Selling the cows

Calfscour

Hi lads looking for advise. Hitting 40 soon and I'm after falling out of love with my dairy cows. Have a young family here and I'm sick of work to be perfectly honest!!

I have good land good cows and good facilities, I'm just fed up of working every evening and every weekend. Sunk a good bit of money into the place when I started so debt levels aren't huge what I'd get for the cows would more then pay em off. I've 110 cows now and could drive on again but don't have the stomach for it anymore.

Been at this full time for 10 yrs and I'd say I've only paid myself properly 2 of those yrs. So couldn't really afford full time help. Need to spend more time with the family. Have education so a career change wouldn't be the hardest part. Am I mad thinking this or are there others out there thing that the pay from cows doesn't reflect the hours worked??

wiggy123

Tough to know--there a chance of getting a partnership going... like a neighbour..u put in the moneis/cows.. they do the work,etc.. 50?50 profit then..no!

Siamsa Sessions

Fair play to you for looking at it with a critical eye - lots of lads don't.

I sold our cows and quota in 2002 and leased the whole place. I went back to college and worked in ICT full-time til 2015, when I "took back" a few acres. Still work off-farm 4 days a week but can see a future in the agri sector now that i didn't see in 2002.

I sound like Oprah or someone now but only you can decide what's best. All i can really say is that it's tough when you get rid of the cows, but it's liberating at the same time. And if you've the land and finance, you can alway go back to it (admittely that would take time)

Signpost

If you have good land, cows & setup would it not be as easy for you to hire in someone and once the farm covers their wages your still on to a winner and if you change your mind or need to go back into farming again for what ever reason the whole place still exists? If you completely cut yourself from the costs wouldnt be long making enough to pay a fella?

kevthegaff

Calfscour wrote:

I have good land good cows and good facilities, I'm just fed up of working every evening and every weekend. Sunk a good bit of money into the place when I started so debt levels aren't huge what I'd get for the cows would more then pay em off. I've 110 cows now and could drive on again but don't have the stomach for it anymore.

Calfscour wrote:

Hi lads looking for advise. Hitting 40 soon and I'm after falling out of love with my dairy cows. Have a young family here and I'm sick of work to be perfectly honest!!

Calfscour wrote:

Been at this full time for 10 yrs and I'd say I've only paid myself properly 2 of those yrs. So couldn't really afford full time help. Need to spend more time with the family. Have education so a career change wouldn't be the hardest part. Am I mad thinking this or are there others out there thing that the pay from cows doesn't reflect the hours worked??

Good honest post, signposts advice probably sounds right

Username John

Signpost wrote: »

If you have good land, cows & setup would it not be as easy for you to hire in someone and once the farm covers their wages your still on to a winner and if you change your mind or need to go back into farming again for what ever reason the whole place still exists? If you completely cut yourself from the costs wouldnt be long making enough to pay a fella?

It's a high enough insurance policy to pay tho is it not?

Like, you're saying pay a lad what, maybe 25-30k just to keep the place ticking over in case you want to go back... plus, even if you had a lad paid, would they not want to take long weekends, and holidays themselves - which sounds to be exact times which the OP really wants back?

You'd want to stack this up against the opportunity cost of getting out (as in selling cows, leasing land) and using this to go towards a setup in a new career?

I'm afraid I don't know the answer OP, so I can't really advise.
The only thing I will say is they say you should never give up on a bad day, only on a good day...

Best of luck whatever you decide...

Mulumpy

Having been in the same position myself 2 years ago , I sold the cows rented half the land and have drystock on rest. Work full time so have a bit of a life back so can enjoy my family but still with plenty to do at a nicer pace.

Willfarman

Good god what's wrong with you!
Firstly remember you are not a man you are a " labour unit".

You don't have land, you have "a grazing platform".

Now The only talk we want to hear about is"driving on".. Imagine you could be milking 200 cows in ten years..

pedigree 6

Willfarman wrote: »

Good god what's wrong with you!
Firstly remember you are not a man you are a " labour unit".

You don't have land, you have "a grazing platform".

