The Winds Around Loughgall

Saoirse1981

I play this song a lot.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XxVEsX4RQjU

The little girl at 2.18 and 2.35 ..was me one time .

I know After Hours is a younger crowd, I know its a place for ridicule.
I also know its a place where people have heart.

I am a bit older than some of you. I lost someone close to me, then lost someone else close to me because someone belonging to me killed someone belonging to them........

I dont want to identify myself by saying more but believe that there are good people who do stuff.

Fleawuss

So you're saying you were daughter or sister of one of the 8?

BalcombeSt4

RIP to the Loughgall martyrs & Dessie Grew & Martin McCaughey of the East Tyrone brigade.

Saoirse1981

Fleawuss wrote: »

So you're saying you were daughter or sister of one of the 8?

No I am not. I am someone else....but you see that little girl....she was me from someone else. People holding stuff again you that you had nothing to do with. On another note....myself and a girl were close friends...so close, I kept her photo on my wall...but then something happened,,,,,,,,,,I cannot tell you how painful it is to have someone blame you for the 'sins of the fathers'. A few years later.... I helped a drunken woman in to a taxi...she told me '*You are so lovely'......She did not recognise me, if she had , she would have spit in my face...

That song means a lot to me... don't care what anyone says here....I will forever have love for the men who died for this Country. They did not do it for money , they did it for the love of this island. The fact that some will never see that is sad. They died for this island.

Fleawuss

You sound upset. I don't think AH is the place for advice. There are differing views on the provos but you're not here for that. Good luck.

Saoirse1981

Fleawuss wrote: »

So you're saying you were daughter or sister of one of the 8?

Well No...not quite.
My posts are very deep but personal...and I cannot explain further than that,

I never forget these lads. I don't think the rest of us should either,

Thats all

Saoirse1981

Fleawuss wrote: »

You sound upset. I don't think AH is the place for advice. There are differing views on the provos but you're not here for that. Good luck.

I get upset yes, and I am saying **** I would never say otherwise, and in drink I say it although I would say it sober too....only sober I would say it with more restraint. Without drink I get very upset but I am a private one so I bottle up and say nothing to no one. Its Paddy's Day. I am not looking for advice, I am not looking for anything. I have watched my song and got all in my feelings. I just posted here because I read here every day and I know the folk here will kick my head in but of all the forums here, they are also the most likely to understand me, and some will give me a pat on the back while even disagreeing with me,

They will tell me to fooook off but make sure I get the bus home safe.

This is why I read
After Hours,

I know this forum:)

Unknown Soldier

Really not the place for this, Saoirse198!

Don't Chute!

BalcombeSt4 wrote: »

RIP to the Loughgall martyrs & Dessie Grew & Martin McCaughey of the East Tyrone brigade.

There are a lot of words I would use to describe these people, martyrs is certainly not one of them.

tomwaterford

Don't Chute! wrote: »

There are a lot of words I would use to describe these people, martyrs is certainly not one of them.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martyr


You dont necessarly have to agree with their cause




Though your username is very appropriate for this tread

testicles

This post has been deleted.

bnt

Is this song about the 1987 Loughgall ambush? If that Wikipedia page has its facts even roughly right, then I wouldn't use the word "martyr" either. But AH really isn't the place to re-has ancient political arguments, I suppose.

hungry hypno toad

I is confused?

LordSutch

The thread is a Link to a song that glorifies & mourns IRA people who were stopped from completing a terrorist attack in NI in the 1980's.

I think.

hungry hypno toad

LordSutch wrote: »

The thread is a Link to a song that glorifies & mourns IRA people who were stopped from completing a terrorist attack in NI in the 1980's.

I think.

Glad these terrorists were put down like the dogs they were.

OldMrBrennan83

This post has been deleted.

Jawgap

Live by the sword, die by the sword. Or to borrow the phrase from Mark Urban's book that covered the period, big boys' games, big boys' rules.

