Has property gone mad again

There is a two bed bungalow for sale across from me with original 1980s windows, kitchen and bathroom its got potential to extend, 300k its had legions of viewers and builders vans outside and it only been for sale for a few days.
Are there really that many couples with the income to buy and renovated a house like that it could easily be another 100k or more to extend and renovate it.

hungry hypno toad

Is this in Cork or Donegal?

Teddington Cuddlesworth

Property inside the M50 is a premium (I'm assuming it is inside the m50)
There's not much out there and if you want a specific area there is even less.

We're looking at buying in south Dublin in the next 6 months, a first home, and we're struggling to find the right property in the right area for 500k


Edit, if the property you're talking about is as decrepit as it sounds it could take a lot more than 100k to renovate.

hungry hypno toad

hungry hypno toad wrote: »

Is this in Cork or Donegal?

The coast in the greater Dublin area.

BBMcQ

Gone mad depends on your perception of value. But everything is currently converging on the 400-450 house price range. This is where the average couple working in Dublin would be able to get a mortgage if they have a decent deposit saved up over the last 2-5 years. There isn't much demand for property way above this mark and anything below will go shooting up to converge at approx 400.

The central bank rules ensure a lid is kept on the pot, but the lid is quite high up there for a lot of ppl.

hungry hypno toad

mariaalice wrote: »

The coast in the greater Dublin area.

There's your answer.

TOEJOE

BBMcQ wrote: »

Gone mad depends on your perception of value. But everything is currently converging on the 400-450 house price range. This is where the average couple working in Dublin would be able to get a mortgage if they have a decent deposit saved up over the last 2-5 years. There isn't much demand for property way above this mark and anything below will go shooting up to converge at approx 400.

The central bank rules ensure a lid is kept on the pot, but the lid is quite high up there for a lot of ppl.

It depends where you live ,I live in Rathfarnham and two houses sold for over 600k after been on the market for a few weeks.The market is still buoyant and this is not good for first time buyers.

macnug

Funny you should start this post. I was looking at an old brochure last night from new build estate in 2006 in Enfield, Meath. 4 beds were going for 400k, 3 beds 360k. 4 bed in same estate is currently asking for 270k on daft so imo although things have gone a bit mad we havnt reached the 2006 level of madness yet.

Brioscai

I think so. Property where we are looking seems to be jumping back up around the 2005-2006 rates too.

newacc2015

It is the not the same as 2005/2006, where you could get a 100% mortgage from your bank. A lot people buying today are doing so with cash or a small mortgage. It is not a credit induced bubble again, which most people don't realise.

Just because prices are similar to 15 years ago, does not mean it is a repeat of 15 years ago. There are lots of parts of Dublin particularly on the higher end of the market ie €800k plus houses where houses are still half the price as 2007/2008.

catbear

I read during the week that while the average price is 50% above the 2012 dip, they were still 30% below their 07 zenith.

Credit isnt being shovelled out lile back then but there were a lot of people who held off buying after 08 so maybe the recent quick run up in prices is a rebalancing.

Luckysasha

The house I bought in Navan in 2005 is now the same asking price again. Seems in some places it has gone full circle

Browney7

Well if it ever goes full circle to when people are buying "investment" properties with a 5% yield when the deposit interest rate was 4% stop the ride, I'm getting off.

The central bank and government have doubled - if not tripled - the first time buyer market overnight by reducing the deposit requirement to be a flat 10% and giving the five percent help the developers grant. People who thought they would need a twenty % deposit could buy, people who had ten ready were good and even people who had five ready could go. The income limits have just ensured people can't go nuts and instead property in areas like crumlin, inchicore, Cabra, coolock, is going bananas instead.

Three bed in Cabra for 350k or a four bed in glasnevin for 500k - you don't need to be a genius to see where the value is there

catbear

trobbin wrote: »

What's your point?

I would have thought it obvious.

In some areas where there is demand prices are going up fast whereas areas with lower demand are still well below their credit inflated bubble price.

trobbin

Browney7 wrote: »

Well if it ever goes full circle to when people are buying "investment" properties with a 5% yield when the deposit interest rate was 4% stop the ride, I'm getting off.