Now The only talk we want to hear about is"driving on".. Imagine you could be milking 200 cows in ten years..

Ah shurup willfarman.:D

satstheway

Where about are in the country are you located.
You could rent out as a going concern.
Eg sell client the cows and rent him the farm.
Are you maxed out with cow numbers?

Icelandicseige

Partnership!!
Find someone that's looking to get in. You can train them up and then slide back into being a silent partner. Then few years down the line you can reassess your situation.

pedigree 6

Is your house in the farmyard?

ganmo

why are ye suggesting partnership?
if theres someone that wants to farm it let them lease it
calfscour gets his tax free rent regardless if theres a profit made or not

Willfarman

Is there anything you can do to simplify the job a bit. Such as Sell all calves. Buy your replacements as you go. Get rid of late Calvers and try get calving done I one intense 2 month period and get a relief man to during these months. Use a contractor as much as possible. Maybe get a regular weekend relief Miilker.

blue5000

I got out of them a few years back as well, all I can say is take a year to think about it before you decide. Partnership with another dairy farmer might be a better option than a partnership with a labour unit.

FeelTheBern

Don't know much about milking but from what I hear 110 cows is at a difficult level - too much for one person to manage and not enough to justify a second person. Would you consider cutting back to around 80 cows - might improve quality of life? Neighbour beside me milking round 80 and seems to have good family time - he says he could add 30 or 40 cows for the land he has but thinks would be negative for time and money.

Only other thing I could say it that the middle of spring probably the worst time to make any big decisions like this - no harm to stand back and thing about things though. Good luck anyway.

Water John

At 100 cows, the only type of Partnership that might work is with a neighbour who has some cows and or land already. You being the non working partner a la Darragh McCullagh.

Calfscour

Just in from a calving there thanks for all the replies lads. I'll be finished calving on the 1st of April currently have 70% calved. Only keep heifer calves don't milk over the winter anything not in calf sold in Dec. Cows out by day at the min.

Contractor for silage and slurry. I'm doing all the stuff to ease the load but still seem to be flat out all the time and always wrecked tired in the evening. Wife says I'm a workaholic but I think I'm only doing what I have to!

My old man was the same never seen him when we were kids looks like I'm following in his footsteps!!! I can't really afford to pay a full time guy as I'm not even paying myself properly. It's a balls of a thing to be thinking about but it's always in the back of my head these days!! Again thanks for the input lads!!

Calfscour

Not maxd out can easily milk 150 just don't want to!!!

Calfscour

pedigree 6 wrote: »

Is your house in the farmyard?

Yes house is in yard. So is the mothers.

Calfscour

blue5000 wrote: »

I got out of them a few years back as well, all I can say is take a year to think about it before you decide. Partnership with another dairy farmer might be a better option than a partnership with a labour unit.

Regrets?

tomwaterford

Calfscour wrote: »

Not maxd out can easily milk 150 just don't want to!!!

Have heard of a lad.....who leased the farm,cows the whole lot and was worked into the deal he is to get the same number/age range of cows back after so many years

Dunno what way this would work regards tax/investment like reseeding etc on farm??

satstheway

Calfscour wrote: »

Not maxd out can easily milk 150 just don't want to!!!

2 robots not my cup of tea but I have seen them working.

Timmaay

Why have you only paid yourself properly in 2 out of the 10yrs?? Fair enough alot of us need to spend 3 or 4 yrs ploughing every penny back into the farm, but there needs to be some sorta longer term plan where the sums eventually will definitely stack up! What is your system now, ie how early do you get out to grass, how much meal is in the diet, what sort of cow type? Are you in a discussion group? Do you regularly complete a profit monitor?

Also how much part time/relief help do you have on the farm? I've got similar cow numbers here, I got thrown into farming here in my mid 20s (6yrs ago now), things were very rough the start, and I questioned my sanity many many times ha, I don't want to know how much money I've reinvested back into the farm (it's prb something between 100 and 200k), but things have come right the last 2yrs, I'm finally paying myself right, moving forward if the price of milk drops I'll let the farm suffer before I'll let my pocket suffer again (and if it came to it I'd sell up also before I'd not pay myself!)

