Charged €95 for purchase of drill bit to complete a job, sound fishy?

mrcheez

As part of my long-running saga of problems with recent jobs I had done, I've got another gem: the invoice has arrived for those jobs.

One of the jobs I got done was to replace a kitchen sink, which they charged €90 for. Fair enough I guess.

One problem with the stainless-steel sink was that it didn't come with a pre-drilled tap hole, so it required the purchase of a Silverline step-drill-bit, and the hole was drilled on a separate occasion. https://www.amazon.co.uk/Silverline-151206-Titanium-Coated-Step-Drill/dp/B001C85KC2

OK I was expecting they might add a small top-up to the cost of the installation as a result, but they've charged €95 for "drilling hole in kitchen sink (drill bit had to be purchased)"

Does this sound right??

Importantly, the sink installation isn't great since one side is slightly bent up at the edge and isn't flush with the shelf leaving a 5mm gap that I have to fill with sealant to prevent water getting under the sink.
Not really a long-term solution as the sealant will wear down over time as I'm wiping down the area.

I would have thought they would sand down the shelf to ensure a good flat fit.

So in summary:

€90 ex VAT for installing sink (which is left rough on the edges)
€95 ex VAT for drilling hole in sink

TOTAL: €185 (€210 inc VAT)

The sink itself cost €187 inc VAT


My thinking is to negotiate this down somewhat, thoughts? Thanks

I love Sean nos

Who kept the drill bit after the job was done?

mrcheez

They did

I love Sean nos

mrcheez wrote: »

They did

Then I'd definitely be asking for the cost of the drill bit to be removed from the invoice.

finbarrk

But the drill bit should be yours.

Armchair Andy

First I've heard of a tradesman charging for his tools. 95 euro drill bit paid for in one foul swoop. Even if it is new, he'll get to use it again, or until he needs a new one for his next job.;-)

mrcheez

So if I get the €20 drill bit off them, are the prices acceptable, or should I negotiate based on the untidy sink finish?

Is it fairly normal for a kitchen sink to be left slightly uneven? My thinking is no, but perhaps €90 is a cheap price for installing a sink, so might be ok?

Armchair Andy

Can you post up a picture of installed sink? Not a plumber here just for others' reference.

mrcheez

I'm home later on tonight, will try to post it then

mrcheez

As an example, the edge of the sink moves up and down when I push on it. Is that normal ?

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elastico

mrcheez wrote: »

As part of my long-running saga of problems with recent jobs I had done, I've got another gem: the invoice has arrived for those jobs.

One of the jobs I got done was to replace a kitchen sink, which they charged €90 for. Fair enough I guess.

One problem with the stainless-steel sink was that it didn't come with a pre-drilled tap hole, so it required the purchase of a Silverline step-drill-bit, and the hole was drilled on a separate occasion. https://www.amazon.co.uk/Silverline-151206-Titanium-Coated-Step-Drill/dp/B001C85KC2

OK I was expecting they might add a small top-up to the cost of the installation as a result, but they've charged €95 for "drilling hole in kitchen sink (drill bit had to be purchased)"

Does this sound right??

Importantly, the sink installation isn't great since one side is slightly bent up at the edge and isn't flush with the shelf leaving a 5mm gap that I have to fill with sealant to prevent water getting under the sink.
Not really a long-term solution as the sealant will wear down over time as I'm wiping down the area.

I would have thought they would sand down the shelf to ensure a good flat fit.

So in summary:

€90 ex VAT for installing sink (which is left rough on the edges)
€95 ex VAT for drilling hole in sink

TOTAL: €185 (€210 inc VAT)

The sink itself cost €187 inc VAT


My thinking is to negotiate this down somewhat, thoughts? Thanks

I think the "separate occasion" is the reason for the charge to drill the hole. Sounds like they had to come and incur the same expense of travel time getting there and back, loading unloading whatever other tools are required etc.

However in my opinion they should have either had the bit needed or went to the nearest hardware outlet, bought the bit and kept it with their tools for the next time.

Armchair Andy

mrcheez wrote:

As an example, the edge of the sink moves up and down when I push on it. Is that normal ?

Wouldn't say so at all. Sounds like it was strained or wedged into position. Did he cut the countertop? (My guess is its mounted in a countertop)

I love Sean nos

mrcheez wrote: »

So if I get the €20 drill bit off them, are the prices acceptable, or should I negotiate based on the untidy sink finish?

