EU Petitions Committee has accepted the Unfair Irish Motor Tax petition

billybonkers

https://www.change.org/p/unfair-car-tax-law/u/18856427?tk=077jaLmaXKzOX-dcJfnUuh8f2kinLDQWTRP2rb6YlQ0&utm_source=petition_update&utm_medium=email

"22 DEC 2016 — EU Petitions Committee has accepted the Unfair Irish Motor Tax petition for Investigation. This is an endorsement of you and all the 29,500 signatories of the petition at https://www.change.org/p/unfair-car-tax-law

EU Petition original text:
Economic injustice due to maladministration in Ireland of the EU Carbon & Water directive causing a Two Tier Motor Tax system where owners of older (pre-2008) cars pay, typically, 3 TIMES more annual motor tax than those who can afford new cars (€700 v €280 p.a.). €439 million from Motor tax is used each year to fund Irish water, thus, ALSO subsidising water charges of those who can afford new cars.

This Irish law, in response to EU directives, is a serious maladministration and is totally unacceptable. UK MPs refused to implement this (equivalent) law in 2004 and it was amended to represent the legitimate wishes of their UK electorate and delivered fairness.

13,000 (now 29,500) have signed the Unjust Irish Car Tax petition calling for a fair just Irish motor tax system at:

https://www.change.org/p/unfair-car-tax-law

Unnecessary passing of "regressive" tax laws in Ireland has caused political reactions in the streets and social divisions and hardship to lower socio economic groups.

Progressive, appropriate, fair and moderate tax laws to fund public services and meet EU directives are acceptable."

Not sure if anything will come of this but compelling points no doubt!

colm_mcm

There's only one thing for it. Increase co2 rates.

Stravos Murphy

OSI wrote: »

So, if this goes anywhere, where do we pull the ~€439 million that currently goes to funding Irish Water, given no one wants to pay for it directly?

Let's get concerned about Irish Water why?

ct5amr2ig1nfhp

"€439 million from Motor tax is used each year to fund Irish water". Where did that figure come from?

BrokenArrows

Anakin Great Polyester wrote: »

"€439 million from Motor tax is used each year to fund Irish water". Where did that figure come from?

Here is one location. Dont know how reliable it is or where they got their data.

https://www.fiannafail.ie/motor-tax-money-spent-on-irish-water-as-roads-washed-away-ff/

Carpentry

the roads are in bits and the water is just about good enough to be drinkable ... yeah, so where the fcuking money goes ?!?!

Stravos Murphy

Carpentry wrote: »

the roads are in bits and the water is just about good enough to be drinkable ... yeah, so where the fcuking money goes ?!?!

Funding Irish Water wages it seems.

pa990

There are a number of solutions.

1) flat rate of motor tax for everyone.
2) increase co2 rates of motor tax
3) put everyone back onto cc rates

The following options will never happen.

1) incorporating motor tax into fuel price
2) reducing cc rates

colm_mcm

colm_mcm wrote: »

There's only one thing for it. Increase co2 rates.

Yep,
no way they will drop the pre 08 cars

Cuddlesworth

Jesus, what a load of rhetoric.

We pay Tax, that Tax goes into a pot and services get assigned money out of it. Irish water cost us before and its costs us now. They pulled that figure out of their asses.

Blazer

Cuddlesworth wrote: »

Jesus, what a load of rhetoric.

We pay Tax, that Tax goes into a pot and services get assigned money out of it. Irish water cost us before and its costs us now. They pulled that figure out of their asses.

You do know they pulled 650million out of the motor fund to help set up Irish Water??
The government are getting approx 5.5 billion a year from motorists on vrt, excise, tax, etc etc.. so its no stretch of the imagination to think they're pulling more money from the fund to keep Irish water going.
The problem is the motorists and PAYE workers are keeping this country on it's toes...barely.
We have people that won't pay for water,,,in fact won't pay for anything and Sinn Fein publicly supports these people. We have unions who think the country is a gravy train and have no compunction in holding the country to ransom to pay for these pay rises or as some people call them "restoration of pay".
I won't even get into the government, the Dail and the Senate who are completely overpaid buffoons who don't known their ass from their elbow but sure as hell know how to expense..

bear1

I can't see what the eu can actually do here.
They have no say in how much the government charges it's citizens for motor tax.
If they stick all cars on co2 rates from say the year 2000 then maybe but owning a luxobarge prior to 08 will be a bitch

bmwguy

Carpentry wrote: »

the roads are in bits and the water is just about good enough to be drinkable ... yeah, so where the fcuking money goes ?!?!

