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Fine Gael closing down Rural Ireland??

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    #92
    Balf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 667 ✭✭✭Balf


    Widdershins wrote: »
    It's not rural people thinking we're different or something.
    I'm afraid it is. There is a strong tendancy in much rural advocacy to unrealistic demands, backed by fanciful arguments.

    Like your contention that rural Ireland is full of elderly people who still cycle everywhere. That would have been true in living memory. But, over the last couple of decades, rural folk (who aren't reciting advocacy mantras) are far more likely to observe that they can't cycle no more as the explosion in both one-off housing and car ownership means they just don't feel safe sharing the road with increased, speedy, traffic.

    Put another way, I'll see your corny anecdote and raise you with actual contemporary experience.


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    #93
    Widdershins
    Registered Users Posts: 10,633 ✭✭✭✭Widdershins


    Balf wrote: »
    I'm afraid it is. There is a strong tendancy in much rural advocacy to unrealistic demands, backed by fanciful arguments.

    Like your contention that rural Ireland is full of elderly people who still cycle everywhere. That would have been true in living memory. But, over the last couple of decades, rural folk (who aren't reciting advocacy mantras) are far more likely to observe that they can't cycle no more as the explosion in both one-off housing and car ownership means they just don't feel safe sharing the road with increased, speedy, traffic.

    Put another way, I'll see your corny anecdote and raise you with actual contemporary experience.

    It's you who has a fanciful way of reading and interpreting other peoples words, I think. Those who can't drive or get a lift either walk or cycle and there's plenty of walkers on the roads here every day, especially mums with pushchairs, not looking worried about the explosion in traffic. I never said the country's ''full of'' cyclists, elderly or otherwise.

    Why you think your contemporary experience is more valid than mine is a mystery.


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    #94
    end of the road
    Registered Users Posts: 28,984 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    Balf wrote: »
    I'm afraid it is. There is a strong tendancy in much rural advocacy to unrealistic demands, backed by fanciful arguments.

    Like your contention that rural Ireland is full of elderly people who still cycle everywhere. That would have been true in living memory. But, over the last couple of decades, rural folk (who aren't reciting advocacy mantras) are far more likely to observe that they can't cycle no more as the explosion in both one-off housing and car ownership means they just don't feel safe sharing the road with increased, speedy, traffic.

    Put another way, I'll see your corny anecdote and raise you with actual contemporary experience.

    i'm afraid it isn't. There is only a very small tendantsy in much rural advocacy to unrealistic demands, backed by fanciful arguments.
    just like there is only a very small tendantsy in much urban advocacy to unrealistic demands, playing the victim, backed by fanciful arguments.

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



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    #95
    Balf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 667 ✭✭✭Balf


    Widdershins wrote: »
    Why you think your contemporary experience is more valid than mine is a mystery.
    Oh, I don't. I simply don't believe you are sharing your actual experience, for reasons that are self-evident.

    No mystery at all.


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    #96
    Widdershins
    Registered Users Posts: 10,633 ✭✭✭✭Widdershins


    Balf wrote: »
    Oh, I don't. I simply don't believe you are sharing your actual experience, for reasons that are self-evident.

    No mystery at all.

    What are my actual experiences then? That the locals who don't drive don't manage somehow and accept the tradeoff of convenience for the environment that makes them happy? Hmm yes I can see why that's so far fetched, no wonder you have difficulty believing it. :rolleyes:

    I find your line of questioning and suspicion extremely peculiar and badminded. I merely said I think the local village PO's would be sorely missed by some people and pointed out that there's going to be a lot more driving, parking and time spent on using a PO further away, depending on which ones are closed down.


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    #97
    Del2005
    Registered Users Posts: 18,872 ✭✭✭✭Del2005


    Widdershins wrote: »
    Not if there are basic services in nearest village. Many of them walk or cycle that far. It was a way of life for the older people.

    It can be difficult but there are basic local minibus services in some remote areas, once a week or something. People manage because they're not suited to town/city living and they accept the tradeoff.

    If they can get a mini bus to the nearest village then they can get a minibus to the nearest town. If the local village hasn't the services for them it's not urban peoples fault, it's other rural dwellers who drive past the local village to the nearest town.

