Flatline.....

pgibbo

Maybe I'm way off the mark here but it appears to me that after a couple years of consistent and structured training a lot of people hit a plateau across the swim, bike and run. It takes a lot of work and hours to squeeze more gains out of the bike in particular and swim if you're an adult onset swimmer. This got me wondering what level of effort is required to simply maintain your gains? I know it will depend on the distance you are racing but is there a minimum level of training that will have you keep what you have? Or is it like most things and simply needs to be viewed on a case by case basis?

P.

MD1983

IMO its like as follows for me:

1. At the start training gains were large, as years pass the gains are less but they are still coming
2. i dont think my training volume has changed much over the last 4 years (maybe i do a bit less now with the child this year) but the intensity that i work at now in nearly all sessions is way above what it was at the beginning and in the earlier years, i dont recall the last easy session i did. every session is hard in its own way either through intensity or duration so there is not much time wasted
3. Up to the end of December 2016 from maybe August 2016 i did not much training and no structure at all (i tried to do an hour a day of run or bike but most was steady efforts), structure returned in January 2017 and after only 4 weeks training I did the Athy duathlon and in comparison to my Jan 2016 effort i think i was quicker (cant recall exactly) on a miserable wet day and beat a guy who beat me in the same race twice last year (him beating me by a decent margin in 2016 and me beating him by c10 secs in 2017 - cant read much into this as who knows how fit he was/is now)
4. so i think for me gains do keep coming, mainly on the bike, and it did not take too much training to get race fit again after a pretty low training level for 5 months

sconhome

pgibbo wrote: »

Maybe I'm way off the mark here but it appears to me that after a couple years of consistent and structured training a lot of people hit a plateau across the swim, bike and run. It takes a lot of work and hours to squeeze more gains out of the bike in particular and swim if you're an adult onset swimmer. This got me wondering what level of effort is required to simply maintain your gains? I know it will depend on the distance you are racing but is there a minimum level of training that will have you keep what you have? Or is it like most things and simply needs to be viewed on a case by case basis?

P.

Time to get yourself a TUE and go up a notch

tunney

Helps not having a second child.

mossym

second child, only time x+x =3x.

broadly in agreement with your post PG, but i think part of the problem is people become very attached to the training plan that got them where they are, for the very reason you say, it brought them big gains.it's not just in training i can't remember the name of the trend but we studied it during the MBA i did,young companies who become so reliant on the procedures that got them to where they are(which cen be very successful) that fear of changing hastens their doom. people are very reluctant to change something that is working.



my run sessions had been the same for the last few years, long run sunday, easy mondy, easy wednesday, intervals friday repeat. this year it all changed, wednesday became another interval day, most weeks harder than fridays. at first i thought it was madness, was going to complain to TMWTP, thought i'd get injured, thought the other sessions wold sufer, but then, i thought of this


and remembered something you said to me in Copenhagen or around then which was very true: for the amount of training you do how the hell are you so slow running. which was one of the more accurate observations i've gotten in a while. so i've rolled with it, and the improvement on the run has been immediate, no injuries(at thsi stage the run strength must be there anyway) and my easy/steady pace has moved up a gear , still no top end speed though


that's jsut an example though, an n=1 illustration. i've never read the book, been meaning to, but i saw this on an old bosses desk once and hte title has stuck with me since, a phrase i really believe in across everything in life



plus, in your circumstances, cut yourself a break. new baby, the added workloads of two kids, maintaining would be something to aim for for the next few months. 20 years time you'll look with pride at your kids, not the improvements you made in a 40km bike split in one season.

said to you before, i'm more impressed with the guys who work 50/60 hours a week, never miss time with their kids, and fit the 1 hour session into the only free hour they have of the day than i am with single folk who do 3 hours a day training and still have another 3 hours of free time . you scrimp and save your time to get the training in, and as much as we'd all love to improve, just holding what you;ve built up for a while is a win

mossym

oh, and that's totally not answering your question on how much minimum is needed. i;ev no idea on that, but i am interested to see the answers

pgibbo

I'll reply in more detail later but just a couple of things:

1. The constrained training has had me thinking about this and I'm fine with reduced hours of between 7 to 10 hours a week depending on how things are at home
2. I've noticed this trend based on my data for the last few years and also from people posting FTP & 400TT results on here over the last few years. Gains tend to be small unless you jump to hours that most married with kids folks don;t have available.

Or perhaps it's as mossy alluded to - different stimulus is required.

