Height limits for buildings in Cork City

DylanGLC

I couldn't find an answer online so decided to ask here. Does anyone know what the building height limits are for buildings in Cork City? Is the Elysian's amount the max amount of stories allowed or are they allowed to go higher, and in what areas? Thank you

opus

Don't know the height limits but I'd guess higher than the elysian flats as Howard Holdings got permission for these bad boys back in '09, thirty & twenty stories afair.

flo8s967qjh0nd

It depends on the area of the city. The Cork City Development Plan has the details.

DylanGLC

I'm assuming those plans have since been scrapped?

Pablo Escobar

DylanGLC wrote: »

I'm assuming those plans have since been scrapped?

I've not heard of them being scrapped, but they're part of the Atlantic Quarter that would have made up part of the docklands project. I'm sure we'll see something there at some stage, but maybe not that scale.

There's a few videos on YouTube of the plans if you care to search.

DylanGLC

Just looked it up. According to the Wikipedia page they planned to have it done for 2013 but that clearly didn't happen, although the recession did. Who knows, maybe with the new 23 storey building being built in Dublin (leading to the Elysian no longer being the tallest building in the Republic), they may hurry up with it (or something else) to try and reclaim the title in Cork

opus

If by 'they' you mean Howard Holdings then afraid not as they've long since gone under with the director gone into hiding! Presume NAMA owns that land now but don't really know tbh.

DylanGLC

opus wrote: »

If by 'they' you mean Howard Holdings then afraid not as they've long since gone under with the director gone into hiding! Presume NAMA owns that land now but don't really know tbh.

"They" meant Howard Holidings but also any other developers in Cork looking to do something like it. I wonder what areas are appropriate. I couldn't find the height limits in the development plan but I assume they can't build a building so tall on something like Patrick's Street. Maybe on the land by Horgan's Quay (although, weren't there complaints about the seven storey building in Navigation Square being too tall for the area?)

opus

Hmmm I'll believe a 40-storey tower only when I see it!

Sky's no limit for New Cork as 40-storey tower proposed for Port site

namloc1980

A 40 storey building right on top of the bonded warehouses? That would look ridiculous I think.

the beer revolu

And so it starts.

I can't see this going ahead. Irish people, in general, don't seem to like high rise buildings.

I think it could be amazing; a really bold statement at the gateway to the city centre but I'm guessing that I'm in the minority.

I can see a completely watered down version of this getting the go ahead which will, no doubt, be bland and/or awful and not very tall.

namloc1980

the beer revolu wrote: »

And so it starts.

I can't see this going ahead. Irish people, in general, don't seem to like high rise buildings.

I think it could be amazing; a really bold statement at the gateway to the city centre but I'm guessing that I'm in the minority.

I can see a completely watered down version of this getting the go ahead which will, no doubt, be bland and/or awful and not very tall.

No problem with tall buildings but right on top of an historic landmark building like the Bonded Warehouses is not the place for it. Seriously some people just love to see big buildings no matter where they are built.

AugustusMinimus

The Facebook brigade are out in force. Seemingly this money would be much better spent on the homeless.

The problem with social media is that it gives the informed and the uninformed equal standing.

namloc1980

This needs to have the requisite investment in supporting infrastructure if it goes ahead. Transport, civic infrastructure etc. This tower only further strengthens the case for the east west rapid transport corridor through Cork city. But will the politicians get their finger out.....not likely.

Balmed Out

namloc1980 wrote: »

No problem with tall buildings but right on top of an historic landmark building like the Bonded Warehouses is not the place for it. Seriously some people just love to see big buildings no matter where they are built.

I love the bonded warehouses and something like this would ensure they are kept in good condition and actually used and accessible to people so im all for it.

vkid

And they are going to do all this for 100 million give or take 50...
Is the elysian all occupied at this stage?

the beer revolu

namloc1980 wrote: »

No problem with tall buildings but right on top of an historic landmark building like the Bonded Warehouses is not the place for it. Seriously some people just love to see big buildings no matter where they are built.

