Attack outside UK Houses Of Parliament — No speculation — Read 1st post

ISIS is not an organisation you need to sign up to, there are no forms to be signed or oaths to be sworn.
I can become radicalised myself in my bedroom without ever speaking to an Isis terrorist or even a radicalised Muslim.
I can go out and do any kind of mad **** I want to, with a sword down Henry St, hacking heads off people, and if I shout Allah ackbar whilst I'm at it, I will be a Islamic terrorist & Isis will no doubt claim it in their name.
Because that's how it works.
It's an ideology, not a sign up. Very few people actually ' join' Isis.

Widdershins

222233 wrote: »

Maybe. Maybe not.

I have had a slightly off topic brain wave. This man was again driving a rental car, as were many of the other terror attackers. Perhaps rental car companies should be given more room to avoid renting to people in certain circumstances...

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Not a will, but a more overt sign of 'why' like chatting to like minds etc.
A terror cell? Missed that, link?



How? Don't hire cars to people who say they want to do a suicide run?
Not sure what you mean.

Like not renting to disaffected looking people :P Apparently he was ''very middle class'' so not quite the poor downtrodden dole claimant, and had contact with his daughters. No real indication of disaffection.

They're investigating Saudi connections for anything suspicious. He was ''exposed'' to Choudary and known to MI5. Last time I looked they were investigating possible cells but in the past 6 hours it says none were discovered (as yet).http://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/killer-was-exposed-to-notorious-hate-preacher-t55856d5c

FrancieBrady

Widdershins wrote: »

Like not renting to disaffected looking people :P Apparently he was ''very middle class'' so not quite the poor downtrodden dole claimant, and had contact with his daughters. No real indication of disaffection.

They're investigating Saudi connections for anything suspicious. He was ''exposed'' to Choudary and known to MI5. Last time I looked they were investigating possible cells but in the past 6 hours it says none were discovered (as yet).http://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/killer-was-exposed-to-notorious-hate-preacher-t55856d5c

Ah only dole people get disaffected from society, who knew.

Widdershins

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Ah only dole people get disaffected from society, who knew.

The examples to illustrate why he might be disaffected included having his benefits cut, being denied custody of his children, etc.
Any other suggestions?
I think it's a case of grasping at straws for any possible alternative reason to radicalisation, at this point..

FrancieBrady

Widdershins wrote: »

The examples to illustrate why he might be disaffected included having his benefits cut, being denied custody of his children, etc.
Any other suggestions?
I think it's a case of grasping at straws for any possible alternative reason to radicalisation, at this point..

Are you misrepresenting me again. I didn't give any examples.
There are any number of reasons most of them probably irrational.

And I am willing to be led by the facts, I haven't had my mind made up since this happened.
And the facts so far, are no connections to ISIL and no reason why.

ilkhanid

Widdershins wrote: »

The examples to illustrate why he might be disaffected included having his benefits cut, being denied custody of his children, etc.
Any other suggestions?
I think it's a case of grasping at straws for any possible alternative reason to radicalisation, at this point..

In that case wouldn't it have made more sense to attack the offices of the Ministries for Community and Social Care or the Department for Work and Pensions instead of random people (several of whom turned out to be foreigners)?

FrancieBrady wrote: »

And the facts so far, are no connections to ISIL and no reason why.

If it walks like a duck, if it quacks...etc etc

Widdershins

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Are you misrepresenting me again. I didn't give any examples.
There are any number of reasons most of them probably irrational.

And I am willing to be led by the facts, I haven't had my mind made up since this happened.
And the facts so far, are no connections to ISIL and no reason why.

BeyondGone offered the examples, I believe you just stuck to the disaffection theory.
They are investigating what they term a jihadist attack, claimed by isil, with interesting information from a colleague of his in the previous article that I shared here. Of course he may have been abducted by mischievous aliens and had a mind control device implanted in his brain, I've seen nothing to convince me that he was not...

Depp

The Fake Sheikh wrote: »

Weird that both those videos posted by Depp have disappeared from YouTube?

Getting a message saying the YouTube account has been terminated on one of them.

Think the videos were removed as the channel that posted them was a third party, so I'd imagine LBC had them taken down for copyright reasons, LBC still have them on their website http://www.lbc.co.uk/radio/presenters/maajid-nawaz/maajids-message-this-is-london-we-stand-together/

donkeykong5

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Widdershins wrote: »

The examples to illustrate why he might be disaffected included having his benefits cut, being denied custody of his children, etc.
Any other suggestions?
I think it's a case of grasping at straws for any possible alternative reason to radicalisation, at this point..

