recorded conversation

Lorne Malvo

Hi all...
I was wondering if I can ask for some advise?
I was party to a conversation with a landlord that I recorded with an external device, which contains evidence that fraud may have being committed against me.
Can this be used as evidence or is it illegal evidence?
Thanks.

me_irl

If the landlord wasn't aware of being recorded, it may be inadmissible.

It might be wise to transcribe the conversation and use this instead.

Lorne Malvo

me_irl wrote: »

If the landlord wasn't aware of being recorded, it may be inadmissible.

It might be wise to transcribe the conversation and use this instead.

Thanks.

But I am present in the recording...

me_irl

Lorne Malvo wrote: »

Thanks.

But I am present in the recording...

Doesn't matter.

Was the landlord aware that he/she was being recorded at the time?

Found this (it pertains to phone calls) : http://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/q-a-what-are-the-legal-implications-1.1740070

And a thread on boards that might be useful : http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055707453

Lorne Malvo

me_irl wrote: »

Doesn't matter.

Was the landlord aware that he/she was being recorded at the time?

No, not aware.

what brings you to the 'maybe inadmissible' conclusion?

surely its a yes or no situation?

Thanks.

davo10

As a matter of interest, how is fraud "committed against" you in a tenancy situation? Presumably you are paying rent for the accommodation you are in.

me_irl

Lorne Malvo wrote: »

No, not aware.

what brings you to the 'maybe inadmissible' conclusion?

surely its a yes or no situation?

Thanks.

Because I'm not legally trained to give you a definite answer and don't want to inadvertently give you false hope.

Personally it's inadmissible because the landlord wasn't aware or asked prior to be recorded and this is a breach of privacy.

Lorne Malvo

me_irl wrote: »

Because I'm not legally trained to give you a definite answer and don't want to inadvertently give you false hope.

Personally it's inadmissible because the landlord wasn't aware or asked prior to be recorded and this is a breach of privacy.

No worries, thanks

Samuel T. Cogley

Lorne Malvo wrote: »

surely its a yes or no situation?

Thanks.

There are rarely yes and no situations otherwise we wouldn't need lawyers or Judges. A Quasi-judicial panel like the RTB may very well be happy to listen to a single party consent recording, the EAT have done it. They may not, so it's far from a yes or no answer I'm afraid.

Phone them and ask for advice if that's the relevant body for dispute resolution.

Lmklad

It is my understanding that once one party is aware the conversation is being recorded there isn't a issue. However if you suspect fraud may have occurred then the recording itself will allow Gardai the level of "suspicion" required to investigate. The original recording is required and you will be required to give in a statement that it is the unaltered original recording. A transcript is useless as in itself is not proof or evidence of wrong doing unless both parties witness it.

Brasros

Lorne Malvo wrote:

Hi all... I was wondering if I can ask for some advise? I was party to a conversation with a landlord that I recorded with an external device, which contains evidence that fraud may have being committed against me. Can this be used as evidence or is it illegal evidence? Thanks.

It is legal to record a conversation you have with someone without the other person's knowledge because you are part of that conversation.

me_irl

Brasros wrote: »

It is legal to record a conversation you have with someone without the other person's knowledge because you are part of that conversation.

Even if it's going to be held against them as evidence?

Do you have a source for this?

billie1b

A recording between two people where one party is involved in the conversation/recording is admissable. If you are a 3rd party listening in/recording a conversation than the other 2 parties need to be informed that they are being monitored/recorded or it becomes inadmissable.

*thats my understanding of it.

me_irl

From here : http://www.dolores-maxwell.com/audio_recording_comments.php

Is it legal to covertly record private conversations without prior consent in Ireland? Yes it is, and no it isn't. If a person or any other entity records a conversation or telephone call and they are not a party to that conversation it is illegal. The only exception to this is when the third party is authorised by the government and obtains a legal and valid warrant. As say, during an investigation by the Gardai.

Lmklad

Substitute the word recording for CCTV. It works on the same principle. All evidence of a crime must be gathered and preserved in its original form. A judge will ultimately make the call on admissibility.

Brasros

billie1b wrote:

A recording between two people where one party is involved in the conversation/recording is admissable. If you are a 3rd party listening in/recording a conversation than the other 2 parties need to be informed that they are being monitored/recorded or it becomes inadmissable.

Correct

me_irl

Lmklad wrote: »

Substitute the word recording for CCTV. It works on the same principle. All evidence of a crime must be gathered and preserved in its original form. A judge will ultimately make the call on admissibility.

Yes, but there are always signs up warning people that you are being recorded / CCTV in operation.





Wait, that's your point isn't it?

Sorry!

davo10

In a tenant - landlord agreement, what "fraud" was perpetrated against you? Was the accomadation not provided?

Samuel T. Cogley

Is there an echo in here, or is that just the recording?

Lorne Malvo

davo10 wrote: »

In a tenant - landlord agreement, what "fraud" was perpetrated against you? Was the accomadation not provided?