The central bank and government have doubled - if not tripled - the first time buyer market overnight by reducing the deposit requirement to be a flat 10% and giving the five percent help the developers grant. People who thought they would need a twenty % deposit could buy, people who had ten ready were good and even people who had five ready could go. The income limits have just ensured people can't go nuts and instead property in areas like crumlin, inchicore, Cabra, coolock, is going bananas instead.

Three bed in Cabra for 350k or a four bed in glasnevin for 500k - you don't need to be a genius to see where the value is there

I've noticed the exact same trend. Darndale and Finglas I've seen over 300% increases in last 2/3yrs. It's people desperate for a home paying huge amounts to get anything, obviously this has resulted in the lower priced undesirable areas being bought up.

A guy I worked with bought a house cash in Darndale for €49,000 in 2012. He never liked It as it was on a particularly bad road. He sold it to a married couple with two kids for €180,000 last week. He told me he actually felt bad. He's also shocked how much it went up.

That won't continue, something's gonna happen.

Marcusm

Amusingly, I was speaking with a friend yesterday who has had a 1 bed apartment let since purchase in 2005. Bought with a 100% tracker mortgage of +0.25%, hadn't been aggressive on rent levels so currently under market (by 40%) with no ability to get it up to market. Interestingly, she realised during the week that if she wanted to sell it she would have to pay CGT as despite buying at more or less the top of the boom, current market price would be 10% or more higher than purchase price.

The more interesting piece is the mortgage - that almost nil rate is with keeping.

athtrasna

Mod note

A gentle reminder that this is accommodation and property. Constructive, civil, on topic posts please.

limnam

BBMcQ wrote: »

Gone mad depends on your perception of value. But everything is currently converging on the 400-450 house price range. This is where the average couple working in Dublin would be able to get a mortgage if they have a decent deposit saved up over the last 2-5 years. There isn't much demand for property way above this mark and anything below will go shooting up to converge at approx 400.

The central bank rules ensure a lid is kept on the pot, but the lid is quite high up there for a lot of ppl.

That's an odd average.

In order to come in under LTI both would need to be earning 60k+ a year to buy at 400-450k.

Average earnings for people in full-time employment is aprox 32k a year.

12% of households have income over 100k

I've no idea who's buying these 400k+ houses but it would seem 88% of the workforce can't afford to.

Granted the figures are for 2014 so probably slightly higher now...but still it amazes me how we get to an avg of 400-450k

newacc2015

limnam wrote: »

That's an odd average.

In order to come in under LTI both would need to be earning 60k+ a year to buy at 400-450k.

Average earnings for people in full-time employment is aprox 32k a year.

12% of households have income over 100k

I've no idea who's buying these 400k+ houses but it would seem 88% of the workforce can't afford to.

Granted the figures are for 2014 so probably slightly higher now...but still it amazes me how we get to an avg of 400-450k

The average is €32k per year. If you went to a top university and got into a good grad programme, you start on €32-40k per year which can rise to €100k within a few years. Plus bonuses etc.

There is a lot of really well paid jobs in Dublin, that people seem to forget about. Most of the Big 4, Big 10, finance jobs, IT jobs, etc are all in Dublin. If Revenue broke down high paid jobs per region, I would hazard a guess about 60-80% of them would be in Dublin. Maybe even higher considering nearly all well paid services jobs are in Dublin

zl1whqvjs75cdy

Just to build a bit on the above post. I am late 20s with my partner and looking to buy in the next 12 to 18 months. We recently were at a party with around 50 pretty close friends, as in I'd know what they all work at and their living situations etc. Of the 50 there, I'd say maybe 5 have the potential to earn enough to pay for a 400 k house. Now we aren't from the leafy suburbs of south Dublin, but we aren't from a particularly poor area either.

It is anecdotal evidence but I just don't see where the money is going to keep coming from. I am also pretty bitter about not being able to buy 2 years ago but thems the breaks I suppose.

myshirt

The people buying the houses are those who are in the main from Dublin:

1. Earn Dublin salary
2. Live at home while they save
3. Couple, no kids
4. Gift from parents (7 out of 10 FTB's getting help)

On opposite end of spectrum quite difficult to move to Dublin, pay the rent, save a deposit, and get on the ladder.

