Coast Guard helicopter missing of Mayo coast.

source

http://www.rte.ie/news/2017/0314/859533-coastguard-mayo-incident/

Thoughts with family, friends and colleagues at this difficult time.

Still hoping for a good outcome.

degsie

Hopefully training kicked in and there's a chance.

TallGlass

Just reading the bad news there about this. Hopefully all are well, lets not hope the worst just yet. The naval community do come in strong in times of distress in terms of them turning out/around vessels/small craft to help with search and rescue events in times like these.

TallGlass

RTE reporting one rescued (in critical condition), three still missing...

Larbre34

Could not believe this news this morning, brought memories of Tramore flooding back. Praying hard for them all. All thoughts with the families and the services working hard on site today

ratracer

Very tough news, thoughts with their families at this time.

flazio

Captain Dara Fitzpatrick confirmed​ dead. Huge loss to the service. May she rest in peace.

Parapara2017

Disgusted, horrible news. Had to read the headline two or three times when i woke up before it sank in. Hopefully the friends and families of all convolved will get some answers to what happened.

TallGlass

flazio wrote: »

Captain Dara Fitzpatrick confirmed​ dead. Huge loss to the service. May she rest in peace.

From watching her on RTÉ and the watching her interviews, she seemed and came across as extremely experienced, extremely professional and extremely passionate about her work and flying.

Safe to say such a tragic loss of experience for the guys, I still hold some hope for the 3 guys missing.

AmboMan

What a waste of life and resources for some dude with a hurty finger.

January

AmboMan wrote: »

What a waste of life and resources for some dude with a hurty finger.

'hurty finger' = the tip of his finger was cut off. He was rescued due to the risk of septicemia.

AmboMan

January wrote: »

'hurty finger' = the tip of his finger was cut off. He was rescued due to the risk of septicemia.

A minor injury that was not time critical. Sepsis can be caused be on open wound, possibly prophylactic antibiotics prescribed if warranted. Really this guy could have taken some paracetamol and/or ibuprofen and and disembarked at the nearest port.
The risk of airlifting this guy was far greater than any potential benefit.

ratracer

AmboMan wrote: »

A minor injury that was not time critical. Sepsis can be caused be on open wound, possibly prophylactic antibiotics prescribed if warranted. Really this guy could have taken some paracetamol and/or ibuprofen and and disembarked at the nearest port.
The risk of airlifting this guy was far greater than any potential benefit.

Do you have access to his actual diagnosis or just what the independent spout?
I don't think anyone in the ES would be questioning the validity of a turn out, the job is to help people out when they need it!

AmboMan

ratracer wrote: »

Do you have access to his actual diagnosis or just what the independent spout?
I don't think anyone in the ES would be questioning the validity of a turn out, the job is to help people out when they need it!

I've seen the video footage of the guy walking out of the helicopter towards the ambulance crew with a minor distal injury to one hand.
People in the Emergency Services should question and carryout a dynamic risk assessment as there is significant risk involved carrying out a rescue mission at night with minimal benefit to this patient. Even if a finger or thumb is amputated orthopaedic and plastic review to tidy up the stump is the normal course of action at the most.

ratracer

AmboMan wrote: »

I've seen the video footage of the guy walking out of the helicopter towards the ambulance crew with a minor distal injury to one hand.
People in the Emergency Services should question and carryout a dynamic risk assessment as there is significant risk involved carrying out a rescue mission at night with minimal benefit to this patient. Even if a finger or thumb is amputated orthopaedic and plastic review to tidy up the stump is the normal course of action at the most.

In my opinion, and I am not an expert in aviation, but the helicopter was flying well within its operating range, and within acceptable weather conditions for the aircraft. The crew were highly trained at what they do.
Something has gone seriously wrong with the aircraft and it's warning systems ( EPIRBS etc) that hasn't been explained yet. While every avenue of investigation of the cause of the collision needs to be exhausted, I don't believe that gutter press hacks with nothing further to write about should be stirring up something they know very little about.

