What's the money like?

Hollister11

I'm studying computer science in college, a d from job adds I see you earn nice money (80-100K) after 6ish years as a developer.

People keep telling the wages aren't great in the industry. Which I think is a lie.

What is the money like?

JoeyPeeps

Some of the richest people on earth studied computer science. It you're an entrepreneur you can make billions.

counterpointaud

Hollister11 wrote: »

a d from job adds I see you earn nice money (80-100K) after 6ish years as a developer.

It sounds about right, if you have an aptitude for it, and have 6 years of experience and learning, as opposed doing the same thing 6 years in a row. You may need to move jobs regularly to avoid this.

mightyreds

Probably looking at 33-39k straight from college more the low end though, after 3 years 50-55k mark, then depending you could hit the 80-100k after 6

14ned

Hollister11 wrote: »

I'm studying computer science in college, a d from job adds I see you earn nice money (80-100K) after 6ish years as a developer.

People keep telling the wages aren't great in the industry. Which I think is a lie.

What is the money like?

If you are very lucky to land a perfect job straight after graduation, are willing to relocate as far as it necessary to secure the maximum CV building role, change up your job at exactly the right moment during your career at least twice, and train every hour outside of work available to you to maximise your skillset, then you have a good chance of hitting 70-80k after 6ish years. If you're human and/or have a life and/or are not amazingly lucky all the time, it usually takes a few years longer.

It certainly should be the case that you will reach 60-80k by ten years after graduation if you've done everything right and were reasonably fortunate. Getting significantly past 80k definitely requires specialisation into some niche skillset, or going into contracting. Both increase risk and thence reward for you if things pan out.

When people say wages aren't great, they're referring to the median wage. There is a top 10% who earn big bucks. Then there's the rest. Most don't reach top 10% earning power at any point in their career, and languish down around the 40-60k mark.

As I've often said on here, such levels of low pay make a lot of sense if you live far away from Cork or Dublin and your job is undemanding and treats you very nicely. I would never underrate a great employer, they're easily worth a few 10k a year and you can lop 30k/year off to not live in a major urban centre and you'll still be earning more after unavoidable expenses.

Niall

Elemonator

The good ones make that. Breaking into management usually helps also.

Best of fortune with it OP!

Elessar

In my experience it depends on the skillset and how in demand it is at the time. If its fairly niche or in high demand, you can expect good wages fairly quickly with a bit of experience. E.g. ERP specialist/developer can earn 65-75k+ within 5 years, management 100k. BI developers 70-80k easily with 5 years. Specialist development even more. I know a dev from the EU working as a contractor on a fairly new/niche platform, he came here with just 2 years experience and was on €550/day. He was soon offered permanency of at least 70-80k (turned it down). In fairness, he was very good. Also know a DBA with 6 years exp leave for 80k recently, job offered to match it + 10%. He's now 100k+.

Then again I know one really good developer (knowledgeable person) with about 12 years experience working for 55k. So you really need to know your worth, and push to get it. I've often seen that being seen to know what you're talking about, moreso than actually knowing what you're talking about, is worth a lot more in terms of renumeration at the end of the day.

BrokenArrows

Hollister11 wrote: »

I'm studying computer science in college, a d from job adds I see you earn nice money (80-100K) after 6ish years as a developer.

People keep telling the wages aren't great in the industry. Which I think is a lie.

What is the money like?

As an average, nothing special developer you can earn a reasonable salary after a couple of years experience.
If you put the time and effort in to become a great developer then the salary is great.
If you put in even more time and are constantly up to date on the latest technology and have a varied multi language skill set over the fullstack then more money again. In the real world the technology is constantly changing and if you stagnate in your role and are not learning new skills then you will be quickly out of touch with the job market.

If you are financially, mathematically and computer minded and have the necessary qualifications backing you then you can make a mint becoming a Quantitative Developer which specialises in financial algorithms etc. These pay alot and come with huge bonuses. But you tend to need to live in financial hubs eg. London.

The real money is obviously in starting your own business but its quite easy to at least have a side business which creates you some additional income. Either creating your own software or contracting for others in your spare time.

The key to making big money is to constantly keep up to date with the latest technology and to change jobs every few years (unless you're in a rare position where your employer is giving you good raises every 2 years 10+%). A mistake ive made. You need to fight for raises and salary reviews, if it doesnt happen then just move on.

14ned

BrokenArrows wrote: »

The key to making big money is to constantly keep up to date with the latest technology and to change jobs every few years (unless you're in a rare position where your employer is giving you good raises every 2 years 10+%). A mistake ive made. You need to fight for raises and salary reviews, if it doesnt happen then just move on.

This is indeed very important, and hugely underappreciated. I've refused contract extensions because they refused point blank to consider any rate bump after a year. My argument was that replacing me will easily cost 25%+ of my annual cost in terms of recruiter fees and interview overhead and disruption, so I ask for a very reasonable barely double digit increase. When they point blank refused to even consider it, and made it into a "take your existing rate or leave" situation, it was clearly time to leave.

As much as I prefer to depart a completely satisfied client where I've done myself out of a job through customer satisfaction, the next least worst form of parting ways is over rate of pay. In fact in the past I've even seen one's estimation in the mind of the client rise because you left over pay. And always remember the long game, if you leave an employer over pay and they then come to think of you especially highly, you may well find yourself rehired by that employer in years to come at a much higher rate again. Hence never burn your bridges!

Niall

CreepingDeath

Hollister11 wrote: »

I see you earn nice money (80-100K) after 6ish years as a developer.

Contractors probably could if they had the skillset and experience a company wanted, but I'd say it's pretty rare for permanent staff with only 6 years experience.