And finally, as others said now isn't the time to make this decision, however unless you do have a plan, and can turn things around within say 2/3 yrs, then absolutely get out, life wayy too short to spend it doing what you don't enjoy.

patsy_mccabe

Could you get in someone to milk at weekends and take the weekend off. 'A rest is as good as a break' as they say.

Calfscour

Timmaay wrote: »

Why have you only paid yourself properly in 2 out of the 10yrs?? Fair enough alot of us need to spend 3 or 4 yrs ploughing every penny back into the farm, but there needs to be some sorta longer term plan where the sums eventually will definitely stack up! What is your system now, ie how early do you get out to grass, how much meal is in the diet, what sort of cow type? Are you in a discussion group? Do you regularly complete a profit monitor?

Also how much part time/relief help do you have on the farm? I've got similar cow numbers here, I got thrown into farming here in my mid 20s (6yrs ago now), things were very rough the start, and I questioned my sanity many many times ha, I don't want to know how much money I've reinvested back into the farm (it's prb something between 100 and 200k), but things have come right the last 2yrs, I'm finally paying myself right, moving forward if the price of milk drops I'll let the farm suffer before I'll let my pocket suffer again (and if it came to it I'd sell up also before I'd not pay myself!)

And finally, as others said now isn't the time to make this decision, however unless you do have a plan, and can turn things around within say 2/3 yrs, then absolutely get out, life wayy too short to spend it doing what you don't enjoy.

Hi Tim thanks for the advise but I'm a bit further down the line then yourself and have a house and kids to look after as well as the farm so it's not fair to assume I'm pumping everything back into the place.

Cows are out on grass, don't feed anything fancy just grass, nuts, silage. In a discussion group and I would be in the top 10% of farmers in my co-op.

It's the hours worked I'm sick of. Have trained up two lads in the last two years to milk I pay well but they eventually get full time jobs and I can't blame them as I only have days here and there.

Just started this thread to see if anyone is in a similar position to myself or was at one time. Thanks again for the advice everyone.

kevthegaff

I'd say plenty of guys in your boat Cs, have same problem here training lads they don't last long. Family and d farming is tough especially when they're young but it will get easier!

Willfarman

Calfscour wrote: »

Hi Tim thanks for the advise but I'm a bit further down the line then yourself and have a house and kids to look after as well as the farm so it's not fair to assume I'm pumping everything back into the place.

Cows are out on grass, don't feed anything fancy just grass, nuts, silage. In a discussion group and I would be in the top 10% of farmers in my co-op.

It's the hours worked I'm sick of. Have trained up two lads in the last two years to milk I pay well but they eventually get full time jobs and I can't blame them as I only have days here and there.

Just started this thread to see if anyone is in a similar position to myself or was at one time. Thanks again for the advice everyone.

I think there's a lot of guys in your predicament and asking the very same question. Would a few less cows alleviate some pressure? Or improve the parlour? Cluster removers or a few extra units?

yewtree

Fair play to the op a lot of lads are going through the same thing.
From reading the thread sounds like your doing a very good job. When drawings are high on a farm it can feel likelly your making nothing put if you are rearing a family and paying a mortagage clearly the farm is profitable.
There is nothing wrong with wanting a change of career people in other walks of life do it all the time. You have done it for ten years at this stage you probably know milking cows isn't what you want.
For what's it's worth i would consider leasing as going concern (tax free money)as has been said already. Take your time and get the right person and it can be a win win.
Best of luck

blue5000

Calfscour wrote: »

Regrets?

God no! Cash flow is an issue, but to be honest it was an issue when milking as well for half the year anyway.

Have roughly the same amount of sucklers now and lots more family time, days off etc. Legwax on here would be a good one to talk to, he got out of milking, then back in after a few years of a break.

The best thing about your situation is you have lots of options, even though you are probably flat out and wrecked at present, you might not realize it. For me working on your own late in feb-march was the worst time of year, your name on here says a lot!

