Metro/Tram Service in Cork City

DylanGLC

Decided to make a new thread since the previous one is 11 years old and hasn't been posted in in a long time.

The Green Party again are pushing for the introduction of a tram service/Luas in Cork City, according to 96FM. The proposed tram would run from Mahon and Blackrock to the city centre, and then to Ballincollig and Bishopstown. They say over 400,000 people live in the Cork metropolitan area and that the city must act like "a large city and plan accordingly". Also according to 96FM, this new push is being back by IDA Ireland, who believe that it could help with attracting investment into the city.

Here is an article from the journal.ie that was written on the subject during the week: http://www.thejournal.ie/luas-cork-city-2-3265254-Mar2017/

What do people here think of it? Is it a good idea, will the service actually be used? Is it possible or right now does it just seem like wishful thinking?

LeinsterDub

More chance of the Dart to dingle

namloc1980

Is it a good idea? Yes. Will it happen? Not before 2050 at least.

Mutant z

Completely unnecessarily for Cork city.

LeinsterDub

Mutant z wrote: »

Completely unnecessarily for Cork city.

Why do you think so?

Mutant z

LeinsterDub wrote: »

Why do you think so?

Would it have sufficent passenger numbers they already have a bus service, and they might have trouble managing the steep hills.

TheChizler

They managed the hills back in 1898...

Stephen15

Mutant z wrote: »

Would it have sufficent passenger numbers they already have a bus service, and they might have trouble managing the steep hills.

What about a rubber tyred tramway. Works well uphill

marno21

Couple of points.

1. This would be built for future population projections. Have to keep that in mind. Remember there was plans to make the Jack Lynch Tunnel one lane in either direction. See how short sighted that would've been.

2. Yeah we do have a bus service. But it's ****e.

3. Have a look at Montpellier's tram system. It's a city with a population of 270k and its tram service is packed to bursting. It's a great asset to the city and does a fine job for the city centre.

AugustusMinimus

Mutant z wrote: »

Would it have sufficent passenger numbers they already have a bus service, and they might have trouble managing the steep hills.

What steep hill would be on the quoted route? Any team will likely go through a redeveloped dock lands which will have high density accommodation. The given route will also hit major employment centres and key points such as 2 Universities, the largest hospital in Ireland and God willing, the Event Centre.

Why must anything for Cork be shot down so fast while the opposite happens when something is proposed for elsewhere in Ireland?

mik_da_man

I think it's a great idea, should have been done years ago.
It would be a great asset to the city and would work much better than the bus service which currently is badly effected by traffic.

namloc1980

There is a massive lack of imagination and forward thinking at the political level in Ireland. An East West tram like in Cork would hit all the right points that other cities would be envious of: residential, employment and entertainment hub in Mahon, residential area in Blackrock, Pairc Ui Chaoimh, docklands, transport hub @ Kent, city centre, UCC, CUH, CIT, and then Bishopstown/Ballincollig. All the boxes ticked. But apart from the Green's none of the major parties are in favour of it. Serious lack of imagination. Even a BRT at an absolute minimum should be built and future proofed for upgrade like the Mettis system in Metz, France.



Of course NIMBY objections would be a problem even if it somehow got the go ahead. Any system would need to use the old Passage Blackrock line to make it viable. When the idea was previously floated people in Blackrock were massively against the idea.

namloc1980

Mutant z wrote: »

Would it have sufficent passenger numbers they already have a bus service, and they might have trouble managing the steep hills.

Saying a city shouldn't get a metro because it already has a bus service is a ridiculous argument.

rebs23

Ballincollig through to the city passing CIT, UCC, CUH then to City Centre out the Docklands and onto Blackrock, Mahon Point, Rochestown and onto Passage West would definitely be viable. With the Docklands beginning to move into a development phase over the next 20 years, we need to plan for it now.

Pablo Escobar

LeinsterDub wrote: »

More chance of the Dart to dingle

On what basis?

Anyway, when they did the research for this back in 2010, they found that the proposed route (Ballincollig-Mahon) didn't have the critical mass, but it would support BRT. That was at the height of the depression and things have drastically changed. We've had 2 census since then with major increases in population. The docklands development will be pushed on by something like this. It's at least worth another look.