Larger multinational companies will always try to keep wage inflation down, offering you 5% per year if you're lucky. So either you have a stellar performance, job hop or threaten to leave to get larger raises.

More than likely you need to make strategic job hops every year or two to
get that from a permanent position. And job hopping early on (not too often) gives you a good range of experience.

Very senior engineers get anywhere from €65-90k these days.
Principal engineers/architects would get higher.

InTheAttic

BrokenArrows wrote: »

As an average, nothing special developer you can earn a reasonable salary after a couple of years experience.
If you put the time and effort in to become a great developer then the salary is great.
If you put in even more time and are constantly up to date on the latest technology and have a varied multi language skill set over the fullstack then more money again. In the real world the technology is constantly changing and if you stagnate in your role and are not learning new skills then you will be quickly out of touch with the job market.

If you are financially, mathematically and computer minded and have the necessary qualifications backing you then you can make a mint becoming a Quantitative Developer which specialises in financial algorithms etc. These pay alot and come with huge bonuses. But you tend to need to live in financial hubs eg. London.

The real money is obviously in starting your own business but its quite easy to at least have a side business which creates you some additional income. Either creating your own software or contracting for others in your spare time.

The key to making big money is to constantly keep up to date with the latest technology and to change jobs every few years (unless you're in a rare position where your employer is giving you good raises every 2 years 10+%). A mistake ive made. You need to fight for raises and salary reviews, if it doesnt happen then just move on.

The nail on the head! You left out one detail however. It's a very stressful job, unless perhaps you are building in-house software say in the public sector. Yes, I'm a software developer with several years experience.

InTheAttic

CreepingDeath wrote: »

Contractors probably could if they had the skillset and experience a company wanted, but I'd say it's pretty rare for permanent staff with only 6 years experience.

Larger multinational companies will always try to keep wage inflation down, offering you 5% per year if you're lucky. So either you have a stellar performance, job hop or threaten to leave to get larger raises.

More than likely you need to make strategic job hops every year or two to
get that from a permanent position. And job hopping early on (not too often) gives you a good range of experience.

Very senior engineers get anywhere from €65-90k these days.
Principal engineers/architects would get higher.

I'm on the job hunt at the monent and your first point above resonates with what I've been told about the market at the moment. 7 years+ is more like it and people cannot go into this industry with rose tinted glasses on - a senior developer role is quite soft-skills based. You spend more time in meetings / working on estimations / designs / planning / test plans / troubleshooting / mentoring / ... etc writing code is more of a secondary role. I believe in this industry that it's ok to job hop to get more experience. Does anyone else agree?

14ned

InTheAttic wrote: »

I'm on the job hunt at the monent and your first point above resonates with what I've been told about the market at the moment. 7 years+ is more like it and people cannot go into this industry with rose tinted glasses on - a senior developer role is quite soft-skills based. You spend more time in meetings / working on estimations / designs / planning / test plans / troubleshooting / mentoring / ... etc writing code is more of a secondary role. I believe in this industry that it's ok to job hop to get more experience. Does anyone else agree?

Some would say that senior developers waste more time in meetings etc but it depends on the type of employer. If the employer is a large multi with lots of junior programmers, they'll tend to have the senior folk spend more time doing code review and assigning work to junior programmers which inevitably means more meetings. If the employer is a startup then they tend to hire only senior programmers and have them do nothing but code. Experienced programmers are by far the best able to cut corners in the least worst places in other to get a product or service delivered quickly.

Funny thing is that the rock star/famous developers generally do spend most of their time coding because that is a fraction of the cost of what they bill for training. The very famous names in C++ get > $1000/seat/day for training, so take a class of 70 or so and you'll see even contractors are earning peanuts relatively speaking.

Regarding job hopping, in the Management literature it was proved empirically beyond doubt that job hopping maximises your income and job opportunities in high skill fields. If you're not job hopping, you're much more likely to become a second tier programmer.

Niall

InTheAttic

14ned wrote: »

Regarding job hopping, in the Management literature it was proved empirically beyond doubt that job hopping maximises your income and job opportunities in high skill fields. If you're not job hopping, you're much more likely to become a second tier programmer.

Niall

I really like this part of your post Niall. I really really stagnated in my lest development job. I stayed probably way longer than I should have. In your opinion, job hopping entails spending how much time (on average) in a dev job? Assuming it's not a job which you resent and want to leave immediately!

ligerdub

From my experience most people think the pay in their industry isn't great. They usually relate their own pay to the very highest salary positions.

To be honest I think anybody earning in the region of 60k per annum is doing fairly well.

14ned

InTheAttic wrote: »

I really like this part of your post Niall. I really really stagnated in my lest development job. I stayed probably way longer than I should have.

That Management degree of mine has come in handy many times. More than my Compsci degree, to be honest.

InTheAttic wrote: »

In your opinion, job hopping entails spending how much time (on average) in a dev job? Assuming it's not a job which you resent and want to leave immediately!

That's a very particular question to a given circumstance. It really does depend. But thinking of my younger colleagues who present at conferences, it would not be unusual to change jobs every two to three years or so in the beginning, maybe staying five years at somewhere you really liked. Once you're into the US$100k+ salary range things become much stickier especially as people start to have children around then, also there isn't much higher most can go unless they move to Silicon Valley or New York or London, and who wants to raise children there if avoidable.

I've noticed people also expect too much from their jobs (in any profession). Even at US$100k+ incomes, most of it is drudge work. Most of the time your opinion means nothing, and your work will be meaningless. That's why it's called the day job, and its purpose is to provide you above-median income so you can live a better life than the median. That's all it is or means, and so long as it isn't torture, you have it better than most Irish people, so relax and enjoy.

