Mineral sampling

Username John

Hello,

Thinking about getting bloods done on a few lambs to see what the mineral situation looks like.
I am fairly sure we are very low in cobalt, buts it's never been proven as such. But there might be other minerals we could do with supplementing as well...

So - am wondering when is the best time for this?

It would be ewe lambs I'd be blooding. They're on (bare) grass at the minute getting a shake of ration...

I assume they could be tested anytime? or do people normally test in springtime when they only on grass?

Thanks...

ganmo

Username John wrote: »

Hello,

Thinking about getting bloods done on a few lambs to see what the mineral situation looks like.
I am fairly sure we are very low in cobalt, buts it's never been proven as such. But there might be other minerals we could do with supplementing as well...

So - am wondering when is the best time for this?

It would be ewe lambs I'd be blooding. They're on (bare) grass at the minute getting a shake of ration...

I assume they could be tested anytime? or do people normally test in springtime when they only on grass?

Thanks...

if it was me i'd be testing the grass, not sure of the cost relative to the blood sample.

test for cobalt, selenium, iodine, copper, molybdenum and zinc

AntrimGlens

UJohn,
Just make sure they're not pregnant or have recently given birth, unlikely as you say they're ewe lambs. I sampled my own and always did them in september, before they were likely to get a bolus and obviously before going to the ram.
I wanted selenium and iodine results mainly, i'd be in a fairly low selenium area.
Selenium levels were so low that aswell as the bolus i had to bring them in every weekend for four weeks and pour straight iodine onto their backs.

Was getting an empty rate of up to 10% and throwing Crystalyx buckets at them before i got them sampled and now they get a bolus twice a year and empty rate would be less than 2% and haven't bought a crystalyx bucket in three years.

a cheap way of diagnosing problems before throwing money in the dark.

Username John

ganmo wrote: »

if it was me i'd be testing the grass, not sure of the cost relative to the blood sample.

test for cobalt, selenium, iodine, copper, molybdenum and zinc

But I'd have a mix of grass - as in some new reseeds, some very old ground...

Would you take a bit of each field and mix it up and send it off?

I'm more inclined to go the blood route first, see what that shows up before I go looking at the grass to be honest...

Not saying you're wrong, just my own preference...

Green farmer

If their eating any ration would that not skew the results ?

ganmo

Green farmer wrote: »

If their eating any ration would that not skew the results ?

it would

emm the reason i say not to blood sample is that there are so many mechanisms in the body to hide minor deficiencies (copper and iodine esp).
the variability in the ground could be an issue alright but once the soil type doesnt change or it theres a river it shouldn't be that big an issue. check out the sôil map to see if theres a change

Username John

Green farmer wrote: »

If their eating any ration would that not skew the results ?

Yeah - that's why I was wondering if leaving it til springtime and they on grass only would be better...

But, at the same time, I don't want to leave too long...

They look like they could do with something... but maybe that something is just grass

Green farmer

Would the indept mineral soil test be more accurate ? Or tell you the information needed. Don't know about cobalt but One I got done here told me about magnesium , calcium, copper, zinc, manganese, and boron ? Just waiting for advisor to Interpet them for me .

ganmo

Green farmer wrote: »

Would the indept mineral soil test be more accurate ? Or tell you the information needed. Don't know about cobalt but One I got done here told me about magnesium , calcium, copper, zinc, manganese, and boron ? Just waiting for advisor to Interpet them for me .

It's better than the blood test imo. The thinking behind goin for the herbage test is that it's closer to the animal than the soil test.
Imo there's no point in testing for copper without molybdenum.

Green farmer

ganmo wrote: »

It's better than the blood test imo. The thinking behind goin for the herbage test is that it's closer to the animal than the soil test.
Imo there's no point in testing for copper without molybdenum.

What's a Herbage test Ganmo ? Is it sending off grass clippings ?

ganmo

Green farmer wrote: »

What's a Herbage test Ganmo ? Is it sending off grass clippings ?

yup

Green farmer

With cobalt, is everywhere naturally low on it ? Or are there certain types of land that would be high ? You've slightly sloping / dry land, John ?

Username John

Green farmer wrote: »

With cobalt, is everywhere naturally low on it ? Or are there certain types of land that would be high ? You've slightly sloping / dry land, John ?

I don't know - I just know we seem low in cobalt. You can see the ears get very scale-y and the wool a bit wire-y in em without it...

Username John

So - see attached two soil reports...