The opinions of Dubs like above, who barely venture outside the M50 are hardly credible. I spend more time in Dublin than Cork these days, but I spend more time in jams in Cork when I'm there. It's absolutely ridiculous and we need to be a little bit less backward in our approach to transport links. Particularly the 'how can it work if it's not Dublin' attitude. The success of developments projects such as the Docklands in Cork will depend on advancements such as this.

Getting from Ballincollig to the City centre using either car or bus at peak times is a nightmare and its a nightmare every single day. A tramway would be a huge benefit to the surrounding areas. Would people use it? What? A fast reliable way to get around the city? Of course not, why would they.

I really love when people cast aspersions on an idea for technical reasons. It shows they have no idea what they are talking about. The biggest excuse used for a long time for no underground in Dublin was because the water table was too high and the technology didnt exist to tunnel through it. Forgetting completely that some parts of the Bart are completely underwater. Then the Port Tunnel got built and the excuse was forgotten about.

Unless Apple build it themselves, I can't see it happening anytime soon. It would need sign off from Dublin and it would never get enough votes. The Healy Raes might support it, because if Cork got one it increases the chances of Listowel getting one. Or they might take the view that after building one in Cork there'd be no money for one in Listowel so they vote against it.

Its a great idea, but until we get a minister for Transport who takes pride in good public transport, we will be stuck with half-arsed solutions built 40 years too late.

Mutant z

namloc1980 wrote: »

Saying a city shouldn't get a metro because it already has a bus service is a ridiculous argument.

Why not cork isnt a major city by any means, and its taken a huge risk, its a lot of money to squander, i think having the Metro for Dublin would be a better idea.

namloc1980

Mutant z wrote: »

Why not cork isnt a major city by any means, and its taken a huge risk, its a lot of money to squander, i think having the Metro for Dublin would be a better idea.

Have you ever been to Europe? Tram systems are the norm in cities bigger and smaller than Cork across Europe where authorities understand the long term benefits that proper planning and public transport can bring to an urban environment no matter it's size. It's just a severe lack of imagination, planning and foresight in Ireland that means people automatically shoot down suggestions like this with no reasoning other than the usual "but it's too small" and "shur cars and buses are grand".

Sephiroth_dude

Mutant z wrote: »

Would it have sufficent passenger numbers they already have a bus service, and they might have trouble managing the steep hills.

We may not have a bus service anymore if they don't cop themselves on in bus eireann.

blindsider

Of course we need a tram/light rail system. We need to be planning it now so that it might be in service in 20 yrs time.

Steep hills? Try Lisbon. Cork's too small? Pick a medium-sized French city and 'voilá'! Regardez la tram!

Unfortunately, if and when we get the M20, our pols will shut investment in the SW for 50 yrs!

marno21

blindsider wrote: »

Of course we need a tram/light rail system. We need to be planning it now so that it might be in service in 20 yrs time.

Steep hills? Try Lisbon. Cork's too small? Pick a medium-sized French city and 'voilá'! Regardez la tram!

Unfortunately, if and when we get the M20, our pols will shut investment in the SW for 50 yrs!

After the M20, sections of M22, M25, M28, M71 and M40 needed. (Possibly dual carraigeway without M restrictions).

Light rail as well

We have to modernise or wither.

j8wk2feszrnpao

Personally I don't think it's needed, but may be nice to have.
I'd need to see the layout of the lines, the cost of the project (the build and the running prices) and the benefits (not necessarily concrete, but at least something to show it would be worthwhile). Couldn't say the expenditure would be justified before a full report was generated.

AugustusMinimus

I think I've posted this elsewhere. One line is definitely feasible.

Ballincollig - Dog Track / Science Park - CIT - CUH / Wilton Shopping Centre - Bons Hodpital - UCC - Event Centre - City Centre - Train Station - Docklands - Pairc Ui Chaoimh - Mahon Point.

Keep development on this line and it will be feasible.

A second line would deal with Douglas and possibly the Airport.

Outside of Blackpool, the North side maybe too hilly. In addition, the Northside may not have the needed population.

marno21

AugustusMinimus wrote: »

I think I've posted this elsewhere. One line is definitely feasible.