My reduced availability is what really drove the "what's the minimum required to hold what I have" However, I also believe that the other side of it is true for most people. Gains come fast with structure and consistency but level off and the next jump can be hard to achieve.

mossym

pgibbo wrote: »

My reduced availability is what really drove the "what's the minimum required to hold what I have" .

i suppose you could expand on this a bit, as i think the minimum will vary for different people over the 3 sports. pretty sure for example you could run a lot less than me and hold your run fitness, others can hop out of the pool for 6 months jump back in and swim close to the same pace.

figuring out where the focus needs to be is likely the challenge. reducing all by the same % is probably not the best approach.

and with kids being involved, the allowed times for training plays a huge factor as well.

pgibbo

Here's my n=1 graph from 2011/2012 to 2016 for 400TT & FTP



Gains on the bike came quicker than the swim. Given I swim solo without a coach on deck that's no big surprise.

pgibbo

mossym wrote: »

i suppose you could expand on this a bit, as i think the minimum will vary for different people over the 3 sports. pretty sure for example you could run a lot less than me and hold your run fitness, others can hop out of the pool for 6 months jump back in and swim close to the same pace.

figuring out where the focus needs to be is likely the challenge. reducing all by the same % is probably not the best approach.

and with kids being involved, the allowed times for training plays a huge factor as well.

I didn't really want to make this about me but given the examples you give I guess it all depends on peoples strengths and weaknesses

mossym

pgibbo wrote: »

I didn't really want to make this about me but given the examples you give I guess it all depends on peoples strengths and weaknesses

sorry, wasn't trying to make it about you, but it just served as a good example

at least you have one you could potentially look at


it's a good topic, one i'm definitely interested in.

pgibbo

mossym wrote: »

sorry, wasn't trying to make it about you, but it just served as a good example

at least you have one you could potentially look at


it's a good topic, one i'm definitely interested in.

One what?

Hard not to make it about me when I started the thread and very difficult to talk in the abstract about some of this stuff

peter kern

At my current weight class I read fatline for the title...
and i guess maybe 80% should read it the same way for the real thread title ;-)

mossym

pgibbo wrote: »

One what?

Hard not to make it about me when I started the thread and very difficult to talk in the abstract about some of this stuff

strength = running

some don't have one they can reduce more than the others. for them a flat reduction across all 3 and picking the key sessions probably works best. then it comes into frequency and duration questions, hard to get away from mileage for running, but 2 to 3 short swims might be enough to sustain, then it becomes a question whether 2 45 minute or 3 30 minute swims are easier for a person to do. same time, but much different load on the person in terms of commitment.

mossym

pgibbo wrote: »

Here's my n=1 graph from 2011/2012 to 2016 for 400TT & FTP



Gains on the bike came quicker than the swim. Given I swim solo without a coach on deck that's no big surprise.

graph not working btw

mossym

peter kern wrote: »

At my current weight class I read fatline for the title...
and i guess maybe 80% should read it the same way for the real thread title ;-)

i'd be very surprised if that's all the insight you had to offer to this topic peter, even at a high level(given an understanding you're running a business and can't divulge everything here )

pgibbo

mossym wrote: »

graph not working btw

Is this:



Maybe this

BTH

pgibbo wrote: »

Is this:

No.

mossym

the link works.

MalDoc

mossym wrote: »

said to you before, i'm more impressed with the guys who work 50/60 hours a week, never miss time with their kids, and fit the 1 hour session into the only free hour they have of the day than i am with single folk who do 3 hours a day training and still have another 3 hours of free time . you scrimp and save your time to get the training in, and as much as we'd all love to improve, just holding what you;ve built up for a while is a win

I'd have equal respect for both as you've described two driven individuals but I'd have questions....

Unless I was running my own business or working as a junior doctor, I'd be questioning how a 60 hour work week has become the norm. Fine for short periods but generally productivity starts to slip after 8 hours and you're not going to get the same benefit from a session as someone who's fresh. Similarly, a hard session affects productivity and you begin the following day worse than the previous.

What in the name of God do you need three hours free time a day for!?!? Get back on the bike!

peter kern

mossym wrote: »

oh, and that's totally not answering your question on how much minimum is needed. i;ev no idea on that, but i am interested to see the answers

maintance
generally the rule of thumb would be you keep one sport going and then it will be easy to go back (ideally running which gives the best bang for the buck, and a bit of swimming)

so with 10 hours 6 hours runing 2.5 hour swimmng 1.5 cycling
or 4.5 1.5 1 would get you ready for everthing in the future and you could shave of half an hour of each sport. and that should help you to maintain a good base level.

re flatlining i think to be honest talent is a factor. and recovery time.
and then traiing, of course trainig structure is important but at the same time the shorter the distance the more talent you need.
and without enough recovery time its tough and often i do recomend single sport for time crunched athletes.
It might be cool to have 3 kids work 60 hours and train for an ironman and train the 1 hour you have time but unless you have super talent, its in my mind a bit silly to bang your head against a wall ( of course some people can train well with 5 hours sleep but most people cant )
i call it more dilusional for 80 % of ahtletes and for the people that wokrs they have usualy been excellent athtletes as kids.
those people i would alwyas tell rahter do one sport , rather than being super medicore at all 3 .


