How much meat do you eat? How sustainable are current meat-eating levels?

http://home.cc.umanitoba.ca/~vsmil/pdf_pubs/PDR2003.pdf

According to this paper, people currently eat way, way more meat than they did in the not too distant past. Only a few generations ago, many people never ate meat from one end of the year to another, and not by choice.

Before agriculture began to be practised, or practised widely, and people lived by hunting and gathering, human population densities were much lower. Even 3- 4000 years ago, thousands of years after pure hunting and gathering became replaced by some degree of agriculture, in Europe in particular, the population of the world was still only in the low tens of millions. ie. maybe 200 times fewer people needing to be fed than nowadays. So it was all well and good people eating a high-meat diet suplimented with nuts and berries 10,000 or 15,000 years ago when the number of people on the planet was under maybe 2 or 3 million and there were plenty of animals to go around. But when many people in a world of 7.4 billion demand as satisfying and high-protein a diet as was eaten by sparse hunter-gatherers in bygone times, it becomes necessary to maintain an evil and emotionally-detached system of farming billions of sentient animals in cages and pens as if they have no emotions themselves, seperating them from their young and basically giving them no quality of life before they end their days in an abbatoir.

While the vegetarian arguments of animal cruelty are valid in my opinion (and I admit I hypocritically continue to eat meat, but not that much) I am concered here about the sustainability from a resources-available-to-humanity perspective. If the whole world demanded to eat as much meat as would actually satisfy their desire, there would not be enough to go around. As elaborated on in the link above, meat is very energy inefficient to produce and to give everyone in the world western levels of consumption would require 67% more land to be devoted to farming the animals and growing their food. And that is just the *current* world population - by the time there are 10 billion people and the aspirations and expectations of many of those people being much higher than now, we will begin to actually feel this scarcity.

People underestimate just how recently and how much our diets improved in this country. Much more meat in their diets has allowed children growing up in Ireland these days to grow way taller than their grandparents were and significantly taller than their parents were also. It seems clear to me that the influence of nutrition on height (through effects of mothers nutrition on you while youre in the womb, direct effects on your growing body out of the womb, epigenetic effects prior to conception etc.) is much more important in determining a persons height than the presence of genes related to height in the the person - tall people who existed in the past would have been even taller if they grew up in times of even better nutrition and todays short people would have been even shorter with worse nutrition.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19208691

And the growth in consumption of meat is much more recent than I think many of us realise or remember. Growing up as a child in the 90s, my typical daily diet was breakfast cereal at breakfast and tea-time and dinner was typically potatoes and maybe 1 sausage or 2 fish fingers or a small bit of savoury mince. Often I would just get potatoes and spaghetti hoops. I always craved to have more meat than I actually got and would eat meat off the floor or my parents plates if I could get it. Only the well off children in my class would get sandwiches which from a 2010s perspective look satisfying and adequate.

Fast forward a few years and when I went to secondary school, kids actually get hot food at lunch time, like chicken inside bread rolls and sausage rolls -- the luxury of it! I still didn't get this and continued to make do with sandwiches, although by this time I had a thin slice of meat in my sandwiches more often than when I was in primary school when bread and butter was the norm. I couldn't imagine parents allowing their children to go to school nowadays without ensuring they got a satisfying amount of meat for their lunch. No wonder they're all so tall nowadays that I feel tiny standing beside them. Also, I would love to know if my experience getting so little meat as a child was widespread at the time or not?..

To add fuel to the fire, cultural changes since the mid 2000s have made people more vain, body-concerned, diet-concerned etc. than before and now you have people eating more protein to gain muscle mass and lose body fat. I see teenagers going around drinking "protein shakes" where 15 years ago it would have been a bottle of coke. There seems to be a lack of self-awareness among people as to how luxurious all this meat consumption is compared to when they were younger or against any context really! This all adds to the demand for limited supplied of meat and other animal protein.

I suppose my general question is does anyone else feel that this growth in meat consumption can continue and should continue? Did you get much meat when you were younger? Do you eat much meat now?