I have a great love for the Bonded Warehouse. I've been in the vaults countless times. It is an amazing building. I've also rowed around it and walked around it many, many times. It's one of my favorite buildings in Cork.

I'd love to see a bold, modern, well designed building incorporated into the site.

namloc1980

the beer revolu wrote: »

I have a great love for the Bonded Warehouse. I've been in the vaults countless times. It is an amazing building. I've also rowed around it and walked around it many, many times. It's one of my favorite buildings in Cork.

I'd love to see a bold, modern, well designed building incorporated into the site.

Look as long as it's well designed and didn't ruin what's there then it'll be welcome. But the supporting transport infrastructure is also needed to support this. Unfortunately transport infrastructure in Cork is sadly lacking and improving it isn't even on the radar of the national capital plan.

Meursault

We wont get the transport unless there population density increases in the city centre.

As much as I want this to happen, plans like these never seem to get off the ground in Cork, for whatever reason. The progress at the Event Centre is glacial, so its hard to be optimistic about even bigger projects.

The bonded warehouses have huge potential and i dont see why a modern structure like this proposed building would take away from the area. They really need to be renovated though. The whole docklands needs to be renovated and rejuvenated. It is an eyesore at the moment.

It will be interesting to see what happens from here. Fingers crossed.

BUNK1982

Looking at paper reports the 40 storey tower is planned for the apex of where the river splits in two - right where the port of cork sign is now.

I can remember the work that was done to dig foundations for the Elysian so doing something even bigger here will be a massive project.

I hope it goes ahead - a tower like that would give a real iconic look to the city as you come in the lower glanmire road.

opus

Balmed Out wrote: »

I love the bonded warehouses and something like this would ensure they are kept in good condition and actually used and accessible to people so im all for it.

For sure it would be great to see them in use and accessible to the public. My boss was telling me earlier that the building at the front needs a lot of refurb as well as he was in there recently.

Looking at Google satellite images, it's not a huge space down at the pointy end to squeeze in that building.

deRanged

Those structures are all protected, so whatever they do will have to maintain them and incorporate them. It sounds fantastic though.

namloc1980

Meursault wrote: »

We wont get the transport unless there population density increases in the city centre.

This is one of the biggest myths that is constantly perpetuated about public transportation​. Cork actually has a very reasonable density at 3,600 people per square kilometre. Compares very favourably to cities across Europe. And that's before you add in places like Douglas. Also putting up buildings before you put in infrastructure to support it is again a nonsense and the antithesis of good planning. But we don't do very good planning in Ireland so it's no surprise we do things arseways.

BUNK1982

opus wrote: »

Looking at Google satellite images, it's not a huge space down at the pointy end to squeeze in that building.

i was thinking that as well but i imagine they should be able to engineer it to expand that site out into the river?

Balmed Out

BUNK1982 wrote: »

i was thinking that as well but i imagine they should be able to engineer it to expand that site out into the river?

using https://www.daftlogic.com/projects-google-maps-area-calculator-tool.htm
it looks like going very close to the existing warehouses would give about 149m2 which is pretty much the same as the tower section of the Elysian so I would imagine so.

AugustusMinimus

Considering the piling that will be required for this project, it wouldn't take much more effort to expand the size of the quay.

Meursault

namloc1980 wrote: »

This is one of the biggest myths that is constantly perpetuated about public transportation​. Cork actually has a very reasonable density at 3,600 people per square kilometre. Compares very favourably to cities across Europe. And that's before you add in places like Douglas. Also putting up buildings before you put in infrastructure to support it is again a nonsense and the antithesis of good planning. But we don't do very good planning in Ireland so it's no surprise we do things arseways.

That's a reasonable point you are making there, but what I was talking about is in an Irish context, where you would nearly have to be at breaking point before a large capital investment is made. Take the motorway to limerick, the bypass around macroom, the upgrade of Dunkettle as examples.

If we see large projects like this going ahead, then it becomes a necessity to look at transport. I agree with your point, but proper planning just doesn't happen that way in Ireland unfortunately.

namloc1980

Meursault wrote: »

That's a reasonable point you are making there, but what I was talking about is in an Irish context, where you would nearly have to be at breaking point before a large capital investment is made. Take the motorway to limerick, the bypass around macroom, the upgrade of Dunkettle as examples.