I somehow doubt that if the tables had been turned and the 'RA had a chance to shoot up an SAS patrol they'd not have grasped it with both hands and wouldn't put up with much hand wringing over shoot-to-kill policies etc

The only people I'd feel sorry for from that unholy mess was the poor guy and his brother (and their families) who were happening along and were shot. And yes, the squaddies who pumped their car full of bullets committed an atrocity, but the blame does not rest wholly with them.....if the "martyrs" hadn't run the operation there'd have been no shooting.

As an aside, can't believe it's 30 years since this happened!!

LordSutch

Talk about feeding the crocodile, we should have guessed this thread was set up to entice & attract yet another Pro-Provo, Pro-Terrorist argument :-( :-(

I just wish the Bataclan gang had also been stopped before they carried out their atrocity. Well done to the security forces....

I'm finished with this thread before it gets even nastier & is blocked or deleted.

tomwaterford

LordSutch wrote: »

Talk about feeding the crocodile, we should have guessed this thread was set up to entice & attract yet another Pro-Provo, Pro-Terrorist argument :-( :-(

I just wish the Bataclan gang had also been stopped before they carried out their atrocity. Well done to the security forces....

I'm finished with this thread before it gets even nastier & is blocked or deleted.

Tbf....you are it's number 1 contributor so far??

Red Kev

BalcombeSt4 wrote: »

RIP to the Loughgall martyrs & Dessie Grew & Martin McCaughey of the East Tyrone brigade.

RIP to all who died in that conflict, be they innocents, RUC, British Army, Garda, Irish Army, paramilitaries / terrorists on all sides. A pity we couldn't all just live like the overwhelming majority of people in NI want to live; in peace and harmony with their neighbours.

BalcombeSt4

Patww79 wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Aye, this state has a garden to remember men who destroyed 100's of RIC stations in the 1920's who had a much weaker moral justifaction for taking up arms than the men & women of 69. Hypocritical or what, at least be consistent in your selective outrages.

Fleawuss

This thread started as some confused personal issues for the OP. She needs to air those elsewhere. The emergence of the Provo revisionism is just tedious. It would be good if people could look to the future rather than being bogged down in the past. Goodbye.

BalcombeSt4

Fleawuss wrote: »

This thread started as some confused personal issues for the OP. She needs to air those elsewhere. The emergence of the Provo revisionism is just tedious. It would be good if people could look to the future rather than being bogged down in the past. Goodbye.

The emergence of it (not that has been a huge emergence of it) is probably to counter balance the emergence of Free State, Loyalists Death Squads and British militarism revisionism.

BalcombeSt4

Red Kev wrote: »

RIP to all who died in that conflict, be they innocents, RUC, British Army, Garda, Irish Army, paramilitaries / terrorists on all sides. A pity we couldn't all just live like the overwhelming majority of people in NI want to live; in peace and harmony with their neighbours.

I agree with that, but the thread was specifically about the Loughgall massacre.

Your Face

Would mind awfully not posting ****e songs?

I'm not political, in fact, I think those who are have a slight mental retardation.

However this bilge-rat of a song has raised my dander somewhat due its all encompassing direness.
It's the audio equivalent of herpes and herpes, like maudlin auld pish-tunes, should be avoided.

bnt

Whinging about the Brits is such a cliché, even American sitcoms were taking the mickey many years ago. "And now for a sad song ..."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7hwFGqFtKm8

(yeah, it's a crappy video)

BalcombeSt4

Well whatever ones political views are, Loughgall was a huge miscalculation by the British. They thought it would have the effect of diminishing Republican morale instead it had the complete opposite effect and the following 7 years were some of the most bloody of the conflict, 104 people died in 1988 compared to 61 in 1986 and 57 in 1985.

timthumbni

A huge miscalculation..... hmmm maybe they should have let them murder their police targets and god knows how many more over the coming years. Luckily their own friends had given the game up and the sas were able to prevent many, many innocent murders by getting rid of these absolute terrorists.

end of the road

LordSutch wrote: »

The thread is a Link to a song that glorifies & mourns IRA people who were stopped from completing a terrorist attack in NI in the 1980's.

I think.

incorrect. these innocent men were simply murdered for being irish.

Jawgap wrote: »

Live by the sword, die by the sword. Or to borrow the phrase from Mark Urban's book that covered the period, big boys' games, big boys' rules.

