More penalty points for drivers!

Roadhawk

There is a provision to implement an €80 fine and 3 penalty point for not allowing 1.5m when passing a cyclist. Seems a little steep if you ask me. This is going to be a massive grey area unless the exact distance can be measured. What are your thoughts on this?

The Journal has a poll on this, very interesting:
http://www.thejournal.ie/poll-fine-for-drivers-cycling-3252087-Feb2017/

jive

my thoughts are it won't be enforced so don't worry about it, however do give cyclists 1.5m where possible as it's nice to be nice.

Arcade_Tryer

1.5 metres. 5 feet. Arm's distance.

If you're not giving at least that much distance when passing a cyclist then an €80 fine and 3 penalty points is the least you deserve.

Tropheus

Arcade_Tryer wrote: »

1.5 metres. 5 feet. Arm's distance.

For an orangutan...

Roadhawk

Tropheus wrote: »

For an orangutan...

Or Devin Toner

Roadhawk

http://www.independent.ie/life/motoring/car-news/motorists-now-face-80-fine-and-penalty-points-for-driving-too-close-to-cyclists-35471559.html

wotswattage

I'm all for protection of vulnerable road users, but will this be implemented for cyclists passing cars, buses and trucks too?

Many serious injuries and deaths occur when a cyclist is passing a larger vehicle in heavy traffic where there is not enough space.

Both types of road users need protection and enforcement.

NomadicGray

Arcade_Tryer wrote: »

1.5 metres. 5 feet. Arm's distance.

If you're not giving at least that much distance when passing a cyclist then an €80 fine and 3 penalty points is the least you deserve.

****ing Dan Donnelly over here

Atlantic Dawn

I'd support it if there was a €500 on the spot fine for any cyclist without a front and back working light.

Bazzy

wotswattage wrote: »

I'm all for protection of vulnerable road users, but will this be implemented for cyclists passing cars, buses and trucks too?

Many serious injuries and deaths occur when a cyclist is passing a larger vehicle in heavy traffic where there is not enough space.

Both types of road users need protection and enforcement.

I'd have to say I agree with this, To drive a car you need a licence , insurance , roadworthy cert be it nct or doe and tax

To ride a bike you need a bike the amount of people you see cycling without helmets or adequate lighting is ridiculous.

We do need to be mindful of each other on the roads but on the same hand we need to put some responsibility onto the cyclists also

dodzy

Roadhawk wrote: »

There is a provision to implement an €80 fine and 3 penalty point for not allowing 1.5m when passing a cyclist. Seems a little steep if you ask me. This is going to be a massive grey area unless the exact distance can be measured. What are your thoughts on this?

The Journal has a poll on this, very interesting:
http://www.thejournal.ie/poll-fine-for-drivers-cycling-3252087-Feb2017/

Relax, it'll never happen. Ridiculous idea and completely un-policeable*

(if that's even an actual word)

ted1

wotswattage wrote: »

I'm all for protection of vulnerable road users, but will this be implemented for cyclists passing cars, buses and trucks too?

Many serious injuries and deaths occur when a cyclist is passing a larger vehicle in heavy traffic where there is not enough space.

Both types of road users need protection and enforcement.

No because the two are very different

Go to a train station and stand beside the yellow line when a train passes. Now wait till a train stops and walk beside it.

You will see a huge difference

ted1

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

I'd support it if there was a €500 on the spot fine for any cyclist without a front and back working light.

If you putting the value at about 50% of the value of a bike would the equivalent for a car be 5000?

Although I did spend 300 on lights for my bike so 500 may be an incentive

El Horseboxo

ted1 wrote: »

No because the two are very different

Go to a train station and stand beside the yellow line when a train passes. Now wait till a train stops and walk beside it.

You will see a huge difference

But cyclists don't only pass by really close to the car when the car is stopped in traffic. I've been in slow moving traffic where there are inches between my car and a cyclist. And the cyclist would go by where they realistically should have stopped instead of trying to squeeze by. Only yesterday I had my mirror knocked back when I wasn't stopped.

Roadhawk

El Horseboxo wrote: »

But cyclists don't only pass by really close to the car when the car is stopped in traffic. I've been in slow moving traffic where there are inches between my car and a cyclist. And the cyclist would go by where they realistically should have stopped instead of trying to squeeze by. Only yesterday I had my mirror knocked back when I wasn't stopped.

I see this on a regular basis. Most of them say sorry and come back to fix the mirror if possible but it shouldn't happen in the first place.

