IMPORTANT: game rules discussion

sullivlo

Hello folks,

I'm posting first with my boards mod hat on.

When I look in a thread of a forum that I moderate, deleted posts show as "deleted", so they leave a trace. It's the same for posts that have been edited - I can see the original.

During the recent game, there were posts deleted. Relatively harmless content, but against the game rules. I informed the game mods of the situation and let them decide.

However moving forward I think we should discuss the issue and what should be done if it happens again.

The game rules specifically say that you can't post in the game thread once you've been killed. Posting and deleting the post, in my opinion, goes against game rules. In the same way that deleting posts is against game rules as it is editing essentially.

How does anyone else feel about this? And what, if any, should the sanctions be?

It is possible to revoke forum access for offenders (which could be reinstated after the game finishes), but is that extreme? In the case of posting after death.

And what should be done with deleted posts that may or may not have an impact on the game?

Just something I think we should discuss before the next game so that we know what to do should the issue arise.

Digital Solitude

No deleting of posts for players, for any reason.

Can you ban people from threads specifically?

Triceratops Ballet

I agree totally, the game is based on trust, and while we reviewed the content in this game and made a call based on the fact that the content didnt impact the game, it is still rule breaking.

I felt, and I said to Sully that I didn't like the idea of banning someone from the subforum purely based on the fact that I was a mod for 1 game. It was added pressure to modding a game that I didn't need. We all sign up to the games and in doing so we agree to be bound by the rules, there should be a penalty for breaking them that is set and agreed upon outside of the individual games and mods. I say this for two reasons, firstly I think it's unfair to put game mods in that position as we're all just volunteering our time to plan and run the game, secondly an agreed penalty outside the context of each game ensures fair application regardless of the game mod and their personal feelings towards the offender.

sullivlo

Digital Solitude wrote: »

No deleting of posts for players, for any reason.

Can you ban people from threads specifically?

Nope.

sullivlo

dottie_lottie wrote: »

I agree totally, the game is based on trust, and while we reviewed the content in this game and made a call based on the fact that the content didnt impact the game, it is still rule breaking.

I felt, and I said to Sully that I didn't like the idea of banning someone from the subforum purely based on the fact that I was a mod for 1 game. It was added pressure to modding a game that I didn't need. We all sign up to the games and in doing so we agree to be bound by the rules, there should be a penalty for breaking them that is set and agreed upon outside of the individual games and mods. I say this for two reasons, firstly I think it's unfair to put game mods in that position as we're all just volunteering our time to plan and run the game, secondly an agreed penalty outside the context of each game ensures fair application regardless of the game mod and their personal feelings towards the offender.

Agree that there needs to be an agreed penalty. It's just a case of what the penalty should be.

Totally appreciate the situation you were in and respect the decision you made, I just think we need to standardise a response.

quickbeam

sullivlo wrote: »

And what should be done with deleted posts that may or may not have an impact on the game?

I think deleted posts should be restored, even if they have nothing to do with the game.

As for sanctions, I don't know. I think there should be some consequence though an outright ban might be too harsh.

I have to be honest and say I was disappointed at the news of deleted posts this game.

sullivlo

quickbeam wrote: »

I think deleted posts should be restored, even if they have nothing to do with the game.

As for sanctions, I don't know. I think there should be some consequence though an outright ban might be too harsh.

I have to be honest and say I was disappointed at the news of deleted posts this game.

I was disappointed too

I don't mean an outright ban, but if someone is posting from the dead, should their access be revoked until the next game?

y0ssar1an22

sullivlo wrote: »

I was disappointed too

I don't mean an outright ban, but if someone is posting from the dead, should their access be revoked until the next game?

perhaps revoke access until current game ends?

Uriel.

There is also the issue, and I appreciate perhaps not a lot can be done about this, that we were lucky to be informed of the edits, purely due to the fact that a Boards Moderator was actively engaged in the game.

In the normal course, game moderators, who are not Boards Moderators cannot see deleted posts (edits at least show as a label for all to see, though not the content of the edit).

I can definitely appreciate that active posters on other parts of Boards, could without any malice edit a post without thinking (I've almost done it myself on occasion) but I would definitely agree that we should have a standard approach to dealing with these issues as part of a rolling game rule.