Are you misrepresenting me again. I didn't give any examples.
There are any number of reasons most of them probably irrational.

And I am willing to be led by the facts, I haven't had my mind made up since this happened.
And the facts so far, are no connections to ISIL and no reason why.

Thankfully I am intelligent enough to have been able to make up my mind immediately the murderer killed the innocent people. . He is a murdering scumbag. No excuses. Murdering scum. So glad he is dead. Rip innocent victims.

Depp

cisk wrote: »

Brilliant article in The Times [Paywall] The pandering to Islam by the left is one of the great ironies of our time.

http://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/comment/stand-up-for-our-right-to-criticise-islam-k707stmnj

who wrote this? absolutely spot on!

bbc had a great panorama on this tonight if you can find it. Seems to be from talking to people he knew before his conversion outside of slashing the landlord he was far from the violent thug some are portraying him as but its hard to know at the same time!

FrancieBrady

ilkhanid wrote: »

If it walks like a duck, if it quacks...etc etc

Isn't that why they shot that Brazilian chap and the same methodology used in the Birmingham and Guilford cases?

FrancieBrady

donkeykong5 wrote: »

Thankfully I am intelligent enough to have been able to make up my mind immediately the murderer killed the innocent people. . He is a murdering scumbag. No excuses. Murdering scum. So glad he is dead. Rip innocent victims.

Nothing to disagree with there.

ilkhanid

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Isn't that why they shot that Brazilian chap and the same methodology used in the Birmingham and Guilford cases?

Were the Guildford men and the Brazilian walking and quacking, i.e murdering random people? Well, he was.
All over Europe for years now we have had a rash of people attacking policemen and total strangers, two of them using his MO. In nearly every case, it turns out to be inspired by or done in the service of Islamist radicalism. Occam's Razor.

FrancieBrady

Widdershins wrote: »

BeyondGone offered the examples, I believe you just stuck to the disaffection theory.
They are investigating what they term a jihadist attack, claimed by isil, with interesting information from a colleague of his in the previous article that I shared here. Of course he may have been abducted by mischievous aliens and had a mind control device implanted in his brain, I've seen nothing to convince me that he was not...

I have asked you before to stop lying about what I said.

'Disaffected' is a common word and condition. Free to be used by anyone who wishes to use it.

FrancieBrady

ilkhanid wrote: »

Were the Guildford men and the Brazilian walking and quacking, i.e murdering people? Well, he was

Yes he was killing people like many others have. They were not all automatically members of ISIL or operating on their behalf.

Widdershins

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I have asked you before to stop lying about what I said.

'Disaffected' is a common word and condition. Free to be used by anyone who wishes to use it.

??? And you did frequently use it, how am I lying? The aliens part was my own suggestion, meant as a joke.

FrancieBrady

Widdershins wrote: »

??? And you did frequently use it, how am I lying? The aliens part was my own suggestion, meant as a joke.

I did not give any reasons for why he might be disaffected. You have a very narrow focus for the term obviously. On the dole etc.

Stop lying to try and disparage what I am saying. I am doing what I suggest all balanced people should do. Speculating on the actual facts, not facts we would like to be.

Will I Am Not

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Yes he was killing people like many others have. They were not all automatically members of ISIL or operating on their behalf.

He converted to Islam and used a method popular with Islamic extremists to kill random members of the public.
You have to perform some mental acrobatics to distance him from Islamic terrorism.

Widdershins

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I did not give any reasons for why he might be disaffected. You have a very narrow focus for the term obviously. On the dole etc.

Stop lying to try and disparage what I am saying. I am doing what I suggest all balanced people should do. Speculating on the actual facts, not facts we would like to be.

I wasn't quoting you, apologies for causing offense. And while I disagree with your hypothesis, I'm not disparaging. I got the impression you were suggesting alternative theories rather than the facts that have been presented, because you don't trust those. That's your prerogative! Again, sorry for the offense..

FrancieBrady

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Stop lying to try and disparage what I am saying. I am doing what I suggest all balanced people should do. Speculating on the actual facts, not facts we would like to be.

Insisting on confirmed facts specific to the instance whilst ignoring all wider contextual pointers- which are many and striking in terms of the last few years of attacks in major European cities- is pretty foolish as an approach, would you not agree?

FrancieBrady

Widdershins wrote: »

I wasn't quoting you, apologies for causing offense. And while I disagree with your hypothesis, I'm not disparaging. I got the impression you were suggesting alternative theories rather than the facts that have been presented, because you don't trust those. That's your prerogative! Again, sorry for the offense..

Now after defending what you said and insisting I said it, you say you weren't quoting me???