I got these last autumn, I did some googling I suppose on what they say...

But can someone interpret what they mean for me, and for me sheeps, who have to eat the grass that comes outa these fields...

Username John

Second attachment

Green farmer

all I can tell you is my soil tests came back with low ph like your first two and I've lime ordered to spread next week. That's what I'm startin with anyway.

Ard_MC

Username John wrote: »

So - see attached two soil reports...

I got these last autumn, I did some googling I suppose on what they say...

But can someone interpret what they mean for me, and for me sheeps, who have to eat the grass that comes outa these fields...

You need lime and P. I think. After that, i couldn't tell you.

Username John

Ard_MC wrote: »

You need lime and P. I think. After that, i couldn't tell you.

Yeah - working on those...

Would like to put out more P, but it's expensive and I don't have dung / slurry, so it's all chemical P... which means $$$

As for the lime - the field which has very low pH, has gotten a few bags of gran lime last year. I have a soil sample taken, to see what effect the gran lime has... (the soil sample is still sitting in a bag, must send it off)

I'd like to see how much the pH has changed... then work out how many more bags of gran lime I need

rangler1

Username John wrote: »

Yeah - working on those...

Would like to put out more P, but it's expensive and I don't have dung / slurry, so it's all chemical P... which means $$$

As for the lime - the field which has very low pH, has gotten a few bags of gran lime last year. I have a soil sample taken, to see what effect the gran lime has... (the soil sample is still sitting in a bag, must send it off)

I'd like to see how much the pH has changed... then work out how many more bags of gran lime I need

It's supposed to be 2 bags lime/acre/year to raise Ph and 1 bag/acre/year to maintain, how much did you spread per acre,
ph won't stay up long with gran lime.
New grass varieties won't survive low fertility, especally phosphate, get the indexes right before any reseeding

Green farmer

At 5.2 not too sure how much gran lime would do. Tried a few bags here last year and did nothing for it, so going the full hog now. Hoping it'll turn my fields inside out.

Username John

rangler1 wrote: »

It's supposed to be 2 bags lime/acre/year to raise Ph and 1 bag/acre/year to maintain, how much did you spread per acre,
ph won't stay up long with gran lime.
New grass varieties won't survive low fertility, especally phosphate, get the indexes right before any reseeding

Reclaimed ground - first time it's ever had grass I'd say Rangler... at least in anyone's memory that's alive...

So the soil test gets done after being cleared, go heavy with the 10-10-20 at seeding and then try to get as much fertiliser on as I can put after that...

Plus, to make it worse, some ground can be spread with small tractor and spreader but it would be too high for a lime spreader, and more of it is a spread-by-bucket job...

I know the gran lime is a constant short term job, so am weighing up getting some ground lime and spreading it by hand...

Fcuk it - I love hardship too don't I...

Username John

Green farmer wrote: »

At 5.2 not too sure how much gran lime would do. Tried a few bags here last year and did nothing for it, so going the full hog now. Hoping it'll turn my fields inside out.

I kinda agree with you - I'm maybe trying to put off the task of spreading a few ton of lime with shovel

But I think you're right... I'll have to get a few ton of lime, and nice new shovel and just occupy my summer evenings

Green farmer

Username John wrote: »

Plus, to make it worse, some ground can be spread with small tractor and spreader but it would be too high for a lime spreader, and more of it is a spread-by-bucket job...


Fcuk it - I love hardship too don't I...

You didn't see Adam Henson on country file last week, visiting a nz farm with hilly land ?

Username John

Green farmer wrote: »

You didn't see Adam Henson on country file last week, visiting a nz farm with hilly land ?

Nope, gave up watching it - Adams farm was the only bit I liked, but all the other things put me off...

Am sure there is some funky machine out there that might do my job, but I don't think I'd be able to get em

My local contractor to be fair, spread the last place we reseeded with a quad, and it was fairly dodgy doing that... I won't be asking him to go in there on slippery grass - so that field will definitely be a bucket-spread job...

rangler1

Username John wrote: »

Reclaimed ground - first time it's ever had grass I'd say Rangler... at least in anyone's memory that's alive...

So the soil test gets done after being cleared, go heavy with the 10-10-20 at seeding and then try to get as much fertiliser on as I can put after that...

Plus, to make it worse, some ground can be spread with small tractor and spreader but it would be too high for a lime spreader, and more of it is a spread-by-bucket job...

I know the gran lime is a constant short term job, so am weighing up getting some ground lime and spreading it by hand...