Indricotherium

Roadhawk wrote: »

There is a provision to implement an €80 fine and 3 penalty point for not allowing 1.5m when passing a cyclist. Seems a little steep if you ask me. This is going to be a massive grey area unless the exact distance can be measured. What are your thoughts on this?

The Journal has a poll on this, very interesting:
http://www.thejournal.ie/poll-fine-for-drivers-cycling-3252087-Feb2017/

In my opinion there are three really dangerous parts to the car vs bike relationship on the roads.

1. Road ragers in cars
2. Inattentive and poor drivers in cars
3. Inexperienced or imbecile cyclists doing stupid things / wearing invisible clothes and having no lights

Aside from cars overtaking me and then turning left across me, the biggest problem I've encountered as a cyclist vs cars is road ragers swerving aggressively at me as I filter to the top of a queue either side of traffic.

While I welcome a definition of a un/safe passing distance in motor legislation, I don't think it will address the bigest car vs bike problems.

I don't see 3 penalty points entering into the head of a road rager upset at being passed in traffic, or a moron turning left 1 second after overtaking a cyclist.

I also don't imagine that an invisibly dressed cyclist with no lights will benefit from a statutory 1.5 metres.

ted1

El Horseboxo wrote: »

But cyclists don't only pass by really close to the car when the car is stopped in traffic. I've been in slow moving traffic where there are inches between my car and a cyclist. And the cyclist would go by where they realistically should have stopped instead of trying to squeeze by. Only yesterday I had my mirror knocked back when I wasn't stopped.

You said it yourself "slow moving traffic"

If you read the proposal it's 1.5m at 60kmh and 1m @50kmh

wotswattage

ted1 wrote: »

No because the two are very different

Go to a train station and stand beside the yellow line when a train passes. Now wait till a train stops and walk beside it.

You will see a huge difference

But this has nothing to do with bikes and trains. And its pretty obvious that a moving train is different to a stopped one. I'm not 100% sure what you mean.

I'm talking about cyclists being pinched between vehicles as they are passing them or left turning large vehicles or situations where the cyclist decides to go through a gap that is already too small/about to decrease.

Obviously many injuries to cyclists are caused by larger vehicles clipping them when passing. The 1.5m rule will make no difference to someone who is already too close to a bike, drunk, driving without due care and attention etc.

RayCun

El Horseboxo wrote: »

But cyclists don't only pass by really close to the car when the car is stopped in traffic. I've been in slow moving traffic where there are inches between my car and a cyclist. And the cyclist would go by where they realistically should have stopped instead of trying to squeeze by. Only yesterday I had my mirror knocked back when I wasn't stopped.

So a cyclist passed you too close, and bumped into your mirror.
Result - you had to adjust your mirror

What happens if you drive past a cyclist too close and bump into them?

And maybe there would be fewer close passes from bikes if more drivers would learn to MAINTAIN AN APPROPRIATE DISTANCE FROM THE SIDE OF THE ROAD

biko

If you can slap their arse you're too close..

Roadhawk

Indricotherium wrote: »

In my opinion there are three really dangerous parts to the car vs bike relationship on the roads.

1. Road ragers in cars
2. Inattentive and poor drivers in cars
3. Inexperienced or imbecile cyclists doing stupid things / wearing invisible clothes and having no lights

I think you have it all wrong...
1."Road Rages" mainly exist because of cyclists doing stupid things.
2. Im sure the ratio of Inattentive and poor cyclists to good cyclists are the same as Inattentive and poor motorists to good motorist. At least there is a test for these Inattentive and poor drivers to take to try bring the to a suitable level. There is no form of mandatory education for cyclists in Ireland.
3.Great point...plenty more that could be added to that.

Indricotherium wrote: »

Aside from cars overtaking me and then turning left across me, the biggest problem I've encountered as a cyclist vs cars is road ragers swerving aggressively at me as I filter to the top of a queue either side of traffic.

In my entire life driving and cycling I have only ever seen this with my own eyes once. I have worked in Dublin City for over 15 years and I can tell you this is not a regular occurrence. With over 200+ colleagues in my company most of who cycle have only reported only 3 occurrences of this behavior over the years. It was the same cyclist to experienced this behavior 3 times. I would call that a trend...

Indricotherium wrote: »

While I welcome a definition of a un/safe passing distance in motor legislation, I don't think it will address the biggest car vs bike problems.

