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M50 toll solicitor's letter

  • 08-02-2017 4:46pm
    #1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11


    Hi Guys,

    I know there's been a few other posts regarding the M50 toll but nothing that I saw really covered my situation.

    I have a UK car which is registered in Northern Ireland. I drove through the tolls a few times last year and received penalties which I didn't pay. Recently I received a solicitor's letter demanding payment. The fines were crazy as well. Around 150 euros per toll. The letter said my credit rating would be affected and may be summoned to court.

    I was wondering how this can affect my credit rating as I'm not in agreement with them?

    Also I don't see how they can summons someone registered in Northern Ireland to a Dublin court?

    Lastly I'm in Dublin all the time and I was wondering if anything would happen if the Garda stopped me?

    Thanks a million guys.
    Tagged:


«13

Comments

  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,400 ✭✭✭me_irl


    A quick google search brought up this article from 2008.

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2008/aug/31/transport


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,121 ✭✭✭amcalester


    You drove through the tolls, past the big signs telling you that there was a toll and you don't think you agreed?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,360 ✭✭✭BetsyEllen


    LUDublin wrote: »
    Hi Guys,

    I know there's been a few other posts regarding the M50 toll but nothing that I saw really covered my situation.

    I have a UK car which is registered in Northern Ireland. I drove through the tolls a few times last year and received penalties which I didn't pay. Recently I received a solicitor's letter demanding payment. The fines were crazy as well. Around 150 euros per toll. The letter said my credit rating would be affected and may be summoned to court.

    I was wondering how this can affect my credit rating as I'm not in agreement with them?

    Also I don't see how they can summons someone registered in Northern Ireland to a Dublin court?

    Lastly I'm in Dublin all the time and I was wondering if anything would happen if the Garda stopped me?

    Thanks a million guys.

    I can't answer all of your questions but I don't think the guards can do anything if you're stopped - it's nothing to do with them and they won't know anything about it.

    What can happen if you don't pay the fine is they can register judgement and also send a sheriff to collect the car. And they will - google it, lots of cars were seized last year.

    Saying you're not in agreement with them doesn't stand up in court - using the service, i.e. driving the road will be seen as 'deemed contract'.
    Basically you knew the terms of the service and used it, hence you owe the money.

    It's an absolutely awful system once it goes to the solicitors - I'm currently paying off a 'debt' of 4 journeys that escalated to over €800.
    I'm paying €50 per month.
    You have my full sympathy, it's a load of crap. The stress I had to go through to even get them to agree to €50 per month was unreal.

    I think the law changed last year so that debts in the South can be pursued in the North.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,400 ✭✭✭me_irl


    Oh, and this thread from 2011.

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056252111

    So, you're receiving appropriate punishment for not paying the tolls.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 81,220 ✭✭✭✭biko


    Is this some freeman crap?


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,795 ✭✭✭Isambard


    no one to blame but yourself for your situation I'm afraid.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11 LUDublin


    amcalester wrote: »
    You drove through the tolls, past the big signs telling you that there was a toll and you don't think you agreed?
    I wasn't trying to say that I didn't see the signs. My point was that I didn't sign a credit agreement so how can it affect your credit rating? I was trying to find out if anyone has ever heard of someone's credit rating actually being affected specifically a UK driver.


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 40,361 Mod ✭✭✭✭Gumbo


    Use our roads, pay the toll and cop on.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,430 ✭✭✭bladespin


    Hmmm, nothing really on outcomes, debt collection agencies for the most part seem to be just pests with little power from most of what I'm reading, anyone got anything showing an outcome rather than threats?

    MasteryDarts Ireland - Master your game!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,883 ✭✭✭pa990


    They are not solicitors, they are a debt collection agency with a clever name.

    If you've an out of state vehicle, and an out of state address, I wouldn't be overly concerned.

    Let it play out.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,190 ✭✭✭✭Sleeper12


    LUDublin wrote:
    I was wondering how this can affect my credit rating as I'm not in agreement with them?

    When the bill hits around 3k and it will. It goes up every day you ignore it. They get a judgment against you. This kills your credit rating. Your car can be seized too. You used their toll so you owe the money. Best advice is talk to them before you owe thousands.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,190 ✭✭✭✭Sleeper12


    pa990 wrote:
    If you've an out of state vehicle, and an out of state address, I wouldn't be overly concerned.