The roads are generally not all in bits and the water is generally very drinkable. Obvious exceptions but for 95% of population they drive on good roads and drink good water

Carpentry

bmwguy wrote: »

The roads are generally not all in bits and the water is generally very drinkable. Obvious exceptions but for 95% of population they drive on good roads and drink good water

yeah, yeah, yeah ... 95%

So how come on 100 meters stretch of the street there is about 10 potholes, usually badly fixed road surface after mounting the water meters ?

bear1

Carpentry wrote: »

yeah, yeah, yeah ... 95%

So how come on 100 meters stretch of the street there is about 10 potholes, usually badly fixed road surface after mounting the water meters ?

Which Street? There is more than one..

Dartz

billybonkers wrote: »

https://www.change.org/p/unfair-car-tax-law/u/18856427?tk=077jaLmaXKzOX-dcJfnUuh8f2kinLDQWTRP2rb6YlQ0&utm_source=petition_update&utm_medium=email

"22 DEC 2016 — EU Petitions Committee has accepted the Unfair Irish Motor Tax petition for Investigation. This is an endorsement of you and all the 29,500 signatories of the petition at https://www.change.org/p/unfair-car-tax-law

EU Petition original text:
Economic injustice due to maladministration in Ireland of the EU Carbon & Water directive causing a Two Tier Motor Tax system where owners of older (pre-2008) cars pay, typically, 3 TIMES more annual motor tax than those who can afford new cars (€700 v €280 p.a.). €439 million from Motor tax is used each year to fund Irish water, thus, ALSO subsidising water charges of those who can afford new cars.

This Irish law, in response to EU directives, is a serious maladministration and is totally unacceptable. UK MPs refused to implement this (equivalent) law in 2004 and it was amended to represent the legitimate wishes of their UK electorate and delivered fairness.

13,000 (now 29,500) have signed the Unjust Irish Car Tax petition calling for a fair just Irish motor tax system at:

https://www.change.org/p/unfair-car-tax-law

Unnecessary passing of "regressive" tax laws in Ireland has caused political reactions in the streets and social divisions and hardship to lower socio economic groups.

Progressive, appropriate, fair and moderate tax laws to fund public services and meet EU directives are acceptable."

Not sure if anything will come of this but compelling points no doubt!

If they move my car to the Co2 system, I'm ****ed. It'd more than trippel.

ct5amr2ig1nfhp

Thanks but IMO I wouldnt call that a reliable source. Was trying to find the source of the €€€ figure but seems to be next to impossible.

Roads around my area are completely f**ked. The irony is that most of the damage has been caused by Irish Water.

BrokenArrows wrote: »

Here is one location. Dont know how reliable it is or where they got their data.

https://www.fiannafail.ie/motor-tax-money-spent-on-irish-water-as-roads-washed-away-ff/

grogi

billybonkers wrote: »

13,000 (now 29,500) have signed the Unjust Irish Car Tax petition calling for a fair just Irish motor tax system at /.../

I wish the people who signed the petition (I guess majority of them driving an older vehicle) checked how much would they pay on the CO2 scale...

I have the feeling than not many - the change would typically be beneficial for pre 2008 Prius owners, not many other cars...

colm_mcm

grogi wrote: »

I wish the people who signed the petition (I guess majority of them driving an older vehicle) checked how much would they pay on the CO2 scale...

I have the feeling than not many - the change would typically be beneficial for pre 2008 Prius owners, not many other cars...

And most diesel cars.

The micra drivers that would have to pay €390 and €570 on their 1.0 misery boxes would be on to Joe!

Toyotafanboi

colm_mcm wrote: »

And most diesel cars.

