replanting obligation (forestry land forever)

fepper

Was wondering is it because the Irish government is fully funding forestry here that they can enforce this rule, could they enforce the same obligation if the EU funded the forestry scheme?

timfromtang

fepper wrote: »

Was wondering is it because the Irish government is fully funding forestry here that they can enforce this rule, could they enforce the same obligation if the EU funded the forestry scheme?

It is my understanding that the obligation is contractual, and should apply to both parties to the contract. the forest owner and the govt have agreed that the land will remain forested forever. Further to this I'd suggest that the contract is likely enforceable and binding on both parties. i.e. that neither the govt nor the landowner can change the land use without the agreement of the other party.

tim
Fuisneóg Abú

fepper

Thanks Tim, but is that specifically why the Irish government funds it 100% only and not the EU so that it can make up its own rules here?

timfromtang

fepper wrote: »

Thanks Tim, but is that specifically why the Irish government funds it only and not the EU so that it can make up it own rules here?

As I am sure you can understand, I can not speak for "why" the irish govt does anything, they are their own masters, and frankly from my perspective much of what they do makes no sense to me whatever.

I'd suggest an email to the minister if you wish to know "why" he is doing something.

tim

fepper

The reason I asked 'why' is that I think that EU funding for forestry would put the Irish govt insistence on land use change and replanting out of their remit and be a EU decision,good or bad and what Ireland inc.does here is not always the right way

timfromtang

fepper wrote: »

The reason I asked 'why' is that I think that EU funding for forestry would put the Irish govt insistence on land use change and replanting out of their remit and be a EU decision,good or bad and what Ireland inc.does here is not always the right way

Hi Fepper,
This begs the question, why would you believe that the EU would do better? who is in charge of you? who can see reality from where you stand? who knows right from wrong? should right and wrong be followed or "regulations"? would you do do something you know to be wrong in your particular circumstances because regulations required it? Would it not be better if you were in charge of you? perhaps with responsibility to God or the entity of your choice? I question your faith in far away europe, when our own crowd of self glorifying liars are doing so well??

love and health to all
Fuisneóg Abú
tim

fepper

Good points there Tim,so I guess its BETTER THE DEVIL YOU KNOW' scenario

timfromtang

fepper wrote: »

Good points there Tim,so I guess its BETTER THE DEVIL YOU KNOW' scenario

aye, govern yourself or get governed, seems simple enough to me.

tim

Cattlepen

What is the story if its a silvopastoral plantation? Its always going to be grazed by stock so how can the goverment enforce replanting?

99nsr125

fepper wrote: »

Was wondering is it because the Irish government is fully funding forestry here that they can enforce this rule, could they enforce the same obligation if the EU funded the forestry scheme?

Incompetence

That's why the Irish government are the sole funders

The EU gave us ample time to come up with a plan
The Minister sat around and scratched his hole
No plans meant no EU funds, send your thanks to Fianna Fail

fepper

As the EU fund most agricultural schemes here,it was unusual that forestry wasn't included in that funding!!....thanks for that information

SILVAMAN

It's the law. Like having to tax your car or pay income tax. Been there since 1946.

SILVAMAN

fepper wrote: »

The reason I asked 'why' is that I think that EU funding for forestry would put the Irish govt insistence on land use change and replanting out of their remit and be a EU decision,good or bad and what Ireland inc.does here is not always the right way

Can you seriously compare Irish forestry to European forestry? Depending on how you look at it there's been a tradition of forestry for maybe 80 years, and much less in the private sector in this country vs. hundreds of years in Europe.
I'm always reminded of the story of how in the 1980s(early) the then forest body top brass came out in force to look at the operation of a harvester recently purchased from Sweden. Shortly after entering the afforested bog, it sank up to the cab into the ground. It had not occurred to anyone that Irish ground is not frozen in winter. My point is that we operate under totally different conditions here be it land or species or knowledge, and the EU would be incapable of running a proper forest programme here.

fepper

Its only law if grant aided by Irish govt,so its not a common law as you can still have your own forestry without the need to replant

fepper

SILVAMAN wrote: »

Can you seriously compare Irish forestry to European forestry? Depending on how you look at it there's been a tradition of forestry for maybe 80 years, and much less in the private sector in this country vs. hundreds of years in Europe.
I'm always reminded of the story of how in the 1980s(early) the then forest body top brass came out in force to look at the operation of a harvester recently purchased from Sweden. Shortly after entering the afforested bog, it sank up to the cab into the ground. It had not occurred to anyone that Irish ground is not frozen in winter. My point is that we operate under totally different conditions here be it land or species or knowledge, and the EU would be incapable of running a proper forest programme here.

When I see there on your post about our top forestry honchos out on wet forestry land to see a harvester bogged down doesn't instill confidence in our forest service even now

99nsr125

fepper wrote: »

Its only law if grant aided by Irish govt,so its not a common law as you can still have your own forestry without the need to replant

That is incorrect
Whether grant aided or not there is an obligation to replant

fepper

99nsr125 wrote: »

That is incorrect
Whether grant aided or not there is an obligation to replant

Ok so if grant aided and you paid back all grant and premium payment to forest service,does that get you out of the need to replant?

SILVAMAN

fepper wrote: »

Its only law if grant aided by Irish govt,so its not a common law as you can still have your own forestry without the need to replant

It's not. Grant aided or not you have to replant if whatever you remove has been there for 10 years or more.
Common law is judge made law. What's that got to do with forestry?