    Not the best advice. They will get a judgment against him even if he's outside the state. Credit rating will be smashed


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11 LUDublin


    BetsyEllen wrote: »
    I can't answer all of your questions but I don't think the guards can do anything if you're stopped - it's nothing to do with them and they won't know anything about it.

    What can happen if you don't pay the fine is they can register judgement and also send a sheriff to collect the car. And they will - google it, lots of cars were seized last year.

    Saying you're not in agreement with them doesn't stand up in court - using the service, i.e. driving the road will be seen as 'deemed contract'.
    Basically you knew the terms of the service and used it, hence you owe the money.

    It's an absolutely awful system once it goes to the solicitors - I'm currently paying off a 'debt' of 4 journeys that escalated to over €800.
    I'm paying €50 per month.
    You have my full sympathy, it's a load of crap. The stress I had to go through to even get them to agree to €50 per month was unreal.

    I think the law changed last year so that debts in the South can be pursued in the North.
    Thanks for your reply.

    One of my concerns was if there was a Garda checkpoint could they seize the car but as you said the Garda wouldn't know anything about it.

    I had heard of people having their cars seized although I was wondering if they could still seize my car if it is registered up North. The Garda wouldn't be able to collect it from the North I'd imagine.

    I know what you mean by the "deemed contract" although I would wonder how it would ever get to court. I know there is various articles about Northern drivers being pursued by I haven't heard of anything happen to a Northern or UK driver apart from the solicitor's letter.

    Your situation seems awful and it's crazy that they'd bill you 800 euros for 4 tolls.

    In summary I'm just trying to find out will my credit rating actually be affected and is there any way they can seize a UK registered car. I know they threaten to do this all the time however I've never actually heard of this happening to someone from the UK.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 133 ✭✭Joe Hill


    Sleeper12 wrote: »
    Not the best advice. They will get a judgment against him even if he's outside the state. Credit rating will be smashed

    Jax roll mate.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,922 ✭✭✭GM228


    LUDublin wrote: »
    I wasn't trying to say that I didn't see the signs. My point was that I didn't sign a credit agreement so how can it affect your credit rating? I was trying to find out if anyone has ever heard of someone's credit rating actually being affected specifically a UK driver.

    Only a UK rating under one of the UK Credit Reference Agencies can be affected by a non paid fine, but only when there is a County Court Judgement against you.

    ICB credit ratings can't be affected by non payment of fines.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 30,048 ✭✭✭✭HeidiHeidi


    LUDublin wrote: »
    Thanks for your reply.

    One of my concerns was if there was a Garda checkpoint could they seize the car but as you said the Garda wouldn't know anything about it.

    I had heard of people having their cars seized although I was wondering if they could still seize my car if it is registered up North. The Garda wouldn't be able to collect it from the North I'd imagine.

    I know what you mean by the "deemed contract" although I would wonder how it would ever get to court. I know there is various articles about Northern drivers being pursued by I haven't heard of anything happen to a Northern or UK driver apart from the solicitor's letter.

    Your situation seems awful and it's crazy that they'd bill you 800 euros for 4 tolls.

    In summary I'm just trying to find out will my credit rating actually be affected and is there any way they can seize a UK registered car. I know they threaten to do this all the time however I've never actually heard of this happening to someone from the UK.

    They didn't bill you 800 euros for 4 tolls (as I'm sure you realise).


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,190 ✭✭✭✭Sleeper12


    GM228 wrote:
    ICB credit ratings can't be affected by non payment of fines.


    They are affected when the fee gets into the thousands and eflow bring him to court. The judgment against him will effect his rating. I'm sure there's threads here somewhere explaining this


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,922 ✭✭✭GM228


    Sleeper12 wrote: »
    They are affected when the fee gets into the thousands and eflow bring him to court. The judgment against him will effect his rating. I'm sure there's threads here somewhere explaining this

    Only judgements against you taken by crediters who are banks, credit unions and local authorities and are members of the ICB are recorded by the ICB.

