Summons to court no pr virus fine letter issued

IrishHomer

A Garda stopped me driving on 1st December last while holding a phone on speaker on my lap.

At the time he said to watch out for a letter in the post within a few weeks.

I watched the post every week and I was anxious to pay fine get penalty points and learn a lesson and move on.

Nothing ever arrived.

Today my local Sargent and her Garda colleague arrived at my home and handed me a court summons. I told them I was very surprised and that I had been expecting a letter with a fine a couple of months ago but it never arrived.

Now I have to take a day off work lose €200 wages and appear in court. I also noticed on the summons the Garda claims I was in his county and I'm sure I was across the border in my county. Any very pissed off never getting the letter and now having to go to court,

Any advice tips appreciated.

Samuel T. Cogley

A good hands free is my advice.

IrishHomer

Samuel T. Cogley wrote: »

A good hands free is my advice.

I bought a Bluetooth earpiece thanks

Samuel T. Cogley

IrishHomer wrote: »

I bought a Bluetooth earpiece thanks

Nice one!

I believe the loopholes on not getting the letter have now been closed off but a solicitor would be better placed to advise you. You may not need to appear at all (using a solicitor).

Kepler 186f

Was the address on your licence different to where the summons was served personally to you?
Do you live with others who may have misplaced the fine?

IrishHomer

Kepler 186f wrote:

Was the address on your licence different to where the summons was served personally to you? Do you live with others who may have misplaced the fine?

No, licence address is same as my current address.

The vehicle reg was not mine, it was work vehicle addressed to the state.

jimmycrackcorm

I'm not 100% sure whether getting a solicitor would be actually worth it unless you can argue the point successfully as it would cost you more than the fine.

But if you're going to lose €200 for day out of work then work and instead spend it on a solicitor to argue the various points about you not receiving the opportunity to pay a fine. Clearly the fine went to your employer which doesn't correspond to your address, so they f'd that up given they had your licence. They should be asked to provide proof where the fine was sent to and to prove that you should be in a position to receive it. Take for example HSE ambulances dotted all round the country. Most are registered in NAAS with KE regs. So fines would go there for speeding which is no use to someone allocated one in Cavan.

A solicitor should even dispute the holding of the phone because it was on your lap, not the same as up to your ear.

IrishHomer

jimmycrackcorm wrote:

But if you're going to lose €200 for day out of work then work and instead spend it on a solicitor to argue the various points about you not receiving the opportunity to pay a fine. Clearly the fine went to your employer which doesn't correspond to your address, so they f'd that up given they had your licence. They should be asked to provide proof where the fine was sent to and to prove that you should be in a position to receive it. Take for example HSE ambulances dotted all round the country. Most are registered in NAAS with KE regs. So fines would go there for speeding which is no use to someone allocated one in Cavan.

jimmycrackcorm wrote:

I'm not 100% sure whether getting a solicitor would be actually worth it unless you can argue the point successfully as it would cost you more than the fine.

jimmycrackcorm wrote:

A solicitor should even dispute the holding of the phone because it was on your lap, not the same as up to your ear.

Jimmycrackhorm thanks for your very informative post. I've my mind made up I'm going to hire a solicitor.

Facts are:

Phone was resting again my stomach in no way held near face

Original letter never came it must have went to Dublin where the vehicle is registered to employer (civil servant)

I'd even argue summons is incorrect in relation to town land and county.

I'm just really annoyed I wasn't issued an original letter and given the opportunity to pay move on and forget about it than now faced with this scenario of court etc.

harr

No won't win the argument about holding the phone because technically you were and needed to answer it before resting it on your lap..
The other points you might have a chance of getting somewhere...if it was me I would ask a solicitors advice but I definitely would go to your court date to give your version of events even if you get a solicitor or not..

hullaballoo

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

I'm not 100% sure whether getting a solicitor would be actually worth it unless you can argue the point successfully as it would cost you more than the fine.

Most sensible people would regards giving yourself every opportunity available to avoid a criminal record and 5+ penalty points as money well spent.

