Diesel or petrol?

Katie9

Hi,

Am trading in my old Toyota Avensis petrol car for a Seat Ateca diesel, was hoping to do a deal this week.

Just read in some of the Sunday papers that, as Ireland is in breach of emissions controls, it's likely diesel cars will be subject to increased car taxes and charges etc. in the future.

I drive in excess of 15000 miles p.a.

Should I forget about diesel, buy petrol or maybe service my car and sit tight another year?

Would appreciate advice. Thank you.

knipex

Do you drive more than 30K km per anum.
Do you regularly do long journeys ? (50km+)

If the answer is no to either of the above buy petrol..

colm_mcm

Why should you not drive diesel if you're doing less than 30,000km?

The alternative here is a small turbocharged petrol engine.

Mooooo

I assume any changes will be similar to before and apply to cars bought after that date, so you should be ok on that regard. They may make newer diesels more expensive I doubt they will make petrols any cheaper. The way they could catch would be increase diesel fuel prices but if your driving style/ journeys suit diesel and I doubt it will increase very fast anyway as there are still so many on the road and the politicians will want to be reelected.

knipex

colm_mcm wrote: »

Why should you not drive diesel if you're doing less than 30,000km?

The alternative here is a small turbocharged petrol engine.

Because it makes absolutely no financial sense to buy diesel is you are doing less than 30k km.

The extra purchase price and maintenance costs will not be recouped.

Even at 30k its borderline..

bazz26

The 1.4 petrol Ateca starts at €28,300, the 2.0 diesel which is 4wd starts at €31,900 so not a huge difference to claw back if you are covering 30k km per year of mostly motorway type driving. Of course if most of your driving is short journeys then petrol makes more sense irrespective of your annual mileage.

knipex

bazz26 wrote: »

The 1.4 petrol Ateca starts at €28,300, the 2.0 diesel which is 4wd starts at €31,900 so not a huge difference to claw back if you are covering 30k km per year of mostly motorway type driving. Of course if most of your driving is short journeys then petrol makes more sense irrespective of your annual mileage.

About 17 to 20,000 ltrs of fuel

Plus the maintenance costs are higher, higher tire wear etc.

As the price differential closes (and it will) that gets even worse..

Look at it this way.. 30,000km at an average of 5.5l per 100km is about 1,650 Ltrs.. assuming €1.25 per ltr that's approx (rounding) €2,000

What are you going to save on petrol ? 20% ? €400 Diesels eat front tires due to engine weight and general maintenance costs are higher.. when you factor that in .....

Casati

knipex wrote: »

Because it makes absolutely no financial sense to buy diesel is you are doing less than 30k km.

The extra purchase price and maintenance costs will not be recouped.

Even at 30k its borderline..

Don't agree with that, a lot of cars the extra cost to buy the diesel is only 1000 and secondhand value has always been higher for diesel

Service packs which last three or four services are generally the same for petro or diesel, Seat charge 295 for the first three services.

Most new car buyers keep cars for three or four years and repairs end up being the next owners problem

knipex

knipex wrote: »

Do you drive more than 30K km per anum.
Do you regularly do long journeys ? (50km+)

If the answer is no to either of the above buy petrol..

I'm doing 15k km per year and will be changing to diesel next as I'm spending too much on petrol. Purchase price similar, maintence same more or less, fuel saving significant. Then you have a higher resale which will most likely wipe out any difference in purchase price.

The scaremongering around buying diesels is getting very tiresome. Even short journeys are not phasing the newer cars post 2012 or a bit later with much improved dpfs etc.

knipex

Rodrigo Helpful Repression wrote: »

I'm doing 15k km per year and will be changing to diesel next as I'm spending too much on petrol. Purchase price similar, maintence same more or less, fuel saving significant. Then you have a higher resale which will most likely wipe out any difference in purchase price.

The scaremongering around buying diesels is getting very tiresome. Even short journeys are not phasing the newer cars post 2012 or a bit later with much improved dpfs etc.