I somehow doubt that if the tables had been turned and the 'RA had a chance to shoot up an SAS patrol they'd not have grasped it with both hands and wouldn't put up with much hand wringing over shoot-to-kill policies etc

The only people I'd feel sorry for from that unholy mess was the poor guy and his brother (and their families) who were happening along and were shot. And yes, the squaddies who pumped their car full of bullets committed an atrocity, but the blame does not rest wholly with them.....if the "martyrs" hadn't run the operation there'd have been no shooting.

As an aside, can't believe it's 30 years since this happened!!

the squaddy bigots were fully to blame for those innocent people being murdered for being irish. i can bet that any of them that may be still alive are the typical ukip style bigots who have contempt for the irish as much as other immigrants.

timthumbni wrote: »

A huge miscalculation..... hmmm maybe they should have let them murder their police targets and god knows how many more over the coming years. Luckily their own friends had given the game up and the sas were able to prevent many, many innocent murders by getting rid of these absolute terrorists.

not as many as followed after the SAS murdered people for being irish. nothing near it. whatever their aim it ultimately failed, but then again long term failure is the BA in a nutshell.

end of the road

end of the road wrote: »

incorrect. these innocent men were simply murdered for being irish.

the squaddy bigots were fully to blame for those innocent people being murdered for being irish

SAS murdered people for being irish

They were killed to prevent the attack they were in the process of executing.

If they had been, say IRA activists born in the UK and with UK passports, they would have been killed just as ruthlessly.

I wouldn't say it was great or rejoice, just like I wouldn't if they succeeded...it was kill or be killed. Certainly the shooting of IRA activists, just like Loyalist activists, or members of the British Army, troubled me a lot less than any side killing civilians.

end of the road

Deleted User wrote: »

They were killed to prevent the attack they were in the process of executing.

no no they were killed for being irish, of that i have no doubt. the only evidence of any supposed terrorist attack was from the rucba from all i could ever find on the event over the years.

Jawgap

end of the road wrote: »

incorrect. these innocent men were simply murdered for being irish.



the squaddy bigots were fully to blame for those innocent people being murdered for being irish. i can bet that any of them that may be still alive are the typical ukip style bigots who have contempt for the irish as much as other immigrants.



not as many as followed after the SAS murdered people for being irish. nothing near it. whatever their aim it ultimately failed, but then again long term failure is the BA in a nutshell.

Murdered for being Irish?

I'm guessing the Loughall gang were "martyred" not just for being Irish but also because they were packing 90kgs of semtex and carrying automatic weapons.

Look the Shinners can't have it every way, you can't say on the one hand it was a war and that the likes of that gang were on "active service" then complain when a unit gets it's arse spanked by in an ambush - things like that happen in war!

Jawgap

end of the road wrote: »

no no they were killed for being irish, of that i have no doubt. the only evidence of any supposed terrorist attack was from the rucba from all i could ever find on the event over the years.

What do you think the semtex in the digger bucket was for?

Maybe they were just taking it for a drive to buy it an ice cream:rolleyes:

end of the road

end of the road wrote: »

the only evidence of any supposed terrorist attack was from the rucba from all i could ever find on the event over the years.

So you don't accept the evidence given at subsequent hearings in the ECHR, the footage of the aftermath etc.

And most bizarrely you don't accept the IRA's own statement afterwards that started with "8 Volunteers of the East Tyrone Brigade died on active service while launching an attack at Loughgall"

tomwaterford

[Deleted User] wrote: »

So you don't accept the evidence given at subsequent hearings in the ECHR, the footage of the aftermath etc.

And most bizarrely you don't accept the IRA's own statement afterwards that started with "8 Volunteers of the East Tyrone Brigade died on active service while launching an attack at Loughgall"

The main controversy about this was

The police station was supposed to be empty when it was attacked (it was during a closed period for it-a easy target)

There's some evidence from statements that they drove up to it and drove off again upon seeing people still about....Obviously had a meeting and felt they would take the attack irregardless and kill the officers inside...so drove back circa 5 mins later and launched the attack...