    When I was young in the early 90s my mothers local village had 3 shops, a chemist, a post office, 2 pubs and a church. It was always fairly busy. I drove through it late last year at 6pm on a Friday and there was no cars parked, no people to be seen and there's only 1 pub, which opens at 8pm, and the church left. A shop has reopened since. I've ridden through rural France and Switzerland and after 10-20 minutes of ridding through unspoiled countryside you'd arrive at a little village with shops, cafes, kids playing on the street. Were my father is from there's 2 kids of ~13 and ~8 who have to be driven anywhere to play with their friends, not that there's many kids their age around.
    Widdershins wrote: »
    Actually I partly agree. Too many one off houses and my issue is more about them spoiling big chunks of countryside, as well as arable land. I would like to see our agricultural potential being reached. I believe we could be a sort of green gem in organic farming. But that's a different thread. And most of my neighbours here are farming families.

    1 family needs to live on the farm, the remaining families can live in villages.
    Widdershins wrote: »
    Nor did I complain about the,m, just prefer if farming families could stay in their area and make a go of their farms rather than people building mansions on the land.

    The local village is their area and from my experience of rural East Mayo it's the locals building the mansions as no foreigner wants to live there. Every farmer you meet says that they are struggling, and if it wasn't for subsidies they definitely would, so how can multiple families make a go of a farm?


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    #98
    end of the road
    Registered Users Posts: 28,984 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    Del2005 wrote: »
    If they can get a mini bus to the nearest village then they can get a minibus to the nearest town.

    wrong. they can only get it to the town if it goes to the town. which many of them don't go to the town, but the nearest village.
    Del2005 wrote: »
    1 family needs to live on the farm, the remaining families can live in villages.

    they can live where they like. they will get their services as per entitlements and obligations as they pay tax.
    Del2005 wrote: »
    The local village is their area and from my experience of rural East Mayo it's the locals building the mansions as no foreigner wants to live there. Every farmer you meet says that they are struggling, and if it wasn't for subsidies they definitely would, so how can multiple families make a go of a farm?

    they all chip in . more working hands = quicker work and more work done.

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



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    #99
    PeadarCo
    Registered Users Posts: 1,915 ✭✭✭PeadarCo


    Del2005 wrote:
    The local village is their area and from my experience of rural East Mayo it's the locals building the mansions as no foreigner wants to live there. Every farmer you meet says that they are struggling, and if it wasn't for subsidies they definitely would, so how can multiple families make a go of a farm?

    They won't be able to make a go. The number of people farming has been declining for decades and will continue to decline due to technology changes and pressure on farmers profit margins. The whole post office issue is a side show. What people are really complaining about is the continual decline if rural Ireland. That's been driven by the change in the jobs people do. Most jobs are located in towns and cities. People move to where their are jobs. Its something you see in nearly every country in the world.

    Leaving a few post offices open won't have any effect on the health of rural Ireland. Its a system of the decline not the cause.


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    #100
    murphaph
    Registered Users Posts: 19,018 ✭✭✭✭murphaph


    Widdershins wrote: »
    That's hilarious. But whatever! I don't know where to even start with that. Maybe visit Clare and Limerick someday.
    That's the comment that keeps on giving. Clarecastle is ''not strictly Ennis''.

    I don't mean to be rude petal, your little map is lovely. When you let me know which villages/towns will have their PO closed I'll let you know which areas will be affected and how far away of a drive from a town with a PO they are.
    The post of someone who has had his argument thoroughly discredited. You don't​ like the map (thanks Victor) because it cuts through 10 layers of bull**** like a hot knife through butter.

    I'd say that literally not one person living on the mainland is over 60 mins drive to a post office. I'd say the percentage over 30 mins drive is still low single digits!


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    #101
    murphaph
    Registered Users Posts: 19,018 ✭✭✭✭murphaph


    end of the road wrote: »
    i'm afraid it isn't. There is only a very small tendantsy in much rural advocacy to unrealistic demands, backed by fanciful arguments.
    just like there is only a very small tendantsy in much urban advocacy to unrealistic demands, playing the victim, backed by fanciful arguments.
    Could you please try to put actual points forward, rather than respond to posts by just saying "no you're wrong, it's the opposite of that". You do it all the time, not just in this thread. Please try to substantiate your posts with some sort of argument.


