Net Nitrate/Can

kay 9

Excuse my ignorance but I ordered "can" and they delivered "net nitrate". Are they the same?
Both are 27% nitrogen but the net nitrate seems to be split into two groups.
Thanks...

kay 9

From what I can gather they're the same but the composition of the net nitrate is listed in two groups that I can't think off the top of my head right now and the can is calcium ammonium nitrate only.

Keepgrowing

Same


Calcium
Ammonia
Nitrate

GERMAN ROCKS

Ya there are the same I'm fairly sure. I think that company are called IFI and give all there products a certain name

e.g.they call Urea -topper, 27 2.5 5 is called pasture sward and 24 2.5 10 is called cut sward and obviously they call can net nitrate.

One of the brands I rather to get tbh. I think that Grasslands stuff is pure muck and always fairly dusty

pedigree 6

kay 9 wrote: »

Excuse my ignorance but I ordered "can" and they delivered "net nitrate". Are they the same?
Both are 27% nitrogen but the net nitrate seems to be split into two groups.
Thanks...

The "Net Nitrate" is made up of equal parts of Nitrate Nitrogen and Ammoniacal Nitrogen of 13.5% with an added ingredient of Calcium.

It has to be of equal proportions of each as Nitrate has a negative charge and Ammoniacal Nitrogen has a positive charge.
Where as Urea has a neutral charge.

What's these things with the charges?
When roots take up charged molecules, such as ammonium or nitrate, they typically release an identically charged molecule to maintain a balanced pH inside the plant cells. Because nitrogen can be supplied as a positively or negatively charged form, the root substrate pH can be altered.

Basically the two different forms of nitrogen keep the root/soil pH balanced.
Ying and Yang as it were.

But don't take my word for it here's a link from Cornell University.:p

http://www.greenhouse.cornell.edu/crops/factsheets/nitrogen_form.pdf

kay 9

Thanks. Appreciate the responses..

kay 9

GERMAN ROCKS wrote: »

Ya there are the same I'm fairly sure. I think that company are called IFI and give all there products a certain name

e.g.they call Urea -topper, 27 2.5 5 is called pasture sward and 24 2.5 10 is called cut sward and obviously they call can net nitrate.

One of the brands I rather to get tbh. I think that Grasslands stuff is pure muck and always fairly dusty

Find yara good and decent bags too. Got urea from them earlier and the little 37.5 kg bags are handy

kay 9

pedigree 6 wrote: »

The "Net Nitrate" is made up of equal parts of Nitrate Nitrogen and Ammoniacal Nitrogen of 13.5% with an added ingredient of Calcium.

It has to be of equal proportions of each as Nitrate has a negative charge and Ammoniacal Nitrogen has a positive charge.
Where as Urea has a neutral charge.

What's these things with the charges?
When roots take up charged molecules, such as ammonium or nitrate, they typically release an identically charged molecule to maintain a balanced pH inside the plant cells. Because nitrogen can be supplied as a positively or negatively charged form, the root substrate pH can be altered.

Basically the two different forms of nitrogen keep the root/soil pH balanced.
Ying and Yang as it were.

But don't take my word for it here's a link from Cornell University.:p

http://www.greenhouse.cornell.edu/crops/factsheets/nitrogen_form.pdf

Thanks pedigree, interesting to say the least.

Green farmer

kay 9 wrote: »

Got urea from them earlier and the little 37.5 kg bags are handy

How are they still getting away with the 50kg bags with health and safely ? I use them but hate them

kay 9

Green farmer wrote: »

How are they still getting away with the 50kg bags with health and safely ? I use them but hate them

I don't mind them too much tbh as I'm a bit of a brute anyway but the smaller bags no doubt make life a bit easier especially if you have a high bin on the spreader. Only thing I thought of with the 37.5 kg bags, how do they make up a ton. Do they give the extra, I doubt it very much strange figure imo.

pedigree 6

kay 9 wrote: »

I don't mind them too much tbh as I'm a bit of a brute anyway but the smaller bags no doubt make life a bit easier especially if you have a high bin on the spreader. Only thing I thought of with the 37.5 kg bags, how do they make up a ton. Do they give the extra, I doubt it very much strange figure imo.

You don't get 2ton of Urea on a pallet anymore.
The big bags are 375kgs and 4 bags makes a ton and a half.
So I presume it's the same with the smallies.

I was spreading the second fert round on grazed ground today and a 50kg bag to the acre of CAN using a big bag 500kgs would cover 10 acres.
With the urea today spreading three quarters of a 50kg bag (even though now there's no such thing anymore) /acre the 375kg bag covers 10 acres.

A little bit of a pain in the ass with 375kg bags.:cool:

Username John

37.5kg bags?

Are the 50kg bags gone now?

I got some in the creamery last week, but am sure they have been there since last year...

pedigree 6

Username John wrote: »

37.5kg bags?

Are the 50kg bags gone now?

I got some in the creamery last week, but am sure they have been there since last year...

No it's just Urea.

