 'permitted'

Edit: Converting a garage to accommodation ancillary to the dwelling, assuming it hasn't been extended previously MAY fall under exempted development under certain standard conditions

I can see there being difficulty in planning if renting a granny flat that is seperate to the house itself but I cannot see how planning can stop you renting a granny flat that is part of the main house, which it is if it's connected by a internal door. It's no different to renting a bedroom as it's under the same roof and you can walk freely to and from it internally.

I've seen houses for sale with 2 bed apartments build on but connected internally (and with seperate entrance) and the sales agent heavily promoting the fact it can be rented under the rent a room scheme and achieve x amount per month so I can't see there being a planning issue as it's just an extension of the main house (and sales agents tend to hide planning issues in their ads also).

Samuel T. Cogley

I saw a house up the street recently which has an own door granny flat attached sell. It was stipulated in the ad that it could not be rented out. I've no idea if there was an internal door, I didn't go nosing :pac:

handlemaster

More to the point has anyone ever been brought to court for this ?

Gumbo

handlemaster wrote: »

So Banks defo dont lend for them? That would make the property only buyable by a cash investor. So the house and granny flat could only be bought with cash

The granny flat is an extension to the main dwelling. A bank with mortgage one no problem but you must be buying the house and granny flat as one property. They also must be connected.

Gumbo

handlemaster wrote: »

More to the point has anyone ever been brought to court for this ?

Haven't seen court proceedings yet, most people comply when they get the warning letter from Planning Enforcement with a breakdown of costs associated against the home owner of the notice is not complied with.


So yes, I see a lot of Enforcement actions, no court as all comply.

BryanF

Maggie Prickly Stretcher wrote: »

I can see there being difficulty in planning if renting a granny flat that is seperate to the house itself but I cannot see how planning can stop you renting a granny flat that is part of the main house, which it is if it's connected by a internal door. It's no different to renting a bedroom as it's under the same roof and you can walk freely to and from it internally.

I've seen houses for sale with 2 bed apartments build on but connected internally (and with seperate entrance) and the sales agent heavily promoting the fact it can be rented under the rent a room scheme and achieve x amount per month so I can't see there being a planning issue as it's just an extension of the main house (and sales agents tend to hide planning issues in their ads also).

The key word here is 'sales agent'

Buyer beware

Or in this case 'renter' beware

Whether you 'see' an issue or not is irrelevant. Planning law is the law. The house you speak of either has planning for it's use or it does not.

BryanF

BryanF wrote: »

The key word here is 'sales agent'

Buyer beware

Or in this case 'renter' beware

Whether you 'see' an issue or not is irrelevant. Planning law is the law. The house you speak of either has planning for it's use or it does not.

As another poster said they are just extensions to the house, I see no reason planning would even be required to rent the granny flat anymore than a bedroom in the house. After all it's just another room in the house once there is an internal link between them, they can have a seperate entrance too but once there is a door inside it's just renting a room, the fact it has a bathroom and a small kitchen doesn't really matter, it's like some people renting rooms have two living rooms and allow the room renting have one for their use while the home only uses the other.

If you are talking about planning to actually build the extension that houses the granny flat that's a different story though once it's bellow a certain size it's exempt from planning anyway also. If the granny flat was seperate from the main house that would also be different but that's very rare.

Gumbo

Maggie Prickly Stretcher wrote: »

If you are talking about planning to actually build the extension that houses the granny flat that's a different story though once it's bellow a certain size it's exempt from planning anyway also. If the granny flat was seperate from the main house that would also be different but that's very rare.

Just to clarify, a "granny flat" is never exempt from planning, no matter what size it is.

A granny flat is a slang term made up for the official classification of these unit "Ancillary Family Accommodation".

It's the kitchen that dictates its use as a "granny flat" most of the time and the sole main threat to the dwelling as a whole (increased risk of fire).

Don't confuse domestic extension exemptions with granny flats and also, if the granny flat is separate from the house, put your radar on full blast as I can guarantee it's not planning compliant.

handlemaster

kceire wrote: »

Maggie Prickly Stretcher wrote: »

If you are talking about planning to actually build the extension that houses the granny flat that's a different story though once it's bellow a certain size it's exempt from planning anyway also. If the granny flat was seperate from the main house that would also be different but that's very rare.

