ICBF Controversy

Future Farmer

High Drama at noon!

"ICBF confirms that the data coming through from the Spring 2017 calving season points to the need to re-adjust the fertility predictions (circa 2 days calving interval, 1% decrease in survival) along with minor adjustments to milk production. Those adjustments will be included in the new AI bull evaluation so that farmers can take advantage of this information when selecting their bull panels for 2017."

https://www.icbf.com/wp/?p=7968

GiantPencil

I'm not a dairy man, what are they noticing with all the data they now have, are they over estimating animals or something?

ganmo

Not as bad as I feared
I had visions of a data breach

Bellview

We can be cynical and say that while there is a lot of good data in icbf..there is also a lot of bad data..but I'm coming from the beef side

patsy_mccabe

Hardly high drama, in fairness.

oneten

Future Farmer wrote: »

High Drama at noon!

"ICBF confirms that the data coming through from the Spring 2017 calving season points to the need to re-adjust the fertility predictions (circa 2 days calving interval, 1% decrease in survival) along with minor adjustments to milk production. Those adjustments will be included in the new AI bull evaluation so that farmers can take advantage of this information when selecting their bull panels for 2017."

https://www.icbf.com/wp/?p=7968

you need to get out more !

Bellview

Looks like there will be more fun with potential legal case with lic

Future Farmer

patsy_mccabe wrote: »

Hardly high drama, in fairness.

Hear some bulls may drop by up to €80 EBI points that will possibly effect guys breeding decisions, bull selection, AI companies bull slection....

It's a major mistake.

Future Farmer

Bellview wrote: »

Looks like there will be more fun with potential legal case with lic

Did you see LIC published genomic Eurogene bulls in their UK sire catalogue?

http://licnz.com/catalogues/2017-LIC-UK-Sire-Catalogue/links/assets/basic-html/index.html#48

ganmo

Future Farmer wrote: »

Hear some bulls may drop by up to €80 EBI points that will possibly effect guys breeding decisions, bull selection, AI companies bull slection....

It's a major mistake.

aren't all ebis being reduced to reflect the average animal in the national herd?

yewtree

In fairness they owned up to the mistake and there is time for lads to change bulls.
I thought the reduction in ebi was closer to €30.
Don't think it will have a massive effect

Keepgrowing

yewtree wrote: »

In fairness they owned up to the mistake and there is time for lads to change bulls.
I thought the reduction in ebi was closer to €30.
Don't think it will have a massive effect

Dropping EBI makes no odds, twill be the same for all.

LIC on the other hand should be told by every farmer to fold up their tent and phuck off till they learn some manners. I've no problem if they actually wanted to buy and test some bulls.

I've dealt with them from day 1 and bought 100% of our straws from them, not now deal done with another company as of last month

GrasstoMilk

Keepgrowing wrote: »

Dropping EBI makes no odds, twill be the same for all.

LIC on the other hand should be told by every farmer to fold up their tent and phuck off till they learn some manners. I've no problem if they actually wanted to buy and test some bulls.

I've dealt with them from day 1 and bought 100% of our straws from them, not now deal done with another company as of last month

Which company have you moved too?

Keepgrowing

GrasstoMilk wrote: »

Which company have you moved too?

Dovea

yewtree

Keepgrowing wrote: »

Dropping EBI makes no odds, twill be the same for all.

LIC on the other hand should be told by every farmer to fold up their tent and phuck off till they learn some manners. I've no problem if they actually wanted to buy and test some bulls.

I've dealt with them from day 1 and bought 100% of our straws from them, not now deal done with another company as of last month

Have used LIC in past and happy with their genetics. I was very disappointed with their carry on this year and at least the icbf stood up to them and told them where to go with their contracto.
Icbf arent perfect but we are lot better off with them in the industry

Bellview

yewtree wrote:

Have used LIC in past and happy with their genetics. I was very disappointed with their carry on this year and at least the icbf stood up to them and told them where to go with their contracto. Icbf arent perfect but we are lot better off with them in the industry

I think there are 2 sides to the story here as icbf are good at a carry on too and also need to learn some manners... again mine is a beef view.