It's not just a matter of cost of solicitor vs cost of fine. Your insurance premium will be greatly affected by such a conviction with that level of points.

Tbh, that kind of advice is totally reckless.

emeldc

Is this not one of the reasons O'Sullivan is in the sh1t .... issuing summonses before giving people a chance to pay fixed penalty notices.

ohnonotgmail

IrishHomer wrote: »

Jimmycrackhorm thanks for your very informative post. I've my mind made up I'm going to hire a solicitor.

Facts are:

Phone was resting again my stomach in no way held near face

Original letter never came it must have went to Dublin where the vehicle is registered to employer (civil servant)

I'd even argue summons is incorrect in relation to town land and county.

I'm just really annoyed I wasn't issued an original letter and given the opportunity to pay move on and forget about it than now faced with this scenario of court etc.

something minor like this would get corrected when you appear in court. It doesnt make the summons invalid.

boardsuser1

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

something minor like this would get corrected when you appear in court. It doesnt make the summons invalid.

+1

Tried this years ago, Judge corrected the error and proceeded to convict.

Won the appeal though.

Not for holding a mobile though.

ted1

IrishHomer wrote: »

I bought a Bluetooth earpiece thanks

That's not a good one, an integrated one is better

IrishHomer

ohnonotgmail wrote:

something minor like this would get corrected when you appear in court. It doesnt make the summons invalid.

That's fair enough it's just a joke of a system not issuing the letter and now all this extra hasle

ted1

hullaballoo wrote: »

Most sensible people would regards giving yourself every opportunity available to avoid a criminal record and 5+ penalty points as money well spent.

It's not just a matter of cost of solicitor vs cost of fine. Your insurance premium will be greatly affected by such a conviction with that level of points.

Tbh, that kind of advice is totally reckless.

You don't get a criminal record

ohnonotgmail

ted1 wrote: »

You don't get a criminal record

how so? you will have been convicted in court of a criminal offence. How is that not having a criminal record?

ted1

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

how so? you will have been convicted in court of a criminal offence. How is that not having a criminal record?

Because a road traffic offence isn't considered a criminal offence

ohnonotgmail

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

how so? you will have been convicted in court of a criminal offence. How is that not having a criminal record?

It's not a criminal offence. It's a road traffic offence. Not a criminal matter

CJmasgrande

Blacktie. wrote:

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Blacktie. wrote:

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I read somewhere that the onus is on me to prove i never received the fine notice letter. Any tips how to go about showing/proving this to the court?

hullaballoo

Road Traffic offences are criminal offences.

A conviction for a road traffic offence goes onto your criminal record.

I can't understand how people believe otherwise but I'm afraid if you think anything else, you are grossly misinformed.

hullaballoo

Moderator: Freeman on the land type reply deleted together with replies.

MonkieSocks

IrishHomer wrote: »

Now I have to take a day off work lose €200

€200 a day:eek:....what you work at O/P

givyjoe

hullaballoo wrote: »

Road Traffic offences are criminal offences.

A conviction for a road traffic offence goes onto your criminal record.

I can't understand how people believe otherwise but I'm afraid if you think anything else, you are grossly misinformed.

Genuine request, would you mind enlightening us with the relevant legislation or point towards it?

Surely It doesn't make sense that ALL Road Traffic Offences go on to a criminal record, sure some like reckless driving causing death but all.. really?

Ted111

hullaballoo wrote: »

Road Traffic offences are criminal offences.

A conviction for a road traffic offence goes onto your criminal record.

I can't understand how people believe otherwise but I'm afraid if you think anything else, you are grossly misinformed.

Traditionally you had - treason, felony, misdemeanour and then offences. Presumably the CLA 1997 made everything category of crime

jimmycrackcorm

hullaballoo wrote:

Tbh, that kind of advice is totally reckless.

hullaballoo wrote:

It's not just a matter of cost of solicitor vs cost of fine. Your insurance premium will be greatly affected by such a conviction with that level of points.