MilesMorales1

Goodness me thats a lot of words.

Yes I eat a fair bit of meat, although I'm trying to cut down a tad.

MilesMorales1

MilesMorales1 wrote: »

Goodness me thats a lot of words.

Yes I eat a fair bit of meat, although I'm trying to cut down a tad.

Yes apologies for it being so long, this is something that I think about a fair bit so I had a lot to get out of my mind!

Fart

Didn't read but, would you not try eating more onions?

eviltwin

We had meat with everything growing up, so did everyone I knew. Vegetarianism was for hippies and celebrities. I stopped eating meat in the early 90's for animal welfare reasons. I went vegan last year and my health has improved a lot. My husband is a meat eater but he rarely eats red meat now and tends to stick to chicken and fish. My kids don't eat meat. I think as we develop our tastes and become a bit more adventurous we are more willing to explore meat free diets and we are more aware of the health benefits of cutting back. Personal choice of course. No one should feel guilty for eating meat.

osarusan

Meat 4 or 5 days a week maybe. Fish once a week on average. Maybe 2 days with neither.

But on those 4 or 5 days, it might be only part of one meal. Breakfast might have meat in it only once a week, if that. Fairly small portions of it too. A family of two adults and kids, and 2 chicken breasts would do us for a dinner.

andekwarhola

Burger.

King George VI

Just having this discussion at work today. I've always been a big meat eater. Always chicken or steak or lamb or duck or fish or pork ribs and sometimes crocodile for dinner. Most often I have meat for lunch too. Ever since I was a young lad I've had a meat heavy diet. Heavy in veg and fruit too but the centre of all of my meals is a dead animal.

I would eat any animal as long as it tasted good. Couldn't give a bollocks if they go extinct. I'd happily pay a handsome fee to personally kill, cook and eat the last duck on Earth.

silverharp

I grew up on meat and 2 veg, it was before all the ready meal stuff took off. Im more a low carb person so I like my meat and protein.

Fart

silverharp wrote: »

I grew up on meat and 2 veg, it was before all the ready meal stuff took off. Im more a low carb person so I like my meat and protein.

Meat and 2 veg...

I'm a hypocrite when it comes to meat, no doubt about it. One thing I can definitely see the world regretting is expanding "Western" meat eating habits to other areas as they become more prosperous.

stimpson

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UhoHwQ0cwIQ

Mr. CooL ICE

Fart wrote: »

Didn't read but, would you not try eating more onions?

He uses them for his belt. Try to keep up

Lia_lia

I don't eat meat. My Mother is a vegetarian. Sister is a vegan. We grew up rarely eating meat. Only if we were at someone's house or something, never really ate it at home. I started eating fish a few years ago but only the odd time.

A lot of people I know say they don't feel full/satisfied if they have a meal without meat. I don't know if that's just a mental thing.

Stigura

I eat meat like a horse ...............

Molsen K

I'm trying to eat more meat. Ideally O'd like to have steak and eggs for breakfast, maybe chicken salad for lunch and then fish or beef stew for dinner.

Molsen K

Lia_lia wrote: »

I don't eat meat. My Mother is a vegetarian. Sister is a vegan. We grew up rarely eating meat. Only if we were at someone's house or something, never really ate it at home. I started eating fish a few years ago but only the odd time.

A lot of people I know say they don't feel full/satisfied if they have a meal without meat. I don't know if that's just a mental thing.

It's scientiffically proven that protein makes you feel more full.

Teddington Cuddlesworth

I saw there was a thread about eating, I got excited.
Then I saw I had to read, my excitement levels dropped so I had a sandwich, now I'm on a steady plateau.
I'm not sure why I'm here but it has my vote.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

I'll admit I didn't read the full OP as it was too long and boring. But, I love my meat. I have beef or pork 5 days a week for dinner and an odd cooked breakfast. I don't care if it's sustainable, to be honest.