RightTurnClyde

I don't understand the animosity towards LIC. Am I right in saying they are a NZ farmer owned COOP. Are they not just doing the right thing by their shareholders and farmers.
If the shoe was on the other foot....

stretch film

RightTurnClyde wrote: »

I don't understand the animosity towards LIC. Am I right in saying they are a NZ farmer owned COOP. Are they not just doing the right thing by their shareholders and farmers.
If the shoe was on the other foot....

The latest move to withhold the highest merit bulls was not in the spirit of compromise.

Keepgrowing

RightTurnClyde wrote: »

I don't understand the animosity towards LIC. Am I right in saying they are a NZ farmer owned COOP. Are they not just doing the right thing by their shareholders and farmers.
If the shoe was on the other foot....

They may well be, but that's not my gripe. They wanted me to sign a contract prohibiting me from selling my stock to the highest bidder. If they can do this with a bull how long before they try with my cows.

Coolfresian

Keepgrowing wrote: »

They may well be, but that's not my gripe. They wanted me to sign a contract prohibiting me from selling my stock to the highest bidder. If they can do this with a bull how long before they try with my cows.

Not really informed on it but the contract doesn't apply this year I'm told? I'm actually changing from my usual ai company this year for the first time since I started farming and lic are supplying all the straws now. Ignoring the contract their bulls look impressive.

Keepgrowing

Coolfresian wrote: »

Not really informed on it but the contract doesn't apply this year I'm told? I'm actually changing from my usual ai company this year for the first time since I started farming and lic are supplying all the straws now. Ignoring the contract their bulls look impressive.

They have excellent bulls but sometimes I have to draw the line.
They're not the only company and I'm still cross breeding just with a complete out cross

Bellview

stretch film wrote:

The latest move to withhold the highest merit bulls was not in the spirit of compromise.

In fairness icbf didn't move much either. Lic paid to develop the genetics and from a commercial point of view I agree with lic

yewtree

stretch film wrote: »

The latest move to withhold the highest merit bulls was not in the spirit of compromise.

+1 on this seems particularly harsh on the farmers that have used their bulls for years. I would be slow to use them again.

pedigree 6

Bellview wrote: »

In fairness icbf didn't move much either. Lic paid to develop the genetics and from a commercial point of view I agree with lic

Lic paid farmers to use their straws and develop the genetics??
I think your grudge with icbf is clouding your judgment on this whole saga.

Bellview

pedigree 6 wrote:

Lic paid farmers to use their straws and develop the genetics?? I think your grudge with icbf is clouding your judgment on this whole saga.

Not a grudge. My only point is that icbf see themselves as the only point of view.
I'm sure if you speak to ant ai org here the straw is the cheapest cost..there is a lot of infrastructure that goes around any ai business. If lic invest a lot of cash in infrastructure then why can't they benefit from their investment.
I used to have a balanced view on icbf in that they had the farmers interest at their core but ask icbf to attend a farmers meeting on the genomic scheme to explain the stars and they won't show...

pedigree 6

Bellview wrote: »

Not a grudge. My only point is that icbf see themselves as the only point of view.
I'm sure if you speak to ant ai org here the straw is the cheapest cost..there is a lot of infrastructure that goes around any ai business. If lic invest a lot of cash in infrastructure then why can't they benefit from their investment.
I used to have a balanced view on icbf in that they had the farmers interest at their core but ask icbf to attend a farmers meeting on the genomic scheme to explain the stars and they won't show...

What if Dovea came up with a contract that to use their bulls you could not sell the resulting bulls from your cows to any other AI station or were prohibited from taking straws yourself from your bulls and selling them, would you sign?

Bellview

pedigree 6 wrote:

What if Dovea came up with a contract that to use their bulls you could not sell the resulting bulls from your cows to any other AI station or were prohibited from taking straws yourself from your bulls and selling them, would you sign?

Personally it would not be a problem. If you take the number of calves born how many get into ai.. super small number. Secondly when using the semen is your sole objective to breed a calf for ai... using these two data points I would not have an issue signing..but as I mentioned before I'm in the beef side..but if I was placed with using best bull for my herd and I sign a contract then no problem.
There is a lot of emotion around lic and icbf and it in a storm in a teacup that icbf along with the journal have made headline News about this..pity as good dairy genetics not available in ireland.. icbf need to spend some time farming and less behind the computer and start using common senses here as icbf are projected as being the national herd protectors

pedigree 6

Bellview wrote: »

Personally it would not be a problem. If you take the number of calves born how many get into ai.. super small number. Secondly when using the semen is your sole objective to breed a calf for ai... using these two data points I would not have an issue signing..but as I mentioned before I'm in the beef side..but if I was placed with using best bull for my herd and I sign a contract then no problem.
There is a lot of emotion around lic and icbf and it in a storm in a teacup that icbf along with the journal have made headline News about this..pity as good dairy genetics not available in ireland.. icbf need to spend some time farming and less behind the computer and start using common senses here as icbf are projected as being the national herd protectors

Can i ask what do you do?