Then the opp should consult a solicitor as I think the particular circumstances are different than the usual didn't get it in the post.

Peregrinus

givyjoe wrote: »

Genuine request, would you mind enlightening us with the relevant legislation or point towards it?

Surely It doesn't make sense that ALL Road Traffic Offences go on to a criminal record, sure some like reckless driving causing death but all.. really?

Yeah, really. There is simply no concept in Irish law of an offence that isn't a criminal offence. There never has been.

Crimes are basically acts which will be investigated and punished by the state (like murder, or driving in excess of the speed limit, or robbery with violence, or parking where you're not allowed to park) as opposed to civil wrongs, where no action is taken by the state and it's up to an aggreived citizen to pursue you (like not repaying a loan, or injuring somebody through negligence, or defaming somebody). There are crimes of greater and lesser seriousness, obviously, but they're all crimes, and all convictions are criminal convictions, and your criminal record is simply a statement of all the convictions you have.

A criminal record which consists entirely of minor motoring offences isn't a very serious thing, perhaps, but it's still a criminal record.

dev100

IrishHomer wrote:

Phone was resting again my stomach in no way held near face

Isn't it based on being on your person ?

challengemaster

dev100 wrote: »

Isn't it based on being on your person ?

RTA 2006

3.— (1) A person shall not while driving a mechanically propelled vehicle in a public place hold a mobile phone.
..
(9) In this section—

“ hold ”, in relation to a mobile phone, means holding the phone by hand or supporting or cradling it with another part of the body;

Pat Mustard

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

something minor like this would get corrected when you appear in court. It doesnt make the summons invalid.

KC161 wrote: »

+1

Tried this years ago, Judge corrected the error and proceeded to convict.

Won the appeal though.

Not for holding a mobile though.

Separately, it is worth noting that if a charge is brought in the incorrect District Court Area, a District Judge has no jurisdiction to hear the matter and there would be no choice except to dismiss.

Big C

KC161 wrote: »

+1

Tried this years ago, Judge corrected the error and proceeded to convict.

Won the appeal though.

Not for holding a mobile though.

Same thing for me, wrong reg on the summons, Guard realised before court, asked me for correct reg Ireplied I forget, Guard gave his evidence, my solicitor asked are you finished evidence and then proceeded totell judge the reg was wrong, judge recalled the guard to the stand. My solicitor objected as the guard had stated he had finished giving evidence.
Judge had to dismiss but warned solicitor never to try that stunt in her court again.

Ted111

The very act of appearing court remedies defects in summons. Nice circular logic of appearing, to argue that you shouldn't have had to appear.

lawred2

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

how so? you will have been convicted in court of a criminal offence. How is that not having a criminal record?

not all motoring offences are criminal offences

fairly sure none of the fixed charge offences would be criminal offences

Samuel T. Cogley

Ted111 wrote: »

The very act of appearing court remedies defects in summons. Nice circular logic of appearing, to argue that you shouldn't have had to appear.

If only there was some easy way of avoiding all of this...

tedpan

IrishHomer wrote:

A Garda stopped me driving on 1st December last while holding a phone on speaker on my lap.

IrishHomer wrote:

At the time he said to watch out for a letter in the post within a few weeks.

IrishHomer wrote:

I watched the post every week and I was anxious to pay fine get penalty points and learn a lesson and move on.

IrishHomer wrote:

Nothing ever arrived.

This happened to me about 5 years ago.

Nothing at all in the post. Then a summons about 12 months later. I was very naive at the time and didn't organize a solicitor.

The Garda on duty didn't even show up to the case.

I was given 5 points and a €350 fine.

Got a BT carkit afterwards.

HeidiHeidi

tedpan wrote: »

This happened to me about 5 years ago.

Nothing at all in the post. Then a summons about 12 months later. I was very naive at the time and didn't organize a solicitor.

The Garda on duty didn't even show up to the case.

I was given 5 points and a €350 fine.

Got a BT carkit afterwards.

