Overseas landlord query please.

Graces7

Would be grateful for a knowledgeable answer please.

I booked this house via an agent,and paid deposit and first month's rent to them as they asked. The letter said I must pay on a set day by direct debit.

Set up the standing order and it went through.

The landlord lives abroad.

Just had an email from the agent telling me to pay the landlord direct now, into an Irish bank account so am wondering? Is this usual? I thought the agent would go on handling the landlord's account etc?

Gumbo

Graces7 wrote: »

Would be grateful for a knowledgeable answer please.

I booked this house via an agent,and paid deposit and first month's rent to them as they asked. The letter said I must pay on a set day by direct debit.

Set up the standing order and it went through.

The landlord lives abroad.

Just had an email from the agent telling me to pay the landlord direct now, into an Irish bank account so am wondering? Is this usual? I thought the agent would go on handling the landlord's account etc?

Agents offer 2 services.

The complete Package : Rental advertisement, tenant screening and viewing, management of property - all for a monthly fee (usually one months rent per year)

Letting Arrangement : They advertise, arrange viewings, screen tenants, organize deposits etc etc and then they step back.

Paulw

Maybe the landlord is no longer using the services of the agent.

Also, if your landlord is overseas, then it is your legal obligation to withhold 20% in tax, to be paid to the Revenue.

murphaph

If the agent is not acting as an agent for the remainder of the tenancy then you need to ask who is because in the absence of an agent, the tenant is obliged to deduct 20% of the rent and forward to revenue, furnishing the LL with a form R185 promptly at the start of each new tax year.

Mrs OBumble

Yes, it is quite normal: LL's fire their agents all the time.

By comparison for the house I own overseas, the law in that country now requires me to have a local agent. But there is no such law in Ireland and LL's can choose to manage aspects of the tenancy themselves.

But as others have stated, you do need to be sure that the LL understands your tax obligations.

If you are not paying tax otherwise, then you should contact Revenue and ask how they want to handle getting the cash from you.

And of course it's more complicated because you are on RA ... I guess that means the County Council also has send 20% of their contribution to the LL. Perhaps you would be better to talk to them before you talk to Revenue, to see how they've handled it for other people. (It won't be the first time they've had this situation.)

Graces7

The agent has told me in writing to send the full rent to the landlord at her Irish bank account.

Peregrinus

Graces7 wrote: »

The agent has told me in writing to send the full rent to the landlord at her Irish bank account.

Maybe she did, but do not rely on the agent to advise you on your obligations under Irish tax law. The agent does not act for you or in your interests.

Contact the Revenue and they advise that you need to withhold 20% of the rent and send it to them (whcih I think they will) then reply to the agent saying you'll be lodging 80% of the rent to the nominated account and sending the remaning 20% to the Revenue.

Expect a notice of arrears if you pay 80% of the rent.

Browney7

Coen Glamorous Manicurist wrote: »

Expect a notice of arrears if you pay 80% of the rent.

Or expect the landlord to know the rules associated with being an overseas landlord.....

blindside88

Op is it possible that the landlord is moving back to Ireland and therefore wants the money paid into his/her account as they will be replacing the agent going forward

76544567

What happens with an landlord living overseas, who comes home to Ireland and and revenue come looking for the tax that should have been paid by the tenant. Say after 5 years living in the property the tenant hasnt been paying the tax, but has just moved off to Timbuktu forever.
Is the landlord liable?

Browney7

Browney7 wrote: »

Or expect the landlord to know the rules associated with being an overseas landlord.....

How does the tenant know that the LL isn't looking after their own tax affairs.

Because people are actually hearing about this 20% deduction rule I've seen one or two LL recently make sure the tenants don't known they live abroad, I'd expect more LL to do the same as time goes on.

Browney7

Coen Glamorous Manicurist wrote: »

How does the tenant know that the LL isn't looking after their own tax affairs.

Because people are actually hearing about this 20% deduction rule I've seen one or two LL recently make sure the tenants don't known they live abroad, I'd expect more LL to do the same as time goes on.

Even if the landlord is fully tax compliant it's cut and dry, if you are paying rent to a bank account of a landlord who's place of abode is overseas you as the tenant have to pay 20% of the rent to Revenue.