You obviously use the services of icbf.
Are you a pedigree breeder?

Bellview

pedigree 6 wrote:

You obviously use the services of icbf. Are you a pedigree breeder?

pedigree 6 wrote:

Can i ask what do you do?

Yes I use icbf alright. Breed pedigree angus so as a breed maternal scores well but the frustration I have with icbf is the effort they and the journal have made last spring discrediting pedigree breeders saying bulls not breeding calves and breeders being dishonest.
In both cases icbf used wrong data or failed in policing their own program. When they stated no calves they used the calving reports..but we all know farmers who don't register their calf sire..so a caveat should have been issued. On the breeders that were caught filling in false data ie not recording sections..these guys were in the icbf maternal program. When these folks were caught icbf did not name and shame , dont buy bulls from those caught and kick them out of program so to put discipline in their program...instead they decided to go to the journal and paint all breeders in the same bad light and use it to push ahead with the whole herd program..
Rant over but icbf appear to have good intentions but their approach at times leaves a lot to be desired.

mahoney_j

pedigree 6 wrote: »

What if Dovea came up with a contract that to use their bulls you could not sell the resulting bulls from your cows to any other AI station or were prohibited from taking straws yourself from your bulls and selling them, would you sign?

I wouldn't ,lads need to look at bigger picture here .i back the icbf 100% on there stance with lic and the contract issue .they had some cheek attempting to rail road farmers into it in the first place .if a farmer has a bull calf with figures good enough to make ai then its his/hers choice as to whom and when it's is sold .no matter what straw is used it ain't worth a ****e without a good cow

freedominacup

mahoney_j wrote: »

I wouldn't ,lads need to look at bigger picture here .i back the icbf 100% on there stance with lic and the contract issue .they had some cheek attempting to rail road farmers into it in the first place .if a farmer has a bull calf with figures good enough to make ai then its his/hers choice as to whom and when it's is sold .no matter what straw is used it ain't worth a ****e without a good cow

Tbh lic have a neck like a jockeys bollix to be talking about ip. Afaik lic have never bred a bull in their lives they simply have a business model based on buying other businesses ip. The cow is a far more important in the breeding equation than any bull will ever be. I'd revoke their licence to sell in this country id I had a say in the matter. I certainly won't be dealing with eurogene again as long as they have an association with that shower of chancers.

Brown Podzol

Farmers signed MSA's giving them no choice on who they can sell to, whatever the price. Now this LIC contract. Seed companies at the same thing around the world. If we are not careful we will become just a medium for suits to become wealthy at farmers expense

J.O. Farmer

freedominacup wrote: »

The cow is a far more important in the breeding equation than any bull will ever be. I'd revoke their licence to sell in this country id I had a say in the matter. I certainly won't be dealing with eurogene again as long as they have an association with that shower of chancers.

Last time I checked there's only 50% input into the calf from the cow and the other 50% from the bull in terms of genetics.
A bull can father more calves in a single herd in one season than any cow can have in her lifetime be that for better or worse.
As for the issue of IP I'm assuming the bulls were bred through selective breeding rather than genetic engineering. I don't see where the IP is. Is it not dodgy ground ethically if not legally to be trying to claim rights to naturally occurring genetics.
How enforceable is the contract. Have they a legal claim to the IP. For example I can sign a contract to sell you my neighbours bull but you can't enforce the contract as I have no right to sell you my neighbours bull as I don't own it.

ganmo

J.O. Farmer wrote: »

Last time I checked there's only 50% input into the calf from the cow and the other 50% from the bull in terms of genetics.
A bull can father more calves in a single herd in one season than any cow can have in her lifetime be that for better or worse.
As for the issue of IP I'm assuming the bulls were bred through selective breeding rather than genetic engineering. I don't see where the IP is. Is it not dodgy ground ethically if not legally to be trying to claim rights to naturally occurring genetics.
How enforceable is the contract. Have they a legal claim to the IP. For example I can sign a contract to sell you my neighbours bull but you can't enforce the contract as I have no right to sell you my neighbours bull as I don't own it.

