Importing a VAT qualifying car from UK

angryInch

Hi all, and thanks in advance for any help I can get about this.

So, I was looking at importing a 2016 car from the UK.
Because I do not want to get hit with Irish VAT on import, I have been making sure the cars have been over 6 months old and with over 6'000km on the clock.
However, for one car I rang about, the dealer (a main BMW dealer) cited that the car I was ringing about was VAT-qualifying and, as I was exporting, I would be able to fill out form VAT411 and reclaim the UK VAT.
The car was over 6 months old (Registered May 2016) and over 6'000 kms (10,020 miles) so would not be liable for Irish VAT.
I read as much documentation as I could find on this, and it seems that if the UK deem a car a "New means of transport" and it is being exported within 2 months that VAT can be recovered, if it is VAT-qualifying. However the definition of "New means of transport" is supposed to be the same EU wide, and is defined for cars as over 6 months after first entry into service and with over 6'000km no the clock.

I'm pretty confused on this, as it all does not seem to add up.

The revenue define "first entry into service" as (link here)

In the case of motor vehicles, the 'date of first entry into service' is generally the date on which the vehicle was registered, unless the registration was delayed for any reason.​

so that looks like they will use whatever is on the V5.

However, the UK define it as (link here)

the date it was made available to the first purchaser, or
the date it was taken into use for demonstration purposes by its manufacturer or sole concessionaire​

Is it possible that this car is falling between the cracks in the two countries definition of "first entry into service"?

Anyone have any insight or experience of the above?

slave1

You are correct with the fact the car must be more than 6 months old at time of purchase but it does not need to me more than 6,000kms at time of purchase, it needs to be more than 6,000km at time of VRT registration.

So, if you look at a 7month old car with 5,000kms on the clock at time of purchase then you will have 29/30 days after you take her into the state to drive up the odometer past the 6,000kms mark.

Nothing underhand in this, I've done it before and I'm doing it again right now on the car I imported Saturday, around 2,600kms on her and will have her north of VRT appointment which I've arranged for day 29!

KCross

Not sure of your exact question. Are you asking, as a private citizen, if you can claim the VAT back from the UK and then pay no VAT here and in effect get a zero VAT car? Is that the question?

Legally, no. Would you get away with it, maybe, but thats a big gamble for whoever owns the VAT number you give as they will leave themselves open to an audit if it gets flagged.

The form you linked to even says it.... "Member State of destination of new means of transport in which VAT will be paid"

To claim the VAT back off from the UK you have to provide a valid IE vat number and they can, and probably will, check that that VAT number is valid.
http://ec.europa.eu/taxation_customs/vies/


Also, when you go to do the VRT they ask for a VAT invoice. If it has no VAT paid it will set off alarm bells.

Can you clarify your question in case I'm answering the wrong one!?

angryInch

No, I think you answered my question alright KCross.

You don't need a VAT number for form VAT411, its for private individuals reclaiming VAT, not businesses, therefore there is no need of VAT numbers at all.

The need for a VAT invoice for VRT is probably the sticky wicket here (and the fact that this is at best a loophole, at worst just completely illegal), as the invoice would show zero vat.

Sam Russell

VAT has to be paid. If it is not paid there, it must be paid here (where there is anywhere).

The Revenue like to collect VAT and will check with Swansea - and since they also collect VRT, they will definitely check with Swansea if VAT has not been paid.

colm_mcm

But if the mileage goes above the limits in the meantime, what can they do?

Sam Russell

colm_mcm wrote: »

But if the mileage goes above the limits in the meantime, what can they do?

If VAT was not paid there, it must be paid here (wherever there is). Simples.

Which bit of that do you not understand?

colm_mcm

I know somebody who imported a vat qualifying car from NI 4 years ago and didn't have to pay VAT down here because the mileage went beyond the lower limit in between buying it and VRTing it, that's why I don't understand.
This is what the person told me at the time, I don't think he ever had to pay it. Maybe he was spoofing but he wouldn't be the type to make something like that up.

Sam Russell

colm_mcm wrote: »

I know somebody who imported a vat qualifying car from NI 4 years ago and didn't have to pay VAT down here because the mileage went beyond the lower limit in between buying it and VRTing it, that's why I don't understand.
This is what the person told me at the time, I don't think he ever had to pay it. Maybe he was spoofing but he wouldn't be the type to make something like that up.

Ask the Revenue. They do not spoof.

It is possible that he slipped through the net, or he might have completed the forms correctly. Four years ago - was that when the VRT was transferred to the NCT crowd?

colm_mcm

NCT were doing VRT 5 years ago anyway.