    Judgements in relation to anything else or involving non members of the ICB isn't recorded on the ICB.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11 LUDublin


    GM228 wrote: »
    Only judgements against you taken by crediters who are banks, credit unions and local authorities and are members of the ICB are recorded by the ICB.

    Judgements in relation to anything else or involving non members of the ICB isn't recorded on the ICB.
    The thing I was wondering Sleeper12 is how they could bring me to court if my car is registered in the north.

    @GM228 - Thanks for the information you've provided it's been a big help. By the sound of things this wouldn't affect my credit rating even if I had a credit rating with the ICB. My credit reference is with a UK agency though.

    The reason I posted this is because I've never heard of anything actually happening to a UK registered driver as I don't see how they can seize the car or affect the credit rating.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11 LUDublin


    bladespin wrote: »
    Hmmm, nothing really on outcomes, debt collection agencies for the most part seem to be just pests with little power from most of what I'm reading, anyone got anything showing an outcome rather than threats?
    That's what I was thinking. I'd be interested to see if anyone has an example of something actually happening apart from threatening letters


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11 LUDublin


    pa990 wrote: »
    They are not solicitors, they are a debt collection agency with a clever name.

    If you've an out of state vehicle, and an out of state address, I wouldn't be overly concerned.

    Let it play out.
    That's what I was thinking. I just can't see how they can enforce any of their threats with a UK driver.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 214 ✭✭Delacent


    LUDublin wrote: »
    The thing I was wondering Sleeper12 is how they could bring me to court if my car is registered in the north.

    @GM228 - Thanks for the information you've provided it's been a big help. By the sound of things this wouldn't affect my credit rating even if I had a credit rating with the ICB. My credit reference is with a UK agency though.

    The reason I posted this is because I've never heard of anything actually happening to a UK registered driver as I don't see how they can seize the car or affect the credit rating.

    The additional charges will increase and increase.
    Then there will be the court charges.

    Then there'll be local enforcement.

    Then you'll wish you paid the €3


    Here are the guys that will go after you
    https://www.epcplc.com/legal_information

    You really want to risk potential thousands just to be a stubborn eejit?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,518 ✭✭✭✭dudara


    LUDublin wrote: »
    That's what I was thinking. I just can't see how they can enforce any of their threats with a UK driver.

    I'd have to dig it out, but they can persue you for your debt. Ireland is a two-country island, do you really think that debts suddenly disappear once you cross the border?

    http://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/cars-seized-from-drivers-owing-average-28-600-in-m50-tolls-1.2717290

    My advice, engage with them, see if you can negotiate downwards and pay what you owe. eFlow have actually been very good to deal with IMO when I've had issues in the past and received a warning letter based on the previous owner.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,704 ✭✭✭✭RayCun


    LUDublin wrote: »
    That's what I was thinking. I just can't see how they can enforce any of their threats with a UK driver.

    This was all addressed in an article linked at the start of the thread.

    The gardai are not going to come and seize your car. But the debt is being pursued by a debt collection agency. They can, if it becomes necessary, get a judgement against you in a NI court. That would end up with a sheriff seizing your car.

    Your irish credit rating would not be effected, but of course you don't care about an Irish credit rating. If you have a British debt collection agency pursuing you through British courts then your British credit rating will suffer.

    I've zero sympathy. You thought you could ignore the charge but you should have paid it.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,473 ✭✭✭robtri


    where do you reside??


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,875 ✭✭✭✭MugMugs


    dudara wrote: »
    I'd have to dig it out, but they can persue you for your debt. Ireland is a two-country island, do you really think that debts suddenly disappear once you cross the border?

    http://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/cars-seized-from-drivers-owing-average-28-600-in-m50-tolls-1.2717290

    My advice, engage with them, see if you can negotiate downwards and pay what you owe. eFlow have actually been very good to deal with IMO when I've had issues in the past and received a warning letter based on the previous owner.

    I'm not arguing the toss here but can a judgement in the Republic be enforced in another country?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,704 ✭✭✭✭RayCun


    MugMugs wrote: »
    I'm not arguing the toss here but can a judgement in the Republic be enforced in another country?

    That's not what would happen.