Emm yes and no. The dam has control over 'turning on' certain genes. It's why a mule(donkey mother +horse sire) and a hinny(horse mother and donkey sire) look different. The research field is called epigenetics

J.O. Farmer

ganmo wrote: »

Emm yes and no. The dam has control over 'turning on' certain genes. It's why a mule(donkey mother +horse sire) and a hinny(horse mother and donkey sire) look different. The research field is called epigenetics

Well if you really want to get specific the mother provides all the mitochondrial DNA.
There are also a lot of external factors which means that the phenotype is different to the genotype.

oneten

Brown Podzol wrote: »

Farmers signed MSA's giving them no choice on who they can sell to, whatever the price. Now this LIC contract. Seed companies at the same thing around the world. If we are not careful we will become just a medium for suits to become wealthy at farmers expense

Too late

ganmo

J.O. Farmer wrote: »

Well if you really want to get specific the mother provides all the mitochondrial DNA.
There are also a lot of external factors which means that the phenotype is different to the genotype.

Forgot about that bit. And the mitochondrial DNA contains a lot of the energy regulation genes

Bellview

Brown Podzol wrote:

Farmers signed MSA's giving them no choice on who they can sell to, whatever the price. Now this LIC contract. Seed companies at the same thing around the world. If we are not careful we will become just a medium for suits to become wealthy at farmers expense

What is the possible number of bulls that could be impacted. A number will put better context on this .. this is reason why I feel it's a storm in a teacup.
On icbf the board has a strong ai influence so there may be a commercial agenda there also. A number of the icbf folks are related or closely connected to the folks that objected to bova getting a license to do ai many years ago...and bova are viewed as a positive change..so maybe a handful of bulls that lic retain may not be the end of the world..and might help icbf up its game more

cute geoge

Imo these high ebi genomic bulls are all a big cod .
This craic is going on with the last 10 years or more and what% of these high ebi genomic bulls become daughter proven is what i would love to know.

bogman_bass

cute geoge wrote: »

Imo these high ebi genomic bulls are all a big cod .
This craic is going on with the last 10 years or more and what% of these high ebi genomic bulls become daughter proven is what i would love to know.

Well...all of them.
To be daughter proven you just have to wait for a bull to have daughters milking. As long as you have daughters milking you have a daughter proven bull so they will all be in time.

The reason that you don't hear about them is there is only demand for a handful of daughter proven Bulls any more

jaymla627

bogman_bass wrote: »

Well...all of them.
To be daughter proven you just have to wait for a bull to have daughters milking. As long as you have daughters milking you have a daughter proven bull so they will all be in time.

The reason that you don't hear about them is there is only demand for a handful of daughter proven Bulls any more

It's very much a Irish thing re daughter proven bulls, for good our bad 90% plus of Irish farmers want the next best genomic Bulls year on year and totally disregard using proven bulls, no matter how good they are, in the us/uk you still have 10 year old plus proven bulls in serious demand and quiet often supplies are totally exhausted once a bull pops his clogs.....
Funny thing here is a lot of Ai Bulls are happy meals before their 1st crop of daughters even calve down

mahoney_j

jaymla627 wrote: »

It's very much a Irish thing re daughter proven bulls, for good our bad 90% plus of Irish farmers want the next best genomic Bulls year on year and totally disregard using proven bulls, no matter how good they are, in the us/uk you still have 10 year old plus proven bulls in serious demand and quiet often supplies are totally exhausted once a bull pops his clogs.....
Funny thing here is a lot of Ai Bulls are happy meals before their 1st crop of daughters even calve down

Us U.K. Is more liquid milk market where high volume is wanted /needed???,never mind ****e fertility short lactations .always Mazes me the icbf genomics bashing brigade .😂I Nd many others with proven figures are restatement to how well it's working .its about delivering a suitable cow for Irish conditions and its delievering in spades

yewtree

cute geoge wrote: »

Imo these high ebi genomic bulls are all a big cod .
This craic is going on with the last 10 years or more and what% of these high ebi genomic bulls become daughter proven is what i would love to know.