I had a look the other day at the guy that won Naas duathlon last sunday run something like a 4.26 marathon 2010 i think it was so you would hardly say this guy is stagnating when you follow his progress. so n a way the intial statement that after 1-2 years people flatline is not really right

then look at zico rather than complaining he kept trainig year after year and every year he gets a tiny bit better. and while this is quite understadable for runing its not that easy for swimming or running and being stubborn helps
same for bmcs swiming flatlined for many years swimmng and last year made a jump.
one big reason of flatlining is not getting enough rest you can only burn the candle at one end. but if you dont get enough rest you usually have 1-2 good years but then one burnes out, they burn out then motivation suffers and they give in.

I would also try to make sure athletes wait a bit to have those 2 years i have one athlete who i think can be very good in 4 years time this year and next year i certainly dont look for max improvement. I am looking to the the basics right and we usually do every week 1 or 2 technique sessions
with another guy that had flatlined and was very good a few years ago its similar we are taking the run completly apart I am trying to change the swim technique a bit ( iam not sure if that will work as i only see that guy 7 hours every 4 weeks. but again my goal is not max improvement this year, even though the run is starting to improve its more like run to walk before you run.
and thats the thing if you swimm ****ty of course you are going to flatline earlier.
can training make a change the Kilkee course record holder ( gavin n) when he changed coach in 2010 or so suddently improve 40 or so sec in a short time over 10 k and that was after running many years.
so a little brainstorm at the end of the day its a super complex subject and is very individual and sometimes you have to keep going and do the same thing again and it will work and sometimes you have to change.

and i guess the key points
are
talent
rest
get the basics right
hurry slowly ( organic growth rather than using the sledge hammer something I have learned over the years of coaching)
and a good training structure

and running wise I cant think of a bigger one than weight loss ....

mossym

MalDoc wrote: »

I'd have equal respect for both as you've described two driven individuals but I'd have questions....

Unless I was running my own business or working as a junior doctor, I'd be questioning how a 60 hour work week has become the norm. Fine for short periods but generally productivity starts to slip after 8 hours and you're not going to get the same benefit from a session as someone who's fresh. Similarly, a hard session affects productivity and you begin the following day worse than the previous.

What in the name of God do you need three hours free time a day for!?!? Get back on the bike!

more respect for one doesn't mean little or no respect for the other.

start your day with calls to asia, finish it with calls to the US and time differences make long days a regular happening. add on 2 kids to that and believe me i don't have 3 extra free hours a day after training

tunney

MalDoc wrote: »

I'd have equal respect for both as you've described two driven individuals but I'd have questions....

Unless I was running my own business or working as a junior doctor, I'd be questioning how a 60 hour work week has become the norm. Fine for short periods but generally productivity starts to slip after 8 hours and you're not going to get the same benefit from a session as someone who's fresh. Similarly, a hard session affects productivity and you begin the following day worse than the previous.

What in the name of God do you need three hours free time a day for!?!? Get back on the bike!

50-60 hour weeks are a fact of life in some industries and at some levels. Part of the job. When I was younger I would have thought he same as you.

hf4z6sqo7vjngi

tunney wrote: »

50-60 hour weeks are a fact of life in some industries and at some levels. Part of the job. When I was younger I would have thought he same as you.

Unless you are in the public sector.....

I would consider YOY marginal improvements a success for someone with a busy life outside of tri

peter kern

Daniella CoolS Machine wrote: »

Unless you are in the public sector.....

I would consider YOY marginal improvements a success for someone with a busy life outside of tri

of course one has to agree with that. at the end of the day doing something to stay fit is a huge success .


BMc has a tandem and goes out with kids i belive so you can train with kids to you just have to think a bit.

I can never undestand why people who live in blanchertstown etc would not want to cycle to work and save time and get fit ...



there is still a few people that do very well with super busy live styles
sam gyde build a few companies and is a multi milioner
damien angus woks a serious corparate job and has with kids
both won kona age group
rachel joyce was in that group when she started triathlon ( law firm )
meridith kessler
sarah pampino both investment banking.
I guess at the end of the day the cream does rise to the top ...
this alveres guy from mexico has done 100 ironman and is ceo of a multi bilion company

peter kern

tunney wrote: »

50-60 hour weeks are a fact of life in some industries and at some levels. Part of the job. When I was younger I would have thought he same as you.

but when were you happier ...
when you had time to train and still were not poor .
or when you can watch your bank account and the scale go up every month ...

mossym

peter kern wrote: »

but when were you happier ...
when you had time to train and still were not poor .
or when you can watch your bank account and the scale go up every month ...

unfortunately it's irrelevant. even if you are happier working less hours and getting paid less, any private company i've seen expects output and responsibility to increase with seniority (tenure, not rank). companies move out those that don't progress as it's cheaper to hire a new grad who will.