January

AmboMan wrote: »

A minor injury that was not time critical. Sepsis can be caused be on open wound, possibly prophylactic antibiotics prescribed if warranted. Really this guy could have taken some paracetamol and/or ibuprofen and and disembarked at the nearest port.
The risk of airlifting this guy was far greater than any potential benefit.

The ICG made the call to go out to the ship. They wouldn't have done that if they didn't think there was a risk. I think it's a bit distasteful to question their decision at a time like this.

A full investigation is being carried out which will no doubt include the reasons for launching the medevac. This investigation will be carried out by experts and any theory posted here is nothing more than speculation.

And for those unfamiliar with injuries or medical concerns at sea look at this;

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maritime_Telemedical_Assistance_Service

AmboMan

January wrote: »

The ICG made the call to go out to the ship. They wouldn't have done that if they didn't think there was a risk. I think it's a bit distasteful to question their decision at a time like this.

I'm sorry you find my opinion distasteful but it doesn't change the fact that four CG staff are now dead because of a relatively minor injury.
People make incorrect decisions all the time and I'm sure medico in Cork and the ICG are no exception.

degsie

AmboMan wrote: »

I'm sorry you find my opinion distasteful but it doesn't change the fact that four CG staff are now dead because of a relatively minor injury.
People make incorrect decisions all the time and I'm sure medico in Cork and the ICG are no exception.

For a moment, put yourself in the place of the injured crewman. No matter what the injury was I'm sure he must feel uncomfortable that 4 people died in the efforts to help him. It was not his intention, nor that of the emergency services, that people died that day. You yourself should feel a little empathy rather than trying to spread needless tripe.

AmboMan

AmboMan wrote: »

I'm sorry you find my opinion distasteful but it doesn't change the fact that four CG staff are now dead because of a relatively minor injury.

Would you have preferred if the accident happened when a boat was sinking? Or a cardiac arrest? What about on a medical transfer to the UK? The helicopter was tasked to a job and suffered this tragic crash. The reason why it was tasked was irrelevant. Like your opinion.

AmboMan

degsie wrote: »

For a moment, put yourself in the place of the injured crewman. No matter what the injury was I'm sure he must feel uncomfortable that 4 people died in the efforts to help him. It was not his intention, nor that of the emergency services, that people died that day. You yourself should feel a little empathy rather than trying to spread needless tripe.

Fact: The injury was a minor hand injury not time critical. Empathy won't help those that were killed on a mission that was unnecessary in the first place.

uck51js9zml2yt

From my reading , there would have been a call between the captain , the rescue crew and medics . The medics would have advised the SAR of the need for a rescue.
It wasn't something the ship's crew or SAR just decided was a good idea.

Tokyo

AmboMan wrote: »

What a waste of life and resources for some dude with a hurty finger.

At best, your comments are distasteful, and do a disservice to the men and woman who gave their lives in the service of others.

Having been lucky enough to have worked alongside members of the coast guard in the past, I can assure you that they are well aware of the risks involved, be it a "hurty finger" or a sinking vessel, and do their jobs regardless. THAT'S what differentiates them from most other people, not the fact that they perished in the course of their duties.

Odelay

AmboMan wrote: »

Fact: The injury was a minor hand injury not time critical. Empathy won't help those that were killed on a mission that was unnecessary in the first place.

Jeekers, you know so much more about medical conditions and any complications than the professionals.
Have you considered offering your outstanding knowledge to the emergency services?

Steve

AmboMan wrote: »

Fact: The injury was a minor hand injury not time critical. Empathy won't help those that were killed on a mission that was unnecessary in the first place.

