KT- herd health plan

jfh

Hi,
It's looking like my herd health plan is going to be 200, interested to know if this is the general figure that's going around.

Don't dispute the fact that it will be useful, but it wasn't very transparent at the start of the programme & if I'm going to do this, want to make it as beneficial as possible so keen to get the ball rolling.
Anyone else do this?
If so what did ye get out of it.
Thanks

jfh

Well lads & lasses,
Anyone do this health plan?

tanko

Not yet, they're supposed to be done by the end of May i think. All the vets around here are on top of their heads with calvings, how are they supposed to get time for this.
The whole KT scheme is a feckin shambles.

jfh

Yes timing is wrong. It's a time consuming exercise too according to my vet, 2hrs on farm & another few hours to submit plan online.
I'll know more after wed

Farrell

Is it only a HErd Health Plan we've to do or is a profit monitor needed too

tanko

You have to do a Farm improvement plan which includes a profit monitor, a breeding plan, a grass management plan, an animal health plan and a health and safety worksheet.
Oh and you have to give Teagasc your PPS number too.

Farrell

tanko wrote: »

You have to do a Farm improvement plan which includes a profit monitor, a breeding plan, a grass management plan, an animal health plan and a health and safety worksheet.
Oh and you have to give Teagasc your PPS number too.

Nice bit so
Got text from Advisor telling PPS number being sent

The man in red and black

tanko wrote: »

You have to do a Farm improvement plan which includes a profit monitor, a breeding plan, a grass management plan, an animal health plan and a health and safety worksheet.
Oh and you have to give Teagasc your PPS number too.

And your mothers maiden name and the name of your first pet

Muckit

It would have made great sense if all of this could have been done during the Autumn. All cattle in and less of a work load perhaps on vet and farmer.

Vets are up the walls now with calvings and farmers will be busy getting stock to grass, BPS and thinking about first cut silage etc.

The portal for the vet to upload the data isn't even operational from what I've heard. I don't think there's even a handful of herd health plans done yet.

alps

Sorry now, but all of those of you that were bought so cheaply into this scheme, need to suck it up....

Grueller

alps wrote: »

Sorry now, but all of those of you that were bought so cheaply into this scheme, need to suck it up....

Well done. First I told you so merchant in through the door.

Buford T. Justice XIX

Talking to my vet today and he reckons there will have to be an extension as there simply won't be time for vets to get the plans done along with their normal work as well.

My KT advisor is of the same opinion.

The man in red and black

Buford T. Justice V wrote: »

Talking to my vet today and he reckons there will have to be an extension as there simply won't be time for vets to get the plans done along with their normal work as well.

My KT advisor is of the same opinion.

A big part of the problem unfortunately the IT company setting up the online portal for vets to complete the forms screwed up and are months late delivery the site. So the full thing couldn't be done. They were hoping to have it online around this week or last week. Great timing unfortunately.

Oldira

tanko wrote: »

You have to do a Farm improvement plan which includes a profit monitor, a breeding plan, a grass management plan, an animal health plan and a health and safety worksheet.
Oh and you have to give Teagasc your PPS number too.

Yes but in most cases the KTadvisor is preparing and submitting most of these. They are getting €500 per member so they should earn it.

jfh

Oldira wrote: »

Yes but in most cases the KTadvisor is preparing and submitting most of these. They are getting €500 per member so they should earn it.

dunno about that, i had the vet out already.
maybe it's just my KT advisor but he wanted nothing to do with it

Oldira

jfh wrote: »

dunno about that, i had the vet out already.
maybe it's just my KT advisor but he wanted nothing to do with it

I should have said except the Health Plan. Thats up to the farmer and his vet. Other than that our advisor is doing all the paperwork/plans.

brownswiss

Any update ? Mine cost €100 . Total vet scam. I am surprised the IFA did not fight this harder. We have a good facilitator who knows about the sheep business so I am very happy from that end. It is at least 2 years since the vet has been here.He has not a clue what is going on so it is a bit rich that he gets such a big slice of the cake.
I think the KT programme is great and I do not think we need to make money out of it but for the vets to fight so hard to get their hands on our little hand out is sickening

jfh

brownswiss wrote: »