I don't see 3 penalty points entering into the head of a road rager upset at being passed in traffic, or a moron turning left 1 second after overtaking a cyclist.

I also don't imagine that an invisibly dressed cyclist with no lights will benefit from a statutory 1.5 metres.

Looking at the 3 points another way....if you overtake a cyclist 4 times without allowing a 1.5m gap you are off the road for a minimum of 3 months? That is bloody absurd when there is no repercussion for the actions of a cyclist.

I can also tell you that motorists dont see rage because of a cyclist passing them in traffic...what drives them mad is cyclists jumping red lights, or on the path or the wrong way on one-way streets or on paths or cycling on the phone or cycling at night without lights and so on... and so on ... doing all this and getting away with it.

RayCun

Roadhawk wrote: »

I can also tell you that motorists dont see rage because of a cyclist passing them in traffic...what drives them mad is cyclists jumping red lights, or on the path or the wrong way on one-way streets or on paths or cycling on the phone or cycling at night without lights and so on... and so on ... doing all this and getting away with it.

and every day I see motorists driving through red lights, motorists on their phones, motorists practically on the kerb, motorists on their phones, motorists with lights that don't work, and did I mention motorists on their phones?
Plus people parking all over cycling lanes.

Can I start shooting at motorists who do these things? Is road rage acceptable now, if provoked?

biko

Let's focus on the distance issue and leave the driver/cyclists blah behind

Paulzx

RayCun wrote: »

and every day I see motorists driving through red lights, motorists on their phones, motorists practically on the kerb, motorists on their phones, motorists with lights that don't work, and did I mention motorists on their phones?

It would be interesting to compare the amount of motorists fined/convicted for these offences to the amount of cyclists fined/convicted. I'd say there is no comparison

Whatever about lax enforcement against motorists there is zero enforcement of lawbreaking cyclists.

Cyclists are vulnerable road users. Motorists should be extra vigilant and take proper due cognisance of them. We all share the road together.

However some cyclists don't seem interested in regarding themselves as vulnerable road users. People have to take personnell responsabiltiy...............and some cyclists don't seem to worry about other vulnerable users such as pedestrians.

I've no idea what the solution is but the hardcore element on all sides i.e motorists, cyclists and pedestrians are probably never going to happily use the roads together without raging at each other


The distance issue is unenforcable and is nothing more than political attention seeking

Roadhawk

RayCun wrote: »

and every day I see motorists driving through red lights, motorists on their phones, motorists practically on the kerb, motorists on their phones, motorists with lights that don't work, and did I mention motorists on their phones?
Plus people parking all over cycling lanes.

Yes this is evident particularly in Dub City and each offense you mention carries a fine and/or penalty points. Drivers are held accountable for their actions through penalty points and bans but cyclists are not. Drivers are identifiable through registration plates and driving licenses but cyclists are not. There is far more governance around using a motor vehicle than there is using a bicycle. Absolutely anyone can hop on a bike and cycle around the city irrespective of their road knowledge or anything, its a complete free-for-all.

RayCun wrote: »

Can I start shooting at motorists who do these things? Is road rage acceptable now, if provoked?

You can say what you like to these people...that's none of my business but if your on a bicycle please dont bang on the roof or window of the vehicle...thats the one thing i hate to see cyclists doing.

Indricotherium

Roadhawk wrote: »

I think you have it all wrong...

I can also tell you that motorists .. see rage ......... doing all this and getting away with it.

You clearly have an axe to grind with cyclists.

Aggressive driving toward other road users can't be justified by provocation, and the reality is that the repercussions to a cyclist getting hit by a car are significantly, life changingly, worse than the superficial or indeed (in your example) nonexistent damage, that is caused by cyclists to drivers, and so the penalties for dangerous behaviour by drivers are rightly much more severe.

Roadhawk

Roadhawk wrote: »

There is a provision to implement an €80 fine and 3 penalty point for not allowing 1.5m when passing a cyclist. Seems a little steep if you ask me. This is going to be a massive grey area unless the exact distance can be measured. What are your thoughts on this?

The Journal has a poll on this, very interesting:
http://www.thejournal.ie/poll-fine-for-drivers-cycling-3252087-Feb2017/

I'm going to put a stick with a boxing glove attached to the side of my car. The stick will be 1.5m long.

dodzy

ted1 wrote: »

You said it yourself "slow moving traffic"

If you read the proposal it's 1.5m at 60kmh and 1m @50kmh

All the more reason why it will never happen as it could not possibly be policed. Pure nonsense.

secman

wotswattage wrote: »

But this has nothing to do with bikes and trains. And its pretty obvious that a moving train is different to a stopped one. I'm not 100% sure what you mean.