In terms of what the approach is, is more complex. Booting a player from an active game can be difficult, in terms of maintaining the balance (especially if the player is roled). For example, in the game just gone, there was no real substitute/reserve list to call on.

Non-players or dead players re-engaging in a live game is something that we can, probably, do more about - such as temporary loss of access to WW (if possible?) and removal of access from the DR etc.

The_Valeyard

I seem to miss all the naughty behaviour!

Just think penalites should not be severe as it seems to be very infrequent it's nearly not an issue.

sullivlo

Uriel. wrote: »

There is also the issue, and I appreciate perhaps not a lot can be done about this, that we were lucky to be informed of the edits, purely due to the fact that a Boards Moderator was actively engaged in the game.

In the normal course, game moderators, who are not Boards Moderators cannot see deleted posts (edits at least show as a label for all to see, though not the content of the edit).

I can definitely appreciate that active posters on other parts of Boards, could without any malice edit a post without thinking (I've almost done it myself on occasion) but I would definitely agree that we should have a standard approach to dealing with these issues as part of a rolling game rule.

In terms of what the approach is, is more complex. Booting a player from an active game can be difficult, in terms of maintaining the balance (especially if the player is roled). For example, in the game just gone, there was no real substitute/reserve list to call on.

Non-players or dead players re-engaging in a live game is something that we can, probably, do more about - such as temporary loss of access to WW (if possible?) and removal of access from the DR etc.

And that's the other factor - is it something that I should ignore? I'm kinda in a tricky position in that I don't want to rat on people but equally I don't want the game to be spoiled for anyone. It's easy for me to ignore, but if I'm still playing and someone from beyond the grave posts a spoiler from the dead room and deletes it, that could be an unfair disadvantage.

I'm not talking about severe punishment. I just think that it's something that we should have a protocol for in the event that it happens again.

Revoking access to the WW subforum for dead players is easy to do, and then reinstate access when needed.

But I'd be more comfortable if we had a plan in place before the next game.

Tigger

sullivlo wrote: »

And that's the other factor - is it something that I should ignore? I'm kinda in a tricky position in that I don't want to rat on people but equally I don't want the game to be spoiled for anyone. It's easy for me to ignore, but if I'm still playing and someone from beyond the grave posts a spoiler from the dead room and deletes it, that could be an unfair disadvantage.

I'm not talking about severe punishment. I just think that it's something that we should have a protocol for in the event that it happens again.

Revoking access to the WW subforum for dead players is easy to do, and then reinstate access when needed.

But I'd be more comfortable if we had a plan in place before the next game.

i don't know what i posted the fit time, i was locked

secion time i was offering to join in a 4 way they were dicussing (i know they were joking i thought it was funny) again i was quite the merry

yesterdau i was doing tht thing where i quote a post here and nswer it and then i opy it and pted the whold lot in the dedd room, and i pressed a wrong key

i was cryimg with laughter at the time so it posted in the wrong plaec and it was only there for a micro second


if access can be changed to red only only for the ww subfotum that would be brilliant as it would allow us to read but not interfere in the game
stopping people from reading the forum if they are dead woul ruin it i think

i'll be honest herev i appologised for my drunken behaviour and not one person thanked it so i felt less orry and more why did i bother omming forward

i shall remove myself from the next two games as self punihment

if Sully or Dottie or evil Ariel think it should be loner then i'll consider it but i think 2 games ith my level of interest is punishment enough

edit for clarity

if you look i'mment to be helping run game 11 so i'll be skipping game 10 and 12 i wont be playing till 13 wish is june an i'll have modded a gemby then so will "have walked a mile in you shoes"

Tigger

just out of interest was it only me?

Uriel.