If we see large projects like this going ahead, then it becomes a necessity to look at transport. I agree with your point, but proper planning just doesn't happen that way in Ireland unfortunately.

The problem comes when you want to attract large scale businesses to these offices. Brexit is a prime opportunity to mop up some business from the UK but we're already seeing Dublin lose out to European cities due to insufficient infrastructure. Looking at Cork. We don't have sufficient housing stock to accommodate workers and an inadequate public transit system to move those people around. I get what you're saying in an Irish context but just once it would be nice if we planned these things properly. Decent public transport doesn't just materialise once you reach the designated minimum density (whatever arbitrary figure that maybe) it must be planned and put in place as you develop and secondly where public transport is of poor quality and unattractive such as in Cork, building up the urban density does not make it any more attractive and people will remain in their cars.

Prioritising public transport and other service improvements early on while recognising that changes in urban density are slow processes, means that people can take advantage of improved transport immediately. This improves the overall livability and attractiveness of the urban area. It'll never happen but it's what should happen.

flo8s967qjh0nd

This looks like a good proposal to get he ball rolling on developing this site. I love the bonded warehouses too but it needs a big development to get them back open and back in use.
In the end, we won't get a 40 storey tower. It will get reduced, etc. but if anywhere can accomodate a tall, statement tower it's here (engineering questions aside).

Pitcairn

The appropriately titled TALL BUILDINGS POLICY from Cork City Council (2008) has the following graphic suggesting 96 metres is the upper limit. The Elysian in 70 metres.
Not sure how strictly it would be enforced.

namloc1980

Pitcairn wrote: »

The appropriately titled TALL BUILDINGS POLICY from Cork City Council (2008) has the following graphic suggesting 96 metres is the upper limit. The Elysian in 70 metres.
Not sure how strictly it would be enforced.

And that suggests the upper limit is for the Eastern Gateway site, no tall building was envisaged on the Port of Cork site so it'll be interesting to see how it goes. Also saw this on the policy which was funny:

Tall buildings, as with the general intensification of the city, will only be appropriate where a very high quality public transport system is in operation or proposed and programmed for implementation. Significant intensification will only be appropriate where a public mass transit is either in operation or its delivery programmed.

If the Council follow their own policy they should only give the go ahead if there is a very high quality public transport system in operation or being implemented and built.

Pitcairn

namloc1980 wrote: »

If the Council follow their own policy they should only give the go ahead if there is a very high quality public transport system in operation or being implemented and built.

Would be a good reason to push for the Rapid Bus Corridor from Ballincollig to the Docklands, with an eventual extension to Mahon.
It is in our current development plan so it has to happen sooner or later.

mire

namloc1980 wrote: »

This is one of the biggest myths that is constantly perpetuated about public transportation​. Cork actually has a very reasonable density at 3,600 people per square kilometre. Compares very favourably to cities across Europe. And that's before you add in places like Douglas. Also putting up buildings before you put in infrastructure to support it is again a nonsense and the antithesis of good planning. But we don't do very good planning in Ireland so it's no surprise we do things arseways.

That figure you quote is wrong. Cork's density is about one third of that. Unfortunately.

namloc1980

mire wrote: »

That figure you quote is wrong. Cork's density is about one third of that. Unfortunately.

Cork city population is 126,000. City area is 37.2sq km = c.3.6k per square km.

mire

namloc1980 wrote: »

Cork city population is 126,000. City area is 37.2sq km = c.3.6k per square km.

It's much more useful to use the built up area as the unit for measurement when calculating density. Your figures refer to the administrative area.

who_me

the beer revolu wrote: »

And so it starts.

I can't see this going ahead. Irish people, in general, don't seem to like high rise buildings.

I think it could be amazing; a really bold statement at the gateway to the city centre but I'm guessing that I'm in the minority.

I can see a completely watered down version of this getting the go ahead which will, no doubt, be bland and/or awful and not very tall.