Ballincollig - Dog Track / Science Park - CIT - CUH / Wilton Shopping Centre - Bons Hodpital - UCC - Event Centre - City Centre - Train Station - Docklands - Pairc Ui Chaoimh - Mahon Point.

Keep development on this line and it will be feasible.

A second line would deal with Douglas and possibly the Airport.

Outside of Blackpool, the North side maybe too hilly. In addition, the Northside may not have the needed population.

I would say the western end of this could spur into two lines, one to Ballincollig and one to Curraheen via the hospital.

blindsider

marno21 wrote: »

After the M20, sections of M22, M25, M28, M71 and M40 needed. (Possibly dual carraigeway without M restrictions).

Light rail as well

We have to modernise or wither.

You're preaching to the converted here!

It's the bloody pols who only care about keeping their snout in the trough for 4 more yrs who are the problem.

I've no idea how much a light rail system from Ballincollig to Mahon Point or even Little Island might cost, but I can hear the Dublin meeja and pols loading the artillery already!

marno21

blindsider wrote: »

You're preaching to the converted here!

It's the bloody pols who only care about keeping their snout in the trough for 4 more yrs who are the problem.

I've no idea how much a light rail system from Ballincollig to Mahon Point or even Little Island might cost, but I can hear the Dublin meeja and pols loading the artillery already!

As there's already a railway track from Little Island to Kent. An electrified high frequency service possibly with some sort of connecting light rail through Little Island would be beneficial going forward. Such a service could also serve the industrial areas west of Carrigtwohill. Especially considering the traffic in Little Island which is nuts.

AugustusMinimus

marno21 wrote: »

blindsider wrote: »

You're preaching to the converted here!

It's the bloody pols who only care about keeping their snout in the trough for 4 more yrs who are the problem.

I've no idea how much a light rail system from Ballincollig to Mahon Point or even Little Island might cost, but I can hear the Dublin meeja and pols loading the artillery already!

As there's already a railway track from Little Island to Kent. An electrified high frequency service possibly with some sort of connecting light rail through Little Island would be beneficial going forward. Such a service could also serve the industrial areas west of Carrigtwohill. Especially considering the traffic in Little Island which is nuts.

The Tivoli Docks are also to be redeveloped. Perfect for high density development with the addition of a new train station for commuter usage.

DylanGLC

AugustusMinimus wrote: »

I think I've posted this elsewhere. One line is definitely feasible.

Ballincollig - Dog Track / Science Park - CIT - CUH / Wilton Shopping Centre - Bons Hodpital - UCC - Event Centre - City Centre - Train Station - Docklands - Pairc Ui Chaoimh - Mahon Point.

Keep development on this line and it will be feasible.

A second line would deal with Douglas and possibly the Airport.

Outside of Blackpool, the North side maybe too hilly. In addition, the Northside may not have the needed population.

I think that route is good. It's kinda sad (and very annoying) how much potential there is in the city and how little the government seem to care about that (or at least how slow they are to do anything). If Navigation Square gets approval next month, that's 3,000 more people in the city on a weekly basis.* A lot of those people will have cars so traffic is only going to increase even more than it already is. They should be focusing on a Cork Metro over the Dublin Underground or whatever it is being called.

*I'm not complaining about Navigation Square in case anyone thinks that I am, I really hope it gets permission and construction starts this year so it can be as successful as One Albert Quay

whisky_galore

This idea has been kicked around for as long as I can remember.

I don't see where the money for set-up is going to come from.

Pitcairn

The cork Area Transit study looked a Luas for Cork but the cost:benefit analysis said a Rapid Bus service was better.

http://www.corkcity.ie/services/roadstransportation/transportationdivision/corkareatransitsystemstudy/CATS%20Study%20Final%20Report%20Feb%202010_opt1.pdf


What's most frustrating is when the Government decided to roll out the first Rapid Bus system it was in Dublin. Of course that has never come to fruition.

whisky_galore

whisky_galore wrote: »

This idea has been kicked around for as long as I can remember.

I don't see where the money for set-up is going to come from.

Europe. Interest rates are so low its practically free cash. Plus they are all for loaning to spend on infrastructure.

whisky_galore

Deleted User wrote: »

Europe. Interest rates are so low its practically free cash. Plus they are all for loaning to spend on infrastructure.