Have you talked things over with OH? As already mentioned 2 robots might work if your yard is in the middle of a large block of land.

kowtow

Calfscour wrote: »

Just in from a calving there thanks for all the replies lads. I'll be finished calving on the 1st of April currently have 70% calved. Only keep heifer calves don't milk over the winter anything not in calf sold in Dec. Cows out by day at the min.

Contractor for silage and slurry. I'm doing all the stuff to ease the load but still seem to be flat out all the time and always wrecked tired in the evening. Wife says I'm a workaholic but I think I'm only doing what I have to!

My old man was the same never seen him when we were kids looks like I'm following in his footsteps!!! I can't really afford to pay a full time guy as I'm not even paying myself properly. It's a balls of a thing to be thinking about but it's always in the back of my head these days!! Again thanks for the input lads!!

Is there scope to lease the whole place, with cows, lock stock and barrel to a young(er) farmer?

If there isn't, given the work and the money you have already invested we should all be asking questions of ourselves and not just the OP (who is to be commended for this honest & pragmatic thread in the first place).

But if there is - leaving aside the exact structure for a moment - then you have a chance to give a young new entrant without land a wonderful opportunity. The right candidate will know this when he or she sees it and may well do as well with the place as you have. They may do you proud.

Willfarman

kowtow wrote: »

Is there scope to lease the whole place, with cows, lock stock and barrel to a young(er) farmer?

If there isn't, given the work and the money you have already invested we should all be asking questions of ourselves and not just the OP (who is to be commended for this honest & pragmatic thread in the first place).

But if there is - leaving aside the exact structure for a moment - then you have a chance to give a young new entrant without land a wonderful opportunity. The right candidate will know this when he or she sees it and may well do as well with the place as you have. They may do you proud.

A wonderful opportunity. The right candidate just needs a few less brain cells than yourself to be blinded to the reason why the place is being set... And then try and work even harder than a bloody good operator who is increasing his nett worth with any land improvements etc.
He or she will possess their own wellies and to not only generate a income for themselves but the rent/ rates too.. Teagasc or the farmers journal term such a candidate as a dynamic, progressive individual with a passion for driving on.. But in these parts they'd be termed as being "a bit soft".

But if you find such an individual you are indeed elected.

yewtree

Willfarman wrote: »

A wonderful opportunity. The right candidate just needs a few less brain cells than yourself to be blinded to the reason why the place is being set... And then try and work even harder than a bloody good operator who is increasing his nett worth with any land improvements etc.
He or she will possess their own wellies and to not only generate a income for themselves but the rent/ rates too.. Teagasc or the farmers journal term such a candidate as a dynamic, progressive individual with a passion for driving on.. But in these parts they'd be termed as being "a bit soft".

But if you find such an individual you are indeed elected.

I took from the op that he doesn't want to milk cows anymore not that the farm isn't making any money, I stand to be corrected on this by op.

There lots of lads making a living on rented land, its nonsense to suggest anyone looking for a different wayou into dairying is a bit soft most of these lads would buy and sell established farmers.
I would fully agree with kowtow view about an opportunity for a new entrant.

Willfarman

yewtree wrote: »

I took from the op that he doesn't want to milk cows anymore not that the farm isn't making any money, I stand to be corrected on this by op.

There lots of lads making a living on rented land, its nonsense to suggest anyone looking for a different wayou into dairying is a bit soft most of these lads would buy and sell established farmers.
I would fully agree with kowtow view about an opportunity for a new entrant.

I don't dispute that the op is making money. He owns the land, he has low debt and runs a good show. And is ****ed up with the long hours and hard work.
Now a new entrant has all the same hours and a few more and has to find rent and rates before they take a bob themselves.. A wonderful opportunity.. And yes I agree it's a good way to go for the op.

But with regard to lads or lassies looking to get a crust in this manner well as the saying goes, some mothers do ave em!

pedigree 6

Calfscour wrote: »

Yes house is in yard. So is the mothers.

Right I presume you are doing everything to lessen the workload.
Batch feeding calves etc, etc.

Now this is going to sound a bit different.