Green farmer

Cannt understand why they got rid of the 50kg cement bags cause of lads backs, but nothing said about the farming sector with a even higher accident rate. I'd love 25kg bags at the same price as the 50kg ones.

Username John

Green farmer wrote: »

Cannt understand why they got rid of the 50kg cement bags cause of lads backs, but nothing said about the farming sector with a even higher accident rate. I'd love 25kg bags at the same price as the 50kg ones.

Maybe this is a bit cynical...

But a lad putting his back out at work in the construction sector means possible insurance claim, their employer being out of pocket with sick days and the like...

A farmer putting his back out affects no one but the farmer themselves...

In short - no one cares Green.

And I suspect if you went to the IFA, they'd tell you use big bags and move with the times and not be holding the Agri industry back with your 50kg bags...

charolais0153

Green farmer wrote: »

Cannt understand why they got rid of the 50kg cement bags cause of lads backs, but nothing said about the farming sector with a even higher accident rate. I'd love 25kg bags at the same price as the 50kg ones.

IMO bags of manure are right beside the spreader so you give a lift up or pull them down off a trailer whereas cement might have to be brought into a mixer several meters away. Also insurance

Green farmer

It's the ones that you've to bend down for are the probem. A dead lift from the ground. I might only use 3- 4 bags at a time ( a light dusting between each grazing ) so big bags aren't an option. Like also of small lads out there. Know plenty of farm lads in their late 40's / early 50's who backs are f**ked, over pulling and dragging.

pedigree 6

Green farmer wrote: »

It's the ones that you've to bend down for are the probem. A dead lift from the ground. I might only use 3- 4 bags at a time ( a light dusting between each grazing ) so big bags aren't an option. Like also of small lads out there. Know plenty of farm lads in their late 40's / early 50's who backs are f**ked, over pulling and dragging.

Why don't you use a big bag and open it at the top and use a bucket.
Then tie up the bag after you bucket out the 3 or 4 small bags.
You can have the bucket as big or small as you like.

Green farmer

pedigree 6 wrote: »

Why don't you use a big bag and open it at the top and use a bucket.
Then tie up the bag after you bucket out the 3 or 4 small bags.
You can have the bucket as big or small as you like.

The big bags aren't practical as no tractor loader to move them around the farm. They'd have to sit whenever the Lorry dropped them. Anyway if they made them in 25kg bags, they'd be no issues. Think I read somewhere 25kg is the accepted safe lifting weight for men.

Username John

pedigree 6 wrote: »

Why don't you use a big bag and open it at the top and use a bucket.
Then tie up the bag after you bucket out the 3 or 4 small bags.
You can have the bucket as big or small as you like.

You could - but you'd need the creamery to put the big bag exactly where you want it in the shed... and chances are they wouldn't, and you have no way of moving it... so you have to get the neighbour to move it with his loader... and you're left cursing the big bag and why didn't you just get the small bags you could leave outside instead

I did it before with ration, and without the ability to move the bag yourself, it always seems to be in the way at some time or another

pedigree 6

This is going way off thread although it is a part i suppose.
Would there be many farmers with no loader?
How do you move bales of hay, straw, silage?
Or are these smallies as well?

Username John

pedigree 6 wrote: »

This is going way off thread although it is a part i suppose.
Would there be many farmers with no loader?
How do you move bales of hay, straw, silage?
Or are these smallies as well?

Ah, I'm only a hobby farmer so I shouldn't be listened to really

But no loader here, small tractor - only sheep, outside almost all year, no silage... small bales of hay... so no huge need for machinery (or major interest)

'Farming in the fifties' as I like to describe it Pedigree...

kay 9

pedigree 6 wrote: »

You don't get 2ton of Urea on a pallet anymore.
The big bags are 375kgs and 4 bags makes a ton and a half.
So I presume it's the same with the smallies.

I was spreading the second fert round on grazed ground today and a 50kg bag to the acre of CAN using a big bag 500kgs would cover 10 acres.
With the urea today spreading three quarters of a 50kg bag (even though now there's no such thing anymore) /acre the 375kg bag covers 10 acres.

A little bit of a pain in the ass with 375kg bags.:cool:

Yeah it's a nuisance to work it out, I have to find the correct setting for spreader every year.
375kgs to 10 acres won't be as good as 500kg though.
Or have they concentrated it more or something? I'm lost lol

pedigree 6

Username John wrote: »

Ah, I'm only a hobby farmer so I shouldn't be listened to really

But no loader here, small tractor - only sheep, outside almost all year, no silage... small bales of hay... so no huge need for machinery (or major interest)

'Farming in the fifties' as I like to describe it Pedigree...

pedigree 6

kay 9 wrote: »

Yeah it's a nuisance to work it out, I have to find the correct setting for spreader every year.
375kgs to 10 acres won't be as good as 500kg though.
Or have they concentrated it more or something? I'm lost lol

Yea it's more concentrated.
CAN is 27 units of Nitrogen.
Urea has 46 units of Nitrogen.