Just to clarify, a "granny flat" is never exempt from planning, no matter what size it is.

A granny flat is a slang term made up for the official classification of these unit "Ancillary Family Accommodation".

It's the kitchen that dictates its use as a "granny flat" most of the time and the sole main threat to the dwelling as a whole (increased risk of fire).

Don't confuse domestic extension exemptions with granny flats and also, if the granny flat is separate from the house, put your radar on full blast as I can guarantee it's not planning compliant.

Separate as in not touching te main house or builth onto the house ?

handlemaster

handlemaster wrote: »

Separate as in not touching te main house or builth onto the house ?

There needs to be a door from the main house to the granny flat, essentially it has to be an extension.

handlemaster

Maggie Prickly Stretcher wrote: »

handlemaster wrote: »

Separate as in not touching te main house or builth onto the house ?

There needs to be a door from the main house to the granny flat, essentially it has to be an extension.

If there is not a door is that illegal and un mortgagable then ?

Gumbo

handlemaster wrote: »

If there is not a door is that illegal and un mortgagable then ?

If there's no door then it is not in compliance with the granted planning permission.
Your survey will pick up on it and your solicitor will instruct the vendors to regulators it by carrying out the works required to comply or apply for retention. Retention won't happen due to costs, time frame and the fact that it will be refused.

If there's an open non planning compliance during the same, then your bank will not release funds for draw down.

handlemaster

Therefore only suitable for cash buyers

76544567

handlemaster wrote: »

If there is not a door is that illegal and un mortgagable then ?

No. There are remedies to any sale issue.
The solicitors will work it out between them.

76544567

Maggie Prickly Stretcher wrote: »

As another poster said they are just extensions to the house, I see no reason planning would even be required to rent the granny flat anymore than a bedroom in the house. After all it's just another room in the house once there is an internal link between them, they can have a seperate entrance too but once there is a door inside it's just renting a room, the fact it has a bathroom and a small kitchen doesn't really matter, it's like some people renting rooms have two living rooms and allow the room renting have one for their use while the home only uses the other.

If you are talking about planning to actually build the extension that houses the granny flat that's a different story though once it's bellow a certain size it's exempt from planning anyway also. If the granny flat was seperate from the main house that would also be different but that's very rare.

Or they might inhabit that area where there is no planning but it's been there long enough that they can't ask you to knock it down. 6 or 7 years or something like that.
My own house had a kitchen extension with no planning. It was discovered when we bought it about the lack of planning and the situation explained to us by our solicitor. Bank had no issues. Then when we sold it, same story. The new buyer was aware of the lack of planning and it caused no issues.

Chiparus

Would it be easier to rent it out using the rent a room scheme for tax purposes?

Chiparus

Chiparus wrote: »

Would it be easier to rent it out using the rent a room scheme for tax purposes?

That's the whole idea really, a granny flat is the ideal scenario. You don't really share your house with the person renting it (the connecting door can be locked between the house and flat) but at the same time you are fully entitled to earn up to 14k per annum tax free.

I saw a house for sale a while back with a very nice two bed apartment built on but still connected to the main house (also had its own seperate entrance). It was in a very sought after area and could easily have gotten say 900 a month for it in the current climate. That's all tax free and would have covered roughly 3/4 of the mortgage on the house. Absolute peach of a deal for the buyer (if they went down that route). I always keep an eye out for houses with a self contained unit under the same roof for this reason.

Gumbo

handlemaster wrote: »

Therefore only suitable for cash buyers

correct. If there's no link then it's not a granny flat so an unauthorized structure.

Gumbo

Maggie Prickly Stretcher wrote: »

That's the whole idea really, a granny flat is the ideal scenario. You don't really share your house with the person renting it (the connecting door can be locked between the house and flat) but at the same time you are fully entitled to earn up to 14k per annum tax free.

I saw a house for sale a while back with a very nice two bed apartment built on but still connected to the main house (also had its own seperate entrance). It was in a very sought after area and could easily have gotten say 900 a month for it in the current climate. That's all tax free and would have covered roughly 3/4 of the mortgage on the house. Absolute peach of a deal for the buyer (if they went down that route). I always keep an eye out for houses with a self contained unit under the same roof for this reason.