I'm talking about cyclists being pinched between vehicles as they are passing them or left turning large vehicles or situations where the cyclist decides to go through a gap that is already too small/about to decrease.

Obviously many injuries to cyclists are caused by larger vehicles clipping them when passing. The 1.5m rule will make no difference to someone who is already too close to a bike, drunk, driving without due care and attention etc.

This proposal is more to do with a cyclist being passed by any vehicle at high speed 60 kmph + and the vehicle making a " close " pass of less than 1.5 metres. A Very frightening experience when you feel the blast of wind/ air hitting you from a close pass and totally unacceptable too, it's pure dangerous driving. Just no need for it, and only one party will be injured or fatally harmed if it is misjudged. We are merely proposing to adopt a law being used on many other jurisdictions.

It will not apply to the majority of drivers who tend to indicate and move wide of the cyclist, and make a completely safe pass.

TheChizler

dodzy wrote: »

All the more reason why it will never happen as it could not possibly be policed. Pure nonsense.

They manage in the UK. I imagine borderline cases will be hard to come down on either way, but if someone clearly passes under that distance there should be no problem. Garda opinions are used in evidence all the time, why not here?

RayCun

Roadhawk wrote: »

Yes this is evident particularly in Dub City and each offense you mention carries a fine and/or penalty points.

There are on the spot fines for cycling offences.

There is licencing required for driving a car because of the inherent risk a car presents to everyone else on or near the road.

You've had this argument many times, you know this as well as I do. I don't see what you gain by a pretense of ignorance.

Roadhawk

dodzy wrote: »

All the more reason why it will never happen as it could not possibly be policed. Pure nonsense.

Lets hope so anyway...

CiniO

I'm all for it by all means.
1.5m is reasonable minimum, except at crawling speed traffic jam conditions.

However I wonder how can they introduce penalty points offence for not leaving 1.5m distance when overtaking cyclist, when there isn't any law making such requirement.

I'd say they would first need to make it illegal to overtake cyclists without leaving 1.5m distance, and only then introduce penalty points offence for not obeying it.

TheChizler

CiniO wrote: »

However I wonder how can they introduce penalty points offence for not leaving 1.5m distance when overtaking cyclist, when there isn't any law making such requirement.

[oversimplified]The law basically says that the Minister can introduce points/fines for anything he wants. No need for an act of parliament for each offence.[/oversimplified]

CiniO

dodzy wrote: »

All the more reason why it will never happen as it could not possibly be policed. Pure nonsense.

It works in most countries - why not here....
It's scary to cycle on coutnry roads in Ireland.

CiniO

TheChizler wrote: »

The law basically says that the Minister can introduce points/fines for anything he wants. No need for an act of parliament for each offence.

I understand that.
But he can't introduce a fine/points for something that isn't an offence.
At the moment, overtaking a cyclist when leaving only 0.5m distance is not an offence.
So how can the points/fine be issued for that?

Roadhawk

RayCun wrote: »

There are on the spot fines for cycling offences.

There is licencing required for driving a car because of the inherent risk a car presents to everyone else on or near the road.

You've had this argument many times, you know this as well as I do. I don't see what you gain by a pretense of ignorance.

Yes and if it continues this way a motorist will be issued a fine and points for taking their eyes off the road after sneezing.

Having such a hefty sanction for passing less than 1.5 is scandalous. It couldn't possible be taken seriously.

Indricotherium

Roadhawk wrote: »

Yes and if it continues this way a motorist will be issued a fine and points for taking their eyes off the road after sneezing.

Having such a hefty sanction for passing less than 1.5 is scandalous. It couldn't possible be taken seriously.

I think what you're missing the essential imbalance in consequences in a car vs bike collision.

Stopping cars hitting cyclists is much more important than stopping cyclists brushing off cars in traffic, and so the penalties are (rightly) much more severe.

Full disclosure I am a cyclist, but I am also a motor enthusiast, so I feel I have a balanced view of the merits of both types of transport, and the needs of both types of road users.

Roadhawk

Indricotherium wrote: »

I think what you're missing the essential imbalance in consequences in a car vs bike collision.

Stopping cars hitting cyclists is much more important than stopping cyclists brushing off cars in traffic, and so the penalties are (rightly) much more severe.