Arguably Cork has lead the way (or at least, has dragged its feet the least) when it comes to height, looking at the County Hall decades ago and the Elysian now. Personally I've no problem with height, for me it's all about quality and location.

To me (in the limited, low res shots I've seen) it looks great. But I don't agree at all with the location. Visually, having a 40-floor tower next to 2-4 floor builds just seems off. The same building would be much better along the South Docklands in particular where the typical height will be closer.

I don't really understand how it makes sense to have such a big building with such a tiny footprint, no green areas, no parking presumably, immediately adjacent to one of the busiest city-centre routes.

On the last point, I'm 100% with you. Regardless of my feelings on the location, I find it a bit depressing how the standard approach to every ambitious development seems to be 'lop a few stories off, make it a boxy 6-8 floor mixed development', just like every other proposal. I remember seeing an interesting design for the tiny confined triangular site next to the bus station, which was similarly "blanded" to oblivion.

namloc1980

Pitcairn wrote: »

Would be a good reason to push for the Rapid Bus Corridor from Ballincollig to the Docklands, with an eventual extension to Mahon.
It is in our current development plan so it has to happen sooner or later.

Just because it's in the development plan doesn't mean it'll happen. Without central government funding nothing can happen. The two key pieces of infrastructure required to unlock the docklands are the rapid transit corridor and the Eastern Gateway bridge. Neither project appears on the current government capital spending plan out to 2021. There is a review of that plan due to be published this September but I would be amazed if either project made the cut. Cork will continue to get the crumbs in terms of infrastructure.

who_me

On the more general question of heights, I think the North and South docklands, around County Hall (if I'm not mistaken) and Blackpool were the areas highlighted for taller buildings.

I remember reading about Atlantic Quarter and the Marina Commercial Park developments.. wonder if this one will see the light of day.

namloc1980

Whatever happens the planning process for this is going to be painfully long. Wait until An Taisce get their objections in....years of planning pain ahead.

Water John

Yeah, just one person is holding up the Apple dev in Athenry. The same guy is now objecting to other industrial tech developments.
Apple have a similar dev in Denmark, announced the same time and is now building.

Have no major issue with the new proposed building and it height. If people are afraid of a crick in their neck, don't look up.

MrDerp

Meursault wrote: »

That's a reasonable point you are making there, but what I was talking about is in an Irish context, where you would nearly have to be at breaking point before a large capital investment is made. Take the motorway to limerick, the bypass around macroom, the upgrade of Dunkettle as examples.

If we see large projects like this going ahead, then it becomes a necessity to look at transport. I agree with your point, but proper planning just doesn't happen that way in Ireland unfortunately.

To be fair, this is across the road from the train station, which has two commuter lines which are under developed from a housing perspective. Dunkettle has plans for houses and a train station and P&R can be accommodated. Monard is needed soon. The Tivoli docks area will provide an opportunity for higher density development and parkland, and a rail station can be provided there. The south docklands and Atlantic quarter can provide homes with a short quality bus corridor.

The city/county planning is not joined up. There is rail infrastructure on the ground north of the lee, and we should be extending boundaries and building affordable housing units there. Continuing to build up the Rochestown and Maryborough hill areas, along with Carrigaline, and bemoaning the transport system is nuts when there's two train lines and green belt within 5km on the north side, along with docklands to be developed.

I guess the initial step to unlocking this is the dunkettle interchange, M28 and port move. There's a massive infrastructure deficit though too if you include the North Ring Road and the need for a bridge to unlock the Atlantic quarter

namloc1980

MrDerp wrote: »

To be fair, this is across the road from the train station, which has two commuter lines which are under developed from a housing perspective. Dunkettle has plans for houses and a train station and P&R can be accommodated. Monard is needed soon. The Tivoli docks area will provide an opportunity for higher density development and parkland, and a rail station can be provided there. The south docklands and Atlantic quarter can provide homes with a short quality bus corridor.

The city/county planning is not joined up. There is rail infrastructure on the ground north of the lee, and we should be extending boundaries and building affordable housing units there. Continuing to build up the Rochestown and Maryborough hill areas, along with Carrigaline, and bemoaning the transport system is nuts when there's two train lines and green belt within 5km on the north side, along with docklands to be developed.