so while i agree in part with your argument that those time pressed shouldn't go long Peter, it takes on a different angle when scaling back the work hours isn't an option, some judge performance on return for training time, not absolute performance.

which i think relates back to gibbo's original question, which i read as a desire for continued self improvement. may be wrong there though

it would be nice to have a protected job where work can take back seat for a few months prior , but it's not always the case

peter kern

which i read as a desire for continued self improvement



i guess the secret of self improvement is to be happier with less.

mossym

peter kern wrote: »

i guess the secret of self improvement is to be happier with less.

which i guess brings us full circle to gibbo's original question, how to hold what you have with a lot less time so you can be happy

peter kern

and here the main question is how do you approach it from the start.

and i think we only have to look at junior sports the one that already go flat out at 13 ( usually pushed by parents ) usually burn out before they make it to the senior ranks and the ones that train within themsleves as juniors tend to have a longer livespan and tend to go further in the sport .

its fantasticly rare that athletes win a junior ,under 23 and senoir world title ( the brownlees and i think 2 more atletes have done that in tri )
so that kind of shoes us if you want flatline later the more you built a base before you really go for it usualy the further you go.
which is why would always tell people to wait with doing an ironman before they are ready and built their base. and then you use those 1 or 2 years when you are ready but have a base to improve,

bit like in a race you start too quick you usually finish slower.
and one tends to be happier with a stronger finish than a strong start and dying at the end .


and then the longer you have built your base the easier it is to maintain a solid level
easy come easy go ....

on firday i spoke to a guy that has done the Ras 8 times now for quite a few years he says he is lucky if he does 50 k on the bike a week with kids and work
he still does very well in duathlons ( and still is super skinny so he still runs well on little running)

if you have only trained 3 years and are not at prime weight you will lose the ganes form 1 or 2 hard years quicker and if your biomechanics is poor and then you try to do killer sesions in the little time you have than we see people spend more time with the man with the tan....

peter kern

mossym wrote: »

which i guess brings us full circle to gibbo's original question, how to hold what you have with a lot less time so you can be happy

http://www.bento.de/sport/nordische-skiweltmeisterschaften-teilnehmer-aus-venezuela-steht-zum-ersten-mal-auf-skiern-1211043/#refsponi

that guy looks happy at the end ;-)

( watch the video a bit down the text)

RJM85

mossym wrote: »

unfortunately it's irrelevant. even if you are happier working less hours and getting paid less, any private company i've seen expects output and responsibility to increase with seniority (tenure, not rank). companies move out those that don't progress as it's cheaper to hire a new grad who will.

Working 50/60 hours a week is still a choice. Working in an industry where that is the norm is a choice as well. There are plenty of 50 year olds across many walks of life that work 9-5 (or less) and no more.

shotgunmcos

mossym wrote: »

which i guess brings us full circle to gibbo's original question, how to hold what you have with a lot less time so you can be happy

Reduce your expectations. You cannot "hold on to" the levels of where you were at 4,5,6 sessions a week with just a single session per week. Instead of maintaining what you think you should be maintaining, maintain what you are now. Never know, you might pleasantly surprise yourself at times!

EC1000

I think this thread could also be used as the answer to the question "why do so many people disappear from triathlon as quickly as they appear in the first place".... triathlon is a different beast from pure running or other single sports in that there is a relatively high training load required to even become average. Conversely, you can run very well off 7 or 8 hours per week.

MalDoc

mossym wrote: »

more respect for one doesn't mean little or no respect for the other.

start your day with calls to asia, finish it with calls to the US and time differences make long days a regular happening. add on 2 kids to that and believe me i don't have 3 extra free hours a day after training

Sorry, I wasn't trying to imply you had little or no respect for one.

That's a difficult schedule without kids.
Fair dues for getting anything done.
Without getting too personal or straying too far from the original topic, are we talking daily calls or once/twice a week?
The latter I had to tolerate for a few months but there was always an end in sight so manageable.
It's unreasonable for any company to expect that for prolonged periods in my opinion.

MalDoc

tunney wrote: »

50-60 hour weeks are a fact of life in some industries and at some levels. Part of the job. When I was younger I would have thought he same as you.