Tigger wrote: »

i don't know what i posted the fit time, i was locked

secion time i was offering to join in a 4 way they were dicussing (i know they were joking i thought it was funny) again i was quite the merry

yesterdau i was doing tht thing where i quote a post here and nswer it and then i opy it and pted the whold lot in the dedd room, and i pressed a wrong key

i was cryimg with laughter at the time so it posted in the wrong plaec and it was only there for a micro second


if access can be changed to red only only for the ww subfotum that would be brilliant as it would allow us to read but not interfere in the game
stopping people from reading the forum if they are dead woul ruin it i think

i'll be honest herev i appologised for my drunken behaviour and not one person thanked it so i felt less orry and more why did i bother omming forward

i shall remove myself from the next two games as self punihment

if Sully or Dottie or evil Ariel think it should be loner then i'll consider it but i think 2 games ith my level of interest is punishment enough

Tigger I don't think there's a need for exile, self or mod directed. Personally, I think games would be the poorer without your involvement.

I have no lasting hangup with you from the game just gone. In fairness to you on the deleted posts you put yourself forward. Dottie and I purposely did not reveal anything about the player in question as we didn't feel it was necessary or warranted to personalise the issue.

I think overall the discussion is now, rightly so imo, just focused on a standard protocol for future games. Particularly as I have to agree that sulli as a boards mod and game participant is in the most awkward position of all. An agreed consistent protocol would benefit everyone and I don't think it needs to be overly elaborate

andy125

If anyone posts from the afterlife just remove the access, they can still read but not post and I don't see that as a punishment just a precaution that I'm sure no one would take offence too

sullivlo

Uriel. wrote: »

Tigger I don't think there's a need for exile, self or mod directed. Personally, I think games would be the poorer without your involvement.

I have no lasting hangup with you from the game just gone. In fairness to you on the deleted posts you put yourself forward. Dottie and I purposely did not reveal anything about the player in question as we didn't feel it was necessary or warranted to personalise the issue.

I think overall the discussion is now, rightly so imo, just focused on a standard protocol for future games. Particularly as I have to agree that sulli as a boards mod and game participant is in the most awkward position of all. An agreed consistent protocol would benefit everyone and I don't think it needs to be overly elaborate

No exile needed at all! It's just that we're all on the same page going forward.

quickbeam

Maybe, related to the above, we need a rule on dead people thanking posts.

Shortly after I was lynched last game, somebody (Barney, I think) posted that he thought I was good and I thanked it. And again when Vale announced my role, I thanked his post too. I removed both afterwards, thinking maybe, as a dead person, I shouldn't have done that. I don't know - neither "thank" would have effected live-players' game, but some thanks by a dead person, such as thanking a post that says "I think X is a wolf" obviously would affect play. So maybe a blanket ban against dead people thanking posts should also be in place?

I did a ninja edit on a post. Like seconds after I posed, I saw a typo. It isn't marked as "edited" along the bottom. Does it come up as edited for a moderator? Probably best if this ins't done either

Triceratops Ballet

I also don't think exclusion is necessarily warranted based on this game

I'd support some kind of read only access for "dead" players, if that's not possible. Then exclusion from the sub-forum and deadroom for the duration of the current game are adequate. If it's an ongoing issue (which I don't think it ever would be) then we can talk about fixed term or indefinite bans.

I'd also be in support of a blanket ban on thanking posts once you die. Once you die you have access to information that live players do not, and whether it is intended in such a way or not, live players could take the thanks as indicative of the true state of play.

To me not knowing what's real and what's not is one of the key things that make this game simultaneously amazing and horrible and I think we should do what we can to keep the game as free from outside influence as possible.

Pawwed Rig

Regarding sanction or exclusion that is entirely up to sull as the forum mod. She can act on advice of the game mods if she sees fit but is not obliged to.
Where sull is involved in the game this causes an issue. We hope to name another mod soon so hopefully the issue will be resolved however if both are involved in the game a cmod can step in if required.

Tigger

I think is obvious that it should. E Jaylop
He is the reason this is all here

Tigger

It will a hally be game 14 before I play again
If anyone wants a Co mod for 10 or UFC was talking about doing a fast game I'd be interested in seeing behind the scenes

Digital Solitude

I don't think anyone doesn't want you to step back from the game Tig, in all fairness posting in the thread hasn't spoiled any games, if someone can't adhere remove their access for the current game and leave it at that.

If it gets more serious with spoilers or what not, I'd say a ban is warranted depending on the circumstances.

Tigger

Digital Solitude wrote: »

I don't think anyone doesn't want you to step back from the game Tig, in all fairness posting in the thread hasn't spoiled any games, if someone can't adhere remove their access for the current game and leave it at that.