Later on down the line when the kids are older and you've got six figures in the pension fund, then is the time to take risks and do something meaningful. But until then, my best advice is ramp up to maximum pay as fast as you can when young, once onto US$100k+ then become a salary man and don't sweat it.

Niall

um7y1h83ge06nx

Huge difference in locations too around the country.

I'm based in Limerick and I would say €70-75K with benefits would be about top dollar for a Senior Developer. There would be a good few Senior Devs in the €55-60K bracket.

moycullen14

ligerdub wrote: »

From my experience most people think the pay in their industry isn't great. They usually relate their own pay to the very highest salary positions.

To be honest I think anybody earning in the region of 60k per annum is doing fairly well.

That's the sort of b**lox that has this career screwed. 60K? Can you imagine a group of doctors/solicitors sitting around saying that 'You know, 60K is a good wage'.

60K might be fine in your 20s/early 30s but try getting a mortgage in Dublin, educating a few kids, financing a pension and see where it gets you.

But, hey, if that's all you think you're worth......

14ned

moycullen14 wrote: »

That's the sort of b**lox that has this career screwed. 60K? Can you imagine a group of doctors/solicitors sitting around saying that 'You know, 60K is a good wage'.

60k isn't just a good wage, it's a great wage. The median income for full time workers in Ireland is about 32k. The household average income is about 46k. Just a few years ago 60k household income would put your household in the top 10% richest households in Ireland, that's likely changed a little since but it still won't be far off.

People in the professions way, way, way overestimate how poor they are. If you're earning 60k as a family unit, you are rich. Period.

60K might be fine in your 20s/early 30s but try getting a mortgage in Dublin, educating a few kids, financing a pension and see where it gets you.

It's tough going feeling wealthy in Dublin on 60k. Costs are so high. But as with working in London, you may end up much wealthier by taking a 30k pay cut to live away from a major urban centre. Around these parts here in North Cork, 30k is more than plenty to enjoy a very good quality life with children and a wife not working, and the commute to Mallow town centre is short too and parking is free.

Niall

Sources:

* https://www.thejournal.ie/readme/high-earner-ireland-755580-Jan2013/

* https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/super-rich-or-super-angry-where-are-you-on-ireland-s-income-pyramid-1.2104861

ligerdub

moycullen14 wrote: »

That's the sort of b**lox that has this career screwed. 60K? Can you imagine a group of doctors/solicitors sitting around saying that 'You know, 60K is a good wage'.

60K might be fine in your 20s/early 30s but try getting a mortgage in Dublin, educating a few kids, financing a pension and see where it gets you.

But, hey, if that's all you think you're worth......

I didn't say they were shooting the lights out, but it's by no means shoddy! As I said, it's a standard comparison of comparing ones career with a doctor, a solicitor, an engineer etc. Those jobs aren't the norm. The vast majority of people are in other disciplines, where salaries aren't in the 200k + band for all and sundry. Even within those roles, it might take 10 years + to get to the 70's.

Have a gander at IrishJobs.ie or the like and take review the salary ranges to be found in general terms. There won't be that many with 80k plus on there. Bear in mind that's only basic. When you add in pensions, healthcare, bonus, professional fees, potentially travel expenses and the like, it could be worth an extra 20 grand or so!

Also, money as a trainee solicitor or relatively new doctor isn't anything to write home about. I know a guy who is a doctor in Scotland, and he was on about £30k per annum in his early 30's.

"60K might be fine in your 20s/early 30s".....and that's probably when a lot would be earning those amounts! You have people giving out yards that they aren't earning 100k+ pa by the time they are 30, they need to get a grip of themselves and get their priorities straight. The fact that people can't survive on that salary in Dublin a more of a reflection of the dire housing market here. You could have bought a decent house in Dublin a couple of years back for about 250k, hardly a disaster for somebody earning 1/4 of that per annum.

a fat guy

Niall, we really need to have an Ask-Me-Anything with you on this forum. You seem to really know your stuff and I bet we'd all learn a lot from your experience (Not kissing ass here, I swear!).

On topic: 80-100K is really towards the upper end of things. A fresh grad will get in the mid-thirties when working for a multinational, and those that stay will likely not see amazing career results. I've only had two true developer jobs in my career (1.5 years in a small business and my current multinational employer at six months) and the difference in expectations between the two of them has been quite large, as has the salary. It strangely enough seemed that I was on better money in the smaller company, but by Christ was the work much more stressful (I learned a lot, but it was a horrible place to work for my first job. Living in Waterford left me with fewer choices though). In contrast, the multinational seems to care feck all what I do but pays peanuts (It's a higher salary, but it's in Dublin so the cost of living kills it).

A friend of mine stayed in Waterford and has worked there since 2013 in a medium-sized company. He has made himself indispensible and is on almost 70K now, but all he does is work. Not that that's a bad thing really, he lives for development. But it shows that you really have to work your ass off to get to that level (For years) and get pretty lucky AND be a little forceful with salary negotiation.

14ned

ligerdub wrote: »

The fact that people can't survive on that salary in Dublin a more of a reflection of the dire housing market here. You could have bought a decent house in Dublin a couple of years back for about 250k, hardly a disaster for somebody earning 1/4 of that per annum.

If you think it's bad in Dublin, it's far worse in London or Silicon Valley. I regularly turn down job offers from London, they have a huge unfilled worker problem there precisely because the apparently high salaries take you nowhere living there. Cost of living, especially housing and travel, is crippling over there. As I've mentioned here before, $160k in SV is nothing, can't raise a family on it. I've mentioned before a senior Google VIG I know who's pulling past a third of a million in salary before bonus and I think I'm actually wealthier than him in terms of what's left over after unavoidable costs. You can thank $6k/month rent and other crazy expenses over there for that.