How were you convicted if there was nobody there to give evidence against you?

ohnonotgmail

lawred2 wrote: »

not all motoring offences are criminal offences

fairly sure none of the fixed charge offences would be criminal offences

and i'm fairly sure you are wrong.

lawred2

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

and i'm fairly sure you are wrong.

very possible

CarrickMcJoe

Stories like this have been on LIVELINE all week. Seems a lot of people don't receive letters!

emeldc

If you pay the fixed penalty there is no criminal record. If you are convicted in court, there is a criminal record.

ohnonotgmail

emeldc wrote: »

If you pay the fixed penalty there is no criminal record. If you are convicted in court, there is a criminal record.

irrespective of whether you pay the fcpn or not they are still criminal offences.

Pat Mustard

lawred2 wrote: »

not all motoring offences are criminal offences

fairly sure none of the fixed charge offences would be criminal offences

It has already been mentioned more than once in this thread that an offence in law is a criminal offence.

Motoring offences which attract penalty points are still criminal offences. However, motorists are given the option to avoid criminal prosecution by accepting the fixed charge and penalty points (if applicable).

Minor offence are still criminal offences. The previous classification of "misdemeanour" still referred to criminal offences. (The classification of misdemeanour no longer exists in Ireland.)

These are basic principles.

emeldc

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

irrespective of whether you pay the fcpn or not they are still criminal offences.

A criminal offence, yes, but without criminal record as long as you pay.

From citizens information:

If the fixed charge notice is paid within the legal time limits and court proceedings are not commenced you will not have a criminal record in respect of the offence.

Mango Joe

Mod:

Advocating illegal behaviour is not allowed. Post deleted.

Claw Hammer

Ted111 wrote: »

The very act of appearing court remedies defects in summons. Nice circular logic of appearing, to argue that you shouldn't have had to appear.

It is perfectly possible to make a conditional appearance in order to challenge jurisdiction.

Claw Hammer

Pat Mustard wrote: »

Separately, it is worth noting that if a charge is brought in the incorrect District Court Area, a District Judge has no jurisdiction to hear the matter and there would be no choice except to dismiss.

Separately, it is worth noting that if a charge is brought in the incorrect District Court area the judge has to refuse jurisdiction and cannot dismiss. He can strike it out and if the prosecution want to they can go to the correct District Court area. They may be out of time in some cases however.

Pat Mustard

Dismiss without prejudice then.

In practical terms, once a matter is struck out against the guards, that tends to be last of the matter. They tend not to bring it again

tedpan

HeidiHeidi wrote:

How were you convicted if there was nobody there to give evidence against you?

Another guard read out what had happened. I found out afterwards that if I'd had a solicitor, they would have had it thrown out.

Just to add, there were a lot of drug dealing offences, none of whom were working received 50 & 100 euros to be paid over several months.
The judge asked me if I was working. I said yes and had to cough up the 350 euro within a month.

IrishHomer

I called the relevant Garda station this evening and looked to talk to the Garda who was behind my case. He was off but i asked the Garda who answered the phone a few questions. He was nice and a bit helpful. I told him about not ever receiving the letter and he confirmed they don't use registered post. I said i believe the onus is on me to prove letter never arrived and he agreed. He said letters are issued from Templemore and they just use the regular An Post tracking number that shows was delivered. He couldn't advise me how i go about proving not receiving the letter.

L1011

IrishHomer wrote: »

I called the relevant Garda station this evening and looked to talk to the Garda who was behind my case. He was off but i asked the Garda who answered the phone a few questions. He was nice and a bit helpful. I told him about not ever receiving the letter and he confirmed they don't use registered post. I said i believe the onus is on me to prove letter never arrived and he agreed. He said letters are issued from Templemore and they just use the regular An Post tracking number that shows was delivered. He couldn't advise me how i go about proving not receiving the letter.

You have no way of proving it hasn't arrived. You may be asked whether other post doesn't arrive, which realistically its very hard to know unless you actually have some constant post source

IrishHomer

Well I'll be swearing under oath I never received a letter