Fair enough, no great will to do it by the snouts-in-the-trough brigade.

What's wrong with this country is the level of self-interest and nest-feathering.

whisky_galore

whisky_galore wrote: »

Fair enough, no great will to do it by the snouts-in-the-trough brigade.

What's wrong with this country is the level of self-interest and nest-feathering.

I'd actually argue the problem is the lack of nest-feathering. As they say a committee is a group of people who individually can do nothing but collectively can agree nothing can be done. Thats what we have. Indifference as to the problems and inability to deliver.

two wheels good

I knew about about the old Douglas tram. Well-known photo
But I wasn't aware the tram network was so extensive - Blackpool, Blackrock, Sunday's Well, Tivoli ... map here

"The tramway generating station at Albert Road now houses the National Sculpture Factory and the adjacent tram shed - complete with inspection and service pits (with tram rails still in place) - is also still intact and in use as a commercial premises."

freshpopcorn

I had a dream before that the Luas came to Cork and I got a permanent job of sitting down and calling out what stop was next.

KCAccidental

There are provisions made in the development plan for South Ballincollig for a transport corridor towards Curraheen science park and CIT. This should be extended eastwards as a planned separated BRT line to the City Centre

Mumha

Monorail, it's the way of the future.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZDOI0cq6GZM

LeinsterDub

Pablo Escobar wrote: »

On what basis?

Anyway, when they did the research for this back in 2010, they found that the proposed route (Ballincollig-Mahon) didn't have the critical mass, but it would support BRT. That was at the height of the depression and things have drastically changed. We've had 2 census since then with major increases in population. The docklands development will be pushed on by something like this. It's at least worth another look.

The opinions of Dubs like above, who barely venture outside the M50 are hardly credible. I spend more time in Dublin than Cork these days, but I spend more time in jams in Cork when I'm there. It's absolutely ridiculous and we need to be a little bit less backward in our approach to transport links. Particularly the 'how can it work if it's not Dublin' attitude. The success of developments projects such as the Docklands in Cork will depend on advancements such as this.

Irish government only invest in roads and the more rural the better . Plenty of back waters and byways requiring full motorways apparently .

Irish cities are left with the crumbs

Pitcairn

Cork city and county councils have made a joint submission to the National Planning Framework:
http://www.corkcoco.ie/co/web//Cork%2520County%2520Council/Departments/Corporate%2520Affairs/Media%2520Releases?did=521598405


 Rapid Transit Corridor (RTC), running from Ballincollig town to Docklands and Mahon via the City Centre.

 Commuter Rail network with through running at Kent Station between the Mallow and Midleton lines, Interchange between Rail and the RTC and Electrification of the rail network serving Mallow, Monard, Midleton and Cobh.

 A high capacity Core Bus Network serving all of the main corridors within the Cork Metropolitan area including Cork Airport and connecting with inter-city and rural transport services.

 Strategic road infrastructure required to drive balanced regional economic growth and local assets to include the Port at Ringaskiddy.

 Enabling works and measures to realise the development of the City Docks and Tivoli.

 Rapid roll out of high quality broadband across the Region to penetrate all urban and rural areas.

 Continued investment in water management and renewable energy.

snotboogie

Pitcairn wrote: »

Cork city and county councils have made a joint submission to the National Planning Framework:
http://www.corkcoco.ie/co/web//Cork%2520County%2520Council/Departments/Corporate%2520Affairs/Media%2520Releases?did=521598405


 Rapid Transit Corridor (RTC), running from Ballincollig town to Docklands and Mahon via the City Centre.

 Commuter Rail network with through running at Kent Station between the Mallow and Midleton lines, Interchange between Rail and the RTC and Electrification of the rail network serving Mallow, Monard, Midleton and Cobh.

 A high capacity Core Bus Network serving all of the main corridors within the Cork Metropolitan area including Cork Airport and connecting with inter-city and rural transport services.

 Strategic road infrastructure required to drive balanced regional economic growth and local assets to include the Port at Ringaskiddy.

 Enabling works and measures to realise the development of the City Docks and Tivoli.

 Rapid roll out of high quality broadband across the Region to penetrate all urban and rural areas.