Niall, we really need to have an Ask-Me-Anything with you on this forum. You seem to really know your stuff and I bet we'd all learn a lot from your experience (Not kissing ass here, I swear!).

It's pure luck, honestly. I have an Economics degree as well as compsci and I used to teach Economics to Adult Ed at UCC, so I am up to date on the Irish economy in detail until around 2009, including the crisis. Since then I've not kept up, no time sadly, but even at the peak of the Celtic Tiger the average Irish person was surprisingly poor and still remains so. It wasn't hard to ferret out some sources.

It's a lot, lot worse in the UK and especially the US though where the gap between the top 10% and bottom 10% is far worse than in Ireland. I vaguely remember the bottom 10% households in Britain have just £5000 in income or something like that. Really terrible and it's been getting worse since Tony Blair and really since Thatcher. No wonder they voted for Brexit. Ireland in comparison we are much more humane, we look after our own here.

Niall

lawred2

14ned wrote: »

60k isn't just a good wage, it's a great wage. The median income for full time workers in Ireland is about 32k. The household average income is about 46k. Just a few years ago 60k household income would put your household in the top 10% richest households in Ireland, that's likely changed a little since but it still won't be far off.

People in the professions way, way, way overestimate how poor they are. If you're earning 60k as a family unit, you are rich. Period.



It's tough going feeling wealthy in Dublin on 60k. Costs are so high. But as with working in London, you may end up much wealthier by taking a 30k pay cut to live away from a major urban centre. Around these parts here in North Cork, 30k is more than plenty to enjoy a very good quality life with children and a wife not working, and the commute to Mallow town centre is short too and parking is free.

Niall

Sources:

* https://www.thejournal.ie/readme/high-earner-ireland-755580-Jan2013/

* https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/super-rich-or-super-angry-where-are-you-on-ireland-s-income-pyramid-1.2104861

This is a thread about skilled employment in a thriving market for highly skilled individuals. The average industrial wage is not remotely relevant. The Irish tax system also means that the person earning 60k doesn't see a whole lot more in take home pay than a lad earning half that.

learn_more

My opinion of the state of pay in I.T specifically development in Ireland is as follows and I'm curious as how many here who work in IT agree with it. I should say I don't work in I.T.

Back in the 80's a job as a programmer/systems analyst would earn your about 60K after say 2 or 3 years of being proficient in say COBOL and just that really. On the spectrum of geat jobs in terms of pay/prestige it was considered to be in a tier just below that of a Solicitor, Doctor etc.

It is nothing like that anymore.

Since I suppose the mid to late 90's the pay in the sector has gone down significantly and if that wasn't bad enough the amount of work one is expected to put in has sky-rocketed to the point of insanity. The net result of all this is that an average job as a developer could not really be classified anything much above the status of a working-class job. A far cry from where it used to be.

Now, I am not saying that this has come about by some natural evolution. I am saying this has come about by design and I blame both the universities and the tech companies for this. Could say a lot more about that but I'll leave it there for the time being suffice to say I'm aware that performance and productivity expectations have increased in other sectors too but still nothing like what has happened in IT.

So to anyone who asks about pay I would say look elsewhere if pay is your primary concern. What is expected of you in uni and especially your own personal time is not worth it for the remuneration currently as it stands. By all means if you are the type that loves, really loves, studying and putting your knowledge into practise 24/7 then go ahead but don't do it because you think you will be rewarded with a commensurate salary cause you won't.

moycullen14

14ned wrote: »

60k isn't just a good wage, it's a great wage. The median income for full time workers in Ireland is about 32k. The household average income is about 46k. Just a few years ago 60k household income would put your household in the top 10% richest households in Ireland, that's likely changed a little since but it still won't be far off.

People in the professions way, way, way overestimate how poor they are. If you're earning 60k as a family unit, you are rich. Period.



It's tough going feeling wealthy in Dublin on 60k. Costs are so high. But as with working in London, you may end up much wealthier by taking a 30k pay cut to live away from a major urban centre. Around these parts here in North Cork, 30k is more than plenty to enjoy a very good quality life with children and a wife not working, and the commute to Mallow town centre is short too and parking is free.

Niall

Sources:

* https://www.thejournal.ie/readme/high-earner-ireland-755580-Jan2013/

* https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/super-rich-or-super-angry-where-are-you-on-ireland-s-income-pyramid-1.2104861

Ah here, 30K with a wife and two kids in Mallow gives you a good quality of life? So good you would actually qualify for Family Income supplement? Not sure I studied long and hard for my degree(s) to live on FIS in Mallow - and to consider myself fortunate.

14ned

lawred2 wrote: »

This is a thread about skilled employment in a thriving market for highly skilled individuals. The average industrial wage is not remotely relevant.

The OP asked:

People keep telling the wages aren't great in the industry. Which I think is a lie. What is the money like?

I'd have said the average industrial wage is very relevant to answering that question.

As for whether working in IT pays well relative to other skilled professions, it's probably in the top quarter, so it beats a teacher or a nurse or most civil servants (apart from their amazing pension) easily. But it doesn't do well compared to plumbers, panel beaters (I just handed one €800 to repair a small dent, in fairness a lovely job, but still), doctors and so on.

As a general rule though, training into STEM will put you into the top quarter of earning professionals, and that's been the case for a long, long time now. I'd also say skilled trades are a very good long term bet, all the ones I know around here in Mallow are making far more money than me this past year and have three week lead times they're so busy.

The Irish tax system also means that the person earning 60k doesn't see a whole lot more in take home pay than a lad earning half that.