Fcuk it - I love hardship too don't I...

I got good results with 2 bags granlime, got PH up .5 and you could see where i missed, lime is supposed to release nitrogen,
You kinda have the perfect storm there in that both lime and phosphorous deficiency floors grass growth, probably needs organic matter too, but nitrogen sorta solves that

Username John

rangler1 wrote: »

I got good results with 2 bags granlime, got PH up .5 and you could see where i missed, lime is supposed to release nitrogen,
You kinda have the perfect storm there in that both lime and phosphorous deficiency floors grass growth, probably needs organic matter too, but nitrogen sorta solves that

Yeah, it's got a few bags of gran line last year, and 10-10-20 to raise the P...

It's looking better this year - but I can tell that it lacking in P from the spring growth... the grass is there, but it's kinda hungry looking...

I'd love to get more fertiliser on it to be honest Rangler, but as I said above, it's down to $$$

rangler1

Username John wrote: »

Yeah, it's got a few bags of gran line last year, and 10-10-20 to raise the P...

It's looking better this year - but I can tell that it lacking in P from the spring growth... the grass is there, but it's kinda hungry looking...

I'd love to get more fertiliser on it to be honest Rangler, but as I said above, it's down to $$$

you can buy phosphorous on it's own, there's probably enough potash in the soil when you're not cutting it, you should target the phosphorus.
I don't what it costs, but if its 16% P at an economic price, it might be worth atry

ganmo

What was on the ground before you reclaimed it?

The trace element analysis looks ok, but why no molybdenum analysis?

Username John

rangler1 wrote: »

you can buy phosphorous on it's own, there's probably enough potash in the soil when you're not cutting it, you should target the phosphorus.
I don't what it costs, but if its 16% P at an economic price, it might be worth atry

You mean 0-16-0?

I spread it before, and it did a good job. But I found that 10-10-20 was a better buy...
I know it doesn't have as much P, but my ground could do with K as well...

So I thought the 10-10-20 a better buy. From memory, there wasn't a big difference in price between the two... I could be wrong to say that though, was a few years ago when I spread the 0-16-0...

Username John

ganmo wrote: »

What was on the ground before you reclaimed it?

The trace element analysis looks ok, but why no molybdenum analysis?

What was growing there you mean?

A lovely crop of briars and ferns... one to be proud of plus some blackthorn mixed in to make it more hateful...

Why no molybdenum - I have no idea to be honest Ganmo.

rangler1

Username John wrote: »

You mean 0-16-0?

I spread it before, and it did a good job. But I found that 10-10-20 was a better buy...
I know it doesn't have as much P, but my ground could do with K as well...

So I thought the 10-10-20 a better buy. From memory, there wasn't a big difference in price between the two... I could be wrong to say that though, was a few years ago when I spread the 0-16-0...

at similar price it wouldn't be value, just a thought.
P is supposed to be running out, getting scarce, probably why the 6 units of P is as dear as the N and K in 10 10 20

Username John

ganmo wrote: »

What was on the ground before you reclaimed it?

The trace element analysis looks ok, but why no molybdenum analysis?

The results that are very high in manganese - why would this be?

When we were reclaiming, we found a place where the stones were as black as coal, and the earth all round the same... they almost had a burnt type appearance... I thought it odd at the time, but no one knew why they were like this..

I forgot til I just happened to spot the high manganese there now - but maybe the two have nothing to do with each other

ganmo

Username John wrote: »

What was growing there you mean?

A lovely crop of briars and ferns... one to be proud of plus some blackthorn mixed in to make it more hateful...

Why no molybdenum - I have no idea to be honest Ganmo.

Molybdenum locks up copper, so if mo is high you need copper to be way higher.

Username John

rangler1 wrote: »

at similar price it wouldn't be value, just a thought.
P is supposed to be running out, getting scarce, probably why the 6 units of P is as dear as the N and K in 10 10 20

No, all thoughts gratefully received...

Yeah, P seems to be the dear one all right - acourse like

Green farmer

Found this online , might be helpfull

Username John

Green farmer wrote: »

Found this online , might be helpfull

I just need to by ground lime and a shovel don't I

Green farmer

Unfortunitily yep, Looking at the chart it might suggest how your manganese is still remains high at the low ph level. I'm guessing all you need is lime ok, but I'm only getting it spread for the first time ever here, so I'll let you know what difference it makes.

greysides

Username John wrote: »

I am fairly sure we are very low in cobalt, buts it's never been proven as such.