    A judgement would be issued in the country where it is to be enforced.

    EPC would go to the court and demonstrate that they are authorised to collect the debt and that the debt is valid.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,875 ✭✭✭✭MugMugs


    RayCun wrote: »
    EPC would go to the court and demonstrate that they are authorised to collect the debt and that the debt is valid.

    In the North?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,704 ✭✭✭✭RayCun


    MugMugs wrote: »
    In the North?

    Yeah, that's where the guy lives so that's where they'd go to court.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,473 ✭✭✭robtri


    MugMugs wrote: »
    I'm not arguing the toss here but can a judgement in the Republic be enforced in another country?

    in short yes....

    Recognition and enforcement of judgments
    The UK is a party to treaty-based schemes for the enforcement of judgments
    as a member of the European Union and the European Economic
    Area. The Brussels I Regulation, Council Regulation (EC) 44/2001 (the
    Regulation) on jurisdiction and the recognition and enforcement of judgments
    in civil and commercial matters provides for the speedy and simplified
    enforcement of judgments obtained in the courts of one member state
    in all other member states. The Regulation applies to orders of courts and
    tribunals of any nature, save that it specifically excludes revenue, customs
    and administrative law matters. It also does not apply to orders pertaining
    to matrimonial relationships, wills, succession, bankruptcy, social security
    or arbitration. Judicial decisions on the Regulation by the Court of Justice
    of the European Union (CJEU) are binding on member states.





    also

    an article from 2014 about M%) using UK debt collectors to go after Northern Ireland Drivers

    http://www.thejournal.ie/debt-collectors-m50-toll-evaders-1679184-Sep2014/


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,704 ✭✭✭✭RayCun


    Do people think that collecting debts internationally is always impossible, or is it that they think toll debts are a special, impossible case?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,922 ✭✭✭GM228


    Court judgements for debt collection in any EU member state are recognised and enforceable in any other EU member state (except Denmark).


  • Moderators, Music Moderators Posts: 10,668 Mod ✭✭✭✭humberklog


    Sit it out and wait for Brexit.

    OP I'd pop up a thread on the Legal Discussion forum for some info and advice.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,473 ✭✭✭robtri


    humberklog wrote: »
    Sit it out and wait for Brexit.

    OP I'd pop up a thread on the Legal Discussion forum for some info and advice.
    why? its enforceable... whats to discuss


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,430 ✭✭✭bladespin


    Sleeper12 wrote:
    They get a judgment against you.

    This, have they ever been successful? Or even followed it through with a non domestic?

    MasteryDarts Ireland - Master your game!



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11 LUDublin


    robtri wrote: »
    where do you reside??
    Officially in the North but I'm in the south a lot with work. All my details are in the North though.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 32,688 ✭✭✭✭ytpe2r5bxkn0c1


    LUDublin wrote: »
    That's what I was thinking. I just can't see how they can enforce any of their threats with a UK driver.
    Since 2008 they employ a Europe wide collection agency and can, and do, summons debtors in any jurisdiction they wish.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,283 ✭✭✭...And Justice


    From experience of a similar amount I was charged for non payment (I genuinely forgot, I use the M50 once a year) they don't take any shíte sob stories anymore. They halved the €120 I owed them once I agreed to sign up for a video account there and then on the phone, if I didn't they were going to keep adding the charges until it racked up to a court appearance.

    I signed up there and then, now I see the odd eflow bill on my debit card every now and again and then and it doesn't bother me. I just know I've used it and forgot about it.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11 LUDublin


    humberklog wrote: »
    Sit it out and wait for Brexit.

    OP I'd pop up a thread on the Legal Discussion forum for some info and advice.
    Thanks for the advice regarding posting on the legal forum.

    The links that people have posted regarding chasing UK drivers for unpaid tolls I've seen them before. The thing is that I've yet to hear of one UK person actually having anything done to them for unpaid M50 tolls. There's a lot of talk about going after them online but I can't find one example of this actually happening. I'd imagine that I'm not the only UK driver in this situation and I've yet to hear of Debt collectors or anyone like that going to a UK court to get a judgement against someone. Surely if this was something they could/would do then they'd do it as there could be thousands of euros to be collected.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,190 ✭✭✭✭Sleeper12


    bladespin wrote:
    This, have they ever been successful? Or even followed it through with a non domestic?