It's definitely a culture in some companies, no denying that. I think the first 6 months in any role though dictates what becomes normal.
If you set out your stall early, make lunchtime your own, leave on time on a Friday etc., people accept it.
It's very hard reverse it if you start with long hours.

mossym

RJM85 wrote: »

Working 50/60 hours a week is still a choice. Working in an industry where that is the norm is a choice as well. There are plenty of 50 year olds across many walks of life that work 9-5 (or less) and no more.

yup, of course there are. just like there are plenty of 50 year olds who work longer hours too, and lots of 23 year olds who do too. the choice of industry is always yours, the choice of hours necessary for that industry often isn't. if a guard/nurse/ambulance river came in saying they were struggling with training cause he had to work nights regularly would the advice be to only work 9 to 5?

saying a job requires 50 to 60 hours doesn't necessarily mean that's a complaint. i left the job that requires that a year ago. now i'm back. if i hated it that much i wouldn;t have come back. the 50/60 hours came up as part of the discussion on time limits on training.
at the end of the day, without offending anyone intentionally, no-one on here can really say traithlon is more than a hobby. it's a fairly invasive hobby in how it can affect your lifestyle, but no-one here is going pro so a living has to be made, if that is a choice to work in an industry that demands 50 to 70 hours work and the person is happy to do it, and the priorities put kids/family and job ahead of triathlon, that doesn't mean they don't want to take the available time they have to train and use it as efficiently as possible.

MalDoc wrote: »

Sorry, I wasn't trying to imply you had little or no respect for one.

That's a difficult schedule without kids.
Fair dues for getting anything done.
Without getting too personal or straying too far from the original topic, are we talking daily calls or once/twice a week?
The latter I had to tolerate for a few months but there was always an end in sight so manageable.
It's unreasonable for any company to expect that for prolonged periods in my opinion.

how many companies have you worked for? in what industries? we're getting off topic here, but early morning calls/late evening calls, travelling for a week once a month or more is pretty standard in most of the industries I've worked across, we get fairly lucky in Europe, we're the middle time zone, the japan and china guys i work with get shafted as any call with the US tends to be 0 or 11 at night for them

some of the calls are weekly, some are impromptu. if i can do a call at 9pm but that means i can bring my little one swimming at 6pm before she goes to bed and then do the call that's an easy choice.

MalDoc wrote: »

It's definitely a culture in some companies, no denying that. I think the first 6 months in any role though dictates what becomes normal.
If you set out your stall early, make lunchtime your own, leave on time on a Friday etc., people accept it.
It's very hard reverse it if you start with long hours.

that is a very role, company and sector dependent set of statements. may be true for some, but far from realistic to a lot . anyone dealing with global markets, has, out of necessity, to be dealing with each market.


any time i've seen time crunched training being discussed before it's gone the same way as this one. person says i only have x amount of time to train. everyone dissects their lifestyle to find them more time. it's like the only solution to how to train more effectively is to train more. the answer to how do i prove in x can usually be train more. the answer to the question how do i train best without training more cannot be train more.

and its not even really getting to gibbo's question about accepting no improvement but what do you need to just to stand still. especially given the plateau affect he described where a big increase may be required to change things. if the time jsut isn't there for that, pulling apart someones day to find the time isn't always the answer

shotgun and peter have made very valid statements about setting your expectations properly, which make a lot of sense.

shotgunmcos

This is a good thread and some interesting stuff in it. Lets bring it back to maintenance then.


Maintenance for a level of run fitness?
Maintenance for a level of swim fitness?
Maintenance for a level of bike fitness?
Maintenance for a level of race performance?
Maintenance for a level of core strength?


How much of a base do you need for each of these? Does swimming require less of a base and more technical competence? Does the thousands of bike/run kms banked stand to you when you need to drop it to once a week?


Thing about when you consider maintenance is that you are "maintaining" a reduced volume as apposed to effort. In my case and I guess with most, this also entails weight gain. So is that also up for discussion?


If you kill X% of volume, do you make suitable adjustments to eating habilts?

sconhome

I would also throw in a thought about the muscle memory aspect. Or possibly a mental aspect.

Years of structured training has to have a long term effect on the body - it has gradually raised the threshold for what the body can accomplish to a level over time that can with relative ease be reachieved. I'm thinking of a form of battery memory except in reverse.

A long term trained body can break for much longer than someone who has only a short period of training and reattain the level of fitness relatively quickly. As I mention this *may* be more of a mental thing than necessarily physiological. With this in mind I believe it will take far less than anticipated for the body to maintain a level of fitness from which you can spring back via an intensive period.

At this stage I've guessing Gibbo could cut training volume by 50% for a few months and lose far less fitness (likely lose some sharpness and power) than expected. The break may even be conducive to a rebound when training stimuli are reintroduced leading to that marginal gain.

hf4z6sqo7vjngi

This thread has slightly gone OT but its a decent discussion and there has not been many around here for a while.

Very compartmentalized below but you get the idea of a typical week.
168hrs in a week
49hrs sleeping (assuming 7hrs a day to stay healthy)
70hrs working
20hrs studying (rising to 30hrs from Sept with lectures)
8hrs - kids football training/matches, swimming, athletics, girl guides activities (this time frees up over Summer)
21hrs for family fun/relaxation/limited exercise

I am assuming many would be in a similar position (maybe not) the question is would you really want to give up half the 21hrs to train or do something more with that time that fits into life priorities. BTW the above is a conscious choice i have made and not for everyone, it's one of the main reasons i have taken a step back from the sport for a few years.