Banks will also give up to 4.0 to 4.5 times salary in January to those on 70k or more if you get them in January. One could have 70, the other 40, and put together you'll get the 400-450k you need.

trobbin

myshirt wrote: »

The people buying the houses are those who are in the main from Dublin:

1. Earn Dublin salary
2. Live at home while they save
3. Couple, no kids
4. Gift from parents (7 out of 10 FTB's getting help)

On opposite end of spectrum quite difficult to move to Dublin, pay the rent, save a deposit, and get on the ladder.

Banks will also give up to 4.0 to 4.5 times salary in January to those on 70k or more if you get them in January. One could have 70, the other 40, and put together you'll get the 400-450k you need.

So can banks give 4/4.5 in January, but only 3/3.5 rest of year? I've never heard of this. Would make sense with prices having sharply in creased over the last few months.

trobbin

donkeyoaty0099 wrote: »

Just to build a bit on the above post. I am late 20s with my partner and looking to buy in the next 12 to 18 months. We recently were at a party with around 50 pretty close friends, as in I'd know what they all work at and their living situations etc. Of the 50 there, I'd say maybe 5 have the potential to earn enough to pay for a 400 k house. Now we aren't from the leafy suburbs of south Dublin, but we aren't from a particularly poor area either.

It is anecdotal evidence but I just don't see where the money is going to keep coming from. I am also pretty bitter about not being able to buy 2 years ago but thems the breaks I suppose.

You call it "anecdotal evidence" and I suppose it is, but IMO that type of information is gold. You can't read about that on graphs and chart. I've also had very similar conversations.

James 007

Teddington Cuddlesworth wrote: »

Property inside the M50 is a premium (I'm assuming it is inside the m50)
There's not much out there and if you want a specific area there is even less.

We're looking at buying in south Dublin in the next 6 months, a first home, and we're struggling to find the right property in the right area for 500k


Edit, if the property you're talking about is as decrepit as it sounds it could take a lot more than 100k to renovate.

My cousin bought a house in Mount Merrion for €520k for his daughter, his daughter has certain health issues, still in school, and this house is not far from where they live. Its a bungalow only, needs work but does have a large site. He bought at the bottom of the market.

My house in Drumcondra is back to the asking price that was on offer in 2004.

ThisRegard

limnam wrote: »

I've no idea who's buying these 400k+ houses but it would seem 88% of the workforce can't afford to.

Granted the figures are for 2014 so probably slightly higher now...but still it amazes me how we get to an avg of 400-450k

donkeyoaty0099 wrote: »

Just to build a bit on the above post. I am late 20s with my partner and looking to buy in the next 12 to 18 months. We recently were at a party with around 50 pretty close friends, as in I'd know what they all work at and their living situations etc. Of the 50 there, I'd say maybe 5 have the potential to earn enough to pay for a 400 k house. Now we aren't from the leafy suburbs of south Dublin, but we aren't from a particularly poor area either.

It is anecdotal evidence but I just don't see where the money is going to keep coming from. I am also pretty bitter about not being able to buy 2 years ago but thems the breaks I suppose.

People trading up, with reasonably good jobs could manage it handily enough.

zl1whqvjs75cdy

ThisRegard wrote: »

People trading up, with reasonably good jobs could manage it handily enough.

True, Im looking at if from a first time buyer point if view. Don't know many trader uppers yet.

ThisRegard

donkeyoaty0099 wrote: »

True, Im looking at if from a first time buyer point if view. Don't know many trader uppers yet.

That'll probably down to your age being in your 20s. I don't know any FTB'ers in my age group, they're all trading up.

koheim

limnam wrote: »

That's an odd average.

In order to come in under LTI both would need to be earning 60k+ a year to buy at 400-450k.

Average earnings for people in full-time employment is aprox 32k a year.

12% of households have income over 100k

I've no idea who's buying these 400k+ houses but it would seem 88% of the workforce can't afford to.