    I believe so yes.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11 LUDublin


    RayCun wrote: »
    Do people think that collecting debts internationally is always impossible, or is it that they think toll debts are a special, impossible case?
    No I don't think it is impossible to collect debts from other countries. Do you actually have an example of this happening as like I said in my previous post I'm sure I'm not the only one and I haven't heard of any UK court cases for m50 tolls. No one seems to have an example of this taking place which was my point. If they were seizing UK cars I'm sure it would be newsworthy. It makes in onto the news when it happens with cars registered in Dublin so if it was happening in the north it would be newsworthy.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,704 ✭✭✭✭RayCun


    LUDublin wrote: »
    No I don't think it is impossible to collect debts from other countries.

    Then why do you think it can't happen in this case? What makes this debt different?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,704 ✭✭✭✭RayCun


    The seizure of dozens of cars over the space of years made a single dublin news story. How often do you see news stories about goods being seized for debt, other than family homes?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11 LUDublin


    RayCun wrote: »
    The seizure of dozens of cars over the space of years made a single dublin news story. How often do you see news stories about goods being seized for debt, other than family homes?
    My point is that if someone in the North was brought to court for not paying M50 tolls it would be in the news as it would be a big story. There still isn't an example of anyone from the north having matters taken any further than a solicitors letter. The solicitors are based in Kerry by the way.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 18,268 ✭✭✭✭uck51js9zml2yt


    What made you think you didnt need to pay the toll initiall?

    Its very easy for them to get a judgement against you in NI and request an NI based reclaimation agent to seize the car.
    `
    I suppose you also think its OK to speed with impunity on the M1!!!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 32,688 ✭✭✭✭ytpe2r5bxkn0c1


    LUDublin wrote: »
    My point is that if someone in the North was brought to court for not paying M50 tolls it would be in the news as it would be a big story. There still isn't an example of anyone from the north having matters taken any further than a solicitors letter. The solicitors are based in Kerry by the way.

    You are seriously deluded to imagine it would be newsworthy, let alone a big story.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 214 ✭✭Delacent


    LUDublin wrote: »
    My point is that if someone in the North was brought to court for not paying M50 tolls it would be in the news as it would be a big story. There still isn't an example of anyone from the north having matters taken any further than a solicitors letter. The solicitors are based in Kerry by the way.

    You really think that a debt judgement would make news?

    Seriously?????!!!


    This hassle for avoidance of a few quid?

    The stupidity of it is amazing.

    And yes, solicitors are in Kerry - if not sorted it goes to uk debt collection and the solicitors letter with another few hundred added will be UK based.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,430 ✭✭✭bladespin


    Sleeper12 wrote:
    I believe so yes.

    Any links?

    MasteryDarts Ireland - Master your game!



  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,297 ✭✭✭✭Jawgap


    LUDublin wrote: »
    Thanks for your reply.

    One of my concerns was if there was a Garda checkpoint could they seize the car but as you said the Garda wouldn't know anything about it.

    I had heard of people having their cars seized although I was wondering if they could still seize my car if it is registered up North. The Garda wouldn't be able to collect it from the North I'd imagine.

    I know what you mean by the "deemed contract" although I would wonder how it would ever get to court. I know there is various articles about Northern drivers being pursued by I haven't heard of anything happen to a Northern or UK driver apart from the solicitor's letter.

    Your situation seems awful and it's crazy that they'd bill you 800 euros for 4 tolls.

    In summary I'm just trying to find out will my credit rating actually be affected and is there any way they can seize a UK registered car. I know they threaten to do this all the time however I've never actually heard of this happening to someone from the UK.

    Your credit rating will likely be affected if they sell the debt to an agency who get a judgment registered against you in a UK court. Even if you subsequently pay off the debt and have any order discharged the fact one was registered against you will probably make it much more difficult to get credit in future.

    Guards can't seize the car as this is a civil matter. But a bailiff could, on foot of a court order.

    ......should've paid the tolls ;)


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,020 ✭✭✭xabi


    Just pay what you owe, Christ almighty


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