I left a deposit to a landlord without getting a receipt. (I know, incredibility stupid)
I have since found out that he is of 'shady' character.

I have the contract and an audio of the meeting including the handover and counting of the deposit.

Samuel T. Cogley

Lorne Malvo wrote: »

I left a deposit to a landlord without getting a receipt. (I know, incredibility stupid)
I have since found out that he is of 'shady' character.

I have the contract and an audio of the meeting including the handover and counting of the deposit.

You won't need the audio recording, you'll both be cross examined - if it gets that far - the RTB will make a determination on who is more believable under the circumstances. Make a complaint to the RTB and let them handle it for you.

me_irl

+1 RTB is the way to go.

newacc2015

me_irl wrote: »

+1 RTB is the way to go.

It is, but my suggestion OP would be to tell the Landlord you are going to go the RTB if he refuses to return the deposit. He will be fined 3/4 times the amount of the deposit and he will be listed on the RTB as committing a crime.

I would suggest try resolve it outside of the RTB as they can take an age to address something like this.

How much is the deposit? Unless it about €300, the RTB might not take it on as they have limited means

luketitz

Lorne Malvo wrote: »

Hi all...
I was wondering if I can ask for some advise?
I was party to a conversation with a landlord that I recorded with an external device, which contains evidence that fraud may have being committed against me.
Can this be used as evidence or is it illegal evidence?
Thanks.

Glad you didn't record it with an internal device. Producing it in court could prove problematic

Grolschevik

luketitz wrote:

Glad you didn't record it with an internal device. Producing it in court could prove problematic

"No, no, that's not a microphone. I'm just a bit, eh... excited..."

Lorne Malvo

newacc2015 wrote: »

It is, but my suggestion OP would be to tell the Landlord you are going to go the RTB if he refuses to return the deposit. He will be fined 3/4 times the amount of the deposit and he will be listed on the RTB as committing a crime.

I would suggest try resolve it outside of the RTB as they can take an age to address something like this.

How much is the deposit? Unless it about €300, the RTB might not take it on as they have limited means

700 euro deposit.

My concern after doing some research, is, the bank may own the property.

Samuel T. Cogley

Lorne Malvo wrote: »

700 euro deposit.

My concern after doing some research, is, the bank may own the property.

LL is still liable for the deposit if the property is in receivership. Getting it on the other hand...

Worth a punt for €35 or whatever the fee is.

GM228

As already stated several times in the thread one party consent is all that is required to be legal.

me_irl wrote: »

Personally it's inadmissible because the landlord wasn't aware or asked prior to be recorded and this is a breach of privacy.

Here is a recent discussion on the matter which addresses the legality question and your points of being admissibe evidence and the issue of breach of privacy.

http://touch.boards.ie/thread/2057657062/1

There is a link in there to the criminal case in Longford where a recording was used as evidence which was recorded by the plaintiff on the defendents private land without their consent and there was no issues with it.

4ensic15

Sgt Maurice McCabe recorded a conversation he had with two more senior members of the force without their knowledge. When it was put to him that he had admitted to the officers that he had made the complaints maliciously he produced a tape recording of the conversation and gave it to the O Higgins tribunal. Judge O Higgins accepted the recording and had it transcribed.
No question whatever was raised that such a recording was illegal.

Muahahaha

The RTB do accept recordings, I have personal experience of this. They insist it is in MP3 format and not more than 5MB file size, they allow you to split files if necessary.

Raisins

No speculation is really necessary I think in fairness the answer is clear. Recording a conversation in which you are a party is not illegal, it is not a breach of any statutory provision or the constitution. You can't be guilty of intercepting your own telephone conversation.

Under S.98 or the postal and telecommunications services act 1983 (as amended by the 93' Interception Act) an interception occurs where there is no agreement by either party in a conversation to a recording...i.e it only requires the agreement of one of the parties to a conversation to that recording. Don't forget Interception is not limited to recording it also includes listening. It would be an absurdity to be guilty of an offence in listening to a call you receive with or without express consent. In addition recording must be in the course of transmission. Arguably that excludes a recording device at the point of departure of the signal or its terminus. The uk case law on the RIPA Act 2000 is useful on that point but it's not relevant to this question, where the op is a party to the call anyway.

Also the constitutional cases like cogley, kennedy etc are not relevant at all. Those cases considered interceptions. I've never seen a case where anyone successfully asserted a constitutional right to privacy against a party to a telephone call. The privacy is between the caller and recipient.

The reason for the automated message with telecommunications operators is completely different. That is based on data protection under the data protection acts and regs. Regulation 5 of the 2011 e-privacy regulations ensures the confidentiality of communications between persons other than users, who are defined as natural persons. The telecommunications company are not a user so they need your consent to record and store the call for a justifiable purpose and only keep the recording as kind as they need it.

hullaballoo

Raisins wrote: »

No speculation is really necessary...

Excellent post. Thank you for that.