Is it fairly normal for a kitchen sink to be left slightly uneven? My thinking is no, but perhaps €90 is a cheap price for installing a sink, so might be ok?

I can't make a statement on the price, but I'd definitely be bringing him back if unhappy with any part of the job done.

Immediately too, before handing over any money. You lose almost all of your room to negotiate remedial work once he has the money.

Ash.J.Williams

You say he charged you for the bit. Yet the costs you showed us say he charged for the drilling..... Also I'd focus more on ensuring the sink is fitted properly as it looks like it's not.

Sleeper12

mrcheez wrote:

So if I get the €20 drill bit off them, are the prices acceptable, or should I negotiate based on the untidy sink finish?

It looks like he didn't charge you for the bit. It says 95 to drill the hole in your opening comment. If there is no mention of the drill bit on the invoice then he's not charging for it.

mrcheez wrote:

Is it fairly normal for a kitchen sink to be left slightly uneven? My thinking is no, but perhaps €90 is a cheap price for installing a sink, so might be ok?

I'm not sure how a factory made sink can be uneven. Photo would be great. Did he do woodwork around the sink or something?
Most plumbers charge 70 EURO plus vat just to change the taps on the sink. Fitting a new sink means messing with the trap & possibly altering the pipework underneath.
I think he undercharged for fitting the sink and possibly overcharged for drilling the hole.
It's hard remembering everything when jobs like this are being done but it's always best to get a price upfront. I know you did at the start but when he told you that the hole needed drilling and he had to go buy a bit it would be a good time to ask for a rough idea of what the extra cost is.
Do you know what, if he had to leave the job and go buy the bit he'd be charging for his time in suppliers. Maybe the overall price was OK
How many hours did the whole thing take start to finish inc time buying the bit?

mrcheez

Armchair Andy wrote: »

Wouldn't say so at all. Sounds like it was strained or wedged into position. Did he cut the countertop? (My guess is its mounted in a countertop)

Yep countertop mount. It wasn't cut as the dimensions of the sink were same as the one it replaced, but perhaps the way it was fitted with the clips or whatever meant it is slightly up on one side.

I would have thought they would have filed down the 2mm or whatever off the countertop to ensure it fitted better.

Ash.J.Williams wrote: »

You say he charged you for the bit. Yet the costs you showed us say he charged for the drilling..... Also I'd focus more on ensuring the sink is fitted properly as it looks like it's not.

The entry in the invoice says that they are charging for the purchase of a drill bit and the action of drilling the hole so seems to be a charge for the combination of both actions.

mrcheez

Sleeper12 wrote: »

I think he undercharged for fitting the sink and possibly overcharged for drilling the hole.

Good to know that the prices don't seem excessive.

Sleeper12 wrote: »

I know you did at the start but when he told you that the hole needed drilling and he had to go buy a bit it would be a good time to ask for a rough idea of what the extra cost is.

I wasn't there when this was going on so couldn't discuss anything about pricing and as the foreman repeatedly told me when I asked him "I don't know anything about pricing, that's *insert bosses name*'s job"

I might ask for €30 off or something just to future-proof the time I'll have to spend reapplying sealant to the gap in coming years.

Sleeper12

mrcheez wrote:

The entry in the invoice says that they are charging for the purchase of a drill bit and the action of drilling the hole so seems to be a charge for the combination of both actions.

Ask for your bit to be returned if this makes you feel better & get him to fit the sink properly. If this is done pay him in full. If he can't make the job good I wouldn't be paying a penny. As others have said I'd be more concerned about the quality of work.
Sink is supposed to be gripped tight by the clips underneath. There should be no movement in the sink and don't let him fob you off with silicone holding it together

mrcheez

Sleeper12 wrote: »

Ask for your bit to be returned if this makes you feel better & get him to fit the sink properly. If this is done pay him in full. If he can't make the job good I wouldn't be paying a penny. As others have said I'd be more concerned about the quality of work.
Sink is supposed to be gripped tight by the clips underneath. There should be no movement in the sink and don't let him fob you off with silicone holding it together

When the sink was fitted, one side was weighed down so that it "glued" to the countertop (and this is the side with gaps that leak unless sealant is used).

I was there to witness that part.

Are you saying that's unusual and it should just have been held in place firmly with clips alone?