Not sure if you're a full time farmer or not.
Don't care or doesn't matter tbh but I'd say there's been people using CAN for a lifetime and they've never noticed the combination of the different types of Nitrogen on the bag of CAN and never questioned it or looked into it.

So from myself. Well done on asking the question.

kay 9

pedigree 6 wrote: »

Yea it's more concentrated.
CAN is 27 units of Nitrogen.
Urea has 46 units of Nitrogen.

Not sure if you're a full time farmer or not.
Don't care or doesn't matter tbh but I'd say there's been people using CAN for a lifetime and they've never noticed the combination of the different types of Nitrogen on the bag of CAN and never questioned it or looked into it.

So from myself. Well done on asking the question.

Part time but full time this time of year. Personal circumstances has me stuck with more than I can chew at the moment tbh but that's another story. I know that urea and can are quite different in there make up but I like to learn. I sometimes think the older generations knew more than mine tbh. My great grandfather was a Fertiliser agent many moons ago and it was interesting going through the old charts. My basic understanding is that urea is best when conditions are damp, doesn't work as long.
Can is more stable and works for longer with less of a hit of nitrogen and doesn't starve the soil as much,best suited for grazing.
Would I be right? Thanks again pedigree...

Green farmer

pedigree 6 wrote: »

This is going way off thread although it is a part i suppose.
Would there be many farmers with no loader?
How do you move bales of hay, straw, silage?
Or are these smallies as well?

I'm sheep only, but feed 1 round silage bale a day with the bale spike on the back of tractor. Not sure what else a loader would add. Prefer to spend the few thousand on reseeding a field or something. Sheep are outside maybe 50 weeks a year. Contractor makes the silage . Spreading fert / topping are the only other jobs I do myself with the tractor.

kay 9

No loader here either. There's times I'd use it if I had it but can't warrant it for all the use I'd get. Hate working a tractor with loader anyway. Have been on two wheels at times on some of our ground and a loader I feel would tip the scales

pedigree 6

kay 9 wrote: »

Part time but full time this time of year. Personal circumstances has me stuck with more than I can chew at the moment tbh but that's another story. I know that urea and can are quite different in there make up but I like to learn. I sometimes think the older generations knew more than mine tbh. My great grandfather was a Fertiliser agent many moons ago and it was interesting going through the old charts. My basic understanding is that urea is best when conditions are damp, doesn't work as long.
Can is more stable and works for longer with less of a hit of nitrogen and doesn't starve the soil as much,best suited for grazing.
Would I be right? Thanks again pedigree...

You nearly have it there.
Urea works better in damp conditions but can take longer to get into the plant depending on weather conditions but can also turn into ammonia gas and disperse into the air and be lost through volitisation. It can as you say be harder on land than CAN as it turns into one form of Nitrogen and lowers the pH of the soil.

CAN is the opposite has the two forms of Nitrogen. Is more stable and won't turn into gas and disperse in the air. It works quicker in the soil usually two days to work. Although urea if washed in can be working in two days too. CAN as you say is easier on land as it has the two forms of Nitrogen with calcium added to help maintain the pH of the soil.
(Calcium is the main ingredient in lime to increase the soil pH).

I think that's most of what I've picked up on it.

Green farmer

If land dried out, what response would CAN give now ? Or would it want to be very dry ?

pedigree 6

Green farmer wrote: »

If land dried out, what response would CAN give now ? Or would it want to be very dry ?

As long as soil temperature is above 6 degrees, grass will grow and any fertilizer will work.

As long as it's not flooded it's fine.
Response of Nitrogen on its own depends on soil pH, phosphate and potassium in the soil and to a lesser but still important trace minerals in the soil.

kay 9

Thanks pedigree, waiting for the ground to dry up a bit here again after all the rain the past week. Then all the grazing is getting a hit of can/net nitrate. Local co-op took 10 days to deliver. Think I'll collect next time.

Count Mondego

Lads,

With high PH ground, 7 ish, does it matter if you use CAN or urea? I know you can't use urea after applying lime but is it less effective with high PH?

kay 9

Count Mondego wrote: »

Lads,

With high PH ground, 7 ish, does it matter if you use CAN or urea? I know you can't use urea after applying lime but is it less effective with high PH?

I'm thinking urea would be a better alternative due to can having calcium included.
Good question and I'm curious myself.
Hopefully the mighty pedigree will be along again.
What kind of ground are you on? It's usually low PH levels that occur.
After a quick Google, apparently sulphur will lower PH levels.

pedigree 6

Count Mondego wrote: »

Lads,

With high PH ground, 7 ish, does it matter if you use CAN or urea? I know you can't use urea after applying lime but is it less effective with high PH?

Yea it's more prone to volatilization into ammonium and carbon dioxide and be lost to the atmosphere with higher soil pH and higher temperatures if it's not washed into the soil.

Handy little chart here from the University of Minnesota.


Full link here.
http://www.extension.umn.edu/agriculture/nutrient-management/nitrogen/fertilizer-urea/