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    #102
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    end of the road wrote: »
    wrong. they can only get it to the town if it goes to the town. which many of them don't go to the town, but the nearest village.

    Wrong. They can get a minibus/taxi from their door to the nearest town twice a week. They have enough time to do all their business or even get their hair done, go to doctor, etc.


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    #103
    LeinsterDub
    Registered Users Posts: 8,229 ✭✭✭LeinsterDub


    end of the road wrote: »
    they can live where they like. they will get their services as per entitlements and obligations as they pay tax.

    Of course they can live where they like and of course they'll get the services they are entitled to and of course those services will be dictated by both a PSO factor and what makes economic sense.


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    #104
    Widdershins
    Registered Users Posts: 10,633 ✭✭✭✭Widdershins


    Del2005 wrote: »
    If they can get a mini bus to the nearest village then they can get a minibus to the nearest town. If the local village hasn't the services for them it's not urban peoples fault, it's other rural dwellers who drive past the local village to the nearest town.


    I didn't say it was urban dweller's fault. Do you have some sort of complex?

    Those minibuses tend to run once a week, and they pick passengers up a few hours after dropping them off. Do you expect people to take the day off/out to get a post office run done? They are also very small buses, not meant for people who only need to do a simple job they could normally get done locally. How many more buses would need to be put on for them? That's just daft

    I did say it could be something to do with *some* rural people bypassing local services, probably not thinking it's going to cause their demise. Again that doesn't mean those who need and use the service don't exist.


    [/QUOTE]from my experience of rural East Mayo it's the locals building the mansions as no foreigner wants to live there. Every farmer you meet says that they are struggling, and if it wasn't for subsidies they definitely would, so how can multiple families make a go of a farm?[/QUOTE]

    What foreigners? Is that a euphemism for people who didn't originally come from that exact area, or something? Because I never mentioned foreigners...
    murphaph wrote: »
    The post of someone who has had his argument thoroughly discredited. You don't​ like the map (thanks Victor) because it cuts through 10 layers of bull**** like a hot knife through butter.

    I'd say that literally not one person living on the mainland is over 60 mins drive to a post office. I'd say the percentage over 30 mins drive is still low single digits!

    Lovely. Normally I don't reply to posts like yours.

    Without knowing which post offices WILL be open you can't say where they'll be driving/trying to get to. And currently most of the outlying townlands that come to mind for me would be half an hour or so from a place with a PO. Those places seem likely candidates for closing down. Feakle hinterland people might go to Scariff. Would Scariff be closed, though? People in North Clare might already go to Ballyvaughan which is easily a half hour from some of the more remote places. Will Ballyvaughan be left open? If those in planning take your kind of view, I doubt it.

    I am not that remote, and I'd be driving to one on Victor's list of suggestions, half an hour away on a good day. It's none of your business where that is. And that's half an hour to reach the outskirts of the town, not including getting through traffic, finding somewhere to park (it's notoriously lacking in parking) and all the rest.

    When I can currently use the PO in the village, that's going to make a big difference.

    I think 30 minutes seems about the average drive. You can do no more than guess when you say ''I'd say the percentage over 30 mins drive is still low single digits!'' and I'm not sure why you think those people are irrelevant.


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    #105
    Widdershins
    Registered Users Posts: 10,633 ✭✭✭✭Widdershins


    PeadarCo wrote: »
    They won't be able to make a go. The number of people farming has been declining for decades and will continue to decline due to technology changes and pressure on farmers profit margins. The whole post office issue is a side show. What people are really complaining about is the continual decline if rural Ireland. That's been driven by the change in the jobs people do. Most jobs are located in towns and cities. People move to where their are jobs. Its something you see in nearly every country in the world.

    Leaving a few post offices open won't have any effect on the health of rural Ireland. Its a system of the decline not the cause.

    If there's no post office in villages you'll see a decline alright.

    Which would warm the cockles of the hearts of a few people on this thread.


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    #106
    LeinsterDub
    Registered Users Posts: 8,229 ✭✭✭LeinsterDub


    Widdershins wrote: »
    If there's no post office in villages you'll see a decline alright.

    Which would warm the cockles of the hearts of a few people on this thread.