TerrorFirmer

I eat what I would have thought to be a normal amount of meat. A chicken sandwich usually for lunch and some form of chicken-based dish again for dinner. I don't always have to have meat with my lunch, but I'd almost never eat a dinner without meat.

DontThankMe

Sorry but I love meat and I don't I could stop eating it.

This song sums up my feelings perfectly!

Paulina Scary Billiards

Paulina Scary Billiards wrote: »

I'll admit I didn't read the full OP as it was too long and boring. But, I love my meat. I have beef or pork 5 days a week for dinner and an odd cooked breakfast. I don't care if it's sustainable, to be honest.

Probably the rough answer most people would give if they were being as honest as you.

Parchment

No meat - havent eaten it since i was seven. Best decision i ever made for animals, the planet and myself.

People love to hate vegetarians and vegans but its actually the right thing to do and they know it too.

Paulzx

Deleted User wrote: »

Did you get much meat when you were younger?

:eek::eek::eek::eek:

Jesus, there's another tribunal in that one

Mr.Plough

Saw it, said 'not reading that', but wanted to scan the post for reference to the fitness industry, as that was the first thing that came to me.

You're post is interestingly difficult to scan, so I basically read through it and you talked about the fitness industry last.

Very boring, but nicely written.

suicide_circus

BEAT THE MEAT

MilesMorales1

I generally wouldn't eat meat for breakfast, mainly cos it takes ages to cook sausages or bacon of a morning. Lunch is usually a butty of some sort, ham or egg. Tea is always meat based.

Lia_lia

Molsen K wrote: »

It's scientiffically proven that protein makes you feel more full.

You can get protein from vegetarian sources too. Beans/lentils in particular are very filling.

scriba

We cut down drastically a couple of years ago. Once a week we roast a chicken (organic) for a dinner and lunches during the week. Other than that, it's either fish or vegetarian dishes (loads of beans, lentils, chickpeas). Eggs for breakfast sometimes.

Consumption of meat doesn't seem sustainable, but with the rate of industrialization and population growth, it's just one of many unsustainable things.

Shenshen

Haven't eaten meat in 9 or 10 years now, hubby's been vegetarian for nearly 30 years now.

I was raised with meat for every meal, every day, but I can't say I miss it much these days. It seems so boring and same-y these days.

I can't imagine everybody turning vegetarian, and I'm not entirely convinced that that would be a good thing anyway. But I would wish people would go for quality instead of quantity, have meat less frequently but when they do, choose meat from an animal that had a decent life and pay that little bit more.

VonLuck

Parchment wrote: »

People love to hate vegetarians and vegans but its actually the right thing to do and they know it too.

No, I believe people dislike certain vegetarians and vegans who think they are better than everyone else. :rolleyes:

Glass Prison 1214

This time last year I watched Cowspiracy, and it opened my eyes to how unsustainable meat consumption is. I began to cut it out of my diet and a few months later I cut it out completely. I have been vegan for six months now and I have never felt healthier or more energetic. I wish I had made the change years ago.

I would never tell someone else what to do, but I do wish more people would watch Cowspiracy to truly understand the impact of meat consumption.

Maximus Alexander

I eat meat seven days a week, usually twice a day; lunch and dinner. It's delicious. Growing up I can't remember a dinner that wouldn't have had a substantial amount of meat in it.

If it becomes scarce then it will get expensive. If it gets expensive enough that I can't afford to eat it as often, then of course I will eat it less.

Junkyard Tom

Who needs meat when you can eat burgers and sausages!

MyPeopleDrankTheSoup

eviltwin wrote: »

My kids don't eat meat

how do they get their protein?

Maximus Alexander

Maximus Alexander wrote: »

I eat meat seven days a week, usually twice a day; lunch and dinner. It's delicious. Growing up I can't remember a dinner that wouldn't have had a substantial amount of meat in it.

If it becomes scarce then it will get expensive. If it gets expensive enough that I can't afford to eat it as often, then of course I will eat it less.

I may very well be wrong, but did you say in a thread before that you were 6 foot 4? That would be interesting to me if you had.