Oldtree

Grant aid means someone else's agenda and loss of freedom to me.

Sheep and dairy farmers have been grant aided into a right corner over time imo.

And what I'd like to.know is why I cannot sell the sequestered carbon credits on my woodland? Are they not mine to sell?

SILVAMAN

Oldtree wrote: »

Grant aid means someone else's agenda and loss of freedom to me.

Sheep and dairy farmers have been grant aided into a right corner over time imo.

And what I'd like to.know is why I cannot sell the sequestered carbon credits on my woodland? Are they not mine to sell?

Excellent! Apparently the state considers that it owns them.It's like saying that the state owns your livestock:D
Talk about rip-off Ireland.

Oldtree

Dont think they can claim the roots carbon under the mineral acts and the rest of the tree carbon above ground is most definitely mine. Even my worms are busy sequestering carbon for me in my carbon sink.

Minerals Development Act, 1940

3. In this Act (save where the context otherwise requires) the word “minerals” means all substances (other than the agricultural surface of the ground and other than turf or peat) in, on, or under land, whether obtainable by underground or by surface working, and includes all mines, whether they are or are not already opened or in work, and also includes the cubic space occupied or formerly occupied by minerals, and, for greater certainty but without prejudice to the generality of the foregoing, the said word includes all scheduled minerals.

Minerals Development Act, 1979

In the Act of 1940 and this Act “minerals” shall not include stone, gravel, sand or clay except to the extent that any such substance falls within the list of minerals mentioned in the Schedule to the Act of 1940.

fepper

99nsr125 wrote: »

That is incorrect
Whether grant aided or not there is an obligation to replant

I suppose if you could have the option of replanting with a type of agro forestry if you were a livestock farmer for grazing rather than a full forest if they allowed ,but still satisfying the obligations

99nsr125

fepper wrote: »

I suppose if you could have the option of replanting with a type of agro forestry if you were a livestock farmer for grazing rather than a full forest if they allowed ,but still satisfying the obligations

This is an option under some of the current schemes but
I'm still unclear if replanting in this way is allowed.

Coveney managed to fuk up the forestry legislation
even more

Being buddies with the Minister now can get you anything you want
The Minister has total discretion to do as he sees fit.
Think Denis O'Brien and Michael Lowry gouging
That's going to happen to Coilte some day

barnaman

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1946/act/13/enacted/en/print

https://www.teagasc.ie/crops/forestry/advice/timber-harvesting/felling-of-trees---legal-requirements/

worth a read EU has nothing to do with replanting its been the law for over 70 years. Even individual trees, if legally felled (most just cut them down) require replanting.

Oldtree

Interestingly the teagasc link states

A Limited Felling Licence is valid for two years and is mainly used for small fellings. This type of Licence must be used if the applicant is "requesting not to replant" or if nominating an alternative area to replant.

barnaman

yeah but that request not to replant is I assume only applicable where site clearance for house etc

timfromtang

fepper wrote: »

When I see there on your post about our top forestry honchos out on wet forestry land to see a harvester bogged down doesn't instill confidence in our forest service even now

this is why it is important to govern yourself in terms of forestry here,,,, educate yourself, learn, observe, plant, walk, tend, prune, eat blackberries, thin, harvest, enjoy, but most important, YOU are in charge of the land, not some lackey in an office far away from which he cannot see a tree.

However I will say this, In my experience of dealing with the forest service over the last 20 years, through hard times and good (hard times at the moment with chalara) They have been helpful and willing to listen, flexible and willing to learn, I note the forest service is staffed by committed and knowledgeable individuals, in short i have had only support and help from that quarter.

Ireland is already punching well above its weight in international terms when it comes to forest research also. And our land is proving to be amongst the BEST IN THE WORLD for growing trees in a temperate climate. Rain lovely rain, fall on me and my tree. Water availability is one of the limiters of tree growth in temperate forests, we do not suffer in this regard here on our lovely green island.

Any problems folk experience are more likely to stem from politicians acting in ignorance, than from the forest service in my humble opinion.

Lastly with confidence in yourself, in your own observations and knowledge, you are well placed to tackle any incompetence you may experience from other quarters.

Fuisneóg Abú
tim

lazybones32

Oldtree wrote: »

And what I'd like to.know is why I cannot sell the sequestered carbon credits on my woodland? Are they not mine to sell?

I was looking into this some years ago and I think it's a worldwide-thing where individuals cannot enter this market; only companies. It stinks of being a big scam.

fepper

barnaman wrote: »

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1946/act/13/enacted/en/print

https://www.teagasc.ie/crops/forestry/advice/timber-harvesting/felling-of-trees---legal-requirements/

worth a read EU has nothing to do with replanting its been the law for over 70 years. Even individual trees, if legally felled (most just cut them down) require replanting.

. So the Irish laws on tree replanting are incompatible with EU law as there is not a EU obligation to replant trees in its countries if funded by EU forestry grant

SILVAMAN

fepper wrote: »

. So the Irish laws on tree replanting are incompatible with EU law as there is not a EU obligation to replant trees in its countries if funded by EU forestry grant

but the forest grant system here is I believe 100% state funded now

fepper

SILVAMAN wrote: »

but the forest grant system here is I believe 100% state funded now

Wouldn't it be better financially for the Irish exchequer if the EU funded it so and let the forest service here implement it so it would be practically the same scheme as its now as they already do with the other EU funded schemes