The controversy being the sas put ruc members in the line of fire to carry out an ambush (admitedly to great sucess)

But there is further evidence to suggest (coroners report linked through pat finucine centre. ..but wholl accept that link?) that they took trophies from the dead from the dead



It is without doubt they were attacking the police station and we're cut down....but the stagedy of killing ira members while effective....also made it more lean as it had to adapt


A senior commander of the British said years later that it made the IRA more ruthless in rural areas...as they had killed the cowboys/naive types and unlike in Belfast and Derry where they'd strike to make the most headlines/news....around Tyrone and armagh especially they just wanted to kill/above doing damage....hence they would attack in middle of night or at any time

tomwaterford

tomwaterford wrote: »

The main controversy about this was...

Oh I fully appreciate it was controversial, the whole shoot to kill policy, the allegations that some were executed as they surrendered etc.

And I'd go further and say I had no real issue with the IRA campaign on military installations or targets, and even the RUC. I regard events like Warrenpoint, Ballygawley etc. as completely different to, say La Mon.

But the claim that there was no IRA attack at all was just...bizarre.

end of the road

Jawgap wrote: »

Murdered for being Irish?

I'm guessing the Loughall gang were "martyred" not just for being Irish but also because they were packing 90kgs of semtex and carrying automatic weapons.

Look the Shinners can't have it every way, you can't say on the one hand it was a war and that the likes of that gang were on "active service" then complain when a unit gets it's arse spanked by in an ambush - things like that happen in war!

Jawgap wrote: »

What do you think the semtex in the digger bucket was for?

Maybe they were just taking it for a drive to buy it an ice cream

i wouldn't be surprised if the explosives and automatic weapons were planted. after all, murdering a few irish for being irish would have to be covered up. wouldn't be beyond impossibility where the SAS and or rucba would have been concerned.

tomwaterford

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Oh I fully appreciate it was controversial, the whole shoot to kill policy, the allegations that some were executed as they surrendered etc.

And I'd go further and say I had no real issue with the IRA campaign on military installations or targets, and even the RUC. I regard events like Warrenpoint, Ballygawley etc. as completely different to, say La Mon.

But the claim that there was no IRA attack at all was just...bizarre.

Aye....only look at the aftermath photos...it was blown up
1 of the men was found with the lighter still in his hand ffs and the IRA claimed responsibility for the attack and men who were cut down.....



But there's what they sign up for....it'll only end in a coffin or a prison cell....not a life for anyone to lead

Jawgap

end of the road wrote: »

the explosives and automatic weapons were probably planted. wouldn't be beyond impossibility where the rucba would be concerned.

Lots of things are not beyond impossibility - it doesn't make them probabilities;)

Even for you the above statement is bizarre - do you have anything that would suggest the Brits etc planted the explosives and weapons on the gunned "volunteers"?

And even if they weren't armed, and even if they didn't bring the semtex, what were the bulk of the IRA in that area doing in the town - meeting of the local committee?

tomwaterford

Jawgap wrote: »

Lots of things are not beyond impossibility - it doesn't make them probabilities;)

Even for you the above statement is bizarre - do you have anything that would suggest the Brits etc planted the explosives and weapons on the gunned "volunteers"?

And even if they weren't armed, and even if they didn't bring the semtex, what were the bulk of the IRA in that area doing in the town - meeting of the local committee?

It's not possible.....some were found in the aftermath with the guns beneath the rubble

IE they were gunned down before the bomb detonated???..
.

Is insulting to peoples intelligence to suggest they weren't on an attack?

Jawgap

tomwaterford wrote: »

It's not possible.....some were found in the aftermath with the guns beneath the rubble

IE they were gunned down before the bomb detonated???..
.

Is insulting to peoples intelligence to suggest they weren't on an attack?

I'm not suggesting they weren't on an attack - that's @EotR's ball of crazy!!

end of the road

end of the road wrote: »

i wouldn't be surprised if the explosives and automatic weapons were planted. after all, murdering a few irish for being irish would have to be covered up. wouldn't be beyond impossibility where the SAS and or rucba would have been concerned.

Seriously?

