Why no diagonal pedestrian crossings?

dulpit

Hey,

I've been walking to work a lot more of late, and the route I take has me crossing 2 parts of a 4 way junction (i.e. I need to get from bottom left to top right of the junction if looking from overhead). Most places where I encounter this has the pedestrian lights go green for all 4 junctions at the same time, meaning I can cross diagonally, but there are certain situations where they lights change junction by junction.

It got me thinking, why don't we have diagonal crossings where appropriate? There have been a few times where I crossed the road and then realised the lights were also green to go the other direction, but because I went straight across I didn't have the time to get across second one (this applies for me at one junction which is very wide).

I've seen these sorts of junctions/crossings on TV and stuff before, in different countries. Should/could we get them here?

kidneyfan

Great idea. If you have traffic stopped in 4 directions formally allow diagonal crossing.
Simple and brilliant!

Homesick Alien

I've often thought this myself as I do the same as you. I guess it's more relevant where a city is designed in blocks. They already do it in Tokyo

https://goo.gl/images/APNJkC

1874

Homesick Alien wrote: »

I've often thought this myself as I do the same as you. I guess it's more relevant where a city is designed in blocks. They already do it in Tokyo

https://goo.gl/images/APNJkC

It proabaly makes sense there, a place where people are more inclined or even conditioned to follow the rules and that the rules are thought out, useful and actually make good sense.

Have seen few non perpendicular crossings around and they make for hassle for drivers and I think are less safe for pedestrians.
Not convinced we have the volume of pedestrians to make this viable, where you see it in pictures in places like Japan, there seems to be a much higher volume that benefits/neccessitates stopping all traffic in all directions, it'd just be a balls up here.

L1011

One going in in Maynooth over the summer apparently. On an NTA controlled project, so we may see more.

beer enigma

Oxford circus is probably one of the more successful ones

http://www.atkinsglobal.com/en-gb/projects/oxford-circus-diagonal-crossing

Dravokivich

There's one in Leixlip near the police station. Its been there years. Maybe it just depends what's going on at the junction that's holding it back. Would they want to give enough time to go diagonally across, or would they want to increase the time to allow for it?

FitzElla

There is a diagonal pedestrian crossing in Leixlip, I've driven through it a few times on the way to Maynooth:

https://www.google.ie/maps/@53.3675498,-6.4990488,114m/data=!3m1!1e3

HonalD

dulpit wrote: »

Hey,

I've been walking to work a lot more of late, and the route I take has me crossing 2 parts of a 4 way junction (i.e. I need to get from bottom left to top right of the junction if looking from overhead). Most places where I encounter this has the pedestrian lights go green for all 4 junctions at the same time, meaning I can cross diagonally, but there are certain situations where they lights change junction by junction.

It got me thinking, why don't we have diagonal crossings where appropriate? There have been a few times where I crossed the road and then realised the lights were also green to go the other direction, but because I went straight across I didn't have the time to get across second one (this applies for me at one junction which is very wide).

I've seen these sorts of junctions/crossings on TV and stuff before, in different countries. Should/could we get them here?

Some complications are:

the need to cater for dished tactile paving on the diagonals coupled with the street furniture and other dishing/paving for the regular crossings; and

An increased crossing time for the diagonal "amber" man as it is longer distance.

HonalD

FitzElla wrote: »

There is a diagonal pedestrian crossing in Leixlip, I've driven through it a few times on the way to Maynooth:

https://www.google.ie/maps/@53.3675498,-6.4990488,114m/data=!3m1!1e3

This is probably the only example in Ireland but I'm open to correction.

Mrs OBumble

They're called Barnes Dance crossings. Work well in other countries.

n97 mini

FitzElla wrote: »

There is a diagonal pedestrian crossing in Leixlip, I've driven through it a few times on the way to Maynooth:

https://www.google.ie/maps/@53.3675498,-6.4990488,114m/data=!3m1!1e3

Completely unnecessary, and was part of the restriction of traffic through that junction overall. Not sure whose idea it was, but it was a dumb one.

monument

n97 mini wrote: »

Completely unnecessary, and was part of the restriction of traffic through that junction overall. Not sure whose idea it was, but it was a dumb one.

why exactly was it completely unnecessary? Does nobody use it?