The micra drivers that would have to pay €390 and €570 on their 1.0 misery boxes would be on to Joe!

And pre 2008 Civic owners, who would drop from 640 to 390 :pac:

grogi

colm_mcm wrote: »

And most diesel cars.

Agreed, but not universally... E90 320d would be better on CO2 (710 vs 390), but PreLCI E60 520d not (IIRC 710 vs 750). BMW engines have always been extremely frugal, I would expect much worse figures for other manufacturers...

newacc2015

Blazer wrote: »

The government are getting approx 5.5 billion a year from motorists on vrt, excise, tax, etc etc.. so its no stretch of the imagination to think they're pulling more money from the fund to keep Irish water going.
The problem is the motorists and PAYE workers are keeping this country on it's toes...barely.

Do you know what the taxes on cars from VAT, VRT and excise is so high? Although you think income tax is keeping the Government flush, low income taxes are the reason why indirect taxes are so high. Income tax a percentage of total tax take in Ireland is ridiculously low for an European nation. Around half of Irish workers pay no income tax and top 10% pay 70% of all income tax. When you have such low income tax take relative to most of Europe, you have to get money elsewhere ie from indirect taxes like VAT, excise

All taxation is thrown into a pot and expenditure is taken out of it. Yes money for IW is coming from tax take, but it is for everything else too.

colm_mcm

grogi wrote: »

Agreed, but not universally... E90 320d would be better on CO2 (710 vs 390), but PreLCI E60 520d not (IIRC 710 vs 750). BMW engines have always been extremely frugal, I would expect much worse figures for other manufacturers...

Yeah but your bread and butter Passat/avensiss and anything smaller would almost all go down.

grogi

colm_mcm wrote: »

Yeah but your bread and butter Passat/avensiss and anything smaller would almost all go down.

How many of them diesel are in the road anyway?

colm_mcm

New car sales were always in a petrol majority before 08, but keep in mind there are a lot of pre 08 diesels imported from the uk that are still knocking around.

Moot point though, it's never going to happen. They won't just give money away. They couldn't get away with hiking the other half up to co2 tax either.

Blazer

newacc2015 wrote: »

Do you know what the taxes on cars from VAT, VRT and excise is so high? Although you think income tax is keeping the Government flush, low income taxes are the reason why indirect taxes are so high. Income tax a percentage of total tax take in Ireland is ridiculously low for an European nation. Around half of Irish workers pay no income tax and top 10% pay 70% of all income tax. When you have such low income tax take relative to most of Europe, you have to get money elsewhere ie from indirect taxes like VAT, excise

All taxation is thrown into a pot and expenditure is taken out of it. Yes money for IW is coming from tax take, but it is for everything else too.

I'm not arguing with you on those points..I completely agree with the concept of USC which is everyone pays a little bit. I pay the high rate of tax and it annoys me when people complain about it considering how fair it is.
While our high rate has too low any entry compared to europe the lower paid taxes as you rightly point on are ridiculously small.
If anything more taxes like USC and we can increase the threshold for the higher rates to take the burden off the working/middle class etc.

ozmo

I agree is very unfair - I drive a car from from the last Millennium...

But if this succeeds - all that will happen is the 2008+ cars will pay a higher tax - not us paying lower
- similar to the guy who forced Women to pay same insurance costs - Men didn't get cheaper Insurance like he thought - that law helped noone.

jackofalltrades

That petition has to be the biggest pile of shíté I've read in a while, it's a good argument for being able to negatively sign petitions.
It's like they got the lunatic socialist who goes to every protest to right down all their thoughts.

murphym7

Economic injustice due to maladministration in Ireland of the EU Carbon & Water directive causing a Two Tier Motor Tax system where owners of older (pre-2008) cars pay, typically, 3 TIMES more annual motor tax than those who can afford new cars

I'd buy that argument a few years ago, I don't think it holds much water now. Nobody is asking anyone to buy a new car, a 9 year old car would do just fine.

colm_mcm

These is still quite a premium to get into a chape tax car.
Even still. The cc rates need to be looked at. The cheapest 1.0 rate should be raised a bit for a start.

robtri

from what i heard they looking to have th new tax raised and the old lowered ... to be more balanced

dzwx

22 DEC 2016 — EU Petitions Committee has accepted the Unfair Irish Motor Tax petition for Investigation. This is an endorsement of you and all the 29,500 signatories of the petition.