Any update ? Mine cost €100 . Total vet scam. I am surprised the IFA did not fight this harder. We have a good facilitator who knows about the sheep business so I am very happy from that end. It is at least 2 years since the vet has been here.He has not a clue what is going on so it is a bit rich that he gets such a big slice of the cake.
I think the KT programme is great and I do not think we need to make money out of it but for the vets to fight so hard to get their hands on our little hand out is sickening

You got cheap, I paid 200

Muckit

Only got mine done the other day. No idea yet of cost but found it a good enough exercise. Hopefully we get paid out now asap but l wouldn't hold my breath!

Does the herd health plan need to b done every year?

brownswiss

jfh wrote: »

You got cheap, I paid 200

..

Are you in sheep or was it a dairy plan ?. My vet said €100 was the agreed figure.

Limestone Cowboy

Muckit wrote: »

Only got mine done the other day. No idea yet of cost but found it a good enough exercise. Hopefully we get paid out now asap but l wouldn't hold my breath!

Does the herd health plan need to b done every year?

Did mine the other day too, 200 for the vet. Don't think I'm much the wiser after it, seemed like a box ticking exercise to me. Asked him would he sit in the jeep and take a look through the cows and calves that were a few hundred yards away and he didn't want to know about it, wouldn't have taken 10 minutes and he may have spotted some issues I haven't. Daylight robbery and no shame in it.

brownswiss

Limestone Cowboy wrote: »

Did mine the other day too, 200 for the vet. Don't think I'm much the wiser after it, seemed like a box ticking exercise to me. Asked him would he sit in the jeep and take a look through the cows and calves that were a few hundred yards away and he didn't want to know about it, wouldn't have taken 10 minutes and he may have spotted some issues I haven't. Daylight robbery and no shame in it.

My vet was a bit sheepish asking for the €100 as we both knew it was just box ticking.....

alps

brownswiss wrote: »

Any update ? Mine cost €100 . Total vet scam. I am surprised the IFA did not fight this harder.

You are the one who signed up to it...

I can tell you for a fact that the resistance to the whole thing was such that many of the the IFA officers in Cork are gone from their discussion groups over it....many progressive discussion groups did not partake because of similar resistance, but the promise of a nosebag suckered in the majority. ...

Don't blame anyone else...

Sam Kade

jfh wrote: »

Hi,
It's looking like my herd health plan is going to be 200, interested to know if this is the general figure that's going around.

Don't dispute the fact that it will be useful, but it wasn't very transparent at the start of the programme & if I'm going to do this, want to make it as beneficial as possible so keen to get the ball rolling.
Anyone else do this?
If so what did ye get out of it.
Thanks

Same as what my local vet is charging. Is this volountary?

Sam Kade

Limestone Cowboy wrote: »

Did mine the other day too, 200 for the vet. Don't think I'm much the wiser after it, seemed like a box ticking exercise to me. Asked him would he sit in the jeep and take a look through the cows and calves that were a few hundred yards away and he didn't want to know about it, wouldn't have taken 10 minutes and he may have spotted some issues I haven't. Daylight robbery and no shame in it.

They need to rename it, KT health scam.

brownswiss

alps wrote: »

You are the one who signed up to it...

I can tell you for a fact that the resistance to the whole thing was such that many of the the IFA officers in Cork are gone from their discussion groups over it....many progressive discussion groups did not partake because of similar resistance, but the promise of a nosebag suckered in the majority. ...

Don't blame anyone else...

..... . From what angle are you knocking the programme and blaming the participants for signing up to it ? Who am I blaming & for what?...The vets for forcing their way into the programme. ..The KT programme is very beneficial and is not meant to be a nosebag as you say.... and definitely was not meant to be a nosebag for the vets. The KT money was meant to cover costs but I doubt very much that from €100 to €200 vet charges were anticipated

Bleating Lamb

brownswiss wrote: »

..

Are you in sheep or was it a dairy plan ?. My vet said €100 was the agreed figure.

Were you getting a sheep plan done Brownswiss?