You asked a question. I answered. If you want to ignore my reply then that's your choice... I'm not going to loose any sleep.

Been driving diesels for 20 years. Doing 45 to 50k km per annum

Never had to replace a DPF, ERG, DMF or anything beyond standard maintenance and timing belts etc. over 250K on current car.

Bought many second hand diesels over the years and wouldn't touch one that wasn't averaging 30K per annum unless I knew it did a run to Dublin and back every week and then sat in a car park.

15k km per annum @ average 5.5ltr per 100km is 825 ltrs.. about €1,000 is diesel. Assuming that Petrol would cost 20% more thats €200

Your car will depreciate more than that the minute you garage put on the plates.

But its your choice..

knipex

knipex wrote: »

You asked a question. I answered. If you want to ignore my reply then that's your choice... I'm not going to loose any sleep.

Been driving diesels for 20 years. Doing 45 to 50k km per annum

Never had to replace a DPF, ERG, DMF or anything beyond standard maintenance and timing belts etc. over 250K on current car.

Bought many second hand diesels over the years and wouldn't touch one that wasn't averaging 30K per annum unless I knew it did a run to Dublin and back every week and then sat in a car park.

15k km per annum @ average 5.5ltr per 100km is 825 ltrs.. about €1,000 is diesel. Assuming that Petrol would cost 20% more thats €200

Your car will depreciate more than that the minute you garage put on the plates.

But its your choice..

I'm averaging almost 11l/100km. A good portion of my overall driving is regular long trips. I'd increase the number of long trips if it was costing me nearly half the price per trip. I would be changing the car anyway it would not be just to change to diesel.

knipex

Rodrigo Helpful Repression wrote: »

I'm averaging almost 11l/100km. A good portion of my overall driving is regular long trips. I'd increase the number of long trips if it was costing me nearly half the price per trip. I would be changing the car anyway it would not be just to change to diesel.

11 ltr \ 100km

Are you driving a V8 petrol ??

Are you looking at the 1.6 or 2ltr alteca Diesel ?

I like the Alteca.. To my mind its the best in its class



Diesel will slowly die off over the next 5 years back to 20% or less of the car market. Price differential between petrol and diesel at the pumps will start to close very soon which will eat away at any economy savings.

That 1.6 diesel engine is strong and if serviced regularly (oil and filter every 10 to 12,000km) and driven on (no laboring, regular long trips etc) will easily give 300K plus km issue free. I know one engine with 400k on it all that it ever needed was an aircon pump.

The 2ltr is the same story but needs frequent oil changes and frequent long journey's.. even 50 to 60km blasts on the motorway once a week or so will help.

BUT all else aside that 1.4 petrol engine is a gem, real world economy will be as good as the diesels probably better than the 2ltr especially on short trips.. and nicer to drive..

knipex

knipex wrote: »

11 ltr \ 100km

Are you driving a V8 petrol ??

Are you looking at the 1.6 or 2ltr alteca Diesel ?

I like the Alteca.. To my mind its the best in its class



Diesel will slowly die off over the next 5 years back to 20% or less of the car market. Price differential between petrol and diesel at the pumps will start to close very soon which will eat away at any economy savings.

That 1.6 diesel engine is strong and if serviced regularly (oil and filter every 10 to 12,000km) and driven on (no laboring, regular long trips etc) will easily give 300K plus km issue free. I know one engine with 400k on it all that it ever needed was an aircon pump.

The 2ltr is the same story but needs frequent oil changes and frequent long journey's.. even 50 to 60km blasts on the motorway once a week or so will help.

BUT all else aside that 1.4 petrol engine is a gem, real world economy will be as good as the diesels probably better than the 2ltr especially on short trips.. and nicer to drive..

I think you are confusing me with the op who is looking at the alteca.

I'd be looking at going Golf GTi to GTD.

cros13

Rodrigo Helpful Repression wrote: »

I think you are confusing me with the op who is looking at the alteca.

I'd be looking at going Golf GTi to GTD.