More here:
https://www.change.org/p/unfair-car-tax-law

there is a hope:rolleyes:

pa990

murphym7 wrote: »

Economic injustice due to maladministration in Ireland of the EU Carbon & Water directive causing a Two Tier Motor Tax system where owners of older (pre-2008) cars pay, typically, 3 TIMES more annual motor tax than those who can afford new cars

I'd buy that argument a few years ago, I don't think it holds much water now. Nobody is asking anyone to buy a new car, a 9 year old car would do just fine.

2008 is hardly a NEW car

dzwx wrote: »

22 DEC 2016 — EU Petitions Committee has accepted the Unfair Irish Motor Tax petition for Investigation. This is an endorsement of you and all the 29,500 signatories of the petition.

More here:
https://www.change.org/p/unfair-car-tax-law

there is a hope:rolleyes:

Just wait till they do away with motor tax, because of the increase of electric cars.

Governments will be loosing out in fuel duties, they cant tax electricity as heavily as petrol/diesel, so welcome a whole new raft of registration and motoring taxes

cantdecide

I think it's obvious that we all need to pay our tax. The problem is that on a family that earns €45k, to pay €600/yr for motor tax. The neighbour across the way might be buying a car costing more than the first family earns in a year and the neighbour will be paying a third of the motor tax. It really is unfair in principle. No one's going to die over the disparity but it just doesn't stack up.

They know that low rates stimulates car sales for many people buying a necessary family hatch but don't know anything about cars (people are thick enough to fall for paying a ball of VRT to save hundred or two in annual motor tax).

They'd rather encourage the sale of A LOT of diesel focuses than a half dozen beemers. The whole exercise is a cynical model that drives new car sales and kills perfectly serviceable cars to keep the Irish and EU govt hooked on dependable VRT from the large middle classes and to hell with the environment.

Guy:Incognito

The UK have a disparity too , from around 2001 iirc. So hardly a new issue in Europe.

colm_mcm

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

The UK have a disparity too , from around 2001 iirc. So hardly a new issue in Europe.

I don't t think there's much people in the U.K. giving about a max of £230 tax on their old system.

ei9go

Why not put them all the co2 system?

Be careful what you wish for.

Do you remember the petrol Quashqui's they had to try and sell off with 570 Euro road tax on the co2 system and the Auris's with similar problems in 2009.

The co2 data is there since 2000 ish.

bear1

Lower the cc rates and increase the co2 rates.

duffman3833

bear1 wrote: »

Lower the cc rates and increase the co2 rates.

that would be the way to go but i cant see that happening

BorneTobyWilde

Car is a car, 90% have a car through need. They should not worry about engine size, if they want a big engine so what, car tax should be same. The people with bigger engines burn more fuel and pay more tax anyway. Should be encouraging people to drive v8's as they will need to burn more fuel. The emissions out of a new diesel golf are more dangerous to a person than the emissions out of a 1980's V8 .
Ban diesels and bring back the big petrol engines and a car is a car. All should be a fair rate.
If one car is 150 and another bigger engine car is 850 then that's 1k , so why not just have them both at 500, still the same revenue.
500 a year for every car is fair tax.

CiniO

cantdecide wrote: »

I think it's obvious that we all need to pay our tax. .

No, it's not obvious.
Motortax is completely unnecessry thing, and it originates from times where cars were luxury very few could afford.
These days where car is common, and most people own one, motor tax doesn't make sense.

Plenty of countries in the world, which don't charge any motor tax.

BorneTobyWilde

Flat rate car tax is what's needed
The fuel duty per year in in the 1000's
If you burn 100 litres of fuel per week that's roughly 60.00 euro a week duty/tax plus vat on top at 23%
60+ 23%= 73.8 x 52 weeks in year is 3837.60 is that not enough tax to pay already.