Have to get a sheep one done with my vet so interested to know if 100 euro is the 'expected fee'.
Thanks.

brownswiss

Bleating Lamb wrote: »

Were you getting a sheep plan done Brownswiss?

Have to get a sheep one done with my vet so interested to know if 100 euro is the 'expected fee'.
Thanks.

.. Yes a sheep plan and the Vet said €100 was the agreed figure. Presume he means agreed with the vet union

greysides

Ive done a few of these at this stage. The worksheets are very generic and don't fit every enterprise. I like the idea behind them but they are too regimented so the execution of them can be very much a ticking the box exercise. Where someone has a problem covered by one of the modules it can be useful and those KTs can be satisfying. The farmers own attitude comes into it. Some just want to rush through it so its hard to make it useful then.
People in discussion groups are already those more enthusiastic about what they are doing and are very likely to be already doing things as they should leaving recommendations hard to find. In some cases there may be some obvious defects but they haven't led to problems so there's going to be no interest in sorting them.
The programme still has some stupid errors. There's a problem getting 'associations' working for joint ownerships, the paper version where SMS messages doesn't work is so slow its going to cause serious problems where vets are approached too close to the deadline. Of course, until a vet is asked to do one he has no idea who will need them done. Some of the worksheets weren't properly proofread. There's a box in the sheep one, I think, that can be filled on the excel sheet, etc, etc.
As regards costs, while it will vary with what's done, €100 doesn't seem excessive given the time spent with the farmer and the unseen time filling out the sheet on the computer and, in my case at least, forwarding on the recommendations to the client.
I try to make every KT visit beneficial as I can see this type of work becoming more important in the future. Irish farmers have traditionally not seen this type of approach as useful but maybe that will change for some. There's a lot using Ag. advisors, doesn't it make sense to get animal health advice from vets?

jfh

Sam Kade wrote: »

Same as what my local vet is charging. Is this volountary?

No not voluntary, this is the set price for all customers with this vet practice.

The man in red and black

greysides wrote: »

The farmers own attitude comes into it. Some just want to rush through it so its hard to make it useful then.

Found attitude a huge factor. Spent two hours on a farm one day with one of the most thorough and enthusiastic farmers I've ever come across. Have done others where it was like pulling teeth with farmers not giving accurate statistics at all and having no interest in any improvements. With this scheme only worth small money at the end of the day, you'd have to wonder why people that aren't very interested in herd health went into it at all.

Are people aware the facilitators are getting a nice bit of money out of this scheme? It's just being paid direct by Dept instead of by the farmer but still likely taken out of the same pot.

brownswiss

The man in red and black wrote: »

Found attitude a huge factor. Spent two hours on a farm one day with one of the most thorough and enthusiastic farmers I've ever come across. Have done others where it was like pulling teeth with farmers not giving accurate statistics at all and having no interest in any improvements. With this scheme only worth small money at the end of the day, you'd have to wonder why people that aren't very interested in herd health went into it at all.

Are people aware the facilitators are getting a nice bit of money out of this scheme? It's just being paid direct by Dept instead of by the farmer but still likely taken out of the same pot.

... The pot to me was €750. What the dept pays to Teagasc or the Facilitators is out of my control. The Facilitator is very familiar with all our sheep enterprises and his knowledge of sheep health issues is second to none. The Facilitator was a necessary part of the scheme and the few € he gets is hard earned . The vets on the other hand jumped on the bandwagon and took money directly from our little hand out

Lizard_Moon

brownswiss wrote: »

... The pot to me was €750. What the dept pays to Teagasc or the Facilitators is out of my control. The Facilitator is very familiar with all our sheep enterprises and his knowledge of sheep health issues is second to none. The Facilitator was a necessary part of the scheme and the few € he gets is hard earned . The vets on the other hand jumped on the bandwagon and took money directly from our little hand out

The facilitators get over 50% of the money available for the scheme so they are directly taking money from you.

I agree with the other posters that whilst the scheme has flaws- the excel sheet being one- we need to promote the idea of preventative medicine. If you can prevent disease you will directly save money and have better animals for sale. I can only speak for the cattle KT but with an interested farmer they were a beneficial excercise. I learnt more about their enterprises as a whole and the stresses involved and I hope any advice I gave can help them in the future.