Why would you buy a GTD over a GTE on your tiny mileage?
The GTE has much lower running costs than the GTD.
More fun to drive too...

cros13

cros13 wrote: »

Why would you buy a GTD over a GTE on your tiny mileage?
The GTE has much lower running costs than the GTD.
More fun to drive too...

The GTE would not be overly economical on long runs which make up about 75% of my yearly kms. I only do about 20km a day commuting but could do 500km on the weekend. So while I could drive a GTE on pure electric on my commute (just about) I would end up driving a 1.4 petrol basically a lot of the time on longer trips thus lacking power and not overly economical.

They are also very expensive to buy and I'd prefer the GTD.

I should add that I'll probably do closer to 20k this year as I didn't have the commute until recently and basically all my driving was long trips home at weekends.

Casati

Rodrigo Helpful Repression wrote: »

The GTE would not be overly economical on long runs which make up about 75% of my yearly kms. I only do about 20km a day commuting but could do 500km on the weekend. So while I could drive a GTE on pure electric on my commute (just about) I would end up driving a 1.4 petrol basically a lot of the time on longer trips thus lacking power and not overly economical.

They are also very expensive to buy and I'd prefer the GTD.

I should add that I'll probably do closer to 20k this year as I didn't have the commute until recently and basically all my driving was long trips home at weekends.

Resale on a GTE is a bit of an unknown though and v expensive. Would the new GTi not be way economical than 11 l/km???

Katie9

knipex wrote: »

Do you drive more than 30K km per anum.
Do you regularly do long journeys ? (50km+)

If the answer is no to either of the above buy petrol..

Currently, I drive Donegal-Dublin return trip most weeks, so not far off 30,000 km p.a.

Katie9

knipex wrote: »

11 ltr \ 100km

Are you driving a V8 petrol ??

Are you looking at the 1.6 or 2ltr alteca Diesel ?

I like the Alteca.. To my mind its the best in its class



Diesel will slowly die off over the next 5 years back to 20% or less of the car market. Price differential between petrol and diesel at the pumps will start to close very soon which will eat away at any economy savings.

That 1.6 diesel engine is strong and if serviced regularly (oil and filter every 10 to 12,000km) and driven on (no laboring, regular long trips etc) will easily give 300K plus km issue free. I know one engine with 400k on it all that it ever needed was an aircon pump.

The 2ltr is the same story but needs frequent oil changes and frequent long journey's.. even 50 to 60km blasts on the motorway once a week or so will help.

BUT all else aside that 1.4 petrol engine is a gem, real world economy will be as good as the diesels probably better than the 2ltr especially on short trips.. and nicer to drive..

Hi,

Am thinking of buying the Ateca 1.6 diesel 115bhp

Regards

Casati

Katie9 wrote: »

Hi,

Am thinking of buying the Ateca 1.6 diesel 115bhp

Regards[/quote

It's basically the same price as the 1.4 petrol so unless you need the better performance of the petrol the diesel is better option

jsd1004

Casati wrote: »

Katie9 wrote: »

Hi,

Am thinking of buying the Ateca 1.6 diesel 115bhp

Regards[/quote

It's basically the same price as the 1.4 petrol so unless you need the better performance of the petrol the diesel is better option

Diesel is soon to be banned in London and other cities in the UK. More than likely will follow here. Resale values of diesel will take a hit as all the unwanted diesels arrive here from the uk.

knipex

Katie9 wrote: »

Currently, I drive Donegal-Dublin return trip most weeks, so not far off 30,000 km p.a.

In my humble opinion there isn't a financial case to justify diesel unless you want 4wd.

if you do want 4WD then the 2ltr diesel makes sense.

Personally I would buy the petrol..

Katie9

jsd1004 wrote: »

Casati wrote: »

Diesel is soon to be banned in London and other cities in the UK. More than likely will follow here. Resale values of diesel will take a hit as all the unwanted diesels arrive here from the uk.

Katie9

jsd1004 wrote: »

Casati wrote: »

Diesel is soon to be banned in London and other cities in the UK. More than likely will follow here. Resale values of diesel will take a hit as all the unwanted diesels arrive here from the uk.