Soarer

Sam Russell wrote: »

VAT has to be paid. If it is not paid there, it must be paid here (where there is anywhere).

The Revenue like to collect VAT and will check with Swansea - and since they also collect VRT, they will definitely check with Swansea if VAT has not been paid.

Rubbish.

Revenue has nothing to do with Swansea, and they've nothing to do with the VRT process.

If you show up to an NCT centre with your receipts, your logbook, and your car with over 6k kms and over 6 months old, you'll be registered and on the road in half an hour.

KCross

colm_mcm wrote: »

I know somebody who imported a vat qualifying car from NI 4 years ago and didn't have to pay VAT down here because the mileage went beyond the lower limit in between buying it and VRTing it, that's why I don't understand.
This is what the person told me at the time, I don't think he ever had to pay it. Maybe he was spoofing but he wouldn't be the type to make something like that up.

Likewise, I know someone who did it too but its just a case of "getting away with it" rather than it being legal. You take your chances basically.

The law is VAT has to be paid somewhere in the EU. I dont believe there is a loophole where you can dodge the VAT legally, just a process issue that may allow you to get away with it.

Soarer wrote: »

Revenue has nothing to do with Swansea, and they've nothing to do with the VRT process.

Huh?
Revenue absolutely do have something to do with the VRT process. Who do you think the money and documentation goes to? If they spot a zero VAT invoice for an imported car they will get involved. If you are lucky that the NCT centre and the revenue missed that important point on the invoice then good on you, but you better be ready to pay the Irish VAT if they do spot it.

I dont know if revenue communicate with Swansea.

KCross

colm_mcm wrote: »

... and didn't have to pay VAT down here because the mileage went beyond the lower limit in between buying it and VRTing it, that's why I don't understand.

Soarer wrote: »

If you show up to an NCT centre with your receipts, your logbook, and your car with over 6k kms and over 6 months old, you'll be registered and on the road in half an hour.

I'd also ad that the "over 6k kms and over 6mths old" thing isnt actually relevant here. You can buy any secondhand VAT qualifying car in the UK and bring it in VAT free as well. You are still expected to pay the VAT when you pay the VRT unless you have a VAT number and you are buying it for a business.

Henry Ford III

This is silly.

If it were possible for Joe Public to buy a VAT free car people would be flocking to do so.

Marcusm

colm_mcm wrote: »

But if the mileage goes above the limits in the meantime, what can they do?

The regs only apply to the extent that it is being imported into another EU member state and vat is to be charged there - /section 30(8) VAT Act 1994. If it's taken out of the EU for the mileage to exceed the minimum then at some stage it's imported back into the EU (when the border is crossed). If it's not out of the UK before the mileage is crossed then U.K. vAT applies although collecting it might be difficult.

Soarer

KCross wrote: »

Huh?
Revenue absolutely do have something to do with the VRT process. Who do you think the money and documentation goes to? If they spot a zero VAT invoice for an imported car they will get involved. If you are lucky that the NCT centre and the revenue missed that important point on the invoice then good on you, but you better be ready to pay the Irish VAT if they do spot it.

I dont know if revenue communicate with Swansea.

I know they have something to do with VRT. That's not what I'm saying.

What about this scenario.
I buy the car in the UK with the intention of claiming the VAT back, but don't get around to it by the time I VRT the car. My invoice shows the VAT included purchase price. Will revenue know I've subsequently claimed the VAT back?

KCross

Soarer wrote: »

What about this scenario.
I buy the car in the UK with the intention of claiming the VAT back, but don't get around to it by the time I VRT the car. My invoice shows the VAT included purchase price. Will revenue know I've subsequently claimed the VAT back?

So you pay the full inc VAT price in the UK and get an inc VAT invoice. Thats all above board.

How are you now going about claiming the VAT back from the UK?

Soarer

That's filled in at the time when you buy the car.

From what I can tell, it's the buyer claims the VAT back. It's not the seller selling it without the VAT.

I'm only playing devil's advocate btw. I can't see how revenue would find out. It'd make nearly new cars very cheap like!

Sam Russell

Soarer wrote: »

That's filled in at the time when you buy the car.

From what I can tell, it's the buyer claims the VAT back. It's not the seller selling it without the VAT.

I'm only playing devil's advocate btw. I can't see how revenue would find out. It'd make nearly new cars very cheap like!

Have you heard of Iris Oifigiúil?

That is where they post details of people who believed that the Renenue would not find out.

KCross

Soarer wrote: »

That's filled in at the time when you buy the car.

From what I can tell, it's the buyer claims the VAT back. It's not the seller selling it without the VAT.