 Continued investment in water management and renewable energy.

Startling ambition from our local politicians right there; electrify the existing commuter rail, set up a bus corridor, more roads and a bus to the airport all to be completed as soon as 2050.

Rhinohippo

Pablo Escobar wrote: »

On what basis?

Anyway, when they did the research for this back in 2010, they found that the proposed route (Ballincollig-Mahon) didn't have the critical mass, but it would support BRT. That was at the height of the depression and things have drastically changed. We've had 2 census since then with major increases in population. The docklands development will be pushed on by something like this. It's at least worth another look.

The opinions of Dubs like above, who barely venture outside the M50 are hardly credible. I spend more time in Dublin than Cork these days, but I spend more time in jams in Cork when I'm there. It's absolutely ridiculous and we need to be a little bit less backward in our approach to transport links. Particularly the 'how can it work if it's not Dublin' attitude. The success of developments projects such as the Docklands in Cork will depend on advancements such as this.

Totally agree. There are definitely those who believe that Dublin is Ireland and that anything 'beyond the pale' is not even worth considering. I've spent lots of time in traffic jams (in Cork) and it's getting worse. I certainly wouldn't discount this idea of tram/metro service but realistically, it's probably one for the next generation.

cgcsb

Of course a modern tram system is well overdue for a City the size of Cork. The report into the matter found that a BRT system would be of better value because it'd cover more routes with the same money. Of course both should be done.

Both BRT and LRT run into the same problem, road space. Cork City Council is dragging it's heels on allocating road space to the bus service, which is why the bus service is cac.

Patrick St needs to have a car ban, A north south bus corridor would be easy to implement in Cork, the south link, Blackpool road and the quays have plenty of space to implement a continuous quality bus route, but for some reason this simple measure hasn't happened yet.

I think the way forward is to bring in several high quality bus corridors, ruthlessly allocating road space to buses and removing street parking and conflicting traffic movements. Make certain that every bus route has a very fast City-Suburb travel time, no more than 20 mins. Then start laying tram tracks on the busier routes.

SomeFool

Always thought it would be feasible to have the Mallow/Cork/little island commuter line include stops in Blackpool and Blarney, the line passes there anyway.

marno21

Cork needs to adapt the same mindset as the people in Galway.

They are currently getting a 550m motorway through the county, a city bypass costing 600m, a "transport project" to convert the now N6 for public transport use, and they still want light rail and a railway to Tuam.

Meanwhile Cork, which needs projects more than Galway, are shooting down ideas. It's sad how much infrastructure is needed in Cork.

DylanGLC

By 2050??? By then we'll have hover boards. Seriously though, I think this should be a higher priority than the Dublin Underground.

namloc1980

SomeFool wrote: »

Always thought it would be feasible to have the Mallow/Cork/little island commuter line include stops in Blackpool and Blarney, the line passes there anyway.

Blarney maybe but I doubt the short trip through the tunnel from Kent to Blackpool and back would generate many trips.

marno21

namloc1980 wrote: »

Blarney maybe but I doubt the short trip through the tunnel from Kent to Blackpool and back would generate many trips.

It's a start. Imagine how quicker it would be via rail compared to via road. It would also help for people from Mallow/Cobh/Midleton to commute to Blackpool or go shopping.

The fact that there's no station between Mallow and Kent is scandalous.

newacc2015

namloc1980 wrote: »

Have you ever been to Europe? Tram systems are the norm in cities bigger and smaller than Cork across Europe where authorities understand the long term benefits that proper planning and public transport can bring to an urban environment no matter it's size. It's just a severe lack of imagination, planning and foresight in Ireland that means people automatically shoot down suggestions like this with no reasoning other than the usual "but it's too small" and "shur cars and buses are grand".

I have been to cities in Europe and the thing about cities in Europe is people actually live in them. They work, shop and go to College in them too. Outside of Dublin, a city is a place where you work, shop and commute 30-45 mins away as you live in a off one house as you want a 'higher quality of life' etc.

Cities outside of Dublin don't have the density for a tram line. Go to Europe and you will see 5-8 storey is the norm in the entire city. Go to Cork and Galway and 2 storey max is the norm. These cities don't have the density for a Luasline. The deciding factor for a tramline is density, not population size. Cork does not have the density for a tramline.