Outlaw Pete

I eat more than I think is healthy.

Like rashers but pork is so intensively reared and pumped full of nitrates and what not that I'd rather not be eating it... no damn will power though and so fry ups always lure me back to the bacon and sausages.

Was recently watching some long term raw vegans on YouTube and it did make me wonder how the hell do it and if I could manage it. Be great to just be able to eat some fruit and feel great.... doubt it's that easy though, despite their testaments.......................

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O6oJA_xhTa8

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9TR8FyZ75l4

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JA743NUIsXg

Surely these people must be taking B12 shots at the very least??

MyPeopleDrankTheSoup

these fcuking food fads... THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH EATING MEAT! and loads of it. sure, they're pumped full of stuff to kill diseases and to fatten them quicker so they can feed more people, but all these additives have been heavily tested and are safe to eat.

it's the greatest food group going. it supplies huge amounts of protein in low calories. and it satiates, makes you feel full so you shouldn't overeat. and it tastes sooooo damn good :-)

Outlaw Pete

Outlaw Pete wrote: »

Was recently watching some long term raw vegans on YouTube and it did make me wonder how the hell do it and if I could manage it. Be great to just be able to eat some fruit and feel great.... doubt it's that easy though, despite their testaments.......................

Surely these people must be taking B12 shots at the very least??

I suppose it is very hard to work out what the exact optimal diet a person should eat is, in fact it is bound to change from person to person surely?
My own hunch, which is clearly as good/bad as anyone elses, is that the healthiest is (not an exhuastive list..)
- low calorie for a start, low sodium, moderate fibre. That takes care of blood pressure, excess weight, and promotes healthy digestion.
- Next that it has at even a small amount of vegetables/fruit to let your body stock up on vitamins that are hard to get elsewhere ("greenstuff", as sailors used to call it when they would go looking for it upon landing on some island after months at sea)
- I'd imagine dairy is totally avoidable while remaining healthy.
- I'd imagine in terms of carb sources, out of our domesticated food-crops which contain much more starch than ancient plant food sources, roots like potatoes are better than grains since they are more similar to the carb sources our ancient ancestors would have most used. I'd guess oats are a better source of fuel than wheat and less irritating and blood sugar spiking - I know that I feel healthier, skin is less red etc. when I am regularly eating porridge for breakfast. Rice I would guess is pretty good for you since it is not as addictive as and is more satiating than wheat bread or pasta. I'd imagine the coarser a bread is the healthier.
- My own hunch is that it is healthier to eat *some* very small amount of sugar than none at all, if only for your ensuring your body continues to know how to deal with sudden spikes in blood sugar.
- I'd say eating a small bit of meat say twice a week and a decent bit once a week would be enough to keep you healthy with the rest of your protein being capable of being supplied through leguiminous plants (and nuts if you'e not allergic) and supplemented with the protein from your carb sources.
- A bit of saturated fat is good I'd say but only a bit and stuff like trans fats is a big no-no. I believe olive oil is a very useful source of fat.
- Added salt, another no-no
- No alcohol is better than any, despite what all the studies confusing correlation with causation tell us

I don't think eating meat 3 times a day or in large quantities in general would be "healthy", even if it leads to you having low body fat. Constipation for one must be killer. Also, surely a nitrogen rich diet places a heavy load on your body in general? Neither can I imagine a raw-food vegan diet etc. being healthy - the fact it would be so hard to stick to and would involve restricting from your diet foods which would have been relished by your ancient ancestors, tells me that it's probably not healthy, but I could easily be wrong there obviously! I'd say most of the benefit comes from sheer calorie restriction.

Nekarsulm

How sustainable are our current meat-eating levels?

If you are talking about the Irish market, we only eat 10% of the beef produced in the Republic.
90% is exported.
Last year, Irish farms produced 535,000 tons of beef for export.
Thats about 10,000 tons a week.
On a six axle truck/trailer combination, fully loaded with 28 tons of beef thats 357 trucks a week leaving this part of the island.