Was this house in Raheny/Artane?

kceire

kceire wrote: »

Was this house in Raheny/Artane?

No was in Galway city, was a good while back too so any link is gone. Came across the ad by chance wasn't somewhere I was looking at for myself but know the area it was and it's a very popular area close.

handlemaster

76544567 wrote: »

handlemaster wrote: »

If there is not a door is that illegal and un mortgagable then ?

No. There are remedies to any sale issue.
The solicitors will work it out between them.

If there is ment to be a connection between the two and there isnt. I dont know what the solicitors could do

4ensic15

Maggie Prickly Stretcher wrote: »

I can see there being difficulty in planning if renting a granny flat that is seperate to the house itself but I cannot see how planning can stop you renting a granny flat that is part of the main house, which it is if it's connected by a internal door. It's no different to renting a bedroom as it's under the same roof and you can walk freely to and from it internally.

I've seen houses for sale with 2 bed apartments build on but connected internally (and with seperate entrance) and the sales agent heavily promoting the fact it can be rented under the rent a room scheme and achieve x amount per month so I can't see there being a planning issue as it's just an extension of the main house (and sales agents tend to hide planning issues in their ads also).

The tax position is stand alone and doesn't mean there aren't planning issues. Agents often push nonsense to distract from some other drawback.

4ensic15

4ensic15 wrote: »

The tax position is stand alone and doesn't mean there aren't planning issues. Agents often push nonsense to distract from some other drawback.

The only planning issue could be with the actual structure there is no requirement for planning to rent a room in your home which is all renting a granny flat is.

4ensic15

Maggie Prickly Stretcher wrote: »

The only planning issue could be with the actual structure there is no requirement for planning to rent a room in your home which is all renting a granny flat is.

There is planning required to have a second dwelling in your home, which is all renting a granny flat is. The fact the tax man deals with it under rent a room is irrelevant.

BryanF

Maggie Prickly Stretcher wrote: »

As another poster said ... I see no reason planning would even be required to rent the granny flat.. .

this is my last post on the matter.

BryanF wrote: »

Planning is required for a granny flat.

Planning permission will typically stipulate that the accommodation must be connected by internal door, and must revert to be part of the main dwelling once it's no longer used by relative

4ensic15

4ensic15 wrote: »

There is planning required to have a second dwelling in your home, which is all renting a granny flat is. The fact the tax man deals with it under rent a room is irrelevant.

It's not a seperate dwelling, it's just another room in the house.

BryanF wrote: »

this is my last post on the matter.

As above it is always part of the main dwelling, the internal door ensures this.

Gumbo

Maggie Prickly Stretcher wrote: »

It's not a seperate dwelling, it's just another room in the house.



As above it is always part of the main dwelling, the internal door ensures this.

The planning act and the residential tenancies act operate separately here.
While you could rent out a granny flat to joe soap and have a lease or rental agreement that the RTA and PRTB are happy with, you are still breaching the planning act by Separating the dwelling by lease and this wording is stated in the grant of permission.

Up to the home owner if they want to take the chance I suppose.

kceire

kceire wrote: »

The planning act and the residential tenancies act operate separately here.
While you could rent out a granny flat to joe soap and have a lease or rental agreement that the RTA and PRTB are happy with, you are still breaching the planning act by Separating the dwelling by lease and this wording is stated in the grant of permission.

Up to the home owner if they want to take the chance I suppose.

If it's rented out under the rent a room scheme though there won't be any rental agreement, the person is just renting a room with a bathroom (which is normal with ensuites) and a small kitchen. The door is there to the main house so it's not a seperate dwelling. Not really seeing how it can be considered a seperate dwelling any more than a bedroom with ensuite down one end of a house.

athtrasna

Mod note

The OP asked if it was legal to rent it out. No reference to rent a room . Please don't derail the thread. As people have pointed out the key here is planning permission.

76544567

handlemaster wrote: »

If there is ment to be a connection between the two and there isnt. I dont know what the solicitors could do

Same situation as the roof on the shed i was talking about i suppose.
Solicitors work stuff out like for property sales every day. Out of all transactions I've been involved with, more were not straightforward than were. All were fine in the end though.