I had misplaced ideas on KQ 6 years ago especially when i am not naturally gifted nor can i afford to train 20hr+ weeks consistently for the year (i believe this type of commitment is generally needed) Am i bitter about it, no, am i happy with my final year and the results, yes it was enjoyable.

Set your expectations and base them on reality, above all be happy with those expectations or turn your energy elsewhere. Burning the candle at both ends will lead to sub standard results and a lack of enjoyment.

Macy0161

I'm coming into year 2 to the sport (with no significant background in any discipline), but following this thread with interest as I'm finding work/ life/ training balance hard enough to balance, and that's as definite middle of the pack fodder. Recently been reassessing my goals for the year to try and be more realistic in my ambitions in light of all that.

To follow up on what EC1000 said - a change of job/ location, and I think I would have to consider concentrating on one discipline/ sport - I have great access to a pool/ gym, showers in work, run routes etc, which really contributes to managing the balance at the moment being honest. I'm not good enough/ committed enough to make work choices purely on that.

I definitely have been neglecting core work, and really going to have to swap out a run and/or bike session for that, as getting regular niggles from running that can be tied back to core/ glutes/ hips weaknesses. It's just another consideration I'm having to make.

mossym

Macy0161 wrote: »

To follow up on what EC1000 said - a change of job/ location, and I think I would have to consider concentrating on one discipline/ sport - I have great access to a pool/ gym, showers in work, run routes etc, which really contributes to managing the balance at the moment being honest. I'm not good enough/ committed enough to make work choices purely on that.

.

don't underestimate how useful this is. dedication when the training facilities are easy and fit neatly into your schedule is easy. when they are not you can figure out how dedicated you really are. up until december 2015 i could swim every rmoning before work, run at lunch and shower+eat afterwards. , and although the long hours were there i had those two slots for traning

2016 i moved to a job where i couldn't swmn in the mornings any more, was gone before 7, home after 7, no showers at work so running was difficult at best, impossible at times, so often 7pm was the first slot i had available to train and i might still have a run and swim to do. suffice to say i missed more sessions last eyar than i did in the 3 years before that combined. not the best leadin to my first IM by any means.

i'm not back at the first job, and even though i've still got long hours it's a lot more managable, i can swim pre work, run at lunch again, and the number of missed sessions has dropped back again. i don't think i would be putting in another year like i did last year, in fact i know i wouldn't.

training played no part in myu decision to move back, i'd probably have done it if stopping training was one of the conditions, luckily it didn't come to that . but sometimes what we overread our dedication in getting the training done when in reality it's because the training slots/availability work out in an easy way

Macy0161

mossym wrote: »

don't underestimate how useful this is. dedication when the training facilities are easy and fit neatly into your schedule is easy. when they are not you can figure out how dedicated you really are. up until december 2015 i could swim every rmoning before work, run at lunch and shower+eat afterwards. , and although the long hours were there i had those two slots for traning

Oh I definitely appreciate it. I'd go as far as to say I wouldn't fit the swimming in, and therefore triathlon, without the easy pool access. It's kinda a win win - I beat the traffic, get the session in, with zero family impact.

I think I could incorporate time on the bike (albeit less "training") and running into commuting, but I'd struggle to fit in swimming.

griffin100

mossym wrote: »

don't underestimate how useful this is. dedication when the training facilities are easy and fit neatly into your schedule is easy. when they are not you can figure out how dedicated you really are. up until december 2015 i could swim every rmoning before work, run at lunch and shower+eat afterwards. , and although the long hours were there i had those two slots for traning

2016 i moved to a job where i couldn't swmn in the mornings any more, was gone before 7, home after 7, no showers at work so running was difficult at best, impossible at times, so often 7pm was the first slot i had available to train and i might still have a run and swim to do. suffice to say i missed more sessions last eyar than i did in the 3 years before that combined. not the best leadin to my first IM by any means.

i'm not back at the first job, and even though i've still got long hours it's a lot more managable, i can swim pre work, run at lunch again, and the number of missed sessions has dropped back again. i don't think i would be putting in another year like i did last year, in fact i know i wouldn't.

training played no part in myu decision to move back, i'd probably have done it if stopping training was one of the conditions, luckily it didn't come to that . but sometimes what we overread our dedication in getting the training done when in reality it's because the training slots/availability work out in an easy way

I recently turned down a new job and one of the deciding factors was that I couldn't make it work swim wise. There were no opportunities for swimming before or after work due to the location. That might sound daft but being able to swim is important to me and not just from a fitness perspective, it's also important mentally. I find it's a great release and because my kids swim I can link in with their racing.

mossym

griffin100 wrote: »