These are the rules, landlords may not like them but they are the rules of the game. Hard to know how revenue will know but you bring a whole world of pain on yourself messing with them

Lumen

Coen Glamorous Manicurist wrote: »

How does the tenant know that the LL isn't looking after their own tax affairs.

Because people are actually hearing about this 20% deduction rule I've seen one or two LL recently make sure the tenants don't known they live abroad, I'd expect more LL to do the same as time goes on.

Equally, I would expect tenants to seek a statement from the landlord that they do not live abroad, in order to protect themselves against Revenue liability.

Sarn

Hopefully a lease has been signed. Otherwise I wouldn't be very comfortable raising this with a non-resident LL before Part IV rights have been obtained. While there is a requirement to retain 20% for revenue, a request to vacate the property, for some reason, could be received because the tenant is 'being difficult'.

listermint

Lumen wrote: »

Equally, I would expect tenants to seek a statement from the landlord that they do not live abroad, in order to protect themselves against Revenue liability.

No no it's cool for tenants to be complicit in tax avoidance.

That right nox? Because you are skirting around the issue.

Browney7

Browney7 wrote: »

Even if the landlord is fully tax compliant it's cut and dry, if you are paying rent to a bank account of a landlord who's place of abode is overseas you as the tenant have to pay 20% of the rent to Revenue.

These are the rules, landlords may not like them but they are the rules of the game. Hard to know how revenue will know but you bring a whole world of pain on yourself messing with them

You see that incorrect it's if they are tax resident outside Ireland for a start so straight away we have a flaw in the withholding rent.

listermint wrote: »

No no it's cool for tenants to be complicit in tax avoidance.

That right nox? Because you are skirting around the issue.

If a LL wants to dodge tax that's his business a tenant should mind their own or move.

amcalester

Coen Glamorous Manicurist wrote: »

You see that incorrect it's if they are tax resident outside Ireland for a start so straight away we have a flaw in the withholding rent.


If a LL wants to dodge tax that's his business a tenant should mind their own or move.

Not when the tenant is the one the revenue will chase for the money.

amcalester

amcalester wrote: »

Not when the tenant is the one the revenue will chase for the money.

I agree it's a ridiculous rule and from my understanding one which revenue never enforce.

listermint

Coen Glamorous Manicurist wrote: »

You see that incorrect it's if they are tax resident outside Ireland for a start so straight away we have a flaw in the withholding rent.


If a LL wants to dodge tax that's his business a tenant should mind their own or move.

Solid advice nox.


Not.

athtrasna

Mod note

If you have an issue with a post please use the report post function.

Browney7

Coen Glamorous Manicurist wrote: »

You see that incorrect it's if they are tax resident outside Ireland for a start so straight away we have a flaw in the withholding rent.


If a LL wants to dodge tax that's his business a tenant should mind their own or move.

http://www.revenue.ie/en/about/foi/s16/income-tax-capital-gains-tax-corporation-tax/part-45/45-01-04.pdf?download=true

amcalester

Coen Glamorous Manicurist wrote: »

I agree it's a ridiculous rule and from my understanding one which revenue never enforce.

Well there's one way to ensure you're not the first...

Browney7

Browney7 wrote: »

http://www.revenue.ie/en/about/foi/s16/income-tax-capital-gains-tax-corporation-tax/part-45/45-01-04.pdf?download=true

Non-resident means not tax resident, even if the wording is a bit unclear there is no way a person who's salary is paid to them in Ireland and they pay Irish income tax on it has to be treated as a non resident LL if they live abroad.

amcalester wrote: »

Well there's one way to ensure you're not the first...

Most tenants of non-resident LLs don't even know they are non-resident somit would be next to impossible to find against a tenant imo.

amcalester

Coen Glamorous Manicurist wrote: »

Most tenants of non-resident LLs don't even know they are non-resident somit would be next to impossible to find against a tenant imo.

The OP does though.

Why take the risk?

Mrs OBumble

Coen Glamorous Manicurist wrote: »

I agree it's a ridiculous rule and from my understanding one which revenue never enforce.

Not true.

Mrs OBumble

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

Not true.

It being ridicilous or the non-enformemt as if it's the latter you will need to show some proof.