Armchair Andy

IMO I wouldn't do that. Get him to rectify it at no extra expense to you ( might be just a badly positioned clip or new sink needed).
I wouldn't haggle the drilling and if the sink was sorted I wouldn't say anything about your drill bit either;-)

Sleeper12

mrcheez wrote:

I wasn't there when this was going on so couldn't discuss anything about pricing and as the foreman repeatedly told me when I asked him "I don't know anything about pricing, that's *insert bosses name*'s job"

You mention a foreman. Plumbers don't have a foreman. In a house build or extension maybe but a job like this there should be no foreman Now I'm thinking that a handyman has done the job.

mrcheez

Sleeper12 wrote: »

You mention a foreman. Plumbers don't have a foreman. In a house build or extension maybe but a job like this there should be no foreman Now I'm thinking that a handyman has done the job.

I was getting work done in the house that included a few plumbing jobs (the plumbers were subcontracted by the main company doing the work), so the foreman acted as the go-between for me and the various contractors (and was a handyman himself doing other jobs in the house)

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Sleeper12

mrcheez wrote:

Are you saying that's unusual and it should just have been held in place firmly with clips alone?

You have the counter top with a hole for the sink. The sink has foam under it and clips. You can put a tiny bead of silicone on the counter top to seal it but the foam is all that's needed really. The clips are all that's needed to hold the sink firmly in place. That's it.
If you have gaps it's fit wrong or the hole is too big. There definitely shouldn't be movement or leaks at all. The counter top edge should be under the lip of the sink

daheff

Can I ask you -did you get a quote for the job before the fitter started? If you did, was it in line with the invoice?


Sounds to me like the fitter doesn't usually do this....or he would have already had a drill bit.

but in any case charging you extra for him to buy the bit isn't on. Thats his cost. Would you have paid him diesel for having to call out to you? Or extra labour if he had an apprentice learning on the job?

mrcheez

It seems to me that the counter hole is perhaps 2mm too small and sink is too snug so that it had to be forced in and glued down.

It seems ok after lots of sealant used although doesn't look too even.

I'm pretty hesitant about getting it all taken out and refitted as im sick of getting work done at this stage so perhaps either a major discount or not pay for the job, or maybe they exclude the drilling charge.

Sleeper12

mrcheez wrote:

It seems ok after lots of sealant used although doesn't look too even.

Can you post photos

mrcheez

Sleeper12 wrote: »

Can you post photos

Will try to remember to post em tonight, cheers

mrcheez

daheff wrote: »

Can I ask you -did you get a quote for the job before the fitter started? If you did, was it in line with the invoice?


Sounds to me like the fitter doesn't usually do this....or he would have already had a drill bit.

but in any case charging you extra for him to buy the bit isn't on. Thats his cost. Would you have paid him diesel for having to call out to you? Or extra labour if he had an apprentice learning on the job?

I got a quote for €90 to fit the sink (and I had mentioned to him about the fact a hole needed to be drilled for the tap, but that wasn't communicated to the plumber).

The plumber claimed that in 25 years he had never seen a sink without a pre-drilled tap hole (admittedly I didn't know that was unusual or I would have avoided ordering the Blanco sink from the UK supplier).

He left the fitting to his apprentice while he did other work on the house. The work the head plumber did was perfect. The work his apprentice did not so much (numerous issues including the kitchen sink issue...but I don't want to list them here as it will detract from the topic).

When it came to drilling the hole, they tried circular drill bits which failed, so I googled "how to drill hole in stainless steel sink" and found out about the stepped drill bit and told them that's what they needed. And voila it was (they had gone through 3 circular drill bits by this stage).

Armchair Andy

Every trade apprentice has to learn but leaving him at an undrilled stainless steel sink by himself was probably a bit too ambitious.

mrcheez

Out of curiosity, can you buy sinks in Ireland without pre-drilled holes for taps?

It must be a thing with the UK as the supplier assured me it was perfectly normal for the plumber to drill the hole.

Sleeper12

Armchair Andy wrote:

Every trade apprentice has to learn but leaving him at an undrilled stainless steel sink by himself was probably a bit too ambitious.

Agree and the plumber should also inspect all the work the apprentice does before he signs off on it. It's the plumbers reputation at stake not the apprentice

gctest50

mrcheez wrote: »

Out of curiosity, can you buy sinks in Ireland without pre-drilled holes for taps?

It must be a thing with the UK as the supplier assured me it was perfectly normal for the plumber to drill the hole.