High soil manganese prevents uptake of cobalt by herbage and can thereby cause cobalt deficiency.

razor8

greysides wrote: »

High soil manganese prevents uptake of cobalt by herbage and can thereby cause cobalt deficiency.

Would that mean ewes would be less likely to take grass tetany because of high manganese

ganmo

razor8 wrote: »

Would that mean ewes would be less likely to take grass tetany because of high manganese

grass tetany is lack of magnesium

manganese is a different element

Green farmer

Hope you don't mind me sidetracking thread John, but got the 2T /acre lime spread here. Anyone know how long before I'd see an improvement in grass from a low starting point ? Will it kill of moss in field ?

ganmo

Green farmer wrote: »

Hope you don't mind me sidetracking thread John, but got the 2T /acre lime spread here. Anyone know how long before I'd see an improvement in grass from a low starting point ? Will it kill of moss in field ?

it'll help but the best thing for the moss is ferrous sulphate. it works in a few days

razor8

Green farmer wrote: »

Hope you don't mind me sidetracking thread John, but got the 2T /acre lime spread here. Anyone know how long before I'd see an improvement in grass from a low starting point ? Will it kill of moss in field ?

IME you will see a initial boost from the nitrogen in it and then you'll see a noticeable difference after 6 months and it will max out at 12 months

I started from a very low base here and it took the second spread two years after first to see a real change

Green farmer

ganmo wrote: »

it'll help but the best thing for the moss is ferrous sulphate. it works in a few days

Ah gamno, just goggled it. Said was used to lower ph, want to go the other way . 😊

Green farmer

razor8 wrote: »

IME you will see a initial boost from the nitrogen in it and then you'll see a noticeable difference after 6 months and it will max out at 12 months

I started from a very low base here and it took the second spread two years after first to see a real change

The fields I did here were 5.5 and 5.8 and haven't been done in living memory, so hoping to get a good boost. Going to put in as much p&k's as I can afford to keep it going. Cannt be any worse then pre liming anyway .

ganmo

Green farmer wrote: »

The fields I did here were 5.5 and 5.8 and haven't been done in living memory, so hoping to get a good boost. Going to put in as much p&k's as I can afford to keep it going. Cannt be any worse then pre liming anyway .

just sprinkle it on the moss patches, one bag goes a long way

Username John

Threw out some gran lime on that field that was pH 5.2 when tested last year...

It'll get ground lime in a few months - when the evenings are brighter and I have more time to be at it...

But thought the gran lime might help get a bit more grass growing in the short term... we'll see I guess

Grass isn't too bad on it, the little bit of urea earlier helped I think - even if it wasn't utilised efficiently due to low pH and P...
Edit : you can see in the pic, where I didn't go close enough to the headland, and it doesn't have the same growth...

Lambman

Username John wrote: »

Threw out some gran lime on that field that was pH 5.2 when tested last year...

It'll get ground lime in a few months - when the evenings are brighter and I have more time to be at it...

But thought the gran lime might help get a bit more grass growing in the short term... we'll see I guess

Grass isn't too bad on it, the little bit of urea earlier helped I think - even if it wasn't utilised efficiently due to low pH and P...
Edit : you can see in the pic, where I didn't go close enough to the headland, and it doesn't have the same growth...

Looking well but not a fan of urea gives u great green grass early but at what cost till the ground?? Always find land that had had urea early never grew like it should rest off year just my opinion.

Username John

Lambman wrote: »

Looking well but not a fan of urea gives u great green grass early but at what cost till the ground?? Always find land that had had urea early never grew like it should rest off year just my opinion.

I'll get back to you

Although that field now is low on everything so will be getting a good dose of fertiliser this year...

Green farmer

I see what you mean by gradient now John, but still a nice clean looking field.

Username John

See pic of an organic fertiliser I found - I don't have a price yet, so it could be mad expensive...

But before I ring, I wanted to check something...

Edit : Based on that analysis, the NPK per ton is 40-80-180, or 1-2-4.5 per 50kg (if I am comparing cost to lets say bags of 0-16-0)

Edit :
Given it has apparently 87kg Calcium / ton - any idea how this would improve the pH of soil? Am trying to work out how much lime would be needed along with this to raise pH. How much Calcium is in a ton of ground lime?

http://www.gouldings.ie/our-products/fertiliser/gran-lime/
That page lists granlime is 38% Calcium...