How long do you think before it was time critical?

flazio

I agree that the nature of the call is immaterial.
This could easily have been a training exercise (and perhaps it was being used as one if they knew full well the condition of the patient) where the circumstances would have been the exact same and sadly the exact same outcome would most likely have occurred.

scuby

journal reporting there was a miscommunication between boat and CUH, who deals with marine medical calls : http://www.thejournal.ie/coastguard-injury-miscommunication-dara-fitzpatrick-3296348-Mar2017/

AmboMan

Odelay wrote: »

Jeekers, you know so much more about medical conditions and any complications than the professionals.
Have you considered offering your outstanding knowledge to the emergency services?

I am part of the Emergency Services and use my knowledge and 20 years experience daily.

AmboMan

Steve wrote: »

How long do you think before it was time critical?

I wouldn't imagine it was time critical or had to potential to become time critical.

Steve

AmboMan wrote: »

I am part of the Emergency Services and use my knowledge and 20 years experience daily.

So, how about you answer my question then?

I can accurately estimate the vessels time to shore. How long as an ES member do you think before it would be medically critical?

Steve

AmboMan wrote: »

I wouldn't imagine it was time critical or had to potential to become time critical.

What is the allowable timescale before blood loss, shock, gangarene, septicemia or other infections become relevant and / or life threatening?

Really, I'd like to know?

I know how many hours this poor person was from hospital.

AmboMan

Steve wrote: »

What is the allowable timescale before blood loss, shock, gangarene, septicemia or other infections become relevant and / or life threatening?

Really, I'd like to know?

I know how many hours this poor person was from hospital.

IMO the amputation of a digit would not cause Hypovolemic shock (shock from blood loss) Infections such as sepsis would normally only appear 3-5 days post injury/surgery.

Steve

AmboMan wrote: »

IMO the amputation of a digit would not cause Hypovolemic shock (shock from blood loss) Infections such as sepsis would normally only appear 3-5 days post injury/surgery.

So, that said, do you think a 20 hour wait before even first aid treatment is non life threatening?

degsie

Some petty squabbling going on here. Sad really.

RIP to the crew.

...And Justice

Steve wrote: »

So, that said, do you think a 20 hour wait before even first aid treatment is non life threatening?

You only have to look at deadliest catch to see how much minor injuries can become life threatening, I know it's a tv program, but dirty trawlers, bacteria and fish blood can cause serious infections. So 20 hours could have been life and death. If the tragedy hadn't happened, this would have been another day in the life of rescue workers that nobody would've heard of.

Steve

Release from AAIU

The AAIU wishes to extend its sincere sympathies to the families and friends of the crew of R116.
The Chief Inspector of Air Accidents, Mr. Jurgen Whyte, in consultation with the appointed Investigator-in-Charge, Mr. Paul Farrell, wishes to make the following statement.
An AAIU investigation into the circumstances of the loss of R116 is underway. As with all AAIU investigations, this Investigation will be evidence based.
The Investigation has been working with the Garda Síochána, Coast Guard, Irish Air Corps, the Irish Marine Institute, and many local persons and agencies with the primary objective of locating and recovering the missing crew members.
In addition, the AAIU is anxious to recover and examine as much wreckage as possible, and in particular to recover the combined voice and flight data recorder (“black box”). The AAIU, in accordance with international convention, has an Accredited Representative from the US National Transportation Safety Board (as state of design and manufacture); that representative has advisers from the US Federal Aviation Administration and the aircraft manufacturer. The AAIU has also received assistance, support and advice from the UK Air Accidents Investigation Branch two of whose inspectors attended Blacksod.
A significant amount of wreckage has been recovered from the sea and this has been logged and will be brought to the AAIU wreckage facility in Gormanston, Co Meath, for detailed examination.
Furthermore, the AAIU has visited Black Rock Light House, on the approaches to Blacksod bay, which is close to the last recorded position of the helicopter. Some helicopter wreckage has been recovered from the general area of Black Rock Light House. This wreckage is primarily from the tail area of the helicopter. At this early stage in the investigation it is not possible to be definitive about the exact nature of damage to the recovered wreckage or indeed the circumstances of the accident. However, there appears to be marks on some of the recovered wreckage which are consistent with the tail of the aircraft contacting rocky surfaces on the Western end of Blackrock. The Investigation has not yet definitively identified the initial point of impact.
Equipment aboard surface search vessels has detected a signal which is believed to be from the underwater locator beacon attached to the aircraft’s “Black Box”. This signal points toward an area which will be the focus of further, multi-agency investigation activities at the earliest opportunity, subject to weather.

