Taxation of classic cars [thread split]

SnakePlissken

b]MODEDIT: Split off from Merlins Auctions thread [url=http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057702256&page=8#116]here[/url][/b

MrRolex wrote: »

My wife's car to be honest. She didn't mention what it sold for, and I didn't bother to ask as it was small money anyway. But yes, it was a nice car. I refused to pay the 1809 motor tax on it, so she just drove it around with nothing on it for years. Gardai don't really pull Bentley's, well unless you are obviously drunk and all over the road.
Shame one needs a petrol tanker following behind to keep them in fuel though!

If you can't afford the tax, you can't afford the car.

MrRolex

SnakePlissken wrote: »

If you can't afford the tax, you can't afford the car.

Agreed.
I would also add if one cannot afford the petrol, one cannot afford the car.
Running a Bentley in the Celtic Tiger was possible, there was more money around. But times change, so one has to cut back on some things. That is just the way it is. Good fun while it lasted though, and better to have experienced it than to always wonder what if?
For what its worth, my daily is now a 1.0 litre Polo, and my current classic is an '84 Golf GTI.
But when one weighs up 1809 motor tax v 56 Motor tax, its a moot point really.
And that is before one weighs up the 15 MPG v 30 MPG.
The funny thing is, I enjoy driving my Golf as much as I did my wife's Turbo R.
So one doesn't always need to spend a lot of money to get bang for buck.

MrRolex

LIGHTNING wrote: »

I hate that saying, its a complete load of tosh. I can afford to pay 1800 on a 911 but I refuse to give the Irish government that money. They already take nearly half my paycheck.

The motor tax in Ireland is mad isn't it? 1809 Euro. In the UK its £235 (275 Euro).

When I lived there I enjoyed running an E55 AMG, and now they are worth nothing. One can buy a good one for 5K or even less. Back then it was £210 for motor tax on that 5.4 litre.
But here I could pay it, but choose not to; like yourself. I worked hard and paid my fair share of tax until I retired at 40. One just has enough of paying all the tax here; PRSI, USC, VAT, tax on petrol, everything!
And then there is the car insurance 30% increase across the board to add to one's woes. I hate to admit it, but all things considered I was better off in the UK really. Certainly on the motoring front anyway.
And I haven't even mentioned VRT! We live in the EU, but one has to pay to import a car from one EU state to another EU state. Madness.
It won't be long before the Revenue pumps up the vintage 200 Euro to 500 Euro or something
On a positive note I just renewed my insurance on my '84 Golf. 160 Euro per year with Campion. I think lately there has been a surge in the interest of running pre '87 cars as daily's. People are fed up with all the tax here, especially on pre '08 1.9 and 2.0 TDI's etc. 56 Euro is a real saving compared to 710 Euro isn't it?
Personally I run a 1.0 litre Polo as my daily for the 199 Euro tax per year, and my Golf at 56 Euro for that reason. I abhor handing over 1809 per year to drive what I would like to.
We really are controlled by taxation here. Born free, free to be taxed.

PaulK_CCI

I know it's easy to slag the government and moan about rediculous charges, but perhaps you're not alone in this as other countries are not much better off.
Here is holland tax is based on Curb Weight of the car, irrespective of engine capacity. Approx 300 for a light small car, and up to around 7-800 normal saloon/stationwagons. For Diesel and LPG gas cars this figure is doubled! I pay 1480 euro's per year for my Volvo V70 Estate diesel. Granted diesel only 1,16 euro and gas only 60 cents per litre.
Classics (pre-1987) pay a flat rate of 120 euro's per year, but some nitwit in the government decided they wanted to root out the people using their classic on a daily basis and assumed most people would store their classic over the winter period anyway, so it's forbidden to drive the car during December, January and February!!! How mad is that :-)
On another note, you both claim you refuse to pay tax, that would be something that you would unfortunately not be able to do in Holland, because the whole system of insurance, Dutch NCT AND Motor Tax is computerized and you will get a fine on your doormat as soon as you haven't paid your tax, haven't insured the car, or haven't NCT it in time, without even being snapped by photo camera's or stopped at check points. 
Also there is no such thing as a pre-1980 exemption from NCT. All cars have to be NCT'-ed albeit, 30 year old cars every two years instead of every year. On a positive side, the testing here is not as strict as an NCT test!!!
So all things considered, you are not doing too bad.