    Quite the opposite in fact. What would warm the cockles is sensible planning which supports local villages and towns, lower the infrastructure costs, improves health care provision etc.

    It's a sad state of affairs when towns the size of Enniscorthy are struggling. I'm not sure how you expect tiny villages to survive. To use a farming expression you reap what you sow


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    #107
    Widdershins
    Registered Users Posts: 10,633 ✭✭✭✭Widdershins


    LeinsterDub wrote: »
    Quite the opposite in fact. What would warm the cockles is sensible planning which support local villages and towns, lower the infrastructure costs, improve health care provision etc.

    It's a sad state of affairs when towns the size of Enniscorthy are struggling. I'm not sure how you expect tiny villages to survive. To use a farming expression you reap what you sow

    Well that sounded reasonable enough until the last sentence.


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    #108
    LeinsterDub
    Registered Users Posts: 8,229 ✭✭✭LeinsterDub


    Widdershins wrote: »
    Well that sounded reasonable enough until the last sentence.

    It wasn't urban Dublin that encouraged one off housing for miles on end. The road from Galway city to the port to Inis Mór is one of the worst examples. House after house miles from the nearest village. In fact efforts from central government to discourage this sort of thing have been vigorously fought by rural Ireland


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    #109
    Widdershins
    Registered Users Posts: 10,633 ✭✭✭✭Widdershins


    LeinsterDub wrote: »
    It wasn't urban Dublin that encouraged one off housing for miles on end. The road from Galway city to the port to Inis Mór is one of the worst examples. House after house miles from the nearest village. In fact efforts from central government to discourage this sort of thing have been vigorously fought by rural Ireland

    I'm in rural Ireland and I was and am opposed to it so I wasn't disagreeing about that. Not helpful to be spiteful or hostile to people now though.


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    #110
    Elemonator
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,271 ✭✭✭Elemonator


    Can't allow a few farmers in the middle of Ballydenowhere to suck money out of an already ailing An Post.

    Or we could just increase our taxes?


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    #111
    LeinsterDub
    Registered Users Posts: 8,229 ✭✭✭LeinsterDub


    Widdershins wrote: »
    I'm in rural Ireland and I was and am opposed to it so I wasn't disagreeing about that. Not helpful to be spiteful or hostile to people now though.

    No one is being spiteful or hostile


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    #112
    Widdershins
    Registered Users Posts: 10,633 ✭✭✭✭Widdershins


    Elemonator wrote: »
    Can't allow a few farmers in the middle of Ballydenowhere to suck money out of an already ailing An Post.

    Or we could just increase our taxes?

    Excuse the ignorance but is there a way of finding out a breakdown of taxes are spent on? If they are already being spent wisely then I'd accept an increase to support my own area's survival but as has been said, An Post could maximise profits in some ways.


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    #113
    LeinsterDub
    Registered Users Posts: 8,229 ✭✭✭LeinsterDub


    Elemonator wrote: »
    Can't allow a few farmers in the middle of Ballydenowhere to suck money out of an already ailing An Post.

    Or we could just increase our taxes?
    I assume our means the taxes of the people in rural Ireland as urban areas already pay enough for rural subvention


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    #114
    Elemonator
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,271 ✭✭✭Elemonator


    Widdershins wrote: »
    Excuse the ignorance but is there a way of finding out a breakdown of taxes are spent on? If they are already being spent wisely then I'd accept an increase to support my own area's survival but as has been said, An Post could maximise profits in some ways.

    There is, I'll have to look. I think the Department of Finance or the Central Statistics Office have a pit chart and technical breakdown online. To be honest though, I don't think its a lack of funding, but rather stupid spending. They are talking about closing a few rural offices when their CEO gets 500,000 euros a year.


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    #115
    Balf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 667 ✭✭✭Balf


    PeadarCo wrote: »
    Most jobs are located in towns and cities. People move to where their are jobs. Its something you see in nearly every country in the world.

    Leaving a few post offices open won't have any effect on the health of rural Ireland. Its a system of the decline not the cause.
    I think you've summarised the issue very clearly.

    I think we could add that the rural agenda has always been a political priority. It's even stitched into the Constitution. It just isn't a realistic vision.