I'm only playing devil's advocate btw. I can't see how revenue would find out. It'd make nearly new cars very cheap like!

The seller either sells it with or without VAT.

With VAT means you get an invoice with VAT included and the UK revenue have your VAT money.

Without VAT means the seller doesnt charge you VAT and you have your money but you have an invoice with zero VAT in it and hence should be copped by the VRT process and you pay Irish VAT.


If you go the with VAT route then you have to convince the UK revenue to give you the money back. How do you do that?


Hundreds of thousands of people have bought cars from the UK. If there was a valid way to simply ask UK revenue for the VAT back I think we'd all like to know about it!


EDIT: The VAT411 is not, AFAIK, a VAT reclaim form. Its a declaration that you are removing the car from the UK and hence will get a zero VAT invoice.

AH92

Just noticed this thread and was reading through,
I bought a car over in the uk 2 weeks ago for 17495 pounds which was the exact price on auto trader,

It only copped to me there that on the invoice given to me, the vat amount is listed as 0 but total amount inc vat is 17495 so is that ok ?
It's a 1 year old car with 5000 km and I am doing the same as others posted here and driving it up to 6000 km before it's vrt test.
I didn't even notice because I paid the listed price on auto trader so didn't pay attention to the vat part thinking I already paid it with the price.
I sent an email to the dealer anyway to clarify because I'm sure the vat is included in the price

Will I need to get a correct invoice from the dealer emailed to me or can I just show my other original Invoice?

Thanks.

Soarer

KCross wrote: »

The seller either sells it with or without VAT.

With VAT means you get an invoice with VAT included and the UK revenue have your VAT money.

Without VAT means the seller doesnt charge you VAT and you have your money but you have an invoice with zero VAT in it and hence should be copped by the VRT process and you pay Irish VAT.

If you go the with VAT route then you have to convince the UK revenue to give you the money back. How do you do that?

Hundreds of thousands of people have bought cars from the UK. If there was a valid way to simply ask UK revenue for the VAT back I think we'd all like to know about it!

EDIT: The VAT411 is not, AFAIK, a VAT reclaim form. Its a declaration that you are removing the car from the UK and hence will get a zero VAT invoice.

Did you even read the form?

There's a section on it where you declare if VAT was paid at the time of purchase. Pay the VAT to the dealer, and claim it back afterwards. Or maybe that means you should claim it back from the dealer there and then, and if you don't, he has to do it afterwards?

As for the valid way, the car has to be VAT qualifying. Not all cars are.

Again, I don't know. It'd be great to get it teased out.

AH92 wrote: »

Just noticed this thread and was reading through,
I bought a car over in the uk 2 weeks ago for 17495 pounds which was the exact price on auto trader,

It only copped to me there that on the invoice given to me, the vat amount is listed as 0 but total amount inc vat is 17495 so is that ok ?
It's a 1 year old car with 5000 km and I am doing the same as others posted here and driving it up to 6000 km before it's vrt test.
I didn't even notice because I paid the listed price on auto trader so didn't pay attention to the vat part thinking I already paid it with the price.
I sent an email to the dealer anyway to clarify because I'm sure the vat is included in the price

Will I need to get a correct invoice from the dealer emailed to me or can I just show my other original Invoice?

Thanks.

Well if you're to believe SAM RUSSELL, you'll be in the Irish State Gazette as a dirty tax dodger!

KCross

Soarer wrote: »

Did you even read the form?

There's a section on it where you declare if VAT was paid at the time of purchase. Pay the VAT to the dealer, and claim it back afterwards. Or maybe that means you should claim it back from the dealer there and then, and if you don't, he has to do it afterwards?

As for the valid way, the car has to be VAT qualifying. Not all cars are.

Again, I don't know. It'd be great to get it teased out.

I read it alright.
I went further than that, I read the UK revenue website on it.
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/vat-new-means-of-transport-removal-from-the-uk-to-another-member-state-of-the-ec-vat411

It says:
VAT411 is a declaration that the buyer is not liable for VAT in the UK but will pay the VAT due in the destination state.

If you are filling out that form the whole idea is that the dealer doesnt charge you VAT and so there is no claiming it back involved.


I presume you are referring to the box titled "VAT not paid at time of supply"?