I see they have extended the deadline today- personally I am dismayed as another month wondering who is going to turn up at the last minute with a paper association that will take a week to process

greysides

Lizard_Moon wrote: »

I see they have extended the deadline today- personally I am dismayed as another month wondering who is going to turn up at the last minute with a paper association that will take a week to process

I know how you feel. It takes a little pressure off but drags the whole affair out for longer. I'd one of those paper associations turn up today, a week before the deadline, as it was, and it could quite possibly at this stage take over a week to be sorted.

Bleating Lamb

Lizard_Moon wrote: »

The facilitators get over 50% of the money available for the scheme so they are directly taking money from you.

I agree with the other posters that whilst the scheme has flaws- the excel sheet being one- we need to promote the idea of preventative medicine. If you can prevent disease you will directly save money and have better animals for sale. I can only speak for the cattle KT but with an interested farmer they were a beneficial excercise. I learnt more about their enterprises as a whole and the stresses involved and I hope any advice I gave can help them in the future.

I see they have extended the deadline today- personally I am dismayed as another month wondering who is going to turn up at the last minute with a paper association that will take a week to process

Where did you see that the facilitator takes half of money involved?

Grueller

€750 per herd owner. The facilitator gets €500 for every participant in the kt group. Not quite half, but as much as the farmer gets by the time the vet is paid.

Bass Reeves

Grueller wrote: »

€750 per herd owner. The facilitator gets €500 for every participant in the kt group. Not quite half, but as much as the farmer gets by the time the vet is paid.

As well we all need to do Heard health plans what will they cost 1-200/plan and a nutrient plan in Y2. This is in year one. What will happen in Y2 and Y3 will there be other extra'

N plans for GLAS are costing nearly 500 euro from Teagasc. So over three year farmers get 2100 - 150- 350 so that is 1600 euro. Faculitors get 13-1500 euro and vet gets 1-200 and then faculitor/ teagasc get more for N-Plan ??????

roosky

done the herd health plan yesterday and was very let down.

I had gotten over the €150 price tag and was glad to be pushed into being proactive about the health of the flock and in turn the profitability.

Vet came out I had stock organised for his ease, he never looked at a sheep !

Wrote all on the bonnet of the jeep as did I with the cheque book!

It was merely a survey of what im doing, no real plan or discussion,

Maybe the vets at fault or how did other find it?

croot

roosky wrote: »

done the herd health plan yesterday and was very let down.

I had gotten over the €150 price tag and was glad to be pushed into being proactive about the health of the flock and in turn the profitability.

Vet came out I had stock organised for his ease, he never looked at a sheep !

Wrote all on the bonnet of the jeep as did I with the cheque book!

It was merely a survey of what im doing, no real plan or discussion,

Maybe the vets at fault or how did other find it?

Vet at fault I think.

My vet took faecal samples to see if there was worm or fluke, blooded a few to see if there was any ibr and blooded a late calf to see if he got enough colostrum. There was a fairly generic questioner alright that wasn't much value.

He gave me recommendations after the test results came back so I thought it was worthwhile but obviously some vets aren't putting much effort in.

jfh

croot wrote: »

Vet at fault I think.

My vet took faecal samples to see if there was worm or fluke, blooded a few to see if there was any ibr and blooded a late calf to see if he got enough colostrum. There was a fairly generic questioner alright that wasn't much value.

He gave me recommendations after the test results came back so I thought it was worthwhile but obviously some vets aren't putting much effort in.

sounds like a decent Vet.
mine was more of a kitchen table exercise also..

i would have gotten over the 200 if it was money well spent but i simply dont see the ROI on this.
i did not learn anything i didn't already know

brownswiss

roosky wrote: »

done the herd health plan yesterday and was very let down.

I had gotten over the €150 price tag and was glad to be pushed into being proactive about the health of the flock and in turn the profitability.

Vet came out I had stock organised for his ease, he never looked at a sheep !

Wrote all on the bonnet of the jeep as did I with the cheque book!

It was merely a survey of what im doing, no real plan or discussion,

Maybe the vets at fault or how did other find it?