MrRolex

PaulK_CCI wrote: »

I know it's easy to slag the government and moan about rediculous charges, but perhaps you're not alone in this as other countries are not much better off.
Here is holland tax is based on Curb Weight of the car, irrespective of engine capacity. Approx 300 for a light small car, and up to around 7-800 normal saloon/stationwagons. For Diesel and LPG gas cars this figure is doubled! I pay 1480 euro's per year for my Volvo V70 Estate diesel. Granted diesel only 1,16 euro and gas only 60 cents per litre.
Classics (pre-1987) pay a flat rate of 120 euro's per year, but some nitwit in the government decided they wanted to root out the people using their classic on a daily basis and assumed most people would store their classic over the winter period anyway, so it's forbidden to drive the car during December, January and February!!! How mad is that :-)
On another note, you both claim you refuse to pay tax, that would be something that you would unfortunately not be able to do in Holland, because the whole system of insurance, Dutch NCT AND Motor Tax is computerized and you will get a fine on your doormat as soon as you haven't paid your tax, haven't insured the car, or haven't NCT it in time, without even being snapped by photo camera's or stopped at check points. 
Also there is no such thing as a pre-1980 exemption from NCT. All cars have to be NCT'-ed albeit, 30 year old cars every two years instead of every year. On a positive side, the testing here is not as strict as an NCT test!!!
So all things considered, you are not doing too bad.

That is mad about the December-February ban! Holland is turning into a nanny state controlled by Big Brother. On a positive note there are some nice '87 cars coming into the 56 Euro vintage tax rate later this year. I fancy a 500 SEC or 500 SEL. May as well enjoy the cheap tax while it lasts, and the 200 Euro VRT rate to import them from the UK. All good things come to an end. I think all this heavy taxation just encourages people to ring cars on ZV plates here more really. The whole motor tax system needs an overhaul.
I think getting rid of motor tax and just putting in on fuel alone is fairer.
Say there was no motor tax, but petrol was 2 Euro per litre, I wouldn't complain about that at all.

Dades

PaulK_CCI wrote: »

it's forbidden to drive the car during December, January and February!!! How mad is that :-)

That IS mad. And terrible for the cars whose owners are not fortunate to have garages. A happy classic is a used classic.

We all know the tax system has nothing to do with fairness and everything to do with the government coffers. The new tax regime was introduced to encourage new car buying (and VRT), not for any "green" agenda. The greenest agenda - and fairest - would of course be [another] tax added to fuel. The more you use your car and the more fuel you burn - the more you pay.

But that is pie in the sky on the only thing on the mind of any government is maximising the tax haul. Just ask the Green Party... if you could!

hi5

PaulK_CCI wrote: »

Here is holland tax is based on Curb Weight of the car, irrespective of engine capacity. Approx 300 for a light small car, and up to around 7-800 normal saloon/stationwagons. For Diesel and LPG gas cars this figure is doubled!

Why is LPG penalised, is it not cleaner than petrol?

unkel

hi5 wrote: »

Why is LPG penalised

It's not!

The motor tax is more expensive but the excise is really low. Petrol €1.68/l, diesel €1.33/l, LPG €0.85/l

PaulK_CCI

Like Unkel says, it's the tax that is doubled and the government feels that drivers who chose to drive a diesel car, or convert their car to run on LPG, that they do so, because they want to drive higher mileages and by making the fuel cheaper but the tax band higher, it means the more you drive the more beneficial it gets. Usually it starts to make sense if you drive more than 10,000 miles a year.
It's a deterrent for people driving small mileages to go for a more polluting Diesel car, but this is a wasted argument on LPG gas!! I personally feel the motor tax for running LPG gas should definitely not be classed in the same tax band as Diesel, but unfortunately the government does not agree .
Note those prices you quote Unkel are a lot lower, especially in my neck of the woods I pay 1.17 for diesel!!!

PaulK_CCI

That said, there is no such Motor Tax restriction on LPG in Ireland, and for the life of me I do not understand why there are not more people jumping on this and have their classic car converted to run on LPG gas!! I sold several Range Rovers and the odd W126 on LPG gas into Ireland over the years, and I always wondered why it never took off more...