I recently turned down a new job and one of the deciding factors was that I couldn't make it work swim wise. There were no opportunities for swimming before or after work due to the location. That might sound daft but being able to swim is important to me and not just from a fitness perspective, it's also important mentally. I find it's a great release and because my kids swim I can link in with their racing.

i'd have felt the same if you weren't allowed make your own coffee.:)

it was never going to come to no training in fairness. but there is a big difference between proper structured 3 sports training (well 1 sport 3 legs) and doing teh past times you love. i'd have given up the structured stuff for better family life, i wouldn't have stepped back from the sports completely

it's a hugely individual choice, what you are willing to give up, what the priorities are, what gets cut and what is vital.

mossym

shotgunmcos wrote: »

This is a good thread and some interesting stuff in it. Lets bring it back to maintenance then.


Maintenance for a level of run fitness?
Maintenance for a level of swim fitness?
Maintenance for a level of bike fitness?
Maintenance for a level of race performance?
Maintenance for a level of core strength?


How much of a base do you need for each of these? Does swimming require less of a base and more technical competence? Does the thousands of bike/run kms banked stand to you when you need to drop it to once a week?


Thing about when you consider maintenance is that you are "maintaining" a reduced volume as apposed to effort. In my case and I guess with most, this also entails weight gain. So is that also up for discussion?


If you kill X% of volume, do you make suitable adjustments to eating habilts?

this is getting lost in the noise again, and it's teh most useful post in a while. the bit about weight gain i hadn't even thought of. i can quite easily gain weight while full training without overdoing it too bad on poor food. reduced training would make it incredibly hard to hit reasonable weight. however stricter diet is a more time/effort managable sacrifice than training time

peter kern

this would be very different for gibbo than it would be for tango
the only additional point i would make is that you dont have to seperate it into 5 points as race performance and core strenght mainatnace can be integrated in the training for most people.
I would say fundamentaly mainatance is aoubt 2 sports runing for fintess and working on your weakest sport.


and of course weight dicipline is key.

the problem whith this thread is since tri is one sport thats made of 3 sports you cant really write a blueprint what should be done
for manintance there is only a few
facts
runing gives you the best bang for value
and kind of try to work on your weakness .
cycling is the sport one usually builts up the fastest so that usally can be negelcted the most .
and with swiming the one thing i do realise if people learn to swim proper from the beginning thats a big plus( even if its in the late 40s ) . iam not talking drills per se but stroke awarenss . to get an understanding what you are supposed to do.

and about efficney of training get a really good coach and at a certain level of senority working 70 hours you should be able to spend big money on it you really want to be efficient...
and for 50 euro a month you wont get a good coach ....
you wont even get a good prescriber.
and to be fair when it comes to trainig with little hours ( like him or not, and i happen to not like him ) but matt dixsons approach certainly is one of the better ones in that area ,bellow the full Ironman.
and of curse some people can have the best coach in the world and they still wont get good ....

shotgunmcos wrote: »

This is a good thread and some interesting stuff in it. Lets bring it back to maintenance then.


Maintenance for a level of run fitness?
Maintenance for a level of swim fitness?
Maintenance for a level of bike fitness?
Maintenance for a level of race performance?
Maintenance for a level of core strength?


How much of a base do you need for each of these? Does swimming require less of a base and more technical competence? Does the thousands of bike/run kms banked stand to you when you need to drop it to once a week?


Thing about when you consider maintenance is that you are "maintaining" a reduced volume as apposed to effort. In my case and I guess with most, this also entails weight gain. So is that also up for discussion?


If you kill X% of volume, do you make suitable adjustments to eating habilts?

shotgunmcos

So, on maintenance. I always wondered how Tango could smash out Shark times off of one swim a week?! I figured childhood learners sub 20 1500 swim types just never quite lose it. I also made the assumption that an adult learner had to keep it up or lose it, akin to learning a new language.

I’m one of the former. From 2010-2013 I swam about as much as your average AG triathlete. 3 times a week etc... My 6 month volume leading up to an IM would typically be 230km pool and 30km OW or 80 total swims (3.3k average session). 2014-2015 no triathlons and maybe a single 3k swim session every week or two. Last year the 6 months leading up to Challenge Galway was just 46k pool, no OW and about 22 swims (2k average session) but the swim went better than expected.
My CSS (Threshold) pace when fit was about 1:31-1:33 and I swam 58-60 for the earlier IMs.

June last year I smashed my shoulder and that all but put an end to the year (bar a little race with teammates in August). Zero swimming. I only got back in the pool in January and have completed 4 swims. The first one was just trying not to drown, then the next 3 (numbers below) were a short 1.8k session. The times are nothing to write home about but I honestly thought that given the lack of volume over 3 years culminating in 6 months complete absence, I would need to learn to swim again. I was happy just to be swimming a short set!