Thank you. My concern is that Ireland will have to apply more stringent controls re. diesel cars due to our failure to date to reduce emissions significantly. Diesel price hike, increased car tax, controls re. diesel cars in the city are all options. Reduced resale value of my car seems inevitable.

Would I be better, in the current climate, to play safe and opt for petrol. Difficult to know what to do.

With the mileage I drive currently, most advice recommends diesel option.

Regards.

Casati

Katie9 wrote: »

jsd1004 wrote: »

Thank you. My concern is that Ireland will have to apply more stringent controls re. diesel cars due to our failure to date to reduce emissions significantly. Diesel price hike, increased car tax, controls re. diesel cars in the city are all options. Reduced resale value of my car seems inevitable.

Would I be better, in the current climate, to play safe and opt for petrol. Difficult to know what to do.

With the mileage I drive currently, most advice recommends diesel option.

Regards.

Pre 2005 diesels in London are seeing higher parking charges but it's incorrect to say that new Euro 6 compliant diesels like the Ateca are going to be banned in the near future, unless of course some posters here are writing Londons policy.

There is a risk with our government that they may with little fact or knowledge jump on the bandwagon and increase tax on diesel or diesel cars but with so many voters driving diesel today I could see any major moves in this direction to end up as another water charging policy

The petrol option is a great engine however so if you go with it you'll still see much lower fuel bills versus your Avensis and unlike say buying a new petrol Avensis, you should still be able to trade it in for strong money in three or four years time

jsd1004

Casati wrote: »

Katie9 wrote: »

Pre 2005 diesels in London are seeing higher parking charges but it's incorrect to say that new Euro 6 compliant diesels like the Ateca are going to be banned in the near future, unless of course some posters here are writing Londons policy.

There is a risk with our government that they may with little fact or knowledge jump on the bandwagon and increase tax on diesel or diesel cars but with so many voters driving diesel today I could see any major moves in this direction to end up as another water charging policy

The petrol option is a great engine however so if you go with it you'll still see much lower fuel bills versus your Avensis and unlike say buying a new petrol Avensis, you should still be able to trade it in for strong money in three or four years time

The euro 6 diesels can have very high nox levels. There is no policy in place at the moment but a quick google will show that there is a large momentum behind reducing diesel powered vehicles especially in cities.

Diesel never took off and never will in the USA as their pollution standards are too high. The push to lower CO2 levels by encouraging diesel use in europe was and is disastrous for air quality levels in cities.


http://www.fleetnews.co.uk/news/fleet-industry-news/2017/01/09/nox-emissions-from-euro-6-diesel-cars-more-than-double-modern-diesel-trucks-according-to-new-study

http://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-38170794

Casati

Casati wrote: »

Resale on a GTE is a bit of an unknown though and v expensive. Would the new GTi not be way economical than 11 l/km???

A bit more economical but not much according to people I know who drive them. I'd be averaging around 9l/100km or a little better if I wasn't commuting in traffic everyday as it really kills the GTi economy and that will be very similar on a newer one. To give you an idea on single trip calculation rather than average I probably return about 8l/100Km on a long journey but about 16 or 17l/100km in traffic.

unkel

It's quite likely that the excise duty and / or motor tax on diesel will go up drastically in the near future to discourage cancer causing diesel and to encourage cleaner petrol, or electric vehicles. It's also not impossible that diesels will be banned from Dublin (like they have been banned already from several other major European cities)

As the UK transport minister said a few weeks ago: "I'd think long and hard before I'd decide to buy a diesel car"

Cupra280

There was talk earlier today about the linear reduction in car tax post 2008. But, anything bought from now cannot be changed retrospectively.

London and the UK are different jurisdictions, so given that the OP is wanting to change now, if I was in a similar situation as the OP I would go for diesel.

knipex

Cupra280 wrote: »

There was talk earlier today about the linear reduction in car tax post 2008. But, anything bought from now cannot be changed retrospectively.