That's a separate matter again. The Irish tax system has one of the steepest inclines to income and inheritance of any in the world, it's harder to pass on significant assets after death here than almost anywhere in the rich world and there is an enormous lump of tax hitting people after €33,800. I've never taken more than €33,800 income in any tax year of being a consultant in Ireland for example, hence how I can say with confidence how well one can live in North Cork as a family on that income with the wife not working.

Niall

14ned

moycullen14 wrote: »

Ah here, 30K with a wife and two kids in Mallow gives you a good quality of life? So good you would actually qualify for Family Income supplement? Not sure I studied long and hard for my degree(s) to live on FIS in Mallow - and to consider myself fortunate.

I had no idea I qualified for FIS, that is a real eye opener.

Honestly, we feel wealthy. We run two cars, eat well - perhaps a bit too well, kids are well fed, never feel short of money. Sure, there is a strict budget, but we've run a surplus on the €33,800 a year income for some years now so we have a good cushion. And the mental security that I clear low six figures in the business each year is a big gain i.e. I could take much more than €33k in some year if I ever wanted to.

What we don't do that some of our friends do is foreign holidays, buying new cars (we buy when they're ten years old), eating at restaurants unless it's a Board of Directors meeting for the company etc. We also live in a small house, rent is just a few hundred euro a month instead of two grand etc. Also, remember I work remotely, so no commuting nor parking nor fuel costs either.

Niall

moycullen14

33,800 takes you to the FIS limit so you'll have to scrape by without it.

Honestly, I must say I'm amazed and impressed that you can do this.

Perhaps if you are at the 'dip' period when kids don't cost too much, it might be possible.

A word to the wise, though, they will start costing a LOT more as they grow up.
College could end up costing you 8-10K per child per year, a figure that is only going to increase.

Housing costs of a couple of hundred euro a month are hardly sustainable either.

Yourself isit

moycullen14 wrote: »

33,800 takes you to the FIS limit so you'll have to scrape by without it.

Honestly, I must say I'm amazed and impressed that you can do this.

Perhaps if you are at the 'dip' period when kids don't cost too much, it might be possible.

A word to the wise, though, they will start costing a LOT more as they grow up.
College could end up costing you 8-10K per child per year, a figure that is only going to increase.

Housing costs of a couple of hundred euro a month are hardly sustainable either.

Probably are if he lives in mallow.

Remember he is locking away lots of money in his business. It's not hugely tax efficient but he can pay himself 33k and take a few years off.

moycullen14

Yourself isit wrote: »

Probably are if he lives in mallow.

Remember he is locking away lots of money in his business. It's not hugely tax efficient but he can pay himself 33k and take a few years off.

I can't believe we're having this discussion, anyway......

The cheapest house (3 bed semi) for rent in mallow is 950 per month. Now you might be spending a helluva lot less but - and this is the key - you must be prepared to pay market rates if you're renting. His current landlord could chuck him out with very little notice. What does he do then on his 33,800K per year?
Where does the 2K deposit + rent come from? What happens when the 10+ year old car claps out? What happens when the kids need medical or dental care? 33K for 4 people is precarious - it's not sustainable or ideal.

Anyway, he is not earning 33800, that's what he PAYS himself. Big difference. As you say the money is being held in the company and can be used if required.

lawred2

14ned wrote: »

That's a separate matter again. The Irish tax system has one of the steepest inclines to income and inheritance of any in the world, it's harder to pass on significant assets after death here than almost anywhere in the rich world and there is an enormous lump of tax hitting people after €33,800. I've never taken more than €33,800 income in any tax year of being a consultant in Ireland for example, hence how I can say with confidence how well one can live in North Cork as a family on that income with the wife not working.

Niall

While separate; it's entirely relevant. Someone earning 60k is not significantly better off than someone on 30k. Nowhere near twice as well off as their gross income would suggest.

So saying that they are 'rich' in comparison is not accurate.

moycullen14

learn_more wrote: »

My opinion of the state of pay in I.T specifically development in Ireland is as follows and I'm curious as how many here who work in IT agree with it. I should say I don't work in I.T.

Back in the 80's a job as a programmer/systems analyst would earn your about 60K after say 2 or 3 years of being proficient in say COBOL and just that really. On the spectrum of geat jobs in terms of pay/prestige it was considered to be in a tier just below that of a Solicitor, Doctor etc.

It is nothing like that anymore.

Since I suppose the mid to late 90's the pay in the sector has gone down significantly and if that wasn't bad enough the amount of work one is expected to put in has sky-rocketed to the point of insanity. The net result of all this is that an average job as a developer could not really be classified anything much above the status of a working-class job. A far cry from where it used to be.

Now, I am not saying that this has come about by some natural evolution. I am saying this has come about by design and I blame both the universities and the tech companies for this. Could say a lot more about that but I'll leave it there for the time being suffice to say I'm aware that performance and productivity expectations have increased in other sectors too but still nothing like what has happened in IT.

So to anyone who asks about pay I would say look elsewhere if pay is your primary concern. What is expected of you in uni and especially your own personal time is not worth it for the remuneration currently as it stands. By all means if you are the type that loves, really loves, studying and putting your knowledge into practise 24/7 then go ahead but don't do it because you think you will be rewarded with a commensurate salary cause you won't.

I would agree 100% with this.

There is no doubt that - in relative and absolute - terms pay has declined since the peak (late 90s/early 2000's).

Combination of a lot of things. Barriers to entry have been lowered. It's easier to get into the industry. Writing software in the 80s and 90s was difficult and expensive. Outsourcing has put downward pressure on wages as well.

Another problem is that you reach your earning peak quite early in development. There is no premium for 20 years experience over 10. There is a limit to what companies will pay at the top-level and once you've hit that, you have nowhere to go.