He just had the wrong kind of hole saw

You need a carbide tipped one or something

TPM

in fairness it wouldnt be normal to have to drill the hole for a tap in a stainless steel sink and as such it would be normal to class it as an extra in relation to fitting the sink.
It wouldnt be the simplest of tasks and could easily result in an unusable sink if it went wrong, stainless is hard to drill and has the potential to wear out drill bits quickly, taking that into account and if it required a return visit €95 wouldnt be over the top.

it wouldnt be the first time a tradesman included the purchase of small tools or tools they are unlikely to use again in the price of a job they just dont highlight it on the invoice.

I would agree with the general opinion dont get hung up on paying for the drill bit but make sure to get the job finished correctly and to a good standard

the_pen_turner

i have charged for one off tools for jobs. and will do again. mostly bits, blades, etc
it is simply a consumable on that job

it is not fair to expect the tradesman to swallow the cost of a special bit they needed for your job.

if its something they should have anyway then that is different .

Jack the Stripper

No shortage of special tools here.

FanadMan

Jack the Stripper wrote: »

No shortage of special tools here.

?

Jack the Stripper

FanadMan wrote: »

?

TPM

the_pen_turner wrote: »

i have charged for one off tools for jobs. and will do again. mostly bits, blades, etc
it is simply a consumable on that job

it is not fair to expect the tradesman to swallow the cost of a special bit they needed for your job.

if its something they should have anyway then that is different .

Exactly
Imo it's fair to charge for something like a drill bit if it is unlikely to be used again or be worn out after the job.
Charging for a new dewalt or hilti cordless drill would be a slightly different matter :P

daheff

mrcheez wrote: »

I got a quote for €90 to fit the sink (and I had mentioned to him about the fact a hole needed to be drilled for the tap, but that wasn't communicated to the plumber).

The plumber claimed that in 25 years he had never seen a sink without a pre-drilled tap hole (admittedly I didn't know that was unusual or I would have avoided ordering the Blanco sink from the UK supplier).

So you got quoted 90 e for the job. then thats what you pay him. Not your fault about the miscommunication as you mentioned it at the outset and got a quote based on that.

Wouldnt say that its unusual for sinks not to be pre-drilled -not common certainly, but not unusual. Try buying a composite sink. They dont come predrilled.

mrcheez wrote: »

He left the fitting to his apprentice while he did other work on the house. The work the head plumber did was perfect. The work his apprentice did not so much (numerous issues including the kitchen sink issue...but I don't want to list them here as it will detract from the topic).
.

If his apprentice did the work, ask him to take a look at it. Tell him you aren't happy with it. you gotta live with this...and i reckon it'll bug you everytime you look at it.

gctest50

the_pen_turner wrote: »

.......it is not fair to expect the tradesman to swallow the cost of a special bit they needed for your job. .......

You'd get a lot more than one hole out of a holesaw

Sleeper12

daheff wrote:

So you got quoted 90 e for the job. then thats what you pay him. Not your fault about the miscommunication as you mentioned it at the outset and got a quote based on that.

Definitely wrong here. Drilling the hole is extra work & he's entitled to be paid for this. It's already been established that it is a reasonable price for the overall job so long as the job is done right

the_pen_turner

gctest50 wrote: »

You'd get a lot more than one hole out of a holesaw

not always
stainless is a pain to drill.


what relevance is it , that it drills more holes . it is still required for your job and yours only.

mrcheez

I got some pics this morn, will post em up at lunchtime. Will be interested to know what people think of the job (or why it was done the way it was).

I asked the plumber why a few weeks later and he couldn't recall.. sheesh

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mrcheez

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Nope, it's designed to be drilled. I didn't have a choice as I needed a sink with a very specific width to match the old one, and also had to have a single drop.

Took me weeks to find the one I wanted.

*also note, I didn't know it didn't have a hole until I received it. The pic from the supplier was misleading, and when I asked them about it they said "the hole is normally drilled by your fitter"

I naturally assumed then it was a normal thing.

Jack the Stripper

Maybe they had Dermot Bannon designing it.

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mrcheez

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Probably to minimise the amount of work involved in installing it?

Also I didn't want a wider sink.

mrcheez

mrcheez wrote: »

I got some pics this morn, will post em up at lunchtime. Will be interested to know what people think of the job (or why it was done the way it was).

I asked the plumber why a few weeks later and he couldn't recall.. sheesh

So these pics shows how the glued side appears to be jutted up somewhat compared to the clipped edge:





I can see no clips were used on this side... here's a pic from the underside, does it look like clips would not be possible to use here?



and here are the clips they didn't use




So thoughts on this job?

(I also forgot to mention they scratched the sink trying to remove sealant... but maybe that's unavoidable)