MrRolex

PaulK_CCI wrote: »

That said, there is no such Motor Tax restriction on LPG in Ireland, and for the life of me I do not understand why there are not more people jumping on this and have their classic car converted to run on LPG gas!! I sold several Range Rovers and the odd W126 on LPG gas into Ireland over the years, and I always wondered why it never took off more...

Lack of LPG at filling stations.

PaulK_CCI

MrRolex wrote: »

Lack of LPG at filling stations.

I think that's unfair. Admittedly you have to do a bit of planning, but even here in Holland you would have to keep an eye out for filling stations that have LPG, as not all stations would have it. 
I would say if more people would choose to drive on LPG, there would automatically be more filling points popping up...

unkel

It's mainly because people here don't know what it is, Paul. Up to about 10 years ago an LPGd car was a rarity. Since then there has been some uptake, based largely on demand from Eastern European immigrants (who did a lot of the conversions since then)

Availability of LPG at filling stations isn't great, but this is not that important. As an LPG car can run on both. Just fill up with LPG when you pass a filling station that has it and not worry that now and then you run on petrol for a bit

I was very tempted to get my old E60 BMW converted when I got it, but my mileage was low (maybe 12k km) hence the payback time was long, about 2 years iirc. If you do average or higher than average mileage and you run a biggish engined (over 2l in Ireland ) car, it's a no brainer.

Unfortunately because of the mass uptake of diesel from 2008 and no big engined petrol cars being sold at all anymore since then, the whole LPG scene never got off the ground

Testacalda

PaulK_CCI wrote: »

I do not understand why there are not more people jumping on this and have their classic car converted to run on LPG gas!!

Well if its a classic car it probably wont do all that much mileage, not compared to an average motorist in their modern car.

So it would take ages to recoup the cost of the conversion on the fuel savings alone. Its probably just not worth the hassle a lot of the time, plus there is a lack of stations to get it at. Not great if a strive for originality is your thing either :rolleyes:

Means Of Escape

MrRolex wrote: »

My wife's car to be honest. She didn't mention what it sold for, and I didn't bother to ask as it was small money anyway. But yes, it was a nice car. I refused to pay the 1809 motor tax on it, so she just drove it around with nothing on it for years. Gardai don't really pull Bentley's, well unless you are obviously drunk and all over the road.
Shame one needs a petrol tanker following behind to keep them in fuel though!

What utter nonsense that Gardai don't pull Bentleys

Traffic corp are even worse and won't entertain half baked excuses

PaulK_CCI

unkel wrote: »

I was very tempted to get my old E60 BMW converted when I got it, but my mileage was low (maybe 12k km) hence the payback time was long, about 2 years iirc. If you do average or higher than average mileage and you run a biggish engined (over 2l in Ireland ) car, it's a no brainer.

I will post one more reply in here about the LPG because we are getting in danger of hyjacking this thread which is supposed to be about the Merlin Auction!! 
I think you are right in saying that for the investment of converting a car to LPG you need to do quite a bit of driving to start earning that back, but that said, there are lots of cars that are already converted! I sold quite a few Range Rovers into Ireland that had already been converted to gas, so it was literally pay for the car, and the benefit immediately kicks in. There's loads of American cars here too, that have a conversion already in place. Maybe a good idea to start a new thread on this subject some time or another

millington

PaulK_CCI wrote: »

I know it's easy to slag the government and moan about rediculous charges, but perhaps you're not alone in this as other countries are not much better off.
Here is holland tax is based on Curb Weight of the car, irrespective of engine capacity. Approx 300 for a light small car, and up to around 7-800 normal saloon/stationwagons. For Diesel and LPG gas cars this figure is doubled! I pay 1480 euro's per year for my Volvo V70 Estate diesel. Granted diesel only 1,16 euro and gas only 60 cents per litre.
Classics (pre-1987) pay a flat rate of 120 euro's per year, but some nitwit in the government decided they wanted to root out the people using their classic on a daily basis and assumed most people would store their classic over the winter period anyway, so it's forbidden to drive the car during December, January and February!!! How mad is that :-)
On another note, you both claim you refuse to pay tax, that would be something that you would unfortunately not be able to do in Holland, because the whole system of insurance, Dutch NCT AND Motor Tax is computerized and you will get a fine on your doormat as soon as you haven't paid your tax, haven't insured the car, or haven't NCT it in time, without even being snapped by photo camera's or stopped at check points. 
Also there is no such thing as a pre-1980 exemption from NCT. All cars have to be NCT'-ed albeit, 30 year old cars every two years instead of every year. On a positive side, the testing here is not as strict as an NCT test!!!
So all things considered, you are not doing too bad.