If Cork, Limerick etc want a Luasline. They need to end this notion, that a city is for working and a one off house in the arsehole of nowhere is for living. Cork should be considered for a luasline, when the council has made meaningful efforts to enough people to live in the centre of the city.

A tramline needs a density of about 6,000 per kilometre to be viable. Cork has about half that. Cork City density is nearly of that of Dublin.

http://www.plan4sustainabletravel.org/key_themes/density/

namloc1980

Pitcairn wrote: »

Cork city and county councils have made a joint submission to the National Planning Framework:
http://www.corkcoco.ie/co/web//Cork%2520County%2520Council/Departments/Corporate%2520Affairs/Media%2520Releases?did=521598405

Any link to the actual submission? Can't find it in either council website?

Pitcairn wrote: »

 Rapid Transit Corridor (RTC), running from Ballincollig town to Docklands and Mahon via the City Centre.

The 2010 CATS plan and report on this is gathering dust on the shelves in City Hall. More plans but no action.

Pitcairn wrote: »

 Commuter Rail network with through running at Kent Station between the Mallow and Midleton lines, Interchange between Rail and the RTC and Electrification of the rail network serving Mallow, Monard, Midleton and Cobh.

Through running can happen today, why wait until 2050. Also there was talk of electrifying the line when the Midleton extension was being funded during the boom but instead they went for the cheapest possible rail solution - a single track using existing diesel trains.

Pitcairn wrote: »

 A high capacity Core Bus Network serving all of the main corridors within the Cork Metropolitan area including Cork Airport and connecting with inter-city and rural transport services.

We have to wait 33 years for this??

Pitcairn wrote: »

 Strategic road infrastructure required to drive balanced regional economic growth and local assets to include the Port at Ringaskiddy.

Some roads infrastructure will get the go ahead in the decade but very slow overall.

Pitcairn wrote: »

 Enabling works and measures to realise the development of the City Docks and Tivoli.

Enabling works?

Pitcairn wrote: »

 Rapid roll out of high quality broadband across the Region to penetrate all urban and rural areas.

Happening already and shouldn't take until 2050 to deliver.

Overall those items seem massively underwhelming for a 33 year plan and I see the rural councillors are out in force moaning already that it does nothing for them etc.

We love writing reports and plans in this country, but that's about it.

namloc1980

newacc2015 wrote: »

I have been to cities in Europe and the thing about cities in Europe is people actually live in them. They work, shop and go to College in them too. Outside of Dublin, a city is a place where you work, shop and commute 30-45 mins away as you live in a off one house as you want a 'higher quality of life' etc.

Cities outside of Dublin don't have the density for a tram line. Go to Europe and you will see 5-8 storey is the norm in the entire city. Go to Cork and Galway and 2 storey max is the norm. These cities don't have the density for a Luasline. The deciding factor for a tramline is density, not population size. Cork does not have the density for a tramline.

If Cork, Limerick etc want a Luasline. They need to end this notion, that a city is for working and a one off house in the arsehole of nowhere is for living. Cork should be considered for a luasline, when the council has made meaningful efforts to enough people to live in the centre of the city.

A tramline needs a density of about 6,000 per kilometre to be viable. Cork has about half that. Cork City density is nearly of that of Dublin.

http://www.plan4sustainabletravel.org/key_themes/density/

You're making the classical mistake of saying you must have a certain density of people first before you can get a high capacity public transport system. This is completely backwards but is typical of Ireland and makes little sense. We need to be putting in place the transport infrastructure now, and then plan and build density and employment and residential centres around it. You see the complications they've been having in Dublin trying to retrofit high quality public transport into the city.

j8wk2feszrnpao

namloc1980, you say that "we love writing reports and plans in this country, but that's about it" and "This is completely backwards but is typical of Ireland".
You do know you are part of "we"?

newacc2015 produced some facts and figures for the numbers required to run the project (so that the tax payer isnt propping up a project until it becomes some what self running, if it ever would).

I have no idea if this is required or not. But if we start comparing it to other European systems then we may need to start comparing what Joe Average is paying in tax to fund these type of projects (after mentioning this to a French colleague who informed me of what he pays in tax).