Of course, there are exceptions to all this. Contracting/consulting can increase the money you make and, in a small number of cases, you can earn huge bucks - but that's not for everybody.

I'm not sure I would recommend contracting for everybody. It can be difficult and you really have to have a plan in place for your declining years. You don't want to be chasing an ever decreasing number of opportunities in your 40s and 50s. Keeping up with technology can be difficult. It's said that there are major technology shifts every 10-12 years and that the average developer can adopt to at maybe 2 of these changes before burn-out kicks in.

Probably the best strategy for a young developer is to hitch your wagon to a rising star. Go and work for a company that is going to be successful. An Intel, Oracle or Microsoft in the 80's, a Google, Facebook, Amazon today.

Working in a successful company will do more for your career and finances than anything else. Be ruthless. If the company is not succeeding, leave.

Remember, you only have to hit the jackpot once!

ILikeBoats

moycullen14 wrote: »

Probably the best strategy for a young developer is to hitch your wagon to a rising star. Go and work for a company that is going to be successful. An Intel, Oracle or Microsoft in the 80's, a Google, Facebook, Amazon today.

Maybe even try a pre-IPO company that will be big...you could become very rich overnight

Yourself isit

lawred2 wrote: »

While separate; it's entirely relevant. Someone earning 60k is not significantly better off than someone on 30k. Nowhere near twice as well off as their gross income would suggest.

So saying that they are 'rich' in comparison is not accurate.

That's true. To double a take home pay of 2k a month you need to nearly triple your income. From 26k to high 70s

Yourself isit

moycullen14 wrote: »

I would agree 100% with this.

There is no doubt that - in relative and absolute - terms pay has declined since the peak (late 90s/early 2000's).

Combination of a lot of things. Barriers to entry have been lowered. It's easier to get into the industry. Writing software in the 80s and 90s was difficult and expensive. Outsourcing has put downward pressure on wages as well.

Another problem is that you reach your earning peak quite early in development. There is no premium for 20 years experience over 10. There is a limit to what companies will pay at the top-level and once you've hit that, you have nowhere to go.

Of course, there are exceptions to all this. Contracting/consulting can increase the money you make and, in a small number of cases, you can earn huge bucks - but that's not for everybody.

I'm not sure I would recommend contracting for everybody. It can be difficult and you really have to have a plan in place for your declining years. You don't want to be chasing an ever decreasing number of opportunities in your 40s and 50s. Keeping up with technology can be difficult. It's said that there are major technology shifts every 10-12 years and that the average developer can adopt to at maybe 2 of these changes before burn-out kicks in.

Probably the best strategy for a young developer is to hitch your wagon to a rising star. Go and work for a company that is going to be successful. An Intel, Oracle or Microsoft in the 80's, a Google, Facebook, Amazon today.

Working in a successful company will do more for your career and finances than anything else. Be ruthless. If the company is not succeeding, leave.

Remember, you only have to hit the jackpot once!

While I wouldn't recommend contracting for other reasons, the idea that a 40 year old needs to continuously reskill is not true. Sure new fads appear every month particularly in Web Dev but the contractor with his niche (cobol, c++, or others ) is still getting the big bucks and legacy systems don't die off.

In terms of hitting the jackpot - very rare in Ireland.

Yourself isit

In fact a lot of the advice here (which I have followed myself) is probably wrong abd it's been wrong for me. I'm 38. Earn well enough but have plateaued.

1) move jobs a lot.

No way into senior management if you do that. I moved every 2-3 years and am just now a manager. A friend who stayed with a boring mid ranking company is a VP.

2) look for startups.

You could get lucky. Three times I joined startups they failed.

3) leave unsuccessful companies

I left an unsuccessful company which is now one of the most successful in the world. The stock I left would make me a millionaire.

4) keep updating your skill set.

Did that too but there are always younger bloods latching onto the new thing. It hasn't harmed me that much but I know that some guys older than me have stayed in their niche and making 600 plus a day.

14ned

Yourself isit wrote: »

Remember he is locking away lots of money in his business. It's not hugely tax efficient but he can pay himself 33k and take a few years off.

I think you mean it's hugely tax efficient. Because of the close company surcharge, all monies not paid out as PAYE and expenses go into the occupational pension fund. Under current tax rules, once I reach 51 years old I can retire and my pension fund will pay out a lump sum tax free plus an annuity thereafter.

A word to the wise, though, they will start costing a LOT more as they grow up.
College could end up costing you 8-10K per child per year, a figure that is only going to increase.

Oh for sure. But by then I'll have cashed out the pension.

The cheapest house (3 bed semi) for rent in mallow is 950 per month. Now you might be spending a helluva lot less but - and this is the key - you must be prepared to pay market rates if you're renting. His current landlord could chuck him out with very little notice. What does he do then on his 33,800K per year?

I'm currently paying 575 per month. And it's not Mallow town centre, I'm in a village outside it. Again, a remote worker need not live close to anywhere but a train station.

Where does the 2K deposit + rent come from? What happens when the 10+ year old car claps out? What happens when the kids need medical or dental care? 33K for 4 people is precarious - it's not sustainable or ideal.

Anyway, he is not earning 33800, that's what he PAYS himself. Big difference. As you say the money is being held in the company and can be used if required.

All of which is absolutely accurate. What makes people feel poor after a certain minimum income is lack of liquidity, so when they need X euro urgently as an emergency, they can't raise it easily. I don't have that problem except at the very beginning of each tax year because Irish tax law requires you to zero your company cash balances i.e. either pay out via PAYE or put the money beyond access into a pension fund. So I have plenty of liquidity, and can adjust spending to bring total outgoings back under budget later. Hence the feelings of wealth.