Granted the figures are for 2014 so probably slightly higher now...but still it amazes me how we get to an avg of 400-450k

This were people are so wrong!! Average annual earnings for full time employees in 2015 were 45k. Expect this to be closer to 50k in 2017. In Dublin higher again...
CSO link: http://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/er/elca/earningsandlabourcostsannualdata2015/

4068ac1elhodqr

If prices continue to rise, can foresee a rise in professional budget (or even Japanese cubical type) hotels for the weekday contract worker, who just needs 8-10hrs rest during the 10-12hr work day.

Before heading off to the countryside or even sunny Europa for the weekend break, on Friday evening, back early Monday.

In the North budget chain 'easyHotel' is planning to open its first location there, guessing it's primarily aimed at the worker/commuter. Some airports even have these type of mini-hotels on-site, for transfer/delays.

limnam

newacc2015 wrote: »

The average is €32k per year. If you went to a top university and got into a good grad programme, you start on €32-40k per year which can rise to €100k within a few years. Plus bonuses etc.

You're not describing average.

88% of the work force doesn't earn enough to buy a 400k+ house

limnam

koheim wrote: »

This were people are so wrong!! Average annual earnings for full time employees in 2015 were 45k. Expect this to be closer to 50k in 2017. In Dublin higher again...
CSO link: http://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/er/elca/earningsandlabourcostsannualdata2015/

Maybe I'm struggling to read the report.

It shows average earnings of 36k

which leaves you 18k short combined to buy 400k+

in fact even a combined income of 100k only gives 350k on lti

myshirt

trobbin wrote: »

So can banks give 4/4.5 in January, but only 3/3.5 rest of year? I've never heard of this. Would make sense with prices having sharply in creased over the last few months.

A certain portion of their lending can be above the 3.5 times limit.

koheim

limnam wrote: »

Maybe I'm struggling to read the report.

It shows average earnings of 36k

which leaves you 18k short combined to buy 400k+

in fact even a combined income of 100k only gives 350k on lti

You must be, look further down. Here is a copy and paste "
Average annual earnings for full-time employees in 2015 were €45,075"

limnam

koheim wrote: »

You must be, look further down. Here is a copy and paste "
Average annual earnings for full-time employees in 2015 were €45,075"

Which on LTI will give you 315k. Still a long way way from 400-450k

limnam

ThisRegard wrote: »

That'll probably down to your age being in your 20s. I don't know any FTB'ers in my age group, they're all trading up.

In my age group they're all straddled with debt and in negative equity.

or bankrupt.

:pac:

NinjaTruncs

limnam wrote: »

Which on LTI will give you 315k. Still a long way way from 400-450k

But the 20% deposit will bring you to 400k

limnam

NinjaTruncs wrote: »

But the 20% deposit will bring you to 400k

Get you to about 375.

Saving 62k while assuming you're renting in Dublin is no easy task.

On average you'll have 1.5k going out the door a month on rent alone.

This is if you're lucky enough to have.

two people on the average, no kids. Don't smoke / drink

So yeah. If you got two hermits living at home childless.

it's doable.

I just don't see how there's enough to make it "average"

NinjaTruncs

limnam wrote: »

Get you to about 375.

Saving 62k while assuming you're renting in Dublin is no easy task.

On average you'll have 1.5k going out the door a month on rent alone.

This is if you're lucky enough to have.

two people on the average, no kids. Don't smoke / drink

So yeah. If you got two hermits living at home childless.

it's doable.

I just don't see how there's enough to make it "average"

The 20% is of the house price not the mortgage amount.

limnam

NinjaTruncs wrote: »

The 20% is of the house price not the mortgage amount.

Which makes it even higher..

e.g. harder to reach.

NinjaTruncs

limnam wrote: »

Which makes it even higher..

What? I was pointing out that someone who could get a mortgage of 315 pretty much could afford a 400k house as their 20% deposit would make up the rest of the amount.