Right you say the house is in the yard.
In my opinion this is bad for livestock farmers mental health I.e are you able to switch off from farming?
Looking out your sitting room window and seeing the milking parlour or calf shed brings the farm into the house.

Your dwelling house should be your refuge and relax time from your job.
Is there anyway to screen the farm from your house , hedge or wall etc. Sounds simple but think about it even a garden with a big hedge makes a difference.

Look at a lot of the livestock Ifa people and see where their house is? Down here those people open their door and are straight on the farm. Basically what I'm saying is you need another get away from it all life, time that is different from the farm if your house is in the yard.

Your a child of circumstance that's all.

fepper

He did say what he was making out of it wasn't worth the hours and hard work he was putting into it

Sam Kade

FeelTheBern wrote: »

Don't know much about milking but from what I hear 110 cows is at a difficult level - too much for one person to manage and not enough to justify a second person. Would you consider cutting back to around 80 cows - might improve quality of life? Neighbour beside me milking round 80 and seems to have good family time - he says he could add 30 or 40 cows for the land he has but thinks would be negative for time and money.

Only other thing I could say it that the middle of spring probably the worst time to make any big decisions like this - no harm to stand back and thing about things though. Good luck anyway.

He may as well be milking 110 rather than 80 it's only an extra couple of rows apart from that the extra workload would be extra cows to calve which is only once a year.

foxy farmer

Just curious on one small issue. If the OP walked into a new career and let the farm for a few years would he lose his entitlements? I presume you have to be carrying on some type of farming to hold onto your entitlements.

Username John

foxy farmer wrote: »

Just curious on one small issue. If the OP walked into a new career and let the farm for a few years would he lose his entitlements? I presume you have to be carrying on some type of farming to hold onto your entitlements.

I think they can lease them out, at least until the next CAP reform...

And then its all up in the air as to what will happen.

I would have thought with cows, the SFP might not be too high anyways?

kowtow

Willfarman wrote: »

A wonderful opportunity. The right candidate just needs a few less brain cells than yourself to be blinded to the reason why the place is being set... And then try and work even harder than a bloody good operator who is increasing his nett worth with any land improvements etc.
He or she will possess their own wellies and to not only generate a income for themselves but the rent/ rates too.. Teagasc or the farmers journal term such a candidate as a dynamic, progressive individual with a passion for driving on.. But in these parts they'd be termed as being "a bit soft".

But if you find such an individual you are indeed elected.

Oh I don't know.

If I wanted to be long 100 cows and short land on the basis that I would be able to buy it cheaper in the future, then leasing would be a perfect option.

And if your post is correct in it's assumptions, that is exactly what I would want.

pedigree 6

fepper wrote: »

He did say what he was making out of it wasn't worth the hours and hard work he was putting into it

I'd say his mind is milking cows 24 hours a day since he was born there.

You need a break in the day and variety to last.
Otherwise you're phucked.

Play golf, follow the kids sports, join the Masons, do something different to get your mojo back.:D

Mooooo

Would switching to once a day milking herd help? Or something along those lines, switching the system.up a bit? I'd have reservations in robots but there is a whole thread on that somewhere,

whelan2

pedigree 6 wrote: »

I'd say his mind is milking cows 24 hours a day since he was born there.

You need a break in the day and variety to last.
Otherwise you're phucked.

Play golf, follow the kids sports, join the Masons, do something different to get your mojo back.:D

Holidays,holidays,holidays. I live for them. When I am totally knackered at this time of year I book my holiday and count down until I am getting away. Being very bold this year and have 4 breaks booked. When you come back you feel so much better about everything

UrbanFret

With Brexit on the horizon there could be big changes in farming on the way. If the markets collapse what will happen then, Australia and new Zealand are all geared up to flood the British market with beef and lamb( not to mention the south americans). Dairy products likely to suffer too. Who knows whats just over the horizon. It's going to be a gamble for the OP either way. Stick or twist. I'd be inclined to sit tight and hope there may be some scheme where there may be a payment for not producing milk.