We have lots of room to increase our beef consumption

Junkyard Tom

As an efficiency nerd producing meat is one of the worst ways of utilising tillage farming. Energy cannot be created or destroyed etc. That field that's needed to produce a number of steaks for a few fat cunts will grow enough food for a thousand hungry fuckers.

Maximus Alexander

Deleted User wrote: »

I may very well be wrong, but did you say in a thread before that you were 6 foot 4? That would be interesting to me if you had.

Nope, I'm a comparatively squat 6'2!

Maximus Alexander

Maximus Alexander wrote: »

Nope, I'm a comparatively squat 6'2!

Ah right, it crossed my mind that you mentioned your height before and I thought you were very tall You got your fill of precious protein before your growth-plates fused so!

Nekarsulm

Nekarsulm wrote: »

How sustainable are our current meat-eating levels?

If you are talking about the Irish market, we only eat 10% of the beef produced in the Republic.
90% is exported.
Last year, Irish farms produced 535,000 tons of beef for export.
Thats about 10,000 tons a week.
On a six axle truck/trailer combination, fully loaded with 28 tons of beef thats 357 trucks a week leaving this part of the island.

We have lots of room to increase our beef consumption

While I am thinking more of on a worldwide basis, this post is illuminating for me - thanks for helping me visualise the Irish situation as regards meat produced and consumed.

And on Maximus Alexander's point about how it will simply become more expensive when it becomes scarce - but surely the nature of all economic goods isn't the same? Like these goods are sentient for one thing, and they are also something we need to nourish our bodies so we can't allow them to fall to too low of numbers eg. depleting fish stocks threatened with extinction. And I imagine in a scenario where the market price of a burger is 100 euro, there are going to be knock on effect elsewhere in society and worldwide! After all, one contributing reason put forward for why people were so violent in the past was protein-hunger, and lack of protein in childhood hinders cognitive development. I just have a feeling our species is collectively sleep-walking into catastrophe due to a desire not to have to change their current behaviour or think about the situation - like it is us who live in the abnormal situation eating as much meat as we do, not our ancestors who ate very little. Does it not strike anyone else as too good to be true to be able to have as much meat as we can have, as cheaply and that there is no reason for you to feel guilty about it or anxious that it is going to change and run out?

Nekarsulm

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

As an efficiency nerd producing meat is one of the worst ways of utilising tillage farming. Energy cannot be created or destroyed etc. That field that's needed to produce a number of steaks for a few fat cunts will grow enough food for a thousand hungry fuckers.

Yes, but the thousand hungry ****$rs willing to eat feed wheat are all living in Ethiopia.
Remember, not even our own bread is capable of being made from exclusively Irish grown tillage crops, we import a % of milling wheat from Canada and the USSR.
So unless we all convert to porridge, and grow oats, the argument that tillage to feed animals is wasteful is a false one.
Also, a large proportion of this country has neither the soil type nor the climatic conditions to successfully grow tillage crops.
Grass is the natural crop, and until humans evolve to process this crop, we will continue to utilise animals to convert grass to a food we can digest.

An enormous amount of grass is converted into milk by the dairy herd.
This is processed into cheeses, yogurts, butter etc. as well as liquid milk.
The by-products of the butter industry are also very valuable, in unexpected ways. Casein, the protein element of whey (itself a by-product of the cheese and butter making process) is exported worldwide for use in the pharmaceutical industry.
That Tylenol tablet or antibiotic pill you take is made primarily from casein, with a few added chemicals that actually have the desired effect on your body.
Our local Co-op exports casein to Mexico for this very purpose.
So it's not just a case of getting a "number of steaks" from a field of grass/grain for "a few fat c>nts".

Junkyard Tom

Right. I think you're much more knowledgeable about this than me so maybe you can educate me a bit?

Nekarsulm wrote: »

So unless we all convert to porridge, and grow oats, the argument that tillage to feed animals is wasteful is a false one.