I guess the initial step to unlocking this is the dunkettle interchange, M28 and port move. There's a massive infrastructure deficit though too if you include the North Ring Road and the need for a bridge to unlock the Atlantic quarter

Spot on. Moving the port to Ringaskiddy is needed so that the Docklands can be freed up for development. But realistically it'll be 2025 before the M28 and port move are completed at the earliest. And you're talking the 2030s before the NRR and Eastern Gateway bridge see light of day.

whisky_galore

deRanged wrote: »

Those structures are all protected, so whatever they do will have to maintain them and incorporate them. It sounds fantastic though.

LOL.

Developing 'protected' buildings in this place involves gutting or outright demolishing the insides and leaving a façade.

lisasimpson

Exactly residental should focus along the exisiting rail lines esp with office developement occuring in the city centre
one thing that should have been done was moving the bus station over to train station site to help link up the transport options. Big enough site along the quays to do it. Unfortunately that sort of thinking doesnt happen too often

marno21

Delighted to see this plan considering the amount of shoebox sized rubbish being fired up in Dublin.

Cork needs substantial capital investment now as proposed in the submission to the 2040 National Planning Framework. The M20 to Limerick, N22 to Macroom, N25 towards Waterford, M28 (immediate priority), the Dunkettle Interchange, and a heavily upgraded, possibly motorway N71. The North Ring Road (both east and west, I think west is more important as that quadrant of the city has terrible road connections, no direct connection to the N40 and also has the colleges and hospital) is also pivotal and needs to have its planning resumed. A north south and east west public transit corridor is badly needed too, along with looking at a possible runway extension for the airport.

Hopefully we can do this right but this is a massive step in the right direction.

DylanGLC

Irish Examiner

High rise apartment blocks could be on the way as the Government has proposed scrapping height restrictions for city buildings.

They are also getting rid of the mandatory requirement to have car parking spaces in apartment buildings.

They plan to develop communal housing blocks for young professionals, in a similar set up to student accommodation.

Housing Minister Eoghan Murphy will also seek to bring down the cost of building apartments, by reducing the requirement for parking spaces in new builds.

Announcing the proposal, he insisted that people do not need the expense of a car that is “lying idle” in cities where there is sufficient public transport on offer.

Mr Murphy said: "The onus will be on the developer to prove why there should be car-parking places provided in apartment buildings.

“Basically we are going to remove the requirement that there should be any parking spaces at all.

“I have also announced my intention to remove the numerical height when it comes to restrictions for building apartments.

“This is to make sure that we have viable high density developments - particularly in our city centre cores.”

Speaking this morning, Minister Eoghan Murphy said the height restriction on apartment blocks in place in cities around the country “does not make sense” – however he warned there will be no free-for-all for high rise developments, should the restrictions be eased.

Minister Murphy called for more studio and one-bed apartments as well as specialist developments for older people and down-sizers.

He said he is also considering communal living apartment blocks – similar to those used for student accommodation – for young professionals.

“We have to free ourselves from the mindset that everyone will live in a three-bedroom house at every stage of their lives,” he told the conference.

snotboogie

Pretty immediate response from Times Square
http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/progress-on-plan-for-40-storey-port-build-planning-for-custom-house-site-project-to-be-sought-early-next-year-460476.html
Not without it's own set of worries of course

marno21

snotboogie wrote: »

Pretty immediate response from Times Square
http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/progress-on-plan-for-40-storey-port-build-planning-for-custom-house-site-project-to-be-sought-early-next-year-460476.html
Not without it's own set of worries of course

Bring it on I say.

Title of "real capital" may be up for grabs in the next few years

whisky_galore

snotboogie wrote: »

Pretty immediate response from Times Square
http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/progress-on-plan-for-40-storey-port-build-planning-for-custom-house-site-project-to-be-sought-early-next-year-460476.html
Not without it's own set of worries of course

Of course, only the very well off will be able to afford apartments in this.

zetalambda

Some renders of the proposed development at the Port of Cork site that i saw on another message board:

Water John

Nice to have your yacht, outside the door.