.... Surprised he charged you €150 and did nothing as my vet said €100 was agreed figure . My experience was equally worthless if compared to a chat with the KT facilitator .

Buford T. Justice XIX

jfh wrote: »

sounds like a decent Vet.
mine was more of a kitchen table exercise also..

i would have gotten over the 200 if it was money well spent but i simply dont see the ROI on this.
i did not learn anything i didn't already know

brownswiss wrote: »

.... Surprised he charged you €150 and did nothing as my vet said €100 was agreed figure . My experience was equally worthless if compared to a chat with the KT facilitator .

Did mine on Saturday, 100 euro for the vet to tell me the exact same things he tells me anyway when he is in my yard dealing with the usual problems that crop up during the year.

Lizard_Moon

Bleating Lamb wrote: »

Where did you see that the facilitator takes half of money involved?

Of the overall money set aside for the scheme from the RDP funding, I believe, about 50% goes to facilitators and 50% goes to the farmers involved.
That's what I mean by them getting 1/2 the money- numbers approx.
I am not saying they are not earning it but they are being paid for their time directly by the government.

There was no agreed figure for the Animal Health Measures (AHMs). They are based upon the Johnes VRAMP plan, the calf health and biosecurity, and trained vets are paid a fee by AHI to do this.

Regarding what vets do on farm- this is not a full herd health plan. We have to complete the questionnaire and discuss with the farmer what they are concerned about and what has been highlighted by the questions. We then come up with some recommendations. Any extra work- such as faecal samples, blood samples are on top of the AHMs.

We don't look at the cattle as at this time they are away in the fields and add little unless there is an issue the farmer is concerned with and then of course we can check them out. The buildings are more important for the questionnaire. Ideally this work would have been done before spring as cattle and buildings can be looked at.

I have done a couple of completely kitchen table ones where they buy bullocks in spring, have no sheds and I am familiar with their setup from testing.

KatyMac

Happy Days! last meeting done last night.
Teagasc man was in a sweat as his other meetings attracted an inspector. Don't think he settled until half 8. One lad was a bit late and the face on your man!!!

Signpost

Whats the penalty if you bail out after year 1? I'm in another 2 groups that are great, one for young farmers and one general one.
I've everything done for Y1 of KT as of today. Only person in group with 100% attendance, as a matter of fact only person with probably over 80%. Vet visit was an absolute joke, went through what I was doing and graded it 1 to 10 and as I have no health issues told me stay doing as I'm doing and left. Didnt look at anything except the inside of a biscuit tin & filled out a few A4 pages.
Discussions are pointless crap being discussed because the dept say so.
by the time I've paid Vet, Herd Plus, Teagasc Fees for filling in crap, + add on diseal to meetings, missing out on 4 hours of work between going and getting home its actually costing money for no gain what so ever. Very disappointing scheme

jfh

anyone else do year 2 of the herd health plan? if so, same cost as year 1?

Muckit

jfh wrote: »

anyone else do year 2 of the herd health plan? if so, same cost as year 1?

No but interested to hear what the story is. All meetings finished this ages but to be honest l forgot about this!

Limestone Cowboy

Anyone else still waiting to be paid for 2017? Bit of a joke at this stage. Nearly 12 months now since I paid the vet for his visit and didn't see a penny yet.

Aravo

Still have 2 more meetings to do here. Actually only one meeting held so far. I attended 2 events myself.

Aravo

Limestone Cowboy wrote:

Anyone else still waiting to be paid for 2017? Bit of a joke at this stage. Nearly 12 months now since I paid the vet for his visit and didn't see a penny yet.

I take it your with a private operator. And there is another vet fee for updated plan this year. Imagine the farmers who signed up for both KT groups for €750 & €375. Bet they are sorry for joining the second one.

Limestone Cowboy

Aravo wrote: »

I take it your with a private operator. And there is another vet fee for updated plan this year. Imagine the farmers who signed up for both KT groups for €750 & €375. Bet they are sorry for joining the second one.

Ya but everyone else in my group is paid. We transferred herd to my name start of 17 and that's the reason I was told it's held up.