London and the UK are different jurisdictions, so given that the OP is wanting to change now, if I was in a similar situation as the OP I would go for diesel.

Either way if I was the OP I would be buying petrol.

However the price differential between petrol and diesel at the pumps WILL reduce. The only reason it hasn't is due to commercial activity. Once they find a way to deal with that (an they will) any economics for diesel in passenger cars will be substantially worse..

grogi

knipex wrote: »

Either way if I was the OP I would be buying petrol.

However the price differential between petrol and diesel at the pumps WILL reduce. The only reason it hasn't is due to commercial activity. Once they find a way to deal with that (an they will) any economics for diesel in passenger cars will be substantially worse..

It won't. VRT on new diesel cars will increase which will eradicate diesels in 10 years time...

unkel

Emissions alone make diesels too expensive to develop in the near future, particularly now that we are paying more attention to the actual emissions. VW and Renault, two of the biggest diesel engine manufacturers in the world, have already indicated they will soon enough stop making diesels.

colm_mcm

That won't necessarily make used diesels undesirable though.

bazz26

And the government won't sit idly by and watch their tax revenue stream trickle away until it runs dr. They will just shift taxes to whatever becomes the new popular form of propulsion. Of course they will reel you in first with incentives like free charging points, grants, etc - just like the Greens did with cheap motor tax nearly 10 years ago. The motorist is too much of a cash cow for them.

FrontDoor

You will see a pronounced move away from smaller diesel engines in smaller cars.

You will end up with what was previously the case. Large cars, MPVs, vans, jeeps will be diesel. Smaller cars will be petrol.

In a decade, both will be gone I'd imagine and electric will start to dominate.

The end of diesel is a long long way away, it sounds like people talking about oil running out reading some of the replies.

They won't dare hit diesel hard in Ireland either as it's far too popular by everyone.

JohnBoy26

Rodrigo Helpful Repression wrote: »

These end of diesel is a long long way away, it sounds like people talking about oil running out reading some of the replies.

They won't dare hit diesel hard in Ireland either as it's far too popular by everyone.

The end of diesel might not be as far away as you think.

Petrol cars are making a comeback and the popularity of hybrids is ever increasing whilst alternatives such as ev's are also making inroads into the market.

colm_mcm

The only end of diesel will be when you can't drive diesel cars anymore.

Casati

unkel wrote: »

It's quite likely that the excise duty and / or motor tax on diesel will go up drastically in the near future to discourage cancer causing diesel and to encourage cleaner petrol, or electric vehicles. It's also not impossible that diesels will be banned from Dublin (like they have been banned already from several other major European cities)

As the UK transport minister said a few weeks ago: "I'd think long and hard before I'd decide to buy a diesel car"

If it's likely that diesels will get more expensive in the future then now is the time to buy by the sounds of it!

unkel

Rodrigo Helpful Repression wrote: »

The end of diesel is a long long way away, it sounds like people talking about oil running out

There's plenty of oil and oil is cheap. But the world would be a safer place if we didn't rely on supply from some dodgy states in the Middle East. And the world would be a healthier place if we used petrol and EV cars instead of diesel cars

Funny enough, euro 6 compliant diesel buses and trucks are actually relatively very clean. Diesel cars are the problem.

jsd1004

colm_mcm wrote: »

The only end of diesel will be when you can't drive diesel cars anymore.

Diesel will always have its place. Big mileage trucks buses agri vehicles. It has lost the battle now. The VW fiasco cemented that. A couple of years ago diesel convertibles were all the rage but the idea seems laughable now...Let the roof down to hear the clatter and enhale the soot and nox.

colm_mcm

More that people aren't buying convertibles anymore.
They were all the rage 10 years ago, 206cc/307cc/Megane CC/Saab 93/Beetle.
Coupes and convertible sales have been replaced by SUVs for the most part, and non premium coupes don't exist anymore.

unkel

jsd1004 wrote: »

A couple of years ago diesel convertibles were all the rage but the idea seems laughable now...Let the roof down to hear the clatter and enhale the soot and nox.