76544567

Coen Glamorous Manicurist wrote: »

Most tenants of non-resident LLs don't even know they are non-resident somit would be next to impossible to find against a tenant imo.

So when revenue come knocking and the tenant has left the country never to return, who pays.

76544567

76544567 wrote: »

So when revenue come knocking and the tenant has left the country never to return, who pays.

It's the LL they should be following, it crazy to expect tenants to enforce tax law expexially as 95% of people don't even know they are supposed to. The only reason I ever heard about it was reading about it in this forum.

76544567

Coen Glamorous Manicurist wrote: »

It's the LL they should be following, it crazy to expect tenants to enforce tax law expexially as 95% of people don't even know they are supposed to. The only reason I ever heard about it was reading about it in this forum.

If that's the case then the landlord should make sure the tenant withholds no more eyes for tax, if living a road.

Peregrinus

76544567 wrote: »

So when revenue come knocking and the tenant has left the country never to return, who pays.

The landlord pays.

The 20% payment by the tenant is received by the Revenue on account of the landlord's liability to Irish income tax. If, in fact, he has no income tax liability, or his liability is less than the amount received from the tenant, the landlord gets a full or partial refund from the Revenue; if his liablity exceeds what the tenant has paid over, the landlord is liable for the difference.

The tenant has a secondary liability. If it comes to the Revenue's attention that the tenant hasn't been withholding (and the tenant is still around) the Revenue can chase the tenant for the amount that should have been withheld.

Mrs OBumble

Coen Glamorous Manicurist wrote: »

It being ridicilous or the non-enformemt as if it's the latter you will need to show some proof.

The non enforcement.

I have 100% knowledge that if revenue know your LL lives overseas they will adjust your tax credits so that the 20% is physically given to them via the PAYE system.

Of course it becomes less likely that they will know as the rental tax credit applies to fewer and fewer people. But on the other hand as property tax is collected thru PAYE as well, its likely theyll find ways of knowing.

4ensic15

Coen Glamorous Manicurist wrote: »

I agree it's a ridiculous rule and from my understanding one which revenue never enforce.

It is enforced.
http://www.irishtimes.com/news/tenants-liable-to-pay-tax-for-non-resident-landlords-1.893692
http://www.ombudsman.gov.ie/en/Publications/Annual-Reports/2009-Annual-Report/annualreport2009/chapter6.html

JustAThought

Landlord/eatate/management agent relationships change - perhaps they moved back; change of job or contract came to an end, perhaps they became aware of the increasing risk of the EA going bust or taking the rent and going off with it & figured why take the risk. Either way I'd be ignoring the barrack room talk & making sure you pay the full rent due - you will look like an awful idiot in court saying I thought I had to manage my Landlords tax affairs with revenue for him - or - someone on the internet told me to do it - it was just resting in my account.

There are countries you will will never be allowed visit and jobs you will never be able to take across whole industries if you have a financial or criminal case against your Name.

4ensic15

JustAThought wrote: »

ll/EA relationships change - perhaps they moved back; change of job or contract came to an end, perhaps they became aware of the increasing risknof EA giing bust or taking the rent and going off with it & figured why take the risk. Either way I'd be ignoring the barrack room talk & making sure you pay the full rent due - you will look like an awful idiot in court saying I thought I had to manage my Landlords tax affairs with revenue for him - or - someone on the internet told me to do it - it was just resting in my account.

You will look like an awful idiot if you have to pay extra tax to the Revenue.

Mrs OBumble

Graces7 wrote: »

The agent has told me in writing to send the full rent to the landlord at her Irish bank account.

Tell the agent that you are happy to do this, but that you need them to give you the landlord's address in writing. You are entitled to know the LL's address.

If they give you an Irish address, then deposit the full rent. (It's not your job to validate that the address is correct).

If they give you an overseas address, then deposit 80%, and write to the LL at the address confirming what you have done.




NB Not legal advice,just my take. Maybe you want to ask Threshold too ...

CIARAN_BOYLE

No matter where you live if you are a landlord in receipt of rental income from an Irish asset you must file an Irish tax return.

So the landlord must file a tax return.