Niall

purpleisafruit

I'm 21 months out of college and into my second company. I work in DevOps and have done since I started out. As it's a relatively new role type in IT circles, there is a shortage of people with the skills so salaries are quite good.
I started on high 30s in an MNC and joined a start up that has been acquired 6 months ago. Into the mid-50s now and will push into 60s by end of the year.
Based in Cork so cost of living isn't too bad.

moycullen14

Yourself isit wrote: »

In fact a lot of the advice here (which I have followed myself) is probably wrong abd it's been wrong for me. I'm 38. Earn well enough but have plateaued.

1) move jobs a lot.

No way into senior management if you do that. I moved every 2-3 years and am just now a manager. A friend who stayed with a boring mid ranking company is a VP.

2) look for startups.

You could get lucky. Three times I joined startups they failed.

3) leave unsuccessful companies

I left an unsuccessful company which is now one of the most successful in the world. The stock I left would make me a millionaire.

4) keep updating your skill set.

Did that too but there are always younger bloods latching onto the new thing. It hasn't harmed me that much but I know that some guys older than me have stayed in their niche and making 600 plus a day.

To be honest, what happened to you doesn't mean that the strategy is wrong, it means you were unlucky (maybe a bit of bad judgement too).

Ultimately, a lot of it comes down to being in the right place at the right time. I don't think there is a strategy that is guaranteed to work. The best you can do is shorten the odds for success.

Yourself isit

14ned wrote: »

I think you mean it's hugely tax efficient. Because of the close company surcharge, all monies not paid out as PAYE and expenses go into the occupational pension fund. Under current tax rules, once I reach 51 years old I can retire and my pension fund will pay out a lump sum tax free plus an annuity thereafter.

Isnt there a limit on what can be paid in.

Oh for sure. But by then I'll have cashed out the pension.



I'm currently paying 575 per month. And it's not Mallow town centre, I'm in a village outside it. Again, a remote worker need not live close to anywhere but a train station.



All of which is absolutely accurate. What makes people feel poor after a certain minimum income is lack of liquidity, so when they need X euro urgently as an emergency, they can't raise it easily. I don't have that problem except at the very beginning of each tax year because Irish tax law requires you to zero your company cash balances i.e. either pay out via PAYE or put the money beyond access into a pension fund. So I have plenty of liquidity, and can adjust spending to bring total outgoings back under budget later. Hence the feelings of wealth.

Niall

Good strategy.

Yourself isit

moycullen14 wrote: »

To be honest, what happened to you doesn't mean that the strategy is wrong, it means you were unlucky (maybe a bit of bad judgement too).

Ultimately, a lot of it comes down to being in the right place at the right time. I don't think there is a strategy that is guaranteed to work. The best you can do is shorten the odds for success.

My judgement is exactly what you recommended.

I'm still doing OK, in fact on the high end of salaries mentioned here, but same aged or older colleagues of mine who didn't retrain or stayed in the their supposedly obsolete niche or boring companies are doing better.

In fact guys in their 50s and 60s contracting for cobol and c++ are cleaning it.

Now there are anecdotes not statistics, just pointing out there are other stories.

(There's luck too - my VP friend could have been unemployed if the company had fallen over).

srsly78

Yourself isit wrote: »

Isnt there a limit on what can be paid in.

Company director can have an executive pension, which has (much higher) limit compared to a normal employees pension.

edit: To be clear, the "limit" refers to tax relief available. Company contribution to occupational pension is not taxed, so relief is not relevant.

moycullen14

Yourself isit wrote: »

My judgement is exactly what you recommended.

I'm still doing OK, in fact on the high end of salaries mentioned here, but same aged or older colleagues of mine who didn't retrain or stayed in the their supposedly obsolete niche or boring companies are doing better.

In fact guys in their 50s and 60s contracting for cobol and c++ are cleaning it.

Now there are anecdotes not statistics, just pointing out there are other stories.

(There's luck too - my VP friend could have been unemployed if the company had fallen over).

There is some evidence that the best times for particular technologies is at the start and at the end. The key is supply AND demand. I suppose the best skills are those that have a certain level of demand and a high barrier to entry.

Like you, I also walked away from a wildly successful start-up and have flogged myself to death on turkeys. I still think you are better off - on average and in the long run - focussing on the companies you work for, rather than technology.

14ned

Yourself isit wrote: »

Isnt there a limit on what can be paid in.

There is a surprisingly large number of ways to pay into a pension in Ireland, each with different rules and caps. The way we legally configured ours is as an occupational pension fund same as a SME. That way the company contributes to it out of operating income, not us, and thus you get flexibility in contribution amount per year depending on how good or bad that year was.

Yourself isit wrote: »

Good strategy.

Thanks. It isn't by accident, I paid lots of fees to professional advisors to design it for me, and it is not without sacrifice. For example, everyone I grew up with lives far away from here, but we chose here for the main line train station, the low rents and the excellent broadband. But no one ever visits, we're considered to live out the back of beyond by people in Cork and far too far away.

Like you, I also walked away from a wildly successful start-up and have flogged myself to death on turkeys. I still think you are better off - on average and in the long run - focussing on the companies you work for, rather than technology.

I had a number of startup failures too early on. They persuaded me to give up that lark until I was much older and no longer need to care about regular income.

Some people I know struck it lucky with startups, cashed out and are now millionaires, but the vast majority saw their startup fail or not become valuable. Startups are very hard to pull off, I contract my services to a lot of them.

Niall

moycullen14

14ned wrote: »

There is a surprisingly large number of ways to pay into a pension in Ireland, each with different rules and caps. The way we legally configured ours is as an occupational pension fund same as a SME. That way the company contributes to it out of operating income, not us, and thus you get flexibility in contribution amount per year depending on how good or bad that year was.