Why not just put 3 cent more on the fuel and be done with it. Do away with that piece of paper in window. Would save on administrations costs too. Plus no way to avoid the tax. Then ban diesels on top of it. Let the manufactures come up with fuel efficient petrol cars for those who want them.

edburg

I cant see it changing anything to be honest, those who bought a car specificly to avoid higher tax will be up in arms with there own petition.

But a simpler flat rate tax band of say 500 euro for your diesel/petrol cars would seem fair or even better extra 5c on fuel most likely cover it maybe more, there be no tax dodgers this way. Couriers/transport companies be up in arms then though admittedly unless they get some sort of VAT refund payment on there fuel to ease there worries.

FishOnABike

pa990 wrote: »

There are a number of solutions.

1) flat rate of motor tax for everyone.
2) increase co2 rates of motor tax
3) put everyone back onto cc rates

The following options will never happen.

1) incorporating motor tax into fuel price
2) reducing cc rates

Another option would be to charge by weight. Heavier vehicles would be in a heavier weight category and pay higher tax. This would apply evenly irrespective of the age of the car.

More fuel efficient cars would still be incentivised by the savings they make in fuel costs, as would lower annual mileage / low useage cars.

cantdecide

CiniO wrote: »

No, it's not obvious.
Motortax is completely unnecessry thing, and it originates from times where cars were luxury very few could afford.
These days where car is common, and most people own one, motor tax doesn't make sense.

Plenty of countries in the world, which don't charge any motor tax.

Agreed. I mean we all need to pay tax in general. I think that compared to Europe, we must be among the most taxed per driver for the privilege necessity of driving on our island with dispersed population.

grogi

cantdecide wrote: »

Agreed. I mean we all need to pay tax in general. I think that compared to Europe, we must be among the most taxed per driver for the privilege necessity of driving on our island with dispersed population.

The majority of people in Ireland would pay much higher income tax if they earned it somewhere else.

Titzon Toast

God I really hope something comes out of this.
It's ridiculous how much it costs me to tax my old Prelude in this country.
As a petrol head, it kills me to think of all the lovely big engined cars left to rot because of our horrible motor tax system.
I'd love to see 20 year old cars have their tax rates halved on their way to the vintage cut off of 30 years.
Wishful thinking, I know.

grogi

Titzon Toast wrote: »

God I really hope something comes out of this.
It's ridiculous how much it costs me to tax my old Prelude in this country.
As a petrol head, it kills me to think of all the lovely big engined cars left to rot because of our horrible motor tax system.
I'd love to see 20 year old cars have their tax rates halved on their way to the vintage cut off of 30 years.
Wishful thinking, I know.

But old cars are so cheap mainly because of the tax. If the tax was much lower on them, you would not afford a Prelude - it would be many times more expensive.

So people want to have cake and eat cake - keep low prices of cars with high tax and reduce the tax at the same time...

mikeecho

CiniO wrote: »

No, it's not obvious.
Motortax is completely unnecessry thing, and it originates from times where cars were luxury very few could afford.
These days where car is common, and most people own one, motor tax doesn't make sense.

Plenty of countries in the world, which don't charge any motor tax.

Motor tax, is a tax on having a car.
It goes to a central fund.

It's general taxation..

Your motor tax goes into a fund that pays for everything from emergency services to social services, and everything in between.

rex-x

edburg wrote: »

I cant see it changing anything to be honest, those who bought a car specificly to avoid higher tax will be up in arms with there own petition.

But a simpler flat rate tax band of say 500 euro for your diesel/petrol cars would seem fair or even better extra 5c on fuel most likely cover it maybe more, there be no tax dodgers this way. Couriers/transport companies be up in arms then though admittedly unless they get some sort of VAT refund payment on there fuel to ease there worries.

Anyone who did this is so thick that their opinion doesn't count.

mikeecho

rex-x wrote: »

Anyone who did this is so thick that their opinion doesn't count.

Tax on fuel is a non runner, what happens when electric cars become popular...

A yearly registration tax (Motor tax) is what will (is) what we have in store