When they do so they will get credit for any payments made by the tennant. No extra tax is being paid. As long as you stay within the rules. If you step outside the rules as a tennant Revenue can choose to penalise you. Will they? If they decide to sure.

I've seen a case where a non resident landlord filed 4 years tax returns claiming that what they received was 80% of the agreed rent and they wanted credit for the 20% deducted. Tennant protested that they didn't know landlord was non resident and they were paying 100% of the agreed rent to landlord every month.

No written lease stating the rent. Revenue chose to agree with the landlord leaving the tennant owning money.

Paulw

JustAThought wrote: »

Either way I'd be ignoring the barrack room talk & making sure you pay the full rent due - you will look like an awful idiot in court saying I thought I had to manage my Landlords tax affairs with revenue for him - or - someone on the internet told me to do it - it was just resting in my account.

Try doing some research, rather than giving false advice.

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/housing/renting_a_home/tax_relief_for_tenants.html

You will find the same info, in more detail, on the Revenue site, with the full statute.

It is the legal obligation of the tenant to withhold 20% of the rent, and pay to the Revenue if the landlord is non-resident.

Peregrinus

JustAThought wrote: »

Landlord/eatate/management agent relationships change - perhaps they moved back; change of job or contract came to an end, perhaps they became aware of the increasing risk of the EA going bust or taking the rent and going off with it & figured why take the risk. Either way I'd be ignoring the barrack room talk & making sure you pay the full rent due - you will look like an awful idiot in court saying I thought I had to manage my Landlords tax affairs with revenue for him - or - someone on the internet told me to do it - it was just resting in my account.

There are countries you will will never be allowed visit and jobs you will never be able to take across whole industries if you have a financial or criminal case against your Name.

Oh, for crying out loud. Enough with the scaremongering.

In the first place, a dispute between you and your landlord over whether you were right to withold rent is not a "financial or crimoipnal case" that could possibly affect your visa entitlement in any country.

More to the point, if a non-resident landlord sues you for withholding 20% and accounting to the Revenue for it, you will win and he will lose. And if there really are the consequences you suggest to losing such a case, it is the landlord who faces them, not the tenant.

evolving_doors

Find and talk to the landlord OP.

JustAThought

Peregrinus wrote: »

Oh, for crying out loud. Enough with the scaremongering.

In the first place, a dispute between you and your landlord over whether you were right to withold rent is not a "financial or crimoipnal case" that could possibly affect your visa entitlement in any country.

More to the point, if a non-resident landlord sues you for withholding 20% and accounting to the Revenue for it, you will win and he will lose. And if there really are the consequences you suggest to losing such a case, it is the landlord who faces them, not the tenant.

Oh for crying out loud - not only are the courts full of recidivist criminals with their sob stories of not knowing & having a bad upbringing, but now we have barrack-room boyos online telling people not to pay their full rent & putting them at risk of criminal prosecution - and there will always be one gullible who fancies themselves with 20% off thir rent to hold onto & keep handy who will loose their rental and references and end up will a criminal prosecution over it.I'd love to be in the court when they explain that they refused to fulfil their contract because an anonymous stranger online told them to do it and keep 20% of the money; or they had meant to investigate the tax and living affairs of the person they had a contract with but realised they wern't a policeman and had no clue at all about their life and so just held onto 20% of their contract due and that is why they are having a judgement made against them for breech of contract in court or why they are explaining to the dole officer or RA people why they have other income they did not declare & have unsatisfactory answer for. So - quick judgement with life penalty points for stupidity - no visa to Australia, or America, no job in the bank - ever - or insurance companys, or finance, or investment, or multinationals like ebay, or paypal, or pretty much any company handling bank detail, etc etc. But you just keep on acting irresponsibly and encouraging schmucks to line up for a criminal conviction & ruin their futures. Lets face it - you won't be there in the courtroom when they are being prosecuted or evicted for non payment of rent or their RA ir doke cut off or having a work or travel visa refused because of something stupid they did that they were foolish or guillable enough to want to believe.

" it was only resting in my account"
They have comedy series made about it. only its only funny when its someone else being riduculously stupid.

Peregrinus

JustAThought wrote: »

Oh for crying out loud - not only are the courts full of recidivist criminals with their sob stories of not knowing & having a bad upbringing, but now we have barrack-room boyos online . . .