All the genomic bulls become proven eventually.
If genomics didn't work the bulls figures would collapse when his daughters start milking, this doesn't happen and the genomic proofs are very close to what there daughter proven figures are for the majority of bulls.
On the bull search in icbf your can see all the evaluations done on a bull.
All genomics does is shorten the generation interval and allows a greater number of bulls to be testede so there is greater genetic pregress.
All this information is freely available on icbf there is no conspiracy. You can go back and compare a genomic proofs to the daughter proven figures.

Buford T. Justice XIX

bogman_bass wrote: »

Well...all of them.
To be daughter proven you just have to wait for a bull to have daughters milking. As long as you have daughters milking you have a daughter proven bull so they will all be in time.

The reason that you don't hear about them is there is only demand for a handful of daughter proven Bulls any more

The reason being that they are generally lower genetic merit by the time they are proven.

ganmo

Buford T. Justice V wrote: »

The reason being that they are generally lower genetic merit by the time they are proven.

Sometimes, but it could also be that the new generation is better

Buford T. Justice XIX

ganmo wrote: »

Sometimes, but it could also be that the new generation is better

For sure!

Genomics has shortened the time between testing one generation and a new, better generation appearing. The speed of improvement each year has been spectacular, tbh.

The use of multiple sires of high genetic merit and low reliability together means that the reliability of those sires, as a group, is very high so farmers using them are, in effect, using a high EBI, high reliability sire on their cows each year. The very best of those will be fairly widely used before being superseded by an even better generation of sires in a year or two so there will still be a good selection of bloodlines to use as the newest sires will not be widely related to the general population of cattle. Unlike the old days of a few very widely used proven sires and lots of their descendants in the general population.

bogman_bass

Buford T. Justice V wrote: »

bogman_bass wrote: »

Well...all of them.
To be daughter proven you just have to wait for a bull to have daughters milking. As long as you have daughters milking you have a daughter proven bull so they will all be in time.

The reason that you don't hear about them is there is only demand for a handful of daughter proven Bulls any more

The reason being that they are generally lower genetic merit by the time they are proven.

No the reason being is because the bar has been raised by the time they're proven.
In general they have the same genetic merit but breeding has moved on in those 3 years

Bellview

Interesting reading on Hereford Facebook page. More a gripe with more poor reporting in yhe journal..but articles like this only drive emotional debate not factual which is a shame. The journal needs to show maturity when reporting around icbf and not pure bias that we normally see

Bellview

This week's journal interesting reading with the keystone contracts. Looks like icbf have known about these contracts and did not stop ncbc.. contradicts lic stance. Unfortunately this is not the first time that icbf seem to apply rules as they meet them.. lic will have a strong argument now.. icbf needs to ensure it thinks with a farmers lenses and not on commercial lenses of some of its board membes

alps

Bellview wrote: »

This week's journal interesting reading with the keystone contracts. Looks like icbf have known about these contracts and did not stop ncbc.. contradicts lic stance. Unfortunately this is not the first time that icbf seem to apply rules as they meet them.. lic will have a strong argument now.. icbf needs to ensure it thinks with a farmers lenses and not on commercial lenses of some of its board membes

Time for Micheal Doran to crack the whip. The conduct of some organisations in this country who touted the line "by farmers for farmers" is sickening to the core.

Let's hope Doran, is insulated enough and tough enough to deal with these organisations.

The great sell out of the past, in my opinion, was to allow genomic bulls on the active list, and it is my belief that this was done with the commercial wellbeing of one partitular outfit in mind.

Future Farmer

Bellview wrote: »

This week's journal interesting reading with the keystone contracts. Looks like icbf have known about these contracts and did not stop ncbc.. contradicts lic stance. Unfortunately this is not the first time that icbf seem to apply rules as they meet them.. lic will have a strong argument now.. icbf needs to ensure it thinks with a farmers lenses and not on commercial lenses of some of its board membes

Keystone herds are the top herds supplied matched matings, the latest genetics, discount straws, genomic testing and other benefits to breed bulls etc. PLUS if NCBC don't want them they can sell to anyone!

LIC wanted to limit whom their customers could sell too, LIC don't have a stronger argument now, it's not the same thing!

LIC can bring in their contract if they want, who is stopping them?