If it gets more serious with spoilers or what not, I'd say a ban is warranted depending on the circumstances.

I think that I affect the game dramatically when I play, I'm not saying I'm the only one who does but nobody else gets people backs up the way I do and nobody else messes and breaks the rules as much as I do. I'm interested in the game and I can make predictions and help with rule or scenario development rather tan jsut play.

I dont think its be fair on Sully to have to be removing people from having acesses on precautionary terms, she'd become a defecto game mod every game even in a minor capacity.

Pawwed Rig also said its not really possible if she is playing.

We could do things like ingame sanctions, like warnings, mod votes for lynches or in extreme cases Mod kills.

So maybe a minor offence is a warning, something more major could be at game mods discression like loss of powers or something it's kinda hard to say as itd depend on how much the discression imbalanced the game

Triceratops Ballet

Deleted User wrote: »

I dont think its be fair on Sully to have to be removing people from having acesses on precautionary terms, she'd become a defecto game mod every game even in a minor capacity.

Pawwed Rig also said its not really possible if she is playing.

We could do things like ingame sanctions, like warnings, mod votes for lynches or in extreme cases Mod kills.

So maybe a minor offence is a warning, something more major could be at game mods discression like loss of powers or something it's kinda hard to say as itd depend on how much the discression imbalanced the game

The problem is that without sully (or any other boards mod) pointing it out, the game mods don't know it's happening.

I'm happy enough with how we handled it, and if it had been more serious we'd possibly have modkilled the player and replaced them. But it's useful to have an agreed protocal for game mods so we can ensure that it's applied evenly and fairly to stop someone with a personal issue agains a player from unfairly punishing them in game.

dottie_lottie

dottie_lottie wrote: »

The problem is that without sully (or any other boards mod) pointing it out, the game mods don't know it's happening.

I'm happy enough with how we handled it, and if it had been more serious we'd possibly have modkilled the player and replaced them. But it's useful to have an agreed protocal for game mods so we can ensure that it's applied evenly and fairly to stop someone with a personal issue agains a player from unfairly punishing them in game.

If it happens again its kinda pot luck as to weather it is found or not though, we cant but procedures in place for posts to be checked by Mods.

I think from game to game Gmod discretion is best it is in effect thier game people sign up to play thier rules so should be happy with what they say.

Everything for warning to modkills should be on the table mind.

I just dont see how we can agree anything exactly on procedures as each case could be wildly or incrimentally different.

Maybe something for repeat offenders but thats just my 2 cents

Pawwed Rig

To be fair in the 2 games I played the issue did not arise at all as far as I recall. So most people abide by the 'rules'.

sullivlo

Pawwed Rig wrote: »

To be fair in the 2 games I played the issue did not arise at all as far as I recall. So most people abide by the 'rules'.

Uh huh. It's just that it happened to happen twice in the same game and it didn't feel right to discuss it while there was a live game ongoing, hence raising the issue with the game mods and allowing them to make the call.

The only other issue previously was when someone accidentally reported a post instead of replying.

I'm happy to go with the consensus, I just think it's better to discuss now rather than if it happens in some other games and it has an impact on the outcome!

quickbeam

sullivlo wrote: »

The only other issue previously was when someone accidentally reported a post instead of replying.

That was me, wasn't it I was using my phone for replying which I hardly ever do and didn't know the right button to press. Soz

Tigger

sullivlo wrote: »

Uh huh. It's just that it happened to happen twice in the same game and it didn't feel right to discuss it while there was a live game ongoing, hence raising the issue with the game mods and allowing them to make the call.

The only other issue previously was when someone accidentally reported a post instead of replying.

I'm happy to go with the consensus, I just think it's better to discuss now rather than if it happens in some other games and it has an impact on the outcome!

I didn't actually realise we could still read the forum
Logged out so I'll be logging out and then drunk me or horney me or clumsy me can't make a mistake
As for the deleted in game posts I don't know what they were but I was told I was being a Cnut so I deleted them I honestly don't remember what I said
I've apologised already to whoever ( an apology to whoever seems so shallow )
I thought it was probably Raze
I'm not an al o btw it was the weekend of my double 21st Douglas Adams ritual at I was drinking with friends while messing on my phone every so ifter

Alright how about we break it down in the different categories....