    If rural areas possessed the human and material resources to construct a sustainable life for a greatly expanded population, we wouldn't be having this discussion. Experience suggests that despite every support - going right back to rural electrification - the rural economy simply underperforms and fails to deliver the hoped for outcome.

    Really, nothing to see here and nothing to be done.


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    #116
    Widdershins
    Registered Users Posts: 10,633 ✭✭✭✭Widdershins


    Balf wrote: »
    I think you've summarised the issue very clearly.

    I think we could add that the rural agenda has always been a political priority. It's even stitched into the Constitution. It just isn't a realistic vision.

    If rural areas possessed the human and material resources to construct a sustainable life for a greatly expanded population, we wouldn't be having this discussion. Experience suggests that despite every support - going right back to rural electrification - the rural economy simply underperforms and fails to deliver the hoped for outcome.

    Really, nothing to see here and nothing to be done.

    Dublin can manage without the water pipeline from rural Ireland, then, can it? Maybe we could save some money there instead.

    Because it's not just rural areas that should ''possess the human and material resources to construct a sustainable life for a greatly expanded population''

    http://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/irish-water-publishes-route-of-shannon-to-dublin-pipeline-1.2858475


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    #117
    Widdershins
    Registered Users Posts: 10,633 ✭✭✭✭Widdershins


    Elemonator wrote: »
    There is, I'll have to look. I think the Department of Finance or the Central Statistics Office have a pit chart and technical breakdown online. To be honest though, I don't think its a lack of funding, but rather stupid spending. They are talking about closing a few rural offices when their CEO gets 500,000 euros a year.

    I think that's the problem in most of these cases.


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    #118
    end of the road
    Registered Users Posts: 28,984 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    murphaph wrote: »
    The post of someone who has had his argument thoroughly discredited. You don't​ like the map (thanks Victor) because it cuts through 10 layers of bull**** like a hot knife through butter.

    her argument wasn't discredited and the map doesn't cut through any layers of anything like anything. her arguments are valid and as she knows the area, what she says goes.
    murphaph wrote: »
    I'd say that literally not one person living on the mainland is over 60 mins drive to a post office. I'd say the percentage over 30 mins drive is still low single digits!

    people have better things to do then driving an hour to a post office when one exists in their area currently.
    Deleted User wrote: »
    Wrong. They can get a minibus/taxi from their door to the nearest town twice a week. They have enough time to do all their business or even get their hair done, go to doctor, etc.

    wrong, they can't get one to the nearest town if one doesn't go to the nearest town. if one goes to the nearest town they are all ready traveling to the nearest town anyway so they wouldn't be having any issue. but as many areas don't have services to the nearest town but the nearest village only, then they shall be fighting to retain their services.
    LeinsterDub wrote: »
    No one is being spiteful or hostile

    they are i'm afraid.
    LeinsterDub wrote: »
    I assume our means the taxes of the people in rural Ireland as urban areas already pay enough for rural subvention

    no it would have to be a general tax increase to avoid discrimination. urban areas actually don't pay enough tax to support themselves. everyone in ireland is being subsidized in one form or another, it's just some like to deny it.

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



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    #119
    LeinsterDub
    Registered Users Posts: 8,229 ✭✭✭LeinsterDub


    end of the road wrote: »
    no it would have to be a general tax increase to avoid discrimination. urban areas actually don't pay enough tax to support themselves. everyone in ireland is being subsidized in one form or another, it's just some like to deny it.

    Actually Dublin is very much subsiding the rest of the country.


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    #120
    Balf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 667 ✭✭✭Balf


    Widdershins wrote: »
    Dublin can manage without the water pipeline from rural Ireland, then, can it?]
    The point, which I suspect you appreciate, is that tax revenue raised in Dublin can fund the construction of a pipeline. And the river is just a nation resource - it doesn't exist because of any effort by rural Ireland.

    By contrast, rural Ireland can't fund the post office network. Neither does possession of the network prevent rural decline, even for a second.

    Rural folk like yourself just need to frame realistic expectations, and bring that to the table.


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    #121
    Balf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 667 ✭✭✭Balf


    LeinsterDub wrote: »
    Actually Dublin is very much subsiding the rest of the country.
    This has been demonstrated many times. For example


    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=89559868&postcount=23


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