Cookie_Monster

Pedestrians are marginalised in Ireland and this is just one more example of motorised traffic getting priority historically. Hopefully it will start and continue to change

Arcade_Tryer

L1011 wrote: »

One going in in Maynooth over the summer apparently. On an NTA controlled project, so we may see more.

A lot of people already practice the diagonal crossing approach at the junction by the Garda Station. And I don't blame them. The waiting times at the lights there for pedestrians are insulting. Pedestrians are impeded far too much in Maynooth.

HonalD

n97 mini wrote: »

Completely unnecessary, and was part of the restriction of traffic through that junction overall. Not sure whose idea it was, but it was a dumb one.

What a load of nonsense. Do you have any evidence to back up your comments?

HonalD

monument wrote: »

why exactly was it completely unnecessary? Does nobody use it?

There are a number of schools very close to the junction and at opening/closing times a lot of kids cross the junction. Previously there were small left turn splitter islands which added additional crossings for vulnerable road users. You can cross once diagonally where it used to take 3 separate crossings before.

AngryLips

It is very much needed to relieve congestion at the junction of Georges Street and Dame Street in Dublin

uck51js9zml2yt

It wouldn't work here.
You'd have people going on the other diagonal which has no official crossing:)

FitzElla

n97 mini wrote: »

Completely unnecessary, and was part of the restriction of traffic through that junction overall. Not sure whose idea it was, but it was a dumb one.

In fairness to that junction reducing traffic flow through it was a good idea. There are 3 primary schools on one side and a number of large estates on the other side. It is a 50 km/h residential road for locals at the end of the day.

GLaDOS

They'll have to increase the amount of time you have to cross. Some junctions give you about 2 seconds of green before switching to orange. Always feel bad for people with reduced mobility as it puts them under pressure.

n97 mini

monument wrote: »

why exactly was it completely unnecessary? Does nobody use it?

I pass through it every day. The diagonal bit gets very little use. It's not a busy spot for pedestrians anyway. If it was in a town centre I could maybe understand the logic.

Two left-turn on flashing amber filter lanes were removed with the "upgrade" of that junction. They would have benefitted more people.

HonalD

GLaDOS wrote: »

They'll have to increase the amount of time you have to cross. Some junctions give you about 2 seconds of green before switching to orange. Always feel bad for people with reduced mobility as it puts them under pressure.

The amber man time is traditionally calculated on a walking speed of 0.7m per second (from memory) so for a 7 metre crossing, there is the green time + 5 seconds before an all red phase and then traffic starting.

If a pedestrian arrives at a crossing after the amber man has started they should wait for the next phase to cross as they must go faster than average walking speed to cross safely.

If a person has reduced mobility and is a regular user of a junction, some local authorities will look at catering for their needs.

HonalD

n97 mini wrote: »

I pass through it every day. The diagonal bit gets very little use. It's not a busy spot for pedestrians anyway. If it was in a town centre I could maybe understand the logic.

Two left-turn on flashing amber filter lanes were removed with the "upgrade" of that junction. They would have benefitted more people.

That's an interesting observation you've made as:

1. The facility was put in specifically for kids and pedestrians going to and from school. As I stated before, the number of crossings and lanes to cross is reduced by the diagonal crossing.
2. If there are no pedestrians crossing on the diagonal crossing, this is detected by the system and no additional crossing times are applied.
3. As Ireland's first diagonal crossing it was install as a trial. It is a safety measure and helps tidal pedestrian flows. At other times of the day, if there are no pedestrians then it doesn't affect traffic as the pedestrian cycle doesn't run.
4. Left turn filter lanes are not flavour of the month anymore with the NTA in particular and the Department of Transport. The previous islands were substandard, too small to house the tidal flow of pupils attending the schools and facilities for mobility impaired vulnerable road users were installed in the early 1980s.
5. I'm not sure what you mean about the islands "they would have benefitted more people", can you elaborate please?