Very much so derailing the thread, but is insurance much different over there? For modern or classics

PaulK_CCI

millington wrote: »

Very much so derailing the thread, but is insurance much different over there? For modern or classics

Insurance isn't too bad over here, approx 150 thirdparty only, approx 250 a year for a classic car with an agreed value of around 5k (so + Fire / Theft). The higher the value of the car, the higher the premium but there's no argument with the insurance company when you make a claim because the value is agreed! 
For normal drivers, approx 250-300 with a full NCB for 'mature' driver and anyone driving the car is insured. Here the insurance is more on the car rather than the person driving it, so no need to put partner or "young one" on the policy because the car is insured rather than the driver. So without the NCB max (=80%), if you are a new driver, policy would be around the 1400-1600 euro but young drivers will have to ring around big time if they want to get insurance on a powerful car and won't get insurance on let's say a Mitsubishi Evo or a Skyline. So here no mortgage money but rather normal rates, or a flat out refusal.

On another note, in Holland there is no such thing as a Provisional License so no messing about with these ludicrous policies either.

Means Of Escape

SnakePlissken wrote: »

If you can't afford the tax, you can't afford the car.

Not only that it's clear that people can't afford to put fuel in the gas guzzlers If they moan about about mpg so why would one buy one in the first place ?

As regards this Bentley, the fuel and tax are the least of an owners costs when it compares to servicing and parts .

Means Of Escape

LIGHTNING wrote: »

I hate that saying, its a complete load of tosh. I can afford to pay 1800 on a 911 but I refuse to give the Irish government that money. They already take nearly half my paycheck.

You can't afford it if youre equating the percentage it hits from your pay check .

Means Of Escape

MrRolex wrote: »

Agreed.
I would also add if one cannot afford the petrol, one cannot afford the car.
Running a Bentley in the Celtic Tiger was possible, there was more money around. But times change, so one has to cut back on some things. That is just the way it is. Good fun while it lasted though, and better to have experienced it than to always wonder what if?
For what its worth, my daily is now a 1.0 litre Polo, and my current classic is an '84 Golf GTI.
But when one weighs up 1809 motor tax v 56 Motor tax, its a moot point really.
And that is before one weighs up the 15 MPG v 30 MPG.
The funny thing is, I enjoy driving my Golf as much as I did my wife's Turbo R.
So one doesn't always need to spend a lot of money to get bang for buck.

Are you for real ?
You enjoy driving a VW Golf as much as a Bentley Turbo R??
Did you even sit in the Bentley when your wife had it and as for the mention of a 1 litre VW Polo in the same article as a Bentley ,Jesus wept .

MrRolex

Means Of Escape wrote: »

Are you for real ?
You enjoy driving a VW Golf as much as a Bentley Turbo R??
Did you even sit in the Bentley when your wife had it and as for the mention of a 1 litre VW Polo in the same article as a Bentley ,Jesus wept .