AmboMan

Steve wrote: »

So, that said, do you think a 20 hour wait before even first aid treatment is non life threatening?

I don't understand your question but an amputation of a digit is not a life threatening emergency. 20hrs, 20mins or 2 days would have little bearing on the outcome for the patient.

AmboMan

I'm going to stop posting in the thread as my opinion that two aircraft plus ambulance and other ground resources were not necessary for an amputation of a digit are obviously upsetting to some people.

Steve

AmboMan wrote: »

I'm going to stop posting in the thread as my opinion that two aircraft plus ambulance and other ground resources were not necessary for an amputation of a digit are obviously upsetting to some people.

I wish you well in your medical career.

The fact that Coast Guard crew died in the course of this are upsetting a lot of people. No disrespect intended.

kirving

AmboMan wrote: »

I'm sorry you find my opinion distasteful but it doesn't change the fact that four CG staff are now dead because of a relatively minor injury.
People make incorrect decisions all the time and I'm sure medico in Cork and the ICG are no exception.

You're missing the basics of Cause and Effect here. The helicopter did not crash "because" it was tasked for what turned out to be minor injury in the grand scale of things, and adding the word "fact" doesn't make it any more true.

Despite the injury being less serious than first reported, that still doesn't mean that it an incorrect decision as you say. By their very nature, Training exercises can and will carry relatively more risk than what was thought to be a routine mission last Tuesday morning. Similarly, they Coast Guard cannot operate for life or death only cases, since this isn't a line that can be easily drawn.

Something clearly went catastrophically wrong, but that is entirely separate to the patient's injuries.

Going Forward

Kevin Irving wrote: »

You're missing the basics of Cause and Effect here. The helicopter did not crash "because" it was tasked for what turned out to be minor injury in the grand scale of things, and adding the word "fact" doesn't make it any more true.

Despite the injury being less serious than first reported, that still doesn't mean that it an incorrect decision as you say. By their very nature, Training exercises can and will carry relatively more risk than what was thought to be a routine mission last Tuesday morning. Similarly, they Coast Guard cannot operate for life or death only cases, since this isn't a line that can be easily drawn.

Something clearly went catastrophically wrong, but that is entirely separate to the patient's injuries.

There is always a risk of something going catastrophically wrong.

You speak about a line being drawn as to what should be responded to and what shouldn't.

What is that line?

What is the protocol?

Does someone make contact, report an incident and automatically receive 2 helicopters to assist?

There is talk (the Journal/Irish Independent, how accurate I don't know) of possible misunderstandings between boat and shore, whether a hand had been initially amputated, and talk of callers sometimes possibly not having the best command of English speaking to call takers not having the best command of English, and of course, the incident had been reduced to a cut thumb.

If this is the case, does it matter? Surely it does.

My initial thoughts on hearing there had been an accident was that I had hoped they were not responding to some time wasting hill walker who should know better out on their own in fog, something that rescue teams seem to coming across more and more often.

Why this all matters is because if you're not drawing solid lines and protocol between what's going to receive full scale assistance and what's not, we might as well just have a push button system to request help and expect it to appear at all times.

Is that sustainable, and worth the risks?

Turner

Thread closed pending review, based on the amount of reported posts.


There is already a full discussion on this topic over in the aviation forum, see here http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057717298

With an extra mod drafted in just to keep an eye on it.

I think its best if the discussion continues in the aviation forum, as there are already 74 pages of good (and some not so good) posts.

Please see the mod instruction in post 1 before replying/posting.

Turner.

Thread now closed in the ES forums.