Convertibles, coupes, some fairly sporty cars even. Always seemed laughable to me

jsd1004

colm_mcm wrote: »

More that people aren't buying convertibles anymore.
They were all the rage 10 years ago, 206cc/307cc/Megane CC/Saab 93/Beetle.
Coupes and convertible sales have been replaced by SUVs for the most part, and non premium coupes don't exist anymore.

Saw a 161 6 series coupe today. Beautiful looking car. But it was a feckin diesel. Drop 100k on a car. And get a smelly diesel. Mind boggles

.G.

Hydrogen fuel cell cars on the way too and I think those will be pushed alot because its still a fuel the oil companies can sell you and can use their widespread garage forecourts to get it to you easily. I don't think EV will ever be mainstream until the infrastructure to support them is widespread. Plus Electricity isn't usually greenly generated.

listermint

Rodrigo Helpful Repression wrote: »

I'm doing 15k km per year and will be changing to diesel next as I'm spending too much on petrol. Purchase price similar, maintence same more or less, fuel saving significant. Then you have a higher resale which will most likely wipe out any difference in purchase price.

The scaremongering around buying diesels is getting very tiresome. Even short journeys are not phasing the newer cars post 2012 or a bit later with much improved dpfs etc.

What's quite evident from this thread is you haven't done your maths.

Long and short your just looking at the pump price.

You are doing tiny mileage my friend. I'd prefer to buy something fun with those sort of miniscule miles.

listermint

Cupra280 wrote: »

There was talk earlier today about the linear reduction in car tax post 2008. But, anything bought from now cannot be changed retrospectively.

London and the UK are different jurisdictions, so given that the OP is wanting to change now, if I was in a similar situation as the OP I would go for diesel.

You meant electric surely...

SBPhoto

jsd1004 wrote: »

Saw a 161 6 series coupe today. Beautiful looking car. But it was a feckin diesel. Drop 100k on a car. And get a smelly diesel. Mind boggles

70% of cars sold in Ireland last year was diesel, that should really boggle your mind !!!!!

jsd1004

jsd1004 wrote: »

Saw a 161 6 series coupe today. Beautiful looking car. But it was a feckin diesel. Drop 100k on a car. And get a smelly diesel. Mind boggles

Becuse they are a great engine. Many would have the 35d Bmw engine before any petrol.

listermint wrote: »

What's quite evident from this thread is you haven't done your maths.

Long and short your just looking at the pump price.

You are doing tiny mileage my friend. I'd prefer to buy something fun with those sort of miniscule miles.

I have something fun, but I want more economy and a powerful diesel gives a great compromise. Power, torque and economy.

listermint

Rodrigo Helpful Repression wrote: »

Becuse they are a great engine. Many would have the 35d Bmw engine before any petrol.



I have something fun, but I want more economy and a powerful diesel gives a great compromise. Power, torque and economy.

If you are serious about wanting power torque and economy then electric makes far more sense with your mileage. Those are the facts

knipex

listermint wrote: »

If you are serious about wanting power torque and economy then electric makes far more sense with your mileage. Those are the facts

I don't get this electric loving.. For someone who lives and works and socialises within a 50lm radius perhaps. For someone who lives and works in an urban area with private parking and access to a charger then fine..

For someone who does even semi regular long commutes for work or pleasure then the technology just isn't their yet.

Its not feasible for me to drive to Dublin for a meeting or even to Cork with an electric car.. Range too short and charge times too long..

Casati

knipex wrote: »

I don't get this electric loving.. For someone who lives and works and socialises within a 50lm radius perhaps. For someone who lives and works in an urban area with private parking and access to a charger then fine..

For someone who does even semi regular long commutes for work or pleasure then the technology just isn't their yet.

Its not feasible for me to drive to Dublin for a meeting or even to Cork with an electric car.. Range too short and charge times too long..

It's amazing that posters rave about how clean electric cars are never mention that most electrifying is produced through burning fossil fuels in Ireland. The reality is we have very smelly electric cars too