Yes, I am for real.
Yes, I sat in my wife's Bentley.
Yes, I enjoy my 1984 Golf GTI (as much as her Bentley).
I also enjoy wearing my Casio Duro as much as my Rolex President for what it's worth.
Reason being, when I was 19 I had the same car (albeit an '87 one) in mars red.
I am 40 now, and it brings back many happy memories of being 19; one could call it nostalgia I suppose.
I have owned everything from my 1.0 litre Polo to AMG E55's over the years.
My Polo is an economical daily with cheap motor tax. My Golf GTI is my fun car for weekends. 199 motor tax and 56 Euro motor tax.
No shame in that at all. My wife and I had the best of cars during the Celtic Tiger, before I retired at 40 and paid off our mortgage.
I am fortunate in that I do not need to work anymore. But the trade off, or negative side to that; is I no longer have the revenue stream to run cars like a Bentley Turbo R. Nor does my wife, the boom is over; it's a moot point.
We are happy, even driving along in my 1.0 litre Polo; and that is all that matters to us.
Money and cars come and go, that is life. One should never base one's happiness on material objects.
My wife likes me for who I am, whether I drive a Polo or Bentley, and I do the same with her. None of that matters.
Generally we find those that have never owned a Bentley share your opinion, and haven't experienced it, and therefore cannot believe one could be satisfied with a 1.0 litre Polo or Golf GTI after.
You know, people are different; what makes me happy may not make you happy; but that's life. But don't judge me for it.

Means Of Escape

MrRolex wrote: »

Yes, I am for real.
Yes, I sat in my wife's Bentley.
Yes, I enjoy my 1984 Golf GTI (as much as her Bentley).
I also enjoy wearing my Casio Duro as much as my Rolex President for what it's worth.
Reason being, when I was 19 I had the same car (albeit an '87 one) in mars red.
I am 40 now, and it brings back many happy memories of being 19; one could call it nostalgia I suppose.
I have owned everything from my 1.0 litre Polo to AMG E55's over the years.
My Polo is an economical daily with cheap motor tax. My Golf GTI is my fun car for weekends. 199 motor tax and 56 Euro motor tax.
No shame in that at all. My wife and I had the best of cars during the Celtic Tiger, before I retired at 40 and paid off our mortgage.
I am fortunate in that I do not need to work anymore. But the trade off, or negative side to that; is I no longer have the revenue stream to run cars like a Bentley Turbo R. Nor does my wife, the boom is over; it's a moot point.
We are happy, even driving along in my 1.0 litre Polo; and that is all that matters to us.
Money and cars come and go, that is life. One should never base one's happiness on material objects.
My wife likes me for who I am, whether I drive a Polo or Bentley, and I do the same with her. None of that matters.
Generally we find those that have never owned a Bentley share your opinion, and haven't experienced it, and therefore cannot believe one could be satisfied with a 1.0 litre Polo or Golf GTI after.
You know, people are different; what makes me happy may not make you happy; but that's life. But don't judge me for it.

You are comparing the driving experience of a Bentley to a 1 litre VW Polo .
A Casio vs a Rolex
Nothing to do with your happiness but your logic
Yes both cars can get you from A to B and both watches can tell the time but apart from that there is nothing else to compare .

duskyjoe

MrRolex, with respect you come across poorly to the great unwashed.

elperello

Means Of Escape wrote: »

What utter nonsense that Gardai don't pull Bentleys

Traffic corp are even worse and won't entertain half baked excuses

I bet they would pull this one!

http://www.carzone.ie/used-cars/bentley/bentayga/used-2016-161-bentley-bentayga-983571983515-fpa-351090996913746965

Dades

elperello wrote: »

I bet they would pull this one!

http://www.carzone.ie/used-cars/bentley/bentayga/used-2016-161-bentley-bentayga-983571983515-fpa-351090996913746965

Maybe just to beat it some more with the ugly stick! Ugh.

dr.fuzzenstein

Means Of Escape wrote: »

You are comparing the driving experience of a Bentley to a 1 litre VW Polo .
A Casio vs a Rolex
Nothing to do with your happiness but your logic
Yes both cars can get you from A to B and both watches can tell the time but apart from that there is nothing else to compare .

So he is not allowed to enjoy things that don't meet your approval? Bit dickish IMO. Are you 10?

jimgoose

Means Of Escape wrote: »

Are you for real ?
You enjoy driving a VW Golf as much as a Bentley Turbo R??...

They are two very different, and some would even say complementary, motoring experiences.

dr.fuzzenstein

jimgoose wrote: »

They are two very different, and some would even say complementary, motoring experiences.

All forms of motoring can be fun. Been driving an old Twingo while the Connect had new drive shafts fitted, it's a hoot.

MetzgerMeister

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

So he is not allowed to enjoy things that don't meet your approval? Bit dickish IMO. Are you 10?

Calm it down there good Dr.