Who2

Get someone in to help for a while, I know personally if I spend a couple of days just farming on my own, that I go half cracked. Getting back into the full time job with a couple of us insulting and winding each other up seems to get me back on track. Even if your helper is only breaking even, a fresh bit of company during the week helps keep you sane.

pedigree 6

whelan2 wrote: »

Holidays,holidays,holidays. I live for them. When I am totally knackered at this time of year I book my holiday and count down until I am getting away. Being very bold this year and have 4 breaks booked. When you come back you feel so much better about everything

Don't telI me your house is in the yard and all.

cute geoge

Willfarman wrote: »

I don't dispute that the op is making money. He owns the land, he has low debt and runs a good show. And is ****ed up with the long hours and hard work.
Now a new entrant has all the same hours and a few more and has to find rent and rates before they take a bob themselves.. A wonderful opportunity.. And yes I agree it's a good way to go for the op.

But with regard to lads or lassies looking to get a crust in this manner well as the saying goes, some mothers do ave em!

That is some pessimistic post ,with that outlook no young farmer should bother getting out of bed in the morning .
Well i am not a man who agrees with all this mad expansion by lads but i do know a couple of new entrants who started off from scratch who have build up to 100 cows on leased ground in 5/6 years.These lads are mighty operators and have left all the naysayers dumbfounded .Hard work won't coward any lad with ambition and ability once he has a spring in his step.

patsy_mccabe

cute geoge wrote: »

......These lads are mighty operators and have left all the naysayers dumbfounded .Hard work won't coward any lad with ambition and ability once he has a spring in his step.

Reminds me of the young up and coming GAA stars that are playing on 5 different teams and then they get injured or just plain burnt out.

Grueller

Have to agree with Willfarman and Patsy here. There are so many better options out there. As a young lad I was, and probably still am, farming mad. I also recognised that I could not make a living out of it so got a good education and good off farm employment. I farmed away on a part time basis and built up my stock on rented ground. Made no money from it but did build up stock.
Before I was 30 I had my house built and had bought 50ish acres.
Could I have done this by farming full-time on rented ground? Like hell I could.
Any young lad would be mad to take on a dairy farm with big rent and be a slave to it. Dairy land around here is making €300 an acre. Pay that rent and try to pay stocking loans or even do partnership and give back 50% of profits? Sorry lads, there are a lot better options out there for young lads Imo. My nephew is 22, bought a lorry that can be converted from tipper to mixer to block lorry. Never idle, not afraid of work and is actually making fat more than that dairy partnership could for him. He also has 45 acres rented and keeps 30 suckler on this. Better option Imo.

Calfscour

Alright lads, thanks for all the replies some good suggestions in there. I've opened a can of worms here I'd say with this topic. But you never hear farmers discuss this option in the open so this thread might help a few others then myself.

Just to clear up a few issues. Robots not an option farm is split by small country roads. I've a newish parlour 16 units all the bells and whistles to make life easy. Calf feeder in the calf shed its an old John field one but a great job dumpline goes straight into it.

Once a day was something I researched alright but I've black and white cows so would have to start cross breeding to achieve this which takes time or buy in, no money to go that road.

Renting could be an option but I could be a cranky landlord!!! On the money side of things by the time I've everything and everyone paid there ain't a whole pile left for myself, so in a way yes the farm is making money it's just if I had to pay myself say €15/hr there is no way I could do it and still pay everyone. That's what I mean by saying the return for the hrs worked isn't worth it.

I know some fellas might be reading this and wondering what I'm complaining about I've good facilities and so on but it's time I don't have. OH going out with friends next weekend so now have to scramble around for a babysitter to sleep over with the kids as I'm up the walls now. It's the small stuff like that for example that is making me question this whole thing.

Siamsa Sessions

Calfscour wrote: »

OH going out with friends next weekend so now have to scramble around for a babysitter to sleep over with the kids as I'm up the walls now. It's the small stuff like that for example that is making me question this whole thing.

You're getting to the heart of it now. What job would you do if you did sell the cows? What would next weekend look like then?

I'm not saying you should sell them - just sharing the kind of questions I'm asking myself now re moving back into farming full-time. E.g. What effect would a different job have on your family?