Bedtime I think. :rolleyes:

ilkhanid

The Fake Sheikh wrote: »

He converted to Islam and used a method popular with Islamic extremists to kill random members of the public.
You have to perform some mental acrobatics to distance him from Islamic terrorism.

I suppose it could have been possible that a gunman might have attacked UDR men or British soldiers in Belfast in 1977 without being inspired by irish Republicanism.

I suppose it could have been possible that a redneck might have thrown a petrol bomb into a black evangelical church in Mississipi in 1964,without being inspired by white suprematism.

Maybe , just maybe , there were other reasons.

But it isn't very likely.

Widdershins

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Now after defending what you said and insisting I said it, you say you weren't quoting me???

Bedtime I think. :rolleyes:

I think it was clear enough. I said the poster called BeyondGone gave examples of reasons for disaffection, whereas you simply stated disaffection as what you seemed to see as a possible cause for the man's actions. I don't have to defend anything, you misunderstood me and I made an effort to clarify, and even, out of politeness, apologised for the offense I unintentionally caused.

Block button time, I think.

FrancieBrady

ilkhanid wrote: »

I suppose it could have been possible that a gunman might have attacked UDR men or British soldiers in Belfast in 1977 without being inspired by irish Republicanism.

I suppose it could have been possible that a redneck might have thrown a petrol bomb into a black evangelical church in Mississipi in 1964,without being inspired by white suprematism.

Maybe , just maybe , there were other reasons.

But it isn't very likely.

I joined this thread when people were talking about sending Islam 'back to the desert'.
My point all a long has been that this may be the work of somebody who has attached himself to ISIL as a cause because of some kind of disaffection or mental illness.
If that turns out to be the case then there is no reason to drive a further wedge between Muslims and the rest of the community.
It is also not a sign of an escalation.
Which was also being claimed.
It is a call for calm and rationality until the full facts are known.

Depp

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I joined this thread when people were talking about sending Islam 'back to the desert'.
My point all a long has been that this may be the work of somebody who has attached himself to ISIL as a cause because of some kind of disaffection or mental illness.
If that turns out to be the case then there is no reason to drive a further wedge between Muslims and the rest of the community.
It is also not a sign of an escalation.
Which was also being claimed.
It is a call for calm and rationality until the full facts are known.

Islamism and Islam are not the same thing, why are most of the people calling out islamism and the hand it played in this in this people within the muslim community? are they trying to fear monger and drive a wedge between muslims and the rest of the community?

Depp

Depp wrote: »

who wrote this? absolutely spot on!

bbc had a great panorama on this tonight if you can find it. Seems to be from talking to people he knew before his conversion outside of slashing the landlord he was far from the violent thug some are portraying him as but its hard to know at the same time!

Matt Ridley
https://twitter.com/mattwridley/status/846266057212006401

FrancieBrady

Depp wrote: »

Islamism and Islam are not the same thing, why are most of the people calling out islamism and the hand it played in this in this people within the muslim community? are they trying to fear monger and drive a wedge between muslims and the rest of the community?

And to cure the problem there were those here suggesting Islam should be sent to the desert from whence it came.
Hence my calling for calm.

ceadaoin.

FrancieBrady wrote: »

And to cure the problem there were those here suggesting Islam should be sent to the desert from whence it came.
Hence my calling for calm.

That statement implies there were several people saying such things. I searched this thread for 'desert' and there is one poster who said that Islam should 'left to the desert' or something. The only other mention of the word is by yourself. Hardly any need to 'call for calm' on the basis of just one comment surely? Perhaps it's yourself who needs to calm down?

Depp

FrancieBrady wrote: »

And to cure the problem there were those here suggesting Islam should be sent to the desert from whence it came.
Hence my calling for calm.

Yeah but the thing is none of the people you are currently arguing with actually represent this and people saying that were in the minority of serious posters in this thread. Look up Maajid Nawaz on what he calls the voldemort effect, all this insistance that these islamist extremists are dissaffected or benefit cuts or whatever else you want to come up with does untold harm to actual reformist muslim voices who wish to speak up against islamism. We need to understand that islamism exists, its 100% is contributing to these attacks in a major way and calling out islamism is completely seperate from calling out islam or all muslims.

FrancieBrady

ceadaoin. wrote: »

That statement implies there were several people saying such things. I searched this thread for 'desert' and there is one poster who said that Islam should 'left to the desert' or something. The only other mention of the word is by yourself. Hardly any need to 'call for calm' on the basis of just one comment surely? Perhaps it's yourself who needs to calm down?

That was an example of what was being said.