Ironic, coming from you.

Failure to pay your rent is not a crime and a dispute with your landlord over whether you have paid the correct amount of rent does not put you ar risk of criminal prosecution.

Do not bother to post a reply contradicting this unless it includes a link to a section of an Irish statute making non-payment of rent a crime. You will only make yourself look more ridiculous than you already do.

If you had bothered to read the thread you would realise that nobody has told the OP to withhold 20% of the rent and keep it for himself. He is to withhold 20% of the rent and account for it to the Revenue.

4ensic15

JustAThought wrote: »

Oh for crying out loud - not only are the courts full of recidivist criminals with their sob stories of not knowing & having a bad upbringing, but now we have barrack-room boyos online telling people not to pay their full rent & putting themat risk of criminal prosecution - and there will always be one gullible who willloose their rental and references and end up will a criminal prosecution over it. I'd live to be in the court when they explain that they refused to fulfil their contract because an anonymous stranger online tild them to do it and keep 20% of the money; or they gad meant to investigate the tax and living affairs of the person they had a contract with but realised they wern't a policeman and had no clue at all about their life and so just held onto 20% of their contract due and that is why they aregaving a judgement made against them for breech of contract in court. So - no visa to Australia, or America, or job in the bank - ever - or insurance companys, or finance, etc wtc. But you just keep on acting irresponsibly and encouraging schmucks to line up for a criminal conviction & ruin their futures. Lets dace it - you win't be there in the courtroom when they are being prosecuted or evicted for non payment of rent or having a work or travel visa refused because of something stupid they did that they were foolish or guillable enough to want to believe.

" it was only resting in my account"
They have comedy series made about it.police involved there too.

Nobody can be criminally prosecuted for non payment of rent unless it is in a court run by a barrack room lawyer from the internet. Eviction does not (even if it happened) for a ground for refusing a visa since it is entirely a civil matter. People have however been made to pay the landlords taxes to the revenue and failure to do that can result in a criminal conviction.
All of the links on this site contradict your position which is entirely devoid of supporting link.

JustAThought

It takes little effort for a landlord to take a eviction case or civil action against someone in breech of their contract - with all the consequences that follow . The lobbyists that want vulnerable & guillable people to ruin their futrues will hide safd behind their keyboards - the consequences will be forever with the foolhardy that are squirreling money away in the pretense of a kangaroo decision about the living and tax compliance & annual returns of someone who their contact with or detailed knowledge of is typically negilable or based on a throwaway comment. What is so shocking here is that the consequences for the guillable are so grave. Its is deeply disturbing that lovbyists are encouraging non payment of rent in full, withholding of layments, breach of contract etc. The real victim will be the tenant. But sure that's just incidental here I gather - they are disposable pawns .

4ensic15

JustAThought wrote: »

It takes little effort for a landlord to take a eviction case or civil action against someone in breech of their contract - with all the consequences that follow . The lobbyists that want vulnerable & guillable people to ruin their futrues will hide safd behind their keyboards - the consequences will be forever with the foolhardy that are squirreling money away in the pretense of a kangaroo decision about the living and tax compliance & annual returns of someone who their contact with or detailed knowledge of is typically negilable or based on a throwaway comment. What is so shocking here is that the consequences for the guillable are so grave. Its is deeply disturbing that lovbyists are encouraging non payment of rent in full, withholding of layments, breach of contract etc. The real victim will be the tenant. But sure that's just incidental here I gather - they are disposable pawns .

Still no links. A landlord can't take a civil action against a tenant for non payment of rent unless more than 20K is owed. Even then it is only a civil action and has to be preceeded by a letter of demand. By the time the 20k limit is passed the tenant will have paid 80K in rent. That will take years. How long do you expect any landlord who is not getting his full rent is going to wait?

evolving_doors

Have you thought about trying to contact the landlord OP?

Paulw

Mod Note: JustAThought - stop spreading false advice.

The law is clear. You cannot get a criminal conviction from doing what the law requires. The law states that if the landlord is non-resident, then the tenant must withhold 20% of the rent, to be paid to the Revenue.

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/housing/renting_a_home/tax_relief_for_tenants.html#le9d7d