Thanks. It isn't by accident, I paid lots of fees to professional advisors to design it for me, and it is not without sacrifice. For example, everyone I grew up with lives far away from here, but we chose here for the main line train station, the low rents and the excellent broadband. But no one ever visits, we're considered to live out the back of beyond by people in Cork and far too far away.



I had a number of startup failures too early on. They persuaded me to give up that lark until I was much older and no longer need to care about regular income.

Some people I know struck it lucky with startups, cashed out and are now millionaires, but the vast majority saw their startup fail or not become valuable. Startups are very hard to pull off, I contract my services to a lot of them.

Niall

Rather than 'startups', I was thinking of companies that look to have a good chance of success. Hindsight, I know, but it was pretty obvious in the early 90s that microsoft was going to be a huge success. Similarly, intel, oracle, google, facebook, etc, etc. You could, I guess, just buy the stock.

You didn't need to join these companies when they were in the two men and a dog phase to make lots of money.

Yourself isit

moycullen14 wrote: »

Rather than 'startups', I was thinking of companies that look to have a good chance of success. Hindsight, I know, but it was pretty obvious in the early 90s that microsoft was going to be a huge success. Similarly, intel, oracle, google, facebook, etc, etc. You could, I guess, just buy the stock.

You didn't need to join these companies when they were in the two men and a dog phase to make lots of money.

That's right, the (relatively) unsuccessful company I left lots of stock and money on the table wasn't a startup.

moycullen14

Yourself isit wrote: »

That's right, the (relatively) unsuccessful company I left lots of stock and money on the table wasn't a startup.

Yeah, management buy outs, spin offs, etc can be surprisingly lucrative.
Some of the companies that came out of the Quinn group collapse have made the management/staff millions.

14ned

moycullen14 wrote: »

Rather than 'startups', I was thinking of companies that look to have a good chance of success. Hindsight, I know, but it was pretty obvious in the early 90s that microsoft was going to be a huge success. Similarly, intel, oracle, google, facebook, etc, etc. You could, I guess, just buy the stock.

You didn't need to join these companies when they were in the two men and a dog phase to make lots of money.

Thing is, it's far harder at the time to pick the winners. I was investing in tech during the 1990s and I lost a lot of money. I kept choosing what looked to have a good chance at the time, but it turns out they did not. For example, I invested in Microsoft three years before they plateaued, and during that time I made good money, but lost that gain and more on AMD which at the time looked to be a great bet with their not Pentium 4 CPUs.

I remember when Google first turned up and I panned the service to anybody I knew because, well it was crap initially. It looked highly likely to fail at the time and a very bad investment bet. Similarly Intel have always looked to be a one trick pony (and still are), and Facebook, well, I still think it unlikely to make money in the long term. I barely use FB anymore, and neither does an increasing number of people I know. It's mostly for the retired nowadays and selling them stuff is hard.

My lesson learned from that period is don't invest in companies, invest in industries. So a good chunk of my pension is in a very low cost passive tracker of the top 100 tech companies, and even after the current Silicon Valley bubble pops, I reckon the top 100 tech companies are a good bet for growth relative to other passive trackers available.

Niall

srsly78

14ned wrote: »

I remember when Google first turned up and I panned the service to anybody I knew because, well it was crap initially. It looked highly likely to fail at the time and a very bad investment bet.

Wait what....?

I did the exact opposite. All other search engines at the time were garbage (altavista etc). With google you actually got relevant results for your search, it was revolutionary at the time. Everyone I saw try it was an instant convert.

Whatever the wisdom of investing was, the service itself was not crap!

moycullen14

14ned wrote: »

Thing is, it's far harder at the time to pick the winners. I was investing in tech during the 1990s and I lost a lot of money. I kept choosing what looked to have a good chance at the time, but it turns out they did not. For example, I invested in Microsoft three years before they plateaued, and during that time I made good money, but lost that gain and more on AMD which at the time looked to be a great bet with their not Pentium 4 CPUs.

I remember when Google first turned up and I panned the service to anybody I knew because, well it was crap initially. It looked highly likely to fail at the time and a very bad investment bet. Similarly Intel have always looked to be a one trick pony (and still are), and Facebook, well, I still think it unlikely to make money in the long term. I barely use FB anymore, and neither does an increasing number of people I know. It's mostly for the retired nowadays and selling them stuff is hard.

My lesson learned from that period is don't invest in companies, invest in industries. So a good chunk of my pension is in a very low cost passive tracker of the top 100 tech companies, and even after the current Silicon Valley bubble pops, I reckon the top 100 tech companies are a good bet for growth relative to other passive trackers available.

Niall

And that's why you diversify your portfolio.

Google was a breath of fresh air back in 99-00 when I first used it. Altavista - the best SE at the time - was horrendously difficult to use. People ran courses/wrote books on how to get AV to work properly. By the time Google IPOd in 2004, it was obvious that it was a winner and owned the Internet. That's when you made your investment decision.

Facebook has been dying for years. So much so that it's stock is up 5x since the low just after the IPO. FB may fail in the long run but, as any fool knows, you make your money when you sell, not when you buy.

For a serious investor I would say these companies must have been blindingly obvious buys. Closer to home RyanAir is up 7x since 2009.

rainbow kirby

I'm on "not enough" in London - could do with a significant increase and should get one next time I move jobs. I was strongly considering jumping ship in summer 2015 and had a couple of interviews when we found out that our little guy was on the way, and that meant I was stuck where I was because of the pretty good maternity topup my current company offers.

Started looking around again now. I get a LOT of recruiter interest, but a good bit of it seems to be for totally unsuitable roles (I'm a Python developer with 4-5 years experience, people seem to want me for management roles a lot).