And you think the IRA made up the statement about IRA activity and IRA members? Maybe the IRA was all constructed by the Brits as part of your plot to kill Irish people, fake terrorist organisations and non attacks to kill groups of Irish men who just happened to collide into a barracks wall with a JCB...

end of the road

Deleted User wrote: »

Seriously?

And you think the IRA made up the statement about IRA activity and IRA members? Maybe the IRA was all constructed by the Brits as part of your plot to kill Irish people, fake terrorist organisations and non attacks to kill groups of Irish men who just happened to collide into a barracks wall with a JCB...

the ira existed as it freed northern ireland from the jaws of sectarian rule which had been supported by britain, for which the majority are most greatful as the sectarian orange state had to go. britain createed the provisional ira via it's support of sectarian rule.

Jawgap

end of the road wrote: »

the ira existed as it freed northern ireland from the jaws of sectarian rule which had been supported by britain, for which the majority are most greatful as the sectarian orange state had to go. britain createed the provisional ira via it's support of sectarian rule.

You seem to be suggesting an "effect and cause" relationship!! Probably not strange in your world, but here in the real world it's not how it works!

end of the road

end of the road wrote: »

the ira existed...

And their statement saying Loughgall was attacked by their volunteers...did that exist?

Why do you disregard the IRA statement about IRA members carrying out an IRA attack and claim that the only evidence of this came from RUC sources and it was a set up?

end of the road

Deleted User wrote: »

And their statement saying Loughgall was attacked by their volunteers...did that exist?

Why do you disregard the IRA statement about IRA members carrying out an IRA attack and claim that the only evidence of this came from RUC sources and it was a set up?

because given the aims of the RUC and BA to uphold sectarian rule and kill irish citizens where possible, and the tendantsy for groups to make statements in relation to eledged incidents to look good, nothing can be ruled out

Jawgap

end of the road wrote: »

because given the aims of the RUC and BA to uphold sectarian rule and kill irish citizens where possible, and the tendantsy for groups to make statements in relation to eledged incidents to look good, nothing can be ruled out

So, 'fake news' is your response?

......and this grand conspiracy......the lack of an attack, the planting of weapons, the circulation of fictitious statements......etc.......everyone in that conspiracy has managed to keep quiet over the last three decades? No talking to reporters? No memoirs? No internet postings?

......if that's the case then it must be unique among conspiracies!!

....are are you suggesting that perhaps the Shinners and the 'RA were content to collude with the British security establishment because the outcome of the operation / ambush at Loughgall played into both their respective narratives?

end of the road

end of the road wrote: »

because given the aims of the RUC and BA to uphold sectarian rule and kill irish citizens where possible, and the tendantsy for groups to make statements in relation to eledged incidents to look good, nothing can be ruled out

Your theory is that the IRA made statements to shore up this alleged British policy of killing as many Irish people as possible...you do know that it's complete fantasy and raving?

You also do those men a serious disservice, by denying them what they themselves would want, to be remembered for giving their lives on active service.

corner of hells

Deleted User wrote: »

end of the road wrote: »

because given the aims of the RUC and BA to uphold sectarian rule and kill irish citizens where possible, and the tendantsy for groups to make statements in relation to eledged incidents to look good, nothing can be ruled out

Your theory is that the IRA made statements to shore up this alleged British policy of killing as many Irish people as possible...you do know that it's complete fantasy and raving?

You also do those men a serious disservice, by denying them what they themselves would want, to be remembered for giving their lives on active service.

I think EoTR might have passed out , Conor.

Yamanoto

end of the road wrote: »

incorrect. these innocent men were simply murdered for being irish.

I think you've outdone yourself there eotr, which is quite some feat to be fair.

timthumbni

end of the road wrote: »

no no they were killed for being irish, of that i have no doubt. the only evidence of any supposed terrorist attack was from the rucba from all i could ever find on the event over the years.

In next weeks episode eotr explains how years of his extensive research has caused him to believe that ww2 was faked in a Hollywood film studio and that hitler crash landed on the moon and lived out his days eating cheese (that the moon is made of) with elvis, lord lucan and Shergar.