What is your point there? Thats just a tick box to say you werent charged VAT which is the whole intention of the VAT411.

aeolian sky

Can someone please post the definitive answer to this thread. I'm going to London on Tuesday The 14th to buy a car. The full price is £22,000 but when the order form was emailed to me it shows the purchase price is 18,300 and vat of 3700 making up the £22,000. The advert says it is gross VAT qualifying but by the time it gets to Ireland it's will be over six months old and have done more than 6000 km so it will not be classed as a new car and therefore no VAT will be payable on on it here. Is it really possible to claim the VAT back in England and not pay it here- I don't think so. It sounds too good to be true and I'm sure you are liable to pay the VAT somewhere

extra-ordinary_

KCross wrote: »

So you pay the full inc VAT price in the UK and get an inc VAT invoice. Thats all above board.

How are you now going about claiming the VAT back from the UK?

I bought a secondhand van in UK as a private non-VAT registered individual a good few years ago and paid vat on the purchase price. Van was past the VAT liable threshold for importing in Ireland so paid no VAT here. Was able to claim the VAT I paid in the UK back once I produced a certificate of export from the DVLA.

angryInch

extra-ordinary_ wrote: »

I bought a secondhand van in UK as a private non-VAT registered individual a good few years ago and paid vat on the purchase price. Van was past the VAT liable threshold for importing in Ireland so paid no VAT here. Was able to claim the VAT I paid in the UK back once I produced a certificate of export from the DVLA.

Did you need to claim this back as a company (i.e. with a VAT number?).
If not what form did you fill out to claim it back?

pat1972!

Angry Inch /Soarer would be great to get your update on your Uk car purchases , Am speaking to a dealer in the Uk who says the car i am looking at is Vat qualifying , Its a little over a year old with 16.500 miles . They advise i have to pay the VAT and once i show its been registered and Vrt paid in Ireland i can claim back the uk vat, i am a private individual not a company so have no vat registered number . if it is legally possible to do this would be great to get your thoughts on how its done or if there are brokers that can arrange legally for private individuals , Many Thanks !!

dil999

pat1972! wrote: »

Angry Inch /Soarer would be great to get your update on your Uk car purchases , Am speaking to a dealer in the Uk who says the car i am looking at is Vat qualifying , Its a little over a year old with 16.500 miles . They advise i have to pay the VAT and once i show its been registered and Vrt paid in Ireland i can claim back the uk vat, i am a private individual not a company so have no vat registered number . if it is legally possible to do this would be great to get your thoughts on how its done or if there are brokers that can arrange legally for private individuals , Many Thanks !!

If you are a private individual you cannot legally claim VAT back from the UK. If you attempted to do it you would be VAT fraud.

Marcusm

pat1972! wrote: »

Angry Inch /Soarer would be great to get your update on your Uk car purchases , Am speaking to a dealer in the Uk who says the car i am looking at is Vat qualifying , Its a little over a year old with 16.500 miles . They advise i have to pay the VAT and once i show its been registered and Vrt paid in Ireland i can claim back the uk vat, i am a private individual not a company so have no vat registered number . if it is legally possible to do this would be great to get your thoughts on how its done or if there are brokers that can arrange legally for private individuals , Many Thanks !!

It's VAT qualifying meaning that it has only ever been owned by VAT registered businesses. With 16,500 milers, it is not a "new means of transport" and thus a private individual cannot get a refund of UK nor is (s)he liable for Irish VAT on importation.

Theoretically, a VAT qualifying vehicle in the UK is worth marginally more than one which is not VAT qualifying - this is because it is more attractive to VAT registered businesses. Make sure you don't pay for something from which you do not benefit.

extra-ordinary_

angryInch wrote: »

Did you need to claim this back as a company (i.e. with a VAT number?).
If not what form did you fill out to claim it back?

Responding now as I see this thread up again...not sure how it is now but as I said, I paid VAT as a non-VAT registered individual in UK for purchase of a several year old van. Brought it in and paid I think it was €50 VRT on commercials at the time. Got a Certificate of Permanent Export from the DVLA and submitted it to the selling company in UK where I'd bought the van and had the VAT I paid refunded to me.

pat1972!

Hi all

thanks for your reply , so in essence the only legit option and better one is just to pay price inclusive of the Uk VAT , Import to Ireland , Pay the VRT and do not attempt to reclaim the Uk Vat

Cian1110

If you use your Irish vat number to claim the vat back does that not mean the car will be owned by the business using its vat number as a company car, and if it is not a commercial,will bik will not have to be paid?

Craigbrk

Hey lads , I am just looking for any contact that can give me a definitive answer on thi matter !

I am VAT registered

The car I’m looking to purchase from the uk is VAT Q !

I’m hesitant to pay VAT on something I can’t claim back !!

Is their another way?

I’ve previously heard I am not liable to pay UK vat with current EU Vat number ?
Is their a form that can be filled out with the dealer ?
Any info would be great , cheers