Thing is, although I was red faced at the end of the sets 1) There is a small average improvement in just 3 swims and 2) The average pace is 1:35-1:42, not a million miles from my peak fitness CSS.

Compared with running (an equal story of absence) this is much closer to when I was fit. Running base aerobic pace has dropped from 4:40-4:50 to 5:55-6:05!! That’s a whopping difference.

I am comparing swim threshold base and run base pace but it’s relatively the same basis of comparison. I just seem to have slipped much more with running than swimming. Odd, since I have been running longer and more often?!

Do you lose running fitness faster than swimming? Is the 8-10kg weight gain the real factor with the slower running as it hardly effects swimming? In terms of maintenance I actually feel like 1 swim a week will keep me both sane and able to ramp up quickly if needed. 1 run a week (my average this year) is getting me nowhere, backwards if anything!



Swimming 2x4, 2x2, 4x1 w/60, 30, 15s rests

23/1
2x400 in 7:11, 6:54
3x200 in 3:22, 3:31, 3:18
4x100 in 1:37, 1:39, 1:36, 1:36

15/2
2x400 in 6:56, 6:23
3x200 in 3:07, 3:12, 3:14
4x100 in 1:34, 1:35, 1:38, 1:36

20/2
2x400 in 6:39, 6:31
3x200 in 3:12, 3:13, 3:18
4x100 in 1:33, 1:36, 1:36, 1:34

sconhome

Running is definitely all factoring on the weight. Watch the trend as you lose weight, those paces will just tumble far quicker than just aerobic improvements.

At least that's what I'm praying for myself!!

iAcesHigh

I wanted to engage a bit earlier, but it has to do with a bit of a lack of time so getting the training in always seemed to prevail First and foremost, I think the approach suggested is wrong. While I really love this hobby of ours, it's just one part of our life and while it might mean more or less for any of us I would think that for most their job (so something that also pays for this hobby) and family life are more important than any hobby. That being said, I think the question shouldn't be "how much can I get away to flatline", but "how can I make the most of time I have available/am willing to spend on tri". Triathlon is one of the best hobbies one can have IMO, it keeps you decently healthy, gives you goals outside of regular "boring" life goals, takes your mind of regular stuff and is quite engaging making people more self aware, semiconscious and confident, but at the same time isn't something that pays the bills for most of us and just rarely provides moments to remember (95+% of your trainings you won't remember in 2 years time) - although really engaging I also have to constantly remind myself of that, especially when I see some new toys available out there........

When it comes to getting the most out time available I always thought core and stretching can be incorporated in day-to-day life so I never included that in "tri planning". I would also agree that running is hardest to come back to which is why I would keep up with most of my running sessions. While cycling is definitely not my strong point, far from it, if needed this seems to be the easiest one to "power train for" meaning you can simply invest xy hours and get a really decent improvement no matter how long you haven't done it. That being said, since cycling is big part of any Tri race I would still try to get 2 shorter sessions per week on most weeks and make a monthly goal to go out for 3+ hours if possible. Swimming is probably quite similar to cycling in a sense you get back fairly quickly since it's quite technical one so I would go at it whenever possible, if even for up to 30 mins. It will help you retain technique while it's also a fantastic cross-train for running part

Kurt.Godel

pgibbo wrote: »

It takes a lot of work and hours to squeeze more gains out of the bike in particular and swim if you're an adult onset swimmer.

My 2c on the swim...

The vast majority of triathlete adult onset swimmers don't need any more hours to improve their swimming dramatically. If three hours a week are all you have available for swimming, make the most of them. Instead of equating improvement with distance/volume (as you might correctly do for the bike/run), you'd be better off with sets of three structured hours as follows:

1. Short fast intervals (50-100m sprints), including a lot of flat out stuff.
2. Drills, done at a comfortable pace with an emphasis towards swimming as streamline and long as possible.
3. Medium distance intervals (100m-400m), holding good form throughout.

Throw in the odd 1,500 or IM TT if you like, but in general stay away from long steady swims. Swimming is a very technical sport- power and strength will only take you so far, the real benefit is in using that power while working with the water. Swimming fast will teach you that you need good form to swim fast. If you can learn good form over shorter sets, you'll easily swim a lot faster during distance races.

With one or two exceptions, anyone on this forum who is plateauing in their swim times doesn't need extra hours or work to dramatically improve, they need to study how to swim. I watched Amy Wolfe swim a 19:27 1,500 at the weekend, and she didn't even look like she was working, hardly causing a splash while slower swimmers around her looked like they were putting in a lot more effort. If you can get to any of the high performance pools, watch how the HP guys swim. Ditto kids galas, they are an education in themselves. When you see a skinny 12-year old girl swimming close to 5 mins for a 400 free, you start to realise just how much poor technique is causing that flatline.