Minor- A break of the Edit rule or posting dead rule no effect on the game

Medium - a break or rule you used to cover up a mistake you made

Major - A break of the Edit rule or posting dead rule with a major effect on the game

Nuclear - going into the backroom and laying in all out on game thread

The above is just an example but if we had something like this as a template it would be nice where minor would be game mod discression and nuclear maybe a 3-6 game ban.

Then we could have all in between

Tigger

Deleted User wrote: »

Alright how about we break it down in the different categories....



Minor- A break of the Edit rule or posting dead rule no effect on the game

Medium - a break or rule you used to cover up a mistake you made

Major - A break of the Edit rule or posting dead rule with a major effect on the game

Nuclear - going into the backroom and laying in all out on game thread

The above is just an example but if we had something like this as a template it would be nice where minor would be game mod discression and nuclear maybe a 3-6 game ban.

Then we could have all in between

I got a set of glasses
When I. Ollie fed the set

sKeith

The dead room access thread 'purgatory' is inside the private subforum. I wanted to access the dead rooms, but i needed to get write access to this private werewolf forum in order to do this, were as, if this thread 'pugatory' access thread was outside, then private forum access could be restricted to live players and as players die they could be struck off. [maybe this requires more privs than the game mods currently have, i'm new]

Tigger

sKeith wrote: »

The dead room access thread 'purgatory' is inside the private subforum. I wanted to access the dead rooms, but i needed to get write access to this private werewolf forum in order to do this, were as, if this thread 'pugatory' access thread was outside, then private forum access could be restricted to live players and as players die they could be struck off. [maybe this requires more privs than the game mods currently have, i'm new]

Hi Keith the serial killer
Being new is not an excuse we speak in absolutes here with RTG courage of our convictions


Welcom

sullivlo

sKeith wrote: »

The dead room access thread 'purgatory' is inside the private subforum. I wanted to access the dead rooms, but i needed to get write access to this private werewolf forum in order to do this, were as, if this thread 'pugatory' access thread was outside, then private forum access could be restricted to live players and as players die they could be struck off. [maybe this requires more privs than the game mods currently have, i'm new]

That, in theory, would work. But it would be a lot of extra work for the boards mods in advance of the next game.

Good point about the purgatory thread thought, will move that!

Tigger

Tigger wrote: »

I got a set of glasses
When I. Ollie fed the set

My tigger translator has broken

Tigger

Deleted User wrote: »

My tigger translator has broken

it says basically that I got a set of glasses
When I. Ollie fed the set

like collecting stamps for nipprs

sKeith

does that puppet have giant snot bubbles coming out of its nostrils?

Tigger

sKeith wrote: »

does that puppet have giant snot bubbles coming out of its nostrils?

no

Tigger

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mg-gb9p65Z0

sKeith

What are the two white bubbles below his nose supposed to be then ?

Jayop

Sorry guys I never see these threads because I usually only ever check the threads I've already posted in.

Personally I'd be inclined to use a yellow and red card system for the game mods. Clearly sometimes else would need to be thought of as that's to close to the actual boards infraction system but you get the idea. If something like this happens in a game then the game mod decided if it's a severe offense based on previous standards. They can choose to modkill a player still alive as am obvious punishment and if the offense is serous then a red card for the offending dead player who's posting which would see them banned for the next one game.

The problem with these punishments are that they effect the game more than anything. Everyone who's modded a game knows that mod killing is a last resort as it screws up the balance. Banning someone from playing is crap too as the numbers aren't exactly massive as is so removing players from the pool sucks for the mods of the next game.

All that said I still think the threat of a one game ban should be there. It's not like we have a major problem with this so it will hopefully not come up again anyway.

It really should be something that's dealt with by the players and not the mods though imo as no one is breaking boards rules so actual bans can't really happen bar someone going out to ruin a game and breaking the site wide 'don't be a dick' rule.

sullivlo

The only boards mod action I would really consider would be temporary removal of access to the werewolf sub forum if a poster was posting from the grave.

Jayop

Yeah I'd agree and even then it would want yo be something serious like game wrecking intentionally.