Saving ability is something else, but if you are saving for a house and have a combined income of 90k, you should be able to save 10 - 15k a year imo. Even when paying rent.

limnam

looking at dafts report for q4 2016

Which seems have dublin between 290-350 which sounds a bit more "reasonable"

Yourself isit

ThisRegard wrote: »

People trading up, with reasonably good jobs could manage it handily enough.

Trading up from what? On general we are taking about first time buyers here are even some second time buyers are on negative equity.

400k isnt average. (And remember people used to be able to buy on below average salaries).

limnam

NinjaTruncs wrote: »

What? I was pointing out that someone who could get a mortgage of 315 pretty much could afford a 400k house as their 20% deposit would make up the rest of the amount.

Saving ability is something else, but if you are saving for a house and have a combined income of 90k, you should be able to save 10 - 15k a year imo. Even when paying rent.

Right and I'm pointing out it been higher means it's even harder to save it.

if you're saving 10k a year it's going to take ugh 6+ years

If you have kids, child care, car payments any sort of life it's going to take longer.

Samuel T. Cogley

It's not mental until it hit's one bed apartments. Come on you lads!!! I've a one bed I want to dump for 250K.

limnam

Samuel T. Cogley wrote: »

It's not mental until it hit's one bed apartments. Come on you lads!!! I've a one bed I want to dump for 250K.

I'll buy it if you threaten to increase it by 10k every month you can't sell it

cnocbui

No; 'mental' is when you sell your house, and on the day of settlement, the buyer flips it for a profit of €52 K on the same day (Auckland NZ).

Samuel T. Cogley

Joking aside 3 bed houses are sub 350K in D5,D7,D9 and D13 and Sub 275K in D10, D11, D12 and D15 according to the DAFT report for Q4 2016. I think those figures might be a little conservative. However working class people are going to have to get used to buying in working class areas. It's not unreasonable to assume a 60K household income yielding a mortgage of 210K. That puts the second range there within reach with people in upper end working class jobs able to broaden their reach into D5 and D7 if they wish.

It's starting to get out of hand, but I don't think it's there yet. If we want Dublin to be a successful capital, we'd better get used to capital city prices.

limnam

Samuel T. Cogley wrote: »

Joking aside 3 bed houses are sub 350K in D5,D7,D9 and D13 and Sub 275K in D10, D11, D12 and D15 according to the DAFT report for Q4 2016. I think those figures might be a little conservative. However working class people are going to have to get used to buying in working class areas. It's not unreasonable to assume a 60K household income yielding a mortgage of 210K. That puts the second range there within reach with people in upper end working class jobs able to broaden their reach into D5 and D7 if they wish.

It's starting to get out of hand, but I don't think it's there yet. If we want Dublin to be a successful capital, we'd better get used to capital city prices.

Lets all just bail into longford :pac:

Samuel T. Cogley

limnam wrote: »

Lets all just bail into longford :pac:

I don't think areas connected by only road and the answer really but Balbriggan still has two bed apartments within reach of a couple on minimum wage.

Yourself isit

Samuel T. Cogley wrote: »

Joking aside 3 bed houses are sub 350K in D5,D7,D9 and D13 and Sub 275K in D10, D11, D12 and D15 according to the DAFT report for Q4 2016. I think those figures might be a little conservative. However working class people are going to have to get used to buying in working class areas. It's not unreasonable to assume a 60K household income yielding a mortgage of 210K. That puts the second range there within reach with people in upper end working class jobs able to broaden their reach into D5 and D7 if they wish.

It's starting to get out of hand, but I don't think it's there yet. If we want Dublin to be a successful capital, we'd better get used to capital city prices.

The term "capital" is meaningless with regards to house prices. In some countries the capital has the highest house prices, in other countries it doesnt.

Why should we get used to high house prices and rent and how do high prices help the economy in general anyway? Why do Google employees benefit from paying more in rent? Why would that attract more FDI?

We can attract people and have cheap houses by building more houses.

Yourself isit

Samuel T. Cogley wrote: »

I don't think areas connected by only road and the answer really but Balbriggan still has two bed apartments within reach of a couple on minimum wage.

Shunt the minimum wage workers (but the workers not the unemployed) out of the city?