L1011

If the Maynooth planned one is actually planned (third hand info) I imagine it'll have a takeup at more times of day/the week so would give more data. Not the only place I'd like one in Maynooth for purely selfish reasons - the pedestrian timings at the Celbridge/Straffan Roads junction are so bad that crossing two arms is implausible and you can be waiting rather lengthy periods of time otherwise.

LeChienMefiant

Pedestrians are silent in the current debate regarding provision for non motor road users. It's a bit disappointing. Pedestrians are the worst affected by the complete lack of enforcement of traffic law.

It's anarchy around my area (D2,4,6 border) with no respect for traffic lights, footpaths, road markings or signage. The light sequences on week days are changed to give pedestrians less priority. Even though traffic is queued up solid the green light is timed longer on weekdays. Gridlock going one way, very light but fast traffic the other and pedestrians given no consideration.

It would vastly improve health and well-being of city residents to hugely curtail private motor traffic.

HonalD

LeChienMefiant wrote: »

Pedestrians are silent in the current debate regarding provision for non motor road users. It's a bit disappointing. Pedestrians are the worst affected by the complete lack of enforcement of traffic law.

It's anarchy around my area (D2,4,6 border) with no respect for traffic lights, footpaths, road markings or signage. The light sequences on week days are changed to give pedestrians less priority. Even though traffic is queued up solid the green light is timed longer on weekdays. Gridlock going one way, very light but fast traffic the other and pedestrians given no consideration.

It would vastly improve health and well-being of city residents to hugely curtail private motor traffic.

Is that not for a different forum?

Mr.H

There is also one in Waterford (at least when I lived there 4 years ago). It is/was always used. It's a great idea that only drivers who don't walk anywhere wouldn't agree with

LeChienMefiant

HonalD wrote: »

Is that not for a different forum?

commuting and transport?

HonalD

LeChienMefiant wrote: »

commuting and transport?

My apologies, a different thread.

Chuchote

They call this kind of crossing a "scramble" in Japan, where it's standard for big crossings.
In a lot of places, such as the Kenilworth five-way crossroads, it is routinely practised by local pedestrians. It's a good practice, as it shortens the time needed for crossing.

loyatemu

many junctions in the city centre don't even have 4-way crossing. e.g. here where only 2 arms of the crossroads have ped lights.

LeChienMefiant

Chuchote wrote: »

They call this kind of crossing a "scramble" in Japan, where it's standard for big crossings.
In a lot of places, such as the Kenilworth five-way crossroads, it is routinely practised by local pedestrians. It's a good practice, as it shortens the time needed for crossing.

Routinely practised, but have traffic engineers made provision for it? It is impossible to cross this crossing at Appian Way diagonally within the time allowed, it even has cheese graters on one side to block it off. It seems pedestrians are expected to wait two sequences to complete the diagonal crossing.
Traffic lights in the city seem to be programmed on the assumption that pedestrians will "jaywalk" and that no provision needs to made for them. Unreasonable priority and inadequate time to cross.

Chuchote

LeChienMefiant wrote: »

Routinely practised, but have traffic engineers made provision for it? It is impossible to cross this crossing at Appian Way diagonally within the time allowed, it even has cheese graters on one side to block it off. It seems pedestrians are expected to wait two sequences to complete the diagonal crossing.
Traffic lights in the city seem to be programmed on the assumption that pedestrians will "jaywalk" and that no provision needs to made for them. Unreasonable priority and inadequate time to cross.

No, no provisions for it. The engineers just haven't caught up yet.

I love Sean nos

Chuchote wrote: »

No, no provisions for it. The engineers just haven't caught up yet.