Okay fair enough, but which animals? Isn't beef production the worst of all the meats to produce because the land used could be used to produce grass to feed cows could be used to produce an exponentially larger volume of food?

Also, a large proportion of this country has neither the soil type nor the climatic conditions to successfully grow tillage crops.

Isn't that why we turn the sheep out on the mountains? Honest question.

Grass is the natural crop, and until humans evolve to process this crop, we will continue to utilise animals to convert grass to a food we can digest.

Fair point.

An enormous amount of grass is converted into milk by the dairy herd. This is processed into cheeses, yogurts, butter etc. as well as liquid milk. The by-products of the butter industry are also very valuable, in unexpected ways. Casein, the protein element of whey (itself a by-product of the cheese and butter making process) is exported worldwide for use in the pharmaceutical industry.

That Tylenol tablet or antibiotic pill you take is made primarily from casein, with a few added chemicals that actually have the desired effect on your body.

Our local Co-op exports casein to Mexico for this very purpose. So it's not just a case of getting a "number of steaks" from a field of grass/grain for "a few fat c>nts".

Very good points. I'm outa my depth on the whole farming thing but am interested by it all the same. Thanks for the responses.

Nekarsulm

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

Right. I think you're much more knowledgeable about this than me so maybe you can educate me a bit?



Okay fair enough, but which animals? Isn't beef production the worst of all the meats to produce because the land used could be used to produce grass to feed cows could be used to produce an exponentially larger volume of food?

You need a combination of grass and cereals to produce beef. The cereal proportion is small in comparison to the grass. Indeed, consumer driven fads and fashion is responsible for aspects of current beef industry. People don't like fat in their meat, so leaner continental breeds now dominate the industry. These grow faster and need more cereals to "finish". There is also the restriction on age of beef animals at slaughter. Currently, they must be younger than 30 months of age, or you are heavily penalised, price wise. Indeed the industry move ius towards 24months age limit.Why 30 months? Its a legacy issue from the BSE crisis. Which itself was a legacy issue from Maggie Thatchers deregulation of the rendering industry. Which allowed producers of meat&bone meal process at lower temperatures, thus saving money.
Traditional breeds were slower maturing. Hereford and Angus etc. would have been almost totally grass fed, but taken a year longer to finish. Swings and roundabouts. But these breeds are tastier, due to the veins of fat in the meat.

Isn't that why we turn the sheep out on the mountains? Honest question.
Mountain grazing is a small % of total grazing.
An acre of grass can support a fixed amount of livestock, generally speaking.
A cow is 1 livestock unit.
Six sheep equals 1 livestock unit.
The output possible from your acre is similar. One calf of 500kg or 12 lambs at 45kg, if you see what I mean. Rough figures.


Fair point.

Have a look over on the Farming Forum, folk are generally helpful there.


Very good points. I'm outa my depth on the whole farming thing but am interested by it all the same. Thanks for the responses.

Nek.

Cupcake_Crisis

I don't eat red meat at all really, but I do eat quite a lot of chicken and eggs. The odd bit of fish. It's more because I just don't really like meat than anything else. I'd rather eat my own face than a steak, bleurgh.

Graces7

Very very rare meat in any form here.

I grew up in an age when what you ate was a sign of your social/financial standing and thus meat was prized. Chicken in those days was a once a year food. And poor folk ate parts of the animal we would not give to our dogs now
We were better off so meat every day. Beef on Sundays that lasted until Tuesday.

Partly with me the relative cost when I was on disability.

Then living among sheep and lambs.... raising pet lambs finished eating lamb.

Then finding that meat more than filled me; weighed me down intolerably.

Then came the dreaded oesphageal narrowing and the stuff gets stuck.

And I have totally lost my taste for it. Even the smell..

Yes it is unsustainable and bad for the earth and yes we need to be aware of that. And respect that.

Wondering what the correlation is in the US where they are serious meat eaters and cancer? OP any ideas?

eviltwin

georgiecasey wrote: »

how do they get their protein?

Same place I get mine.

OldMrBrennan83

This post has been deleted.