Full disclosure I am a cyclist, but I am also a motor enthusiast, so I feel I have a balanced view of the merits of both types of transport, and the needs of both types of road users.

I am also a cyclist (up until last year) and motorist so i too understand the responsibilities and dangers of both. Im not missing anything at all...I know who comes off worse in an incident between a vehicle and cyclist. When cycling i know the dangers to be faced when entering the city. That wont change with the implementation of penalties such as the 1.5 rule. This will not stop motorists from being involved in accidents with cyclists. From what i see on a daily basis cyclists are more of a danger to themselves by neglecting their own safety and disobeying the laws designed to protect road users. Just because they may not kill someone when jumping a red does mean they can do it...

cajonlardo

Tropheus wrote: »

For an orangutan...

look up ape index. Normal span is your own height.

ebbsy

It's mostly the cyclists on the DCC bikes that are the danger. Headphones in, no helmets etc.

TheChizler

ebbsy wrote: »

It's mostly the cyclists on the DCC bikes that are the danger. Headphones in, no helmets etc.

To themselves (and that's debatable). This is about motorists responsibilities towards cyclists. Do what you want as far as I care as long as you're not endangering anyone else.

cajonlardo

Roadhawk wrote: »

I see this on a regular basis. Most of them say sorry and come back to fix the mirror if possible but it shouldn't happen in the first place.

YOU SEE THIS ON A REGULAR BASIS

roadhawk, you see an awful lot on a regular basis.

Stuff I haven't seen in almost 4 decades of driving including emergency, and several other high mileage and high pressure roles.

Never, once has a cyclist touched my mirrors. I've had the odd one tip of the vehicle but not as many as I've had other cars hit me !

People experiencing grief on a regular basis where other road users are not maybe need to have a long hard look at their own driving.

You remind me of a woman who told me cyclists keep slapping her car. Never , ever has a cyclist slapped my vehicle and I use the same roads she does.

doolox

Could it be that the cyclist sees a small defenseless woman in the car and feels free to bash her car but, on seeing a man in a car leaves well enough alone.

cajonlardo

doolox wrote: »

Could it be that the cyclist sees a small defenseless woman in the car and feels free to bash her car but, on seeing a man in a car leaves well enough alone.

Nope.

Try again. My "little" wife uses same roads without any issues, I have a sister who works in the same part of town and she has never experienced it. If it happens to a driver once or twice you could write it off to bullies.
If something is happening on a regular basis or "often" as roadhawk states, then you have to wonder what the driver is doing

Roadhawk

cajonlardo wrote: »

YOU SEE THIS ON A REGULAR BASIS

roadhawk, you see an awful lot on a regular basis.

Stuff I haven't seen in almost 4 decades of driving including emergency, and several other high mileage and high pressure roles.

Never, once has a cyclist touched my mirrors. I've had the odd one tip of the vehicle but not as many as I've had other cars hit me !

People experiencing grief on a regular basis where other road users are not maybe need to have a long hard look at their own driving.

You remind me of a woman who told me cyclists keep slapping her car. Never , ever has a cyclist slapped my vehicle and I use the same roads she does.

Im in the emergency services too but barely have half of the experience you have at 4 decades.

Let me correct myself on that one...mirror clipping is more of a rarity than a regular occurrence. If i had to put a number on it id say it happens once or twice a month. I also pointed out that most cyclists are apologetic and fix the mirror if possible. If you havent seen this in Dublin city then your're clearly not paying enough attention on the road.

I only ever get the odd cyclist slap my car when im stopped in traffic and go close to the kerb because I intend on turning left. When i role down the window to hear them give out i just tell them that i've taken the defensive position...that really makes them pop. Other than that the only other thing that annoys me is when they put their hand out to balance themselves on my car when in traffic...again this is only starting to happen in the last 2-3 years.

My driving styles are perfectly legal and safe to all. Ive never had as much as a "close call" on the road.

RayCun

Intending to turn left at some point in the future is not a good reason to be close to the kerb.

Skylinehead

cajonlardo wrote: »

look up ape index. Normal span is your own height.

That's two arms, not one.

cajonlardo

Skylinehead wrote: »

That's two arms, not one.

yeah, copped that later

jgorres

An example, where the distance was most probably less than 1.5 metres: https://cycliq.com/videos/no-margin-for-error

John_Rambo

I don't know. Lots of attitude on this thread... "I'll do it if..."

I've been leaving a 1.5 metre gap for years. It's easy. Calm down, Upskill or leave the car at home.