It's deliberate herding of pedestrians. Crossings are not put in for the convenience of pedestrians.

HonalD

I love Sean nos wrote: »

It's deliberate herding of pedestrians. Crossings are not put in for the convenience of pedestrians.

Sorry but you've forgotten in your statement about any pedestrian who's mobility is impaired. If you've full mobility you can run across any road, with or without a signalised crossing.

Chuchote

I love Sean nos wrote: »

It's deliberate herding of pedestrians. Crossings are not put in for the convenience of pedestrians.

Begob, and I thought they were put in for the safety of pedestrians! But if someone wants to act as a shepherdess on our local crossroads, that's fine.

I love Sean nos

HonalD wrote: »

Sorry but you've forgotten in your statement about any pedestrian who's mobility is impaired. If you've full mobility you can run across any road, with or without a signalised crossing.

With restrictions. Besides, it can be risky depending on the road and it's not something that we encourage the young or the elderly to do.
My point stands. Pelican crossings are placed to facilitate the flow of road traffic, not pedestrians. An argument could be made for zebra crossings however.

LeChienMefiant

I hope that kind of thinking is consigned to the past. Private motor traffic has been tolerated in our towns and cities for too long. If motorists believe that they have exclusive rights to circulate unimpeded then that makes it all the more obvious they should be curtailed and put back in their collective box.

magicbastarder

exactly - the notion that in order to move yourself (say) 3km, you need to bring one and a half tons of metal along with you to facilitate that is a little weird.

Orion

L1011 wrote: »

One going in in Maynooth over the summer apparently. On an NTA controlled project, so we may see more.

Where? At the Glenroyal or at the Roost?

L1011

Orion wrote: »

Where? At the Glenroyal or at the Roost?

Roost. Third hand info though

Jamie2k9

There is one in Waterford!

HonalD

I love Sean nos wrote: »

My point stands. Pelican crossings are placed to facilitate the flow of road traffic, not pedestrians.

Could you explain that further as it doesn't make any logical sense?

kidneyfan

Orion wrote: »

Where? At the Glenroyal or at the Roost?

So Maynooth gets one and Kilcock is neglected again!

Dyr

loyatemu wrote: »

many junctions in the city centre don't even have 4-way crossing. e.g. here where only 2 arms of the crossroads have ped lights.

This has become a favorite of dublin corporation, same on the rosie hackett brdige. Nothing says "go f***k yourself" to pedestrians quite like this

Orion

loyatemu wrote: »

many junctions in the city centre don't even have 4-way crossing. e.g. here where only 2 arms of the crossroads have ped lights.

That one is a complete joke. If you want to get to the Liberty Hall or Abbey Street from there you have to cross four times if you follow the ped lights instead of 2 if they did it properly.

I love Sean nos

The staggered junction at Mountjoy Square North/Gardiner Street/Gardiner Place always strikes me as a place that needs even one pedestrian crossing.

HonalD

loyatemu wrote: »

many junctions in the city centre don't even have 4-way crossing. e.g. here where only 2 arms of the crossroads have ped lights.

That's an interesting junction as it was the only crossing of the Liffey river northbound until the east link opened. The arrangement dates back to then, as far as I can remember. At that time, pedestrians were not catered for and a 4-way pedestrian phase was out of the question.

That doesn't excuse ignoring the problem since then.

Dyr

HonalD wrote: »

That's an interesting junction as it was the only crossing of the Liffey river northbound until the east link opened. The arrangement dates back to then, as far as I can remember. At that time, pedestrians were not catered for and a 4-way pedestrian phase was out of the question.

That doesn't excuse ignoring the problem since then.

They did the exact same thing when they built the Rosie Hackett Bridge so its not a legacy problem

Muahahaha

AngryLips wrote: »

It is very much needed to relieve congestion at the junction of Georges Street and Dame Street in Dublin

I thought the Georges